The Real Consequences of Atheism

Insulting to whom? The author is an atheist. Unless I posted the article giving commentary on the atheist's comments. It's been so long I can't recall...



To atheists to imply that they do not have morals, whether he himself is an atheist or not. It's a pretty extreme article and is why some of the atheists even doubt it's a true atheist who wrote it. I'm just saying that the respect metre is blinking in the red on both sides. I comprehend both points of view even though I might not agree.
 
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But about everyone christian, in particular. Perhaps you don't see how insulting you are to refer to anyone's religious texts as "babble." I would not disrespect you, you should disrespect anyone else, esp. if your family remains christian. How are you to judge when you used to be a christian? That's like saying, "I don't like blue people, they're stupid because they think this way," and you're teal now. Do you speak about any christian family you have in such ways?

I am not the one to tell anyone not to communicate their beliefs/non-beliefs. Believe me, I've had countless run-ins on CF and accusations of "evil," however, it's quite clear you are emotionally charged about your religious shift. It's not necessary. I hear you. Maybe you should remove the emotionalism and stop generalizing? It's highly insulting, even to me. Just plain don't insult. It's called "the bible" and writing it as "the bible" doesn't mean that you are forced to believe in it. You are not. Do unto others...and that's an objective morality.


THIS. :yep:...
 
To atheists to imply that they do not have morals, whether he himself is an atheist or not. It's a pretty extreme article and is why some of the atheists even doubt it's a true atheist who wrote it. I'm just saying that the respect metre is blinking in the red on both sides. I comprehend both points of view even though I might not agree.

JB, I saw it as a calling out from one atheist to others about the reality of espousing moral subjectivism. There are more atheists who hold to subjective morality or moral relativism than objective.
 
But about everyone christian, in particular. Perhaps you don't see how insulting you are to refer to anyone's religious texts as "babble." I would not disrespect you, you should not disrespect anyone else, esp. if your family remains christian. How are you to judge when you used to be a christian? That's like saying, "I don't like blue people, they're stupid because they think this way," and you're teal now. Do you speak about any christian family you have in such ways?

I am not the one to tell anyone not to communicate their beliefs/non-beliefs. Believe me, I've had countless run-ins on CF and accusations of "evil," however, it's quite clear you are emotionally charged about your religious shift. It's not necessary. I hear you. Maybe you should remove the emotionalism and stop generalizing? It's highly insulting, even to me. Just plain don't insult. It's called "the bible" and writing it as "the bible" doesn't mean that you are forced to believe in it. You are not. Do unto others...and that's an objective morality.

As a former "bathed in the blood", born again christian, I have to agree. We can have a respectful discussion without the insults. Do unto others, indeed.
 
momi, I recently read a very interesting article about a scientist who converted from atheism to Christianity. He discussed the human eye, and how the amount of time needed just for the human eye to form and function as it does would've taken more time than the evolutionary timeline would allow. It was very fascinating! A book that I enjoyed reading while in college was Michael Behe's "Darwin's Black Box" which talks about irreducible complexity:

Yes ma'am. Irreducible complexity and the law of fine tuning are excellent examples of God's existence!
 
But about everyone christian, in particular. Perhaps you don't see how insulting you are to refer to anyone's religious texts as "babble." I would not disrespect you, you should not disrespect anyone else, esp. if your family remains christian. How are you to judge when you used to be a christian? That's like saying, "I don't like blue people, they're stupid because they think this way," and you're teal now. Do you speak about any christian family you have in such ways?

I am not the one to tell anyone not to communicate their beliefs/non-beliefs. Believe me, I've had countless run-ins on CF and accusations of "evil," however, it's quite clear you are emotionally charged about your religious shift. It's not necessary. I hear you. Maybe you should remove the emotionalism and stop generalizing? It's highly insulting, even to me. Just plain don't insult. It's called "the bible" and writing it as "the bible" doesn't mean that you are forced to believe in it. You are not. Do unto others...and that's an objective morality.

JaneBond007 My mother and I have wonderful Conversations about the babble she doesn't care what I call it.

It's just text to me, I don't hold it any higher reguard than I do a harry potter book.

that should not have any effect on how you feel about that book.
 
I'm not understanding your reasoning here and can't imagine that I ever will. Anyone who ignores the obvious evidence of an Intelligent Designer chooses to do so willingly and to their own detriment. If a person chooses to ignore miracles that are clearly seen like childbirth, sunrises, DNA, fingerprints, blood coagulation, monthly cycles.... there isn't anything I can offer but prayer.

momi what do you mean by, "to your own detriment"?

if we are intelligently designed why did the god of the OT screw up when he made the penis?
 
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@JaneBond007 My mother and I have wonderful Conversations about the babble she doesn't care what I call it.

It's just text to me, I don't hold it any higher reguard than I do a harry potter book.

that should not have any effect on how you feel about that book.


It's just text to you but I'm not your mother. At your office, important manuals might be crap to you but I bet you won't refer to it that way to your boss. You know exactly what we are talking about. If you wish to receive respect, learn to give it. It'd make for a better discussion and a fair one at that. Make this level playing ground. Saying "the bible" won't kill you. Reason I say this, you don't realize just how emotionally angry you sound yourself. It's over the top, actually, and it reveals a whole lot about you. I might not read the Bhagavad Gita but I was raised in my culture to respect the beliefs of others and that means that I would never refer to it as "babble," certainly not to the face of it's follower if I wanted to be seen as a respectful person.
 
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It's just text to you but I'm not your mother. At your office, important manuals might be crap to you but I bet you won't refer to it that way to your boss. You know exactly what we are talking about. If you wish to receive respect, learn to give it. It'd make for a better discussion and a fair one at that. Make this level playing ground. Saying "the bible" won't kill you. Reason I say this, you don't realize just how emotionally angry you sound yourself. It's over the top, actually, and it reveals a whole lot about you. I might not read the Bhagavad Gita but I was raised in my culture to respect the beliefs of others and that means that I would never refer to it as "babble," certainly not to the face of it's follower if I wanted to be seen as a respectful person.

JaneBond007

You suggested that my Christian family would be upset with the term babble. Therefore I said My mother doesn't care what i call it

Now you mention an Office, well I run my own business, I have no use for that book in my business. and I have no Sacred Manuals
MY Calling it a "babble" won't kill you either.

I am not angry, far from it. I think this is silly, my words don't effect your feelings for that book, but some how if I don't give it the proper reverence you feel I should have for IT, I am angry. but you seem upset by that.

but I am not angry and I hope you are having a great day:yep:
 
@JaneBond007

You suggested that my Christian family would be upset with the term babble. Therefore I said My mother doesn't care what i call it

Now you mention an Office, well I run my own business, I have no use for that book in my business. and I have no Sacred Manuals
MY Calling it a "babble" won't kill you either.

I am not angry, far from it. I think this is silly, my words don't effect your feelings for that book, but some how if I don't give it the proper reverence you feel I should have for IT, I am angry. but you seem upset by that.

but I am not angry and I hope you are having a great day:yep:


Basically, I'm asking if you are disrespectful with your christian family by saying anything nasty about what they value. If not, great. However, you have to know your audience. I'm not upset, I'm finding the respectful balance here. It's not only me who notices. I mean, I had some questions about Ratzinger (when he was Cardinal and after becoming Pope Benedict XVI) but you know, I never fired off a nasty letter to him either. :lol: Thanks for the explanation, I truly appreciate it.
PS. And believe you me, I've had people buck out eyes and proclaim, "Chutzpah!" about what I say ahaha and it's nowhere here in this forum.
 
momi what do you mean by, "to your own detriment"?

if we are intelligently designed why did the god of the OT screw up when he made the penis?

To your own detriment you have chosen to deny the Creator of our Universe - one day you will meet Him and He will have to deny you. The Bible speaks about a gnashing of teeth in hell which is a deep regret for having rejected the truth.

I truly do not want that for you and Jesus said He does not desire for anyone to perish - but ultimately the choice is ours.
 
It boggles the mind, the effort it takes someone to disprove something they don't' even believe exists in the first place.

Laela atheist are not trying to "disprove" anything
Atheist simply reject the assertion that a god exist.

The burden of Proof is not on the atheist.

If I tell you I just got a new car, it would make no sense if I looked at you and said, Now Prove I have a new Car.

The burden of proof would be on me to prove to you, I got the car. Not the other way around.

Theist say, a god exist
atheist say, ok Prove it.
that's it
 
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Not at all, Enyo. The evil actions of Joseph Stalin, Pol Pot, et al should be evaluated as evil actions in and of themselves. I don't need to point out any other group in order to condemn the evil actions of atheistic Communist regimes or persons. Likewise, when I see an instance of a Christian or Christian society sinning, I condemn it as well. A Christian who commits mortal sin is in danger of Hell. The atheists in this thread are arguing that they can be good without God and live in moral, peaceful societies. I simply pointed out that it's not true, because we have real life examples of atheists and atheist-run governments committing evil. Both the sinning Christian and sinning atheist are wrong. And I can judge *both* to be wrong because there is an objective moral standard by which to judge both of them.
Lol I know how to cook healthy meals and realize I should eat them more often. But I never do because I don't want to. Saying I can't possibly know how to make a veggie dish or that I am ignorant about health just based on my actions is silly. It doesn't suit my agenda of wanting to eat fatty foods, so I don't do it. Lots of atheist who commit detrimental actions know they are wrong just like religious people do.

Annnnd, once again, how do you explain why there are so many religious countries that are violent and unstable and so many completely secular ones that have an extremely high quality of life?

Like someone else said, just because you say something does not make it true. You have given absolutely no real evidence of anything. Just the whole bunch of opinions and I don't find that to be acceptable.
 
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@Laela atheist are not trying to "disprove" anything
Atheist simply reject the assertion that a god exist.

The burden of Proof is not on the atheist.

If I tell you I just got a new car, it would make no sense if I looked at you and said, Now Prove I have a new Car.

The burden of proof would be on me to prove to you, I got the car. Not the other way around.

Theist say, a god exist
atheist say, ok Prove it.
that's it

I agree. I have no desire to disprove god. I just have no proof that there is a god. And please don't point me to the bible. A good proof has multiple sources.
 
I agree. I have no desire to disprove god. I just have no proof that there is a god. And please don't point me to the bible. A good proof has multiple sources.

Can in ask you a question? At what point did you become an atheist? Were you raised in church or attended church at some point but later became an atheist? Or have you been an atheist as long as you could remember? Just curious.
 
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Can in ask you a question? At what point did you become an atheist? Were you raised in church or attended church at some point but later became an atheist? Or have you been an atheist as long as you could remember? Just curious.

I was raised christian, acepted Jesus and was baptised in my mid-teens. In my late teens, the reality of the bible being sexist, racist, violent, mysgonistic, started me asking questions. My questions lead to researching the origins of Jesus and Christianity. The answers lead to more questions the most important of which was..................why was Christianity basically a recycling of an older more ancient religion called Zorastorism and why did it share so many commonalities with other ancient religions. If what Christanity espouses as truth, that Jesus is the Son of GOD and he is the way, the truth and the light, then why do so many other religions that came before say basically the same thing? Nothing in chrisitanity is original - the virgin birth, the rising from the dead, the trinity - none of it is original. Why?

When I couldn't get any good answersfrom my pastor or his co-horts, I decided that I could not give my life over to a belief that I could not believe in.

Simple, right? LOL!
 
I was raised christian, acepted Jesus and was baptised in my mid-teens. In my late teens, the reality of the bible being sexist, racist, violent, mysgonistic, started me asking questions. My questions lead to researching the origins of Jesus and Christianity. The answers lead to more questions the most important of which was..................why was Christianity basically a recycling of an older more ancient religion called Zorastorism and why did it share so many commonalities with other ancient religions. If what Christanity espouses as truth, that Jesus is the Son of GOD and he is the way, the truth and the light, then why do so many other religions that came before say basically the same thing? Nothing in chrisitanity is original - the virgin birth, the rising from the dead, the trinity - none of it is original. Why?

When I couldn't get any good answersfrom my pastor or his co-horts, I decided that I could not give my life over to a belief that I could not believe in.

Simple, right? LOL!

Thank you:-) I have found that many atheist and agnostics in the black community grew up in church. I was just wondering.
 
Lol I know how to cook healthy meals and realize I should eat them more often. But I never do because I don't want to.

:lol: tell me about it. Sometimes what we know we ought to do--and what we actually do--are two different things.

Saying I can't possibly know how to make a veggie dish or that I am ignorant about health just based on my actions is silly.

I agree. My argument isn't that atheists don't know what morality is. My argument is that when the atheist denies objective morality, it creates an issue for his/her moral worldview, because then he must look inside himself to come up with a moral code (subjectivity). And if he determines what's right and wrong based on his subjective judgment, then whenever he commits an objectively evil act, he may subjectively judge it as good or not-evil. He would be in error for this.

I think there is a core morality that's written on all our hearts no matter who we are. However, the FULLNESS of moral truth has been given to us by God. So while an atheist can agree with me murder is wrong, his morality falls into error when he advocates abortion (murder of the unborn).

Lots of atheist who commit detrimental actions know they are wrong just like religious people do.

Agreed. Both religious and non-religious people commit sin because they simply choose to. Mostly, both groups do it out of weakness, and some of them (from both groups) do it out of malice.

Annnnd, once again, how do you explain why there are so many religious countries that are violent and unstable and so many completely secular ones that have an extremely high quality of life?

This question meshes a few things together. I assume by quality of life you mean health, home, education, freedom, recourse to a civil justice system, and relative safety/protection. A violent or unstable society can definitely affect quality of life. However, how are you defining "religious country" and "secular country"?

The following is from an online CNN article on the Top 10 Most Unstable Countries:
Afghanistan, Sudan and the Democratic Republic of the Congo also ranked in the top five.


Egypt has been downgraded to "extreme risk" for the first time as a result of violence following the ousting of former President Mohamed Morsy and an increase in terrorist attacks in the Sinai Peninsula, the report said.
Maplecroft warned that Syria, Egypt and Libya are "now so bad" that they will be "mired in exceptionally high levels of dynamic political risk for years to come."


A fall in political violence in the Philippines, India and Uganda has contributed to these countries experiencing the biggest reduction in short-term political risk over the past four years.


Improvements in the level of governance has also helped to lower risk levels in Malaysia and Israel in the same period.


Social unrest
The report said there is a higher chance for social unrest to exacerbate political instability in Bangladesh, Belarus, China, Kazakhstan, Saudi Arabia and Vietnam.


"This is due to the erosion of democratic freedoms, increasing crackdowns on political position and the brutality by security forces towards protesters, compounded by rising food prices and worsening working conditions," Maplecroft said in a statement.


Another concern for foreign investors is that there has been a major increase in oppression by governments worldwide.

A "religious" or religion-friendly government can commit oppression and destabilizing actions, as well as a secular one (such as North Korea, China, etc.)

I think it has more to do with a struggle for power, and the brutal methods to obtain it, as well as war-waging, and the structure of the government and who is running the government. Governments that are headed by a single dictator (North Korea, for example) is going to offer less quality of life than a democracy which is accountable to voters. Heck, the Vatican is a city-state ruled by a religious monarch (Pope Francis) and it is not war-torn or bulldozing people.

So I think several factors come into play, such as the country's size, geographic location, history, culture, wealth/economy, type of government (monarchy, democracy, Communist), etc. It's not a simple matter of "This is all due to religion or lack thereof."

When I spoke earlier of atheist Communist Soviet Russia, it was to reject the stereotype that if you're religious you're automatically evil/violent/hateful and if you're atheist, you're automatically peaceful and a humanitarian. My argument is that we are all fallen and all sinful. The difference between us though is that I have more access to more moral truths, and I have a greater responsibility.
 
I was raised christian, acepted Jesus and was baptised in my mid-teens. In my late teens, the reality of the bible being sexist, racist, violent, mysgonistic, started me asking questions. My questions lead to researching the origins of Jesus and Christianity. The answers lead to more questions the most important of which was..................why was Christianity basically a recycling of an older more ancient religion called Zorastorism and why did it share so many commonalities with other ancient religions. If what Christanity espouses as truth, that Jesus is the Son of GOD and he is the way, the truth and the light, then why do so many other religions that came before say basically the same thing? Nothing in chrisitanity is original - the virgin birth, the rising from the dead, the trinity - none of it is original. Why? When I couldn't get any good answersfrom my pastor or his co-horts, I decided that I could not give my life over to a belief that I could not believe in. Simple, right? LOL!

Man! This parallels my story as well. Only I went through communion and the following year confirmation knowing full well I didn't believe.


telling mother I didn't believe, and during confirmation telling my pastor I didn't believe.

I was told to basically shut up and conform cause you know I was still living under my parents roof. My pastor basically told my brother and I to just state we were agnostic during our final counseling session. He had us meet with him at the same time because we were the only ones in class speaking up and asking questions.

He could see where we heading.

No skin off my back to kneel and repeat some words and drink some manaschevitz (sp).

God is an alien, and we are living under a microscope.
 
[USER=28031]Galadriel[/USER];19916969 said:
:lol: tell me about it. Sometimes what we know we ought to do--and what we actually do--are two different things. I agree. My argument isn't that atheists don't know what morality is. My argument is that when the atheist denies objective morality, it creates an issue for his/her moral worldview, because then he must look inside himself to come up with a moral code (subjectivity). And if he determines what's right and wrong based on his subjective judgment, then whenever he commits an objectively evil act, he may subjectively judge it as good or not-evil. He would be in error for this. I think there is a core morality that's written on all our hearts no matter who we are. However, the FULLNESS of moral truth has been given to us by God. So while an atheist can agree with me murder is wrong, his morality falls into error when he advocates abortion (murder of the unborn). Agreed. Both religious and non-religious people commit sin because they simply choose to. Mostly, both groups do it out of weakness, and some of them (from both groups) do it out of malice. This question meshes a few things together. I assume by quality of life you mean health, home, education, freedom, recourse to a civil justice system, and relative safety/protection. A violent or unstable society can definitely affect quality of life. However, how are you defining "religious country" and "secular country"? The following is from an online CNN article on the Top 10 Most Unstable Countries: A "religious" or religion-friendly government can commit oppression and destabilizing actions, as well as a secular one (such as North Korea, China, etc.) I think it has more to do with a struggle for power, and the brutal methods to obtain it, as well as war-waging, and the structure of the government and who is running the government. Governments that are headed by a single dictator (North Korea, for example) is going to offer less quality of life than a democracy which is accountable to voters. Heck, the Vatican is a city-state ruled by a religious monarch (Pope Francis) and it is not war-torn or bulldozing people. So I think several factors come into play, such as the country's size, geographic location, history, culture, wealth/economy, type of government (monarchy, democracy, Communist), etc. It's not a simple matter of "This is all due to religion or lack thereof." When I spoke earlier of atheist Communist Soviet Russia, it was to reject the stereotype that if you're religious you're automatically evil/violent/hateful and if you're atheist, you're automatically peaceful and a humanitarian. My argument is that we are all fallen and all sinful. The difference between us though is that I have more access to more moral truths, and I have a greater responsibility.

I can't speak for China - I would have to do some research. But for the others former and current Soviet Union and North Korea, I would argue that their leaders (dictators) are idolized as Gods.

Also within Russia they have various orthodox religions Christian Jewish etc in addition to Muslims.

Actually now I am getting confused. The US isn't a theocracy even though there are many here in the US who wish that wasn't the case. So is the US an atheist country? You know because if separation of state and religion?

God is an alien, and we are living under a microscope.
 
I can't speak for China - I would have to do some research. But for the others former and current Soviet Union and North Korea, I would argue that their leaders (dictators) are idolized as Gods.

Also within Russia they have various orthodox religions Christian Jewish etc in addition to Muslims.

Actually now I am getting confused. The US isn't a theocracy even though there are many here in the US who wish that wasn't the case. So is the US an atheist country? You know because if separation of state and religion?

God is an alien, and we are living under a microscope.

I think the U.S. has a secular government, but culturally we tend to be a religious nation. I think the stat is 85% of Americans identify as some form of Christian?
 
To your own detriment you have chosen to deny the Creator of our Universe - one day you will meet Him and He will have to deny you. The Bible speaks about a gnashing of teeth in hell which is a deep regret for having rejected the truth.

I truly do not want that for you and Jesus said He does not desire for anyone to perish - but ultimately the choice is ours.
momi

Ahh the Hell threat
Jews don't believe there is a hell, in fact many Christian faiths don't believe there's hell you go to at death. And their are some Christians that do believe in hell, but don't agree it is a literal place.

So until all the Christians can come to an agreement about whether an actual hell exist or not, I will not be losing any sleep over this utter nonsense. :lol::lachen:

Please don't threaten me with your Dogma
thank you
:yep:
Peace and Love
 
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Man! This parallels my story as well. Only I went through communion and the following year confirmation knowing full well I didn't believe.


telling mother I didn't believe, and during confirmation telling my pastor I didn't believe.

I was told to basically shut up and conform cause you know I was still living under my parents roof. My pastor basically told my brother and I to just state we were agnostic during our final counseling session. He had us meet with him at the same time because we were the only ones in class speaking up and asking questions.

He could see where we heading.

No skin off my back to kneel and repeat some words and drink some manaschevitz (sp).

God is an alien, and we are living under a microscope.

Because you are agnostic, atheist etc., basically, with no faith to believe the religion you were raised in. I get that. But being the only ones in class speaking up and asking questions probably just means the others had faith to understand what they were being taught and they believed in it. Although you didn't say it, I am just pointing to this to say in general that it doesn't mean they didn't have any questions. They were probably knowledgeable and willing to accept what they were supposed to know by confirmation. I'm sure they've had questions since but that doesn't necessarily mean questions about the veracity of the existence of G-d. You're supposed to have questions. People of faith don't have the same questions that agnostice and atheists have. For example, I might question what is allegory vs. literal and parable but won't try and find something that proves there is no G-d or "proves" that the scriptures etc. are fantasy. Faithful and agnostics start at different points.
 
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Because you are agnostic, atheist etc., basically, with no faith to believe the religion you were raised in. I get that. But being the only ones in class speaking up and asking questions probably just means the others had faith to understand what they were being taught and they believed in it. Although you didn't say it, I am just pointing to this to say in general that it doesn't mean they didn't have any questions. They were probably knowledgeable and willing to accept what they were supposed to know by confirmation. I'm sure they've had questions since but that doesn't necessarily mean questions about the veracity of the existence of G-d. You're supposed to have questions. People of faith don't have the same questions that agnostice and atheists have. For example, I might question what is allegory vs. literal and parable but won't try and find something that proves there is no G-d or "proves" that the scriptures etc. are fantasy. Faithful and agnostics start at different points.
Great assumption! My observation/ recollection - The girls were focused in boys and the boys focused on girls. They didn't do any required readings and were generally peeved when we spoke up. Annoyed that we turned in assignments. Then later on started copying our answers. We were already classified as snooty and thought we were better than everyone else because we went to private school and didn't live in the projects or government housing. Yeah you definitely assumed correctly - they had faith and we did not. Knowledgeable? ...

Eta. Didn't read your whole post till after I posted. Our initial pastors didn't talk about allegory or literal, etc. They were a huge disservice to us. Their answer was you just have to believe and have faith. My last pastor explained things much better and was easier to talk to and open to conversation and true discussion.


God is an alien, and we are living under a microscope.
 
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Great assumption! My observation/ recollection - The girls were focused in boys and the boys focused on girls. They didn't do any required readings and were generally peeved when we spoke up. Annoyed that we turned in assignments. Then later on started copying our answers. We were already classified as snooty and thought we were better than everyone else because we went to private school and didn't live in the projects or government housing. Yeah you definitely assumed correctly - they had faith and we did not. Knowledgeable? ...

Eta. Didn't read your whole post till after I posted. Our initial pastors didn't talk about allegory or literal, etc. They were a huge disservice to us. Their answer was you just have to believe and have faith. My last pastor explained things much better and was easier to talk to and open to conversation and true discussion.


God is an alien, and we are living under a microscope.


itsallaboutattitude I think some people interpret having questions as an automatic challenge or put-down, but I wished more people in religious teaching positions would take it as an opportunity to delve into deeper questions. And, if they don't know the answer, they should be honest and then maybe they can research/read/hash it out as a group. :yep:

I didn't grow up Christian, but came in as a convert. I had tons of questions, and it helped that I had patient and knowledgeable Christians to help point me toward theological books, historical research, etc.
 
Great assumption! My observation/ recollection - The girls were focused in boys and the boys focused on girls. They didn't do any required readings and were generally peeved when we spoke up. Annoyed that we turned in assignments. Then later on started copying our answers. We were already classified as snooty and thought we were better than everyone else because we went to private school and didn't live in the projects or government housing. Yeah you definitely assumed correctly - they had faith and we did not. Knowledgeable? ...

Eta. Didn't read your whole post till after I posted. Our initial pastors didn't talk about allegory or literal, etc. They were a huge disservice to us. Their answer was you just have to believe and have faith. My last pastor explained things much better and was easier to talk to and open to conversation and true discussion.


God is an alien, and we are living under a microscope.

Unless I missed your recollection before...I didn't see it. I still think that those who have their minds made up to either believe or not believe/looking for disproof begin at different points. I've often heard people amazed that others do not question things. I think there are diff. personalities that constantly raise questions. But I was trying to say that believers and nonbelievers begin at different starting points. One wants to edify his faith, the other wants proof to show that it's untrue. I'm sure your teacher was under fire lol to keep a certain demeanor, esp. at something important as a confirmation class, for the sake of everyone involved. I don't know if he was a nice guy, but I think it would have been right to take you two out. Why confirm where there is no belief? That's against the faith itself and the humanity of a person. At least they allowed you two to explain it although they knew beforehand. You can't force religion on anybody.
 
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Unless I missed your recollection before...I didn't see it. I still think that those who have their minds made up to either believe or not believe/looking for disproof begin at different points. I've often heard people amazed that others do not question things. I think there are diff. personalities that constantly raise questions. But I was trying to say that believers and nonbelievers begin at different starting points. One wants to edify his faith, the other wants proof to show that it's untrue. I'm sure your teacher was under fire lol to keep a certain demeanor, esp. at something important as a confirmation class, for the sake of everyone involved. I don't know if he was a nice guy, but I think it would have been right to take you two out. Why confirm where there is no belief? That's against the faith itself and the humanity of a person. At least they allowed you two to explain it although they knew beforehand. You can't force religion on anybody.

Just to clarify we went thru first communion with two pastors. Then we went thru confirmation with a different pastor. Confirmation pastor actually studied multiple religions before becoming a Lutheran pastor. He opened my mind to studying other religions.

That's why I usually say religion is a construct of man by men so that men could live together in society. I get it.

Anarchy is few and far between in most societies today.

God is an alien, and we are living under a microscope.
 
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