Pope declares all are saved
- Thread starter Ithacagurl
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MrsHaseeb
Well-Known Member
He was addressing people who don't know Jesus Christ and its his responsibility to make sure that he is preaching the Gospel clearly and that those he's preaching to understand that you can't approach Jesus Christ without repentance. All that redemption stuff means nothing for a person who hasn't repented and been told that that's the way to get to Jesus. The offense was obviously taken over someone deciding to say that what he taught was incorrect and people come to his defense and try to get all technical about meanings of words. Its pointless. A person who hasn't made Jesus Lord in their life didn't say, "oh he's saying I'm redeemed but I still need to come to Jesus and be cleansed". The message was not the Gospel. It didn't present Christ and him crucified to a dying world. When we read the Bible, the apostles made the Gospel plain. That's what this is about. He made a public speech and everyone has the right to address it if it was wrong. This is about the lost people in this world and their need to hear the gospel with clarity.
2 Corinthians 3:12 KJV
Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
2 Corinthians 3:12 KJV
Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
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Galadriel
Well-Known Member
I think the pope's homily also helps lend a little more context:
"The Lord created us in His image and likeness, and we are the image of the Lord, and He does good and all of us have this commandment at heart: do good and do not do evil. All of us. ‘But, Father, this is not Catholic! He cannot do good.’ Yes, he can. He must. Not can: must! Because he has this commandment within him. Instead, this ‘closing off’ that imagines that those outside, everyone, cannot do good is a wall that leads to war and also to what some people throughout history have conceived of: killing in the name of God. That we can kill in the name of God. And that, simply, is blasphemy. To say that you can kill in the name of God is blasphemy.”
“Instead,” the Pope continued, “the Lord has created us in His image and likeness, and has given us this commandment in the depths of our heart: do good and do not do evil”:
"The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone! And this Blood makes us children of God of the first class! We are created children in the likeness of God and the Blood of Christ has redeemed us all! And we all have a duty to do good. And this commandment for everyone to do good, I think, is a beautiful path towards peace. If we, each doing our own part, if we do good to others, if we meet there, doing good, and we go slowly, gently, little by little, we will make that culture of encounter: we need that so much. We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: we will meet one another there.”
Text from page http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/201...counter_is_the_foundation_of_peace/en1-694445
of the Vatican Radio website
He is not saying "Just do good, and you'll go to Heaven," he is asserting that:
1) All human beings are created in God's image and likeness
2) Any good we do is because of Him
3) We must follow the commandments God wrote upon our hearts to do good and not evil
4) Even those outside the Church are capable of good actions
5) We (Christians and non-Christians) can meet each other at this starting point.
Protestants note: when we say "redeemed" and when you say "redeemed," we may talk past each other because we don't mean the same thing you do when using the word.
"The Lord created us in His image and likeness, and we are the image of the Lord, and He does good and all of us have this commandment at heart: do good and do not do evil. All of us. ‘But, Father, this is not Catholic! He cannot do good.’ Yes, he can. He must. Not can: must! Because he has this commandment within him. Instead, this ‘closing off’ that imagines that those outside, everyone, cannot do good is a wall that leads to war and also to what some people throughout history have conceived of: killing in the name of God. That we can kill in the name of God. And that, simply, is blasphemy. To say that you can kill in the name of God is blasphemy.”
“Instead,” the Pope continued, “the Lord has created us in His image and likeness, and has given us this commandment in the depths of our heart: do good and do not do evil”:
"The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone! And this Blood makes us children of God of the first class! We are created children in the likeness of God and the Blood of Christ has redeemed us all! And we all have a duty to do good. And this commandment for everyone to do good, I think, is a beautiful path towards peace. If we, each doing our own part, if we do good to others, if we meet there, doing good, and we go slowly, gently, little by little, we will make that culture of encounter: we need that so much. We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: we will meet one another there.”
Text from page http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/201...counter_is_the_foundation_of_peace/en1-694445
of the Vatican Radio website
He is not saying "Just do good, and you'll go to Heaven," he is asserting that:
1) All human beings are created in God's image and likeness
2) Any good we do is because of Him
3) We must follow the commandments God wrote upon our hearts to do good and not evil
4) Even those outside the Church are capable of good actions
5) We (Christians and non-Christians) can meet each other at this starting point.
Protestants note: when we say "redeemed" and when you say "redeemed," we may talk past each other because we don't mean the same thing you do when using the word.
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Galadriel
Well-Known Member
MrsHaseeb, the pope wasn't speaking to a group of atheists, this was his sermon during a Catholic mass at the Vatican to other Catholics.
The day's scripture reading was from the Gospel account of the disciples telling Jesus that they told another group to stop casting out demons in Christ's name because they weren't part of the official group of disciples. Pope Francis was using this example to teach Catholics that we shouldn't count as worthless the good that other people are capable of, because God's grace can reach anyone. Christ has died for humanity and earned redemption for all of us. As JaneBond007 rightly pointed out, the APPLICATION of redemption (salvation) is a whole other matter.
Whoever wrote the news story with the headline "Pope says all are saved," clearly did not understand the difference between redemption and salvation. Especially since "I am saved...you are saved" is not even Catholic terminology. We don't even say that.
Nice & Wavy
Well-Known Member
Galadriel,
Thank you for sharing the catholic meaning. I appreciate that you took the time to clarify it here in this thread.
MrsHaseeb,
Thank you for sharing your feelings on what you feel is the truth. I appreciate that you are so passionate about the Word...we all need more of this in our lives.
I pray the "us" and "them" would cease in this forum because at the end of the day, we will need each other when the boo boo hits the fan!
Ok, I'm done....Love ya'll!
ktykaty
Well-Known Member
Galadriel
Well-Known Member
@Galadriel,
Thank you for sharing the catholic meaning. I appreciate that you took the time to clarify it here in this thread.
@MrsHaseeb,
Thank you for sharing your feelings on what you feel is the truth. I appreciate that you are so passionate about the Word...we all need more of this in our lives.
I pray the "us" and "them" would cease in this forum because at the end of the day, we will need each other when the boo boo hits the fan!
Ok, I'm done....Love ya'll!
Thanks N&W!
Nice & Wavy
Well-Known Member
Iwanthealthyhair67,Yes, I know. I wish that it wasn't taken personally by JaneBond007 because I know what you were saying wasn't a direct attack to catholism but that you were addressing the "good" would cause us to be saved.
I'm learning that language is not fundamental. I believe that when we speak (or type text) that it can be taken out of context to the hearer/reader. I am learning to be quick to hear/read and slow to wrath. I am learning that we all have our own interpretations of what the Word of God says, but...we need to understand the Word in full and sometimes that can be difficult because of what we were taught/believe. I'm learning that I am growing continually daily....I will never arrive in my walk with Christ until I meet Him face to face.
My prayer for all of us in the Christianity Forum is that we all come to the place of forgiveness in whatever manner we offend. We are all imperfect, even though we are Christ Followers. I know that satan wants nothing else but for this forum to be dissolved....I see it being attacked daily, not just in this forum, but in the 'other' forums as well. I see our 'good' here being evil spoken of and it doesn't bother me anymore because I know that there are those who choose to live a life apart from God and when the truth is made known, or as a mirror to those without Christ, then there is a defensiveness that arises because of it. Jesus is absolute Lord!
We MUST remain as Christ desires...to be steadfast and immovable in our faith and when we speak/type or whatever, do it in love. I am FIRST to say that I am wrong for many of the things I have said/typed here in this forum. I have gotten angry and lashed out to some. I have been on the defensive and didn't want to hear anything from anyone because I was right, and the Holy Spirit brought correction to me, where I had snot running out of my nose because I had to repent of how I was feeling about some of the people on this forum.
We all must grow, because the days are evil. We all must forgive, because of Him who is faithful is coming soon...and He desires to find His Bride without spot or blemish. I want to be all that He wants me to be because I don't want to be without Him....EVER!
May the Lord bless each and every one of you and may His light shine upon your hearts today!
Thank you for thanking my post. I appreciate that you understood my heart in this post and what I meant.
God bless you for always being a light upon a hill which cannot be hidden!!!
Blessings, always.....
N&W
Nice & Wavy
Well-Known Member
You're welcome!Thanks N&W!
Galadriel
Well-Known Member
Agreed.
@Ithacagurl, was "Pope Delcares All Are Saved" part of some article that you got this from, or is this your own title that you created for the thread?
It is causing confusion, especially since the Pope wasn't even talking about salvation.
He was talking about peace and using our good actions to find common ground with one another--even with those who aren't Christian. You'll also notice that one of the Cardinals right there with the pope in this particular occasion was Cardinal Rai--he's one of our Eastern Patriarchs--which means he deals with Muslim and Christian relations in the Middle East. Cardinal Rai has recently come from Syria, where Christians are being attacked and their churches bombed. This is why Pope Francis was talking about "to kill in the name of God is blasphemy." Pope Francis was stressing that when we view another group of people as worthless and incapable of any good whatsoever, it can have horrible consequences. Pope Francis is appealing to the fact that whether Christian or non-Christian, God has written certain laws upon our hearts to guide us, and we should go with good and not evil.
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Ithacagurl
Well-Known Member
Re: Pope declares......
On where there is.
‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: we will meet one another there.”
Based upon another account he may be saying that even though they may not believe as he does that they can be of the same mind as to doing good only, in that it can be a positive benefit in general.
The wording is odd and may be that way due to translation. Still, putting the unbeliever on the scale of virtuous works, on the good side, is a huge problem of the way people are supposed to see the root problem of unbelief and sin. It won't do a condemmed person much good to get a gold star for effort while they perish.
On where there is.
‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: we will meet one another there.”
Based upon another account he may be saying that even though they may not believe as he does that they can be of the same mind as to doing good only, in that it can be a positive benefit in general.
The wording is odd and may be that way due to translation. Still, putting the unbeliever on the scale of virtuous works, on the good side, is a huge problem of the way people are supposed to see the root problem of unbelief and sin. It won't do a condemmed person much good to get a gold star for effort while they perish.
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Belle Du Jour
Well-Known Member
Scott Hahn on what the pope REALLY said:
Lots of people are criticizing Pope Francis' teaching earlier this week, as if he's deviating from the Church's teaching on the need to proclaim the good news... Contrary to what you may read in the media, please notice, nowhere does he even suggest - much less teach - that avowed atheists are saved. Instead, what he actually says is so obviously true and open to a perfectly fair and benign reading:
1. We shouldn't be so critical of outsiders that we don't allow ourselves to see or acknowledge whatever good they do, or truth they affirm (even atheists).
2. Christ didn't die to save only catholics/christians, but everybody (even atheists).
3. Since all are redeemed by Christ - at least potentially -we should be looking for ways to build bridges with them in order to actualize that redemptive potential, by showing them that whatever truth and goodness they embrace comes from - and leads to - Christ.
Lots of people are criticizing Pope Francis' teaching earlier this week, as if he's deviating from the Church's teaching on the need to proclaim the good news... Contrary to what you may read in the media, please notice, nowhere does he even suggest - much less teach - that avowed atheists are saved. Instead, what he actually says is so obviously true and open to a perfectly fair and benign reading:
1. We shouldn't be so critical of outsiders that we don't allow ourselves to see or acknowledge whatever good they do, or truth they affirm (even atheists).
2. Christ didn't die to save only catholics/christians, but everybody (even atheists).
3. Since all are redeemed by Christ - at least potentially -we should be looking for ways to build bridges with them in order to actualize that redemptive potential, by showing them that whatever truth and goodness they embrace comes from - and leads to - Christ.
Belle Du Jour
Well-Known Member
Again, the title of this thread is misleading and false. For the sake of respect for Catholics on LHCF and Christian truth and unity, I also urge that the title is changed to reflect what he actually said.
Iwanthealthyhair67
Well-Known Member
Nice & Wavy
Yes, I understand completely (I don't want the slightest thing to stand between me and God), ...You really touched my heart when you spoke of forgiveness, it's much needed in our lives and on this forum.
Yes, I understand completely (I don't want the slightest thing to stand between me and God), ...You really touched my heart when you spoke of forgiveness, it's much needed in our lives and on this forum.
@Iwanthealthyhair67,
Thank you for thanking my post. I appreciate that you understood my heart in this post and what I meant.
God bless you for always being a light upon a hill which cannot be hidden!!!
Blessings, always.....
N&W
Galadriel
Well-Known Member
Me feeding the hungry or saving a life is an objectively good action, just as a non-Christian feeding the hungry or saving a life is an objectively good action.
Now, whether or not they have MERITS (i.e., rewards, blessings, spiritual benefits) is a whole other matter, but I wouldn't snub a non-Christian for doing moral good.
For example, there are non-Christians, agnostics, etc. who are pro-life and against abortion. Should I look down on them and think their efforts worthless because they aren't Catholic, or Christian?
This is exactly what I think the pope was talking about--how we say, "But he's not Catholic/Christian! He can't do anything good!"
Now, whether or not they have MERITS (i.e., rewards, blessings, spiritual benefits) is a whole other matter, but I wouldn't snub a non-Christian for doing moral good.
For example, there are non-Christians, agnostics, etc. who are pro-life and against abortion. Should I look down on them and think their efforts worthless because they aren't Catholic, or Christian?
This is exactly what I think the pope was talking about--how we say, "But he's not Catholic/Christian! He can't do anything good!"
Belle Du Jour
Well-Known Member
^ You said it better than I could. I have a problem with the notion that a good deed done by a non-Christian is less virtuous than that done by a Christian. That is exactly what a pharisee would say and the same line of thinking Jesus condemned. How can we help the sinner to stop sinning if we look down on his/her good deeds? That is an uncharitable attitude. 
MrsHaseeb
Well-Known Member
I have tried and tried to go over this to make sure that I'm not making unjustified claims. And nothing I post is meant to attack any of the Catholic ladies on this forum. God bless you all and I certainly never want to offend any of you. However, if the Bible declares in Ephesians 2 that we are by nature enemies of God how can we really do good? What's the point of doing good only to be damned to hell? The message was slightly deceptive in that it doesn't plainly say repent because Jesus is coming back. While everyone has a different approach for how to reach a sinner I don't think its ever effective to not preach repentance and set forth Christ and him crucified. While he *kinda* said Christ's finished work on the cross makes redemption available, repentance and freedom/deliverance from sin and punishment for sin was not mentioned. That's what people need. Doing good deeds won't kill the sin nature. Only repentance can do that. Look around at the world... We see a bunch of hurting ( and some just utterly demon possessed) people. These people need healing and deliverance from the great physician, Christ Jesus. But if they are not compelled to come to him, how can he help them? Does not the Bible say warn the righteous, warn the wicked? This is not a time to sugar coat. Some warning needs to be done because this nation is being turned into hell for forgetting God. Praying for *us* all.
P.S. Telling people who don't know Christ to do good may make this present world a better place if they obey (but the Bible has prophesied that they won't). The devil can watch people so good all day, his war is waged where it comes to people becoming true followers of Christ. That's where the attack needs to be focused. Not at telling the people in his control to "do good".
P.S. Telling people who don't know Christ to do good may make this present world a better place if they obey (but the Bible has prophesied that they won't). The devil can watch people so good all day, his war is waged where it comes to people becoming true followers of Christ. That's where the attack needs to be focused. Not at telling the people in his control to "do good".
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MrsHaseeb
Well-Known Member
^ You said it better than I could. I have a problem with the notion that a good deed done by a non-Christian is less virtuous than that done by a Christian. That is exactly what a pharisee would say and the same line of thinking Jesus condemned. How can we help the sinner to stop sinning if we look down on his/her good deeds? That is an uncharitable attitude.
Belle, but the Pharisees were some of the first doing good for the praise of men. I don't see where the apostles used this approach look how God drew people to himself. Doing good deeds can actually make a person legalistic by causing them to trust their deeds but yet their heart is far from Jesus. Its not about condemning their good deeds, but rather telling them that good deeds will not save in the end. Those who want Jesus will acknowledge their sin. Those who don't will begin to trust the works. It's not our job to make them feel comfortable. On the day of Pentecost Peter flat out told the people that they crucified Jesus. Those who felt conviction cried, "men and brethren what shall we do?!" Those who were hardened mocked and accused the 120 of being drunk with new wine.
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Belle Du Jour
Well-Known Member
That wasn't the point of the pope's sermon. And he certainly didn't tell anyone that their good deeds will get them to Heaven. That is a common fallacy about Catholics--that we believe works will get up in. No ma'am.
We are saved by grace but works are part of the fruits of a Christian life that will naturally pour out.My issue with Ithacagurl's comment was that the good work by a Christian is more virtuous. That is a self-righteous attitude and THAT is what Jesus was condemning. They were calling out the sin in the other folks without ignoring the plank in their own eye. Why the need to qualify at all why someone is doing a good work? I think a more humble attitude is to thank God for salvation and mercy and remember "there, but for the grace of God, I go. . ."
The pope was talking to Catholics at mass. He was not trying to soothe non-Christians or make them feel better. Trust that the Church is not in the business of making people "comfortable." We preach living in faith and holiness, despite the fact that people think our faith is about following "rules." The church has not changed her stance on gay marriage, contraception, etc while many other Christian denominations have, but that's another thread. My main point was that Christians should speak with compassion--yes, call a spade a spade but not in a demeaning or demoralizing way. That is not of Christ.
Belle Du Jour
Well-Known Member
I'm sorry but I didn't see anything deceptive in his sermon. I also don't see where he was suggesting an "alternative pathway" to salvation by telling non-Christians that if they do X amount of good deeds, they can get into heaven.
There is no "hinting" in church dogma that Christ's death and resurrection was the once and for all sacrifice that redeemed our fallen nature. We remember it at every mass in the Liturgy of the Eucharist. Pope emeritus Benedict XVI called this current liturgical year the "Year of Faith" calling all Catholics to deepen their walk with God. In terms of warning people, the Church has been very vocal (even prophetic for example in Humane Vitae) about the moral decline of society that is taking place. A perusal of the US Conference of Catholic Bishops website will reveal that the church has been calling this country to holiness for some time now. . .
The pope's message was taken out of context and in error. Now, generalizations are being made about what he didn't say in this particular homily. These things are constantly being preached by the church.
MrsHaseeb
Well-Known Member
Belle, you keep going into what Catholics believe and do but just to clarify... I never once implied any of that about Catholicism but rather spoke on how the message was presented. I don't think anyone in here attacked your beliefs. As far as everything else, I suppose we are simply viewing from different angles. My comments were not about endlessly debating whether Catholic doctrine is biblical it not (Lord knows there has been enough of that) but rather to state why some found the homily to be an issue. Either way,God bless
Galadriel
Well-Known Member
First, I think it's important to understand that good and evil are objective. Anyone can commit an objectively good or evil action, regardless of religion or creed. You seem to be conflating morally good actions with the spiritual merit or reward that God can attach to them. Those are two different things.
But on to Francis...
I think the problem is that you're still interpreting the pope's homily through the He's-Talking-About-Salvation-Lens...
He is not talking about doing good in order to go to heaven. In fact, you'll notice in the entire homily, that the pope doesn't say the word "saved," so why then is the misleading title proclaiming, "Pope says all are saved"?
He was not speaking to a group of non-Christians at the time of this homily--this was in the middle of a Catholic Mass, and he was speaking to Catholics.
He was telling them that charity and good deeds are a meeting ground where we can encounter others outside our community.
Unfortunately, Ithacagurl did not quote the entire thing (which I think further led to confusion among several Protestants commenting thus far). In the missing paragraph that she left out, the pope is talking about how violence and killing people "in the name of God" is immoral, and blasphemy, and how people who view that it's all right to harm and kill in the name of God are the same people who don't see any worth in the people they attack.
"But Father! He's not Catholic! How can he do any good?" The pope is pointing out how the mindset of "He's not one of us, therefore he's worthless and can do nothing good" is not the right attitude to have, because it's the same attitude that some people use to justify violence.
This especially has significance and helps lend to the context of the Pope's homily because Cardinal Rai was AT THE MASS ASSISTING THE POPE.
Who is Cardinal Rai?
He is one of the cardinals from the Middle East, and has traveled to Syria to help support the Christians in that region who are undergoing discrimination, persecution, and physical attacks by Muslim extremists/terrorist groups. The pope clearly condemns violence "in the name of God/religion" and using violence to force people to convert.
This is why the pope (again, this is from the paragraph that OP conveniently left out) spoke about how every one of us are made in God's image and likeness, that God wrote certain laws upon our hearts, and how even those who do not have full revelation (The Bible, the Teachings of the Apostles), have the ability and even the duty to obey the laws GOD wrote upon their hearts, and choose good deeds over evil deeds.
Christ redeemed all of us, meaning, in dying on the Cross He earned and paid for the opportunity for forgiveness of sins and eternity with God in Heaven. Redemption is available to all. This is what the pope spoke of.
Salvation is the individual application of redemption and how the person responds to Christ's redemption. But the pope wasn't talking about salvation in this specific instance--he was talking about redemption, avoiding violence through religion, and using the good deeds in others to help build relationships.
I repeat--I repeat--Pope Francis' homily was NOT about who goes to heaven or hell. This is why we were asking OP to change the name of this thread, because it's misleading. It was also misleading for her to leave out an entire paragraph from the quote.
I think it's unfair to say the pope is teaching deception because he didn't tell a group of Catholics at a Catholic Mass "repent, Jesus is coming," when the subject of his homily was "don't kill people in the name of God and call it goodness."
Again, he wasn't speaking to a group of atheists--this was his fellow Catholics at a Catholic Mass.
That's why I think it's important to look at the full context of the pope's homily to see what the subject was, and what point he was trying to make. He was condemning violence in the name of religion.
Again, this wasn't the subject he was addressing.
Again, he was in the middle of a Catholic worship service speaking to Catholics. He wasn't at a general meeting talking with non-Christians or non-Catholics.
Galadriel
Well-Known Member
Remember, the pope is talking to Catholics at a Catholic Mass--he is not addressing non-Christians.
Also, the pope nowhere said that good works will get you to heaven or save you. He wasn't even addressing the issue of going to heaven or hell.
ktykaty
Well-Known Member
Ithacagurl
Can you please change that God-awful title ?
MrsHaseeb
I believe that part of your confusion is because you believe Pope Francis was doing a full theological teaching. What he was doing was a homily, a sermon (short) during Mass, intended to edify the congregation on a specific/practical matter. And this one wasn't even a Sunday Mass homily !
the congregation was a group a catholics employed by the church and working for the government of the Vatican. They must often deal with non catholics in their jobs.
the specific subject was true tolerance.
-------------------------------
Some may found the homily to be an issue. But this is not about this homily. this is about intolerance. this is about pressuring others to say what you want them to say, how you want them to say it and when you want them to say it. If they do not comply, then they must clarify a perfectly articulate speech, they are accused of being delusive, deceitful, unscriptural,....
This is about the devil trying to force catholics to shut their mouth. We are one church, one body. we are in communion. when the Pope is attacked, all of us are attacked. When the Pope is accused of false teaching, it is catholic bashing, we are all accused of not being in communion with Christ.
Yes, it is that deep and that painful for us catholics.
Can you please change that God-awful title ?
MrsHaseeb
I believe that part of your confusion is because you believe Pope Francis was doing a full theological teaching. What he was doing was a homily, a sermon (short) during Mass, intended to edify the congregation on a specific/practical matter. And this one wasn't even a Sunday Mass homily !
the congregation was a group a catholics employed by the church and working for the government of the Vatican. They must often deal with non catholics in their jobs.
the specific subject was true tolerance.
-------------------------------
Some may found the homily to be an issue. But this is not about this homily. this is about intolerance. this is about pressuring others to say what you want them to say, how you want them to say it and when you want them to say it. If they do not comply, then they must clarify a perfectly articulate speech, they are accused of being delusive, deceitful, unscriptural,....
This is about the devil trying to force catholics to shut their mouth. We are one church, one body. we are in communion. when the Pope is attacked, all of us are attacked. When the Pope is accused of false teaching, it is catholic bashing, we are all accused of not being in communion with Christ.
Yes, it is that deep and that painful for us catholics.
Nice & Wavy
Well-Known Member
I hear what some of you are saying about the fact that the Pope was speaking to catholics in a homely, however...what he said about 'all being redeemed', got me to thinking. Look at this:
Wouldn't it have been better understood (whether he was speaking to catholics or 'outsiders' as you ladies put it) if he would have said this:
My prayer for the CF is that we can come to a place of peace, even if we don't agree.
Isn't this what Jesus has done for those who accept Him as Lord and Savior over their lives? I know you ladies who are catholic don't use the word 'saved', but that is what it means...to be 'saved' from spiritual death which is...separation from God for eternity.
Wouldn't it have been better understood (whether he was speaking to catholics or 'outsiders' as you ladies put it) if he would have said this:
This I feel would have had a better response from those who read what he said in the OP. But when he said this:
...from what I am reading, he has said that "All" has been redeemed. (salvation given by Jesus dying on the cross and shedding His blood for mankind and man recognizing his/her sinful nature and knowing that he/she needs a Savior and then ask that Jesus to come into their hearts and change their lives) but, we all must know that this isn't the case because the scriptures tell us:
The word "saved" is written in scripture, this isn't a word that us 'Protestants' made up or created in our own mind.
My prayer for the CF is that we can come to a place of peace, even if we don't agree.
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Nice & Wavy
Well-Known Member
MrsHaseeb
Well-Known Member
I hear what some of you are saying about the fact that the Pope was speaking to catholics in a homely, however...what he said about 'all being redeemed', got me to thinking. Look at this:
Isn't this what Jesus has done for those who accept Him as Lord and Savior over their lives? I know you ladies who are catholic don't use the word 'saved', but that is what it means...to be 'saved' from spiritual death which is...separation from God for eternity.
Wouldn't it have been better understood (whether he was speaking to catholics or 'outsiders' as you ladies put it) if he would have said this:
This I feel would have had a better response from those who read what he said in the OP. But when he said this:
...from what I am reading, he has said that "All" has been redeemed. (salvation given by Jesus dying on the cross and shedding His blood for mankind and man recognizing his/her sinful nature and knowing that he/she needs a Savior and then ask that Jesus to come into their hearts and change their lives) but, we all must know that this isn't the case because the scriptures tell us:
The word "saved" is written in scripture, this isn't a word that us 'Protestants' made up or created in our own mind.
My prayer for the CF is that we can come to a place of peace, even if we don't agree.
Amen Sis! Thank you for this post.
MrsHaseeb
Well-Known Member
I just need to say this then I'm done.. You say when your Pope is attacked all catholics are attacked... Hmmm... Its funny that the same people who come to defense of their pope gladly hold hands with Muslims (and call them brothers) who claim to be an Abrahamic religion yet pray to the east 5 times a day starting before the sun is up that Allah is the only God and he has no need of a son and Muhammad is his prophet, utterly denying the deity of our Lord Jesus Christ and exalting a wicked man in his place as the prophet. I'd sure love to see such zeal for Jesus Christ..
At the end of the day, the same excuses you being made for why catholics side-eye people who say their "saved" is exactly why your pope was dead wrong in his homily regarding redemption. Redemption is also a process and those in Christ are indeed "being redeemed" and waiting for the day of redemption.
Ephesians 4:30 KJV
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Everyone have a great night.
ktykaty
Well-Known Member
I hear what some of you are saying about the fact that the Pope was speaking to catholics in a homely, however...what he said about 'all being redeemed', got me to thinking. Look at this:
Isn't this what Jesus has done for those who accept Him as Lord and Savior over their lives? I know you ladies who are catholic don't use the word 'saved', but that is what it means...to be 'saved' from spiritual death which is...separation from God for eternity.
Wouldn't it have been better understood (whether he was speaking to catholics or 'outsiders' as you ladies put it) if he would have said this:
This I feel would have had a better response from those who read what he said in the OP. But when he said this:
...from what I am reading, he has said that "All" has been redeemed. (salvation given by Jesus dying on the cross and shedding His blood for mankind and man recognizing his/her sinful nature and knowing that he/she needs a Savior and then ask that Jesus to come into their hearts and change their lives) but, we all must know that this isn't the case because the scriptures tell us:
The word "saved" is written in scripture, this isn't a word that us 'Protestants' made up or created in our own mind.
My prayer for the CF is that we can come to a place of peace, even if we don't agree.
From the definition of the word redeem that you posted it is quite clear that redemption is the paying of the ransom. Jesus, our Lord and Savior paid the price once and for all when He died on the cross. We are not being redeemed. Saying that we are being redeemed means that the death of Christ on the cross is not the one and only thing that pays the price for our sins. People aren't redeemable. they are redeem by Jesus death.
I understand that you and some others are adding the act of repentance into the definition of the word redeem. what I do not understand is why you seem to want others to go/live by your modified definition of the word. Why can't we just stick with the dictionary definition of a word when communicating with others ??
ohwell:Beside, it is very scriptural to say that Jesus died (payed the price for sins) for all mankind.
Hebrews 2:5-9
"For He has not put the world to come, of which we speak, in subjection to angels. 6 But one testified in a certain place, saying:“What is man that You are mindful of him,
Or the son of man that You take care of him?
7 You have made him a little lower than the angels;
You have crowned him with glory and honor,[a]
And set him over the works of Your hands.
8 You have put all things in subjection under his feet.”[b]
For in that He put all in subjection under him, He left nothing that is not put under him. But now we do not yet see all things put under him. 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone."
ktykaty
Well-Known Member
MrsHaseeb
First bolded. I don't see what this has to do with me or with what I posted. If anything that just confirm to me that you were just doing some catholic bashing because you are projecting some serious shade my way.
Second bolded. I don't see the logical articulation between that and the scripture you posted. and this is in contradiction with Hebrews 10:10
"By that Will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. "
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