Pope declares all are saved

[Nice & Wavy]

From the definition of the word redeem that you posted it is quite clear that redemption is the paying of the ransom. Jesus, our Lord and Savior paid the price once and for all when He died on the cross. We are not being redeemed. Saying that we are being redeemed means that the death of Christ on the cross is not the one and only thing that pays the price for our sins. People aren't redeemable. they are redeem by Jesus death.

I understand that you and some others are adding the act of repentance into the definition of the word redeem. what I do not understand is why you seem to want others to go/live by your modified definition of the word. Why can't we just stick with the dictionary definition of a word when communicating with others ?

? ohwell:

Beside, it is very scriptural to say that Jesus died (payed the price for sins) for all mankind.
Hebrews 2:5-9
"For He has not put the world to come, of which we speak, in subjection to angels. 6 But one testified in a certain place, saying:“What is man that You are mindful of him,
Or the son of man that You take care of him?
7 You have made him a little lower than the angels;
You have crowned him with glory and honor,[a]
And set him over the works of Your hands.
8 You have put all things in subjection under his feet.”[b]

For in that He put all in subjection under him, He left nothing that is not put under him. But now we do not yet see all things put under him. 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone."

Lady, the way I put my words in this thread is the way I wanted to do it. If you see it the way of me wanting people to go my way, then I don't know what to say to you. I chose to use the definition in the dictionary and I added to it from a scripture view. If you don't like it, honestly....you can just keep moving. I did not come in here and tell the catholics not to post what they wanted. All of you posted what you wanted but as soon as I or others post what we want, we are intolerant and only God knows what else is being said.

People, I am going to say what I want in these threads. It's not against forum rules so if you don't like what I have to say, don't read my posts. But, I refuse to allow people to tell me what I should say and what I shouldn't say....IT'S NOT GONNA HAPPEN so don't waste you time.

Good day!

 

[Laela]

I kept reading what the pope said and had read your response..and that's it for me as well... THERE.

While I see what the pope is trying to say: That we are all OF God since we were all created in His image, so there is a common ground of humanity to do good...that is THERE. It's like tearing a piece of paper into pieces yet each piece still has the essence of the whole paper. I get that. But the Blood of Jesus takes us beyond THERE. So while Christ died and paid the ransom for all of our sins, we must first believe and accept for that spiritual status to take place.

Remember Juneteenth? Those slaves in Texas had no idea they were free years after the fact. The emancipation actually already took place but they were still slaves in their minds; they hadn't received the word, to be able to believe it, to accept the fact that they's free. Same thing here with an atheist. An atheist who rejects God is not able to be redeemed by the Blood of Jesus if he doesn't even believe it! We need not mention heaven or hell when "good" is mentioned but it's understood heaven or hell is involved, as at the end, we all must account to God for all that we have done/said in this body -- good or bad. After all, this is a Christian forum:

For we are his workmanship, having been created in Christ Jesus for good works that God prepared beforehand so we may do them (Ephesians 2:10).

If an atheist doesn't even believe in God and reject Jesus, how can he do 'good works'? I see why Christians are not feeling what the pope said. Even if he spoke only to Catholics, the statement in and of itself carries much weight in Christendom. Kinda remind me of when Mitt Romney spoke only to Republicans in a private dinner, yet his 47% comments were aired publicly. Same concept.

On where there is.

‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: we will meet one another there.”

Based upon another account he may be saying that even though they may not believe as he does that they can be of the same mind as to doing good only, in that it can be a positive benefit in general.

The wording is odd and may be that way due to translation. Still, putting the unbeliever on the scale of virtuous works, on the good side, is a huge problem of the way people are supposed to see the root problem of unbelief and sin. It won't do a condemmed person much good to get a gold star for effort while they perish.

 

[ktykaty]

Lady, the way I put my words in this thread is the way I wanted to do it. If you see it the way of me wanting people to go my way, then I don't know what to say to you. I chose to use the definition in the dictionary and I added to it from a scripture view. If you don't like it, honestly....you can just keep moving. I did not come in here and tell the catholics not to post what they wanted. All of you posted what you wanted but as soon as I or others post what we want, we are intolerant and only God knows what else is being said.

People, I am going to say what I want in these threads. It's not against forum rules so if you don't like what I have to say, don't read my posts. But, I refuse to allow people to tell me what I should say and what I shouldn't say....IT'S NOT GONNA HAPPEN so don't waste you time.

Good day!

Madam,

I do not deny you the right to put whatever you please into the definition of the word redeem. You are free and I'm not your Holy Spirit. do as you please.
Pope Francis used the verb redeem with the definition find in the dictionary. What I said is that I cannot comprehend why you want to put into his mouth your definition of that word and then say that he is incorrect.

beside, a line has been crossed. it's your right to disagree with us. it's your right to think & believe differently from us. but telling someone how they should talk, what they should say, is trying to make them conform to you and not letting them be themselves. it is an attack on our individuality as catholic. this is unacceptable.
there is a clear difference between "I do not agree with what you said" or "this how I see things" and "you should say this and that" or "you should use this and this word".
People, everyone catholic or not have a right to their own opinion and their own belief. It is not your job/responsibility to revise the teaching of our pope and our church. Respect the fact that we have another interpretation of sacred scriptures.

I have stated that some of the thing said here are hurting me and my fellow catholics. another poster has stated how hurt she was and still, you and others find it appropriate to go on with the same hurtful stuff.
I'm still dumbfounded by the fact that hurting another christian does not make you stop doing whatever it is you are doing.

 

[Nice & Wavy]

I kept reading what the pope said and had read your response..and that's it for me as well... THERE.

While I see what the pope is trying to say: That we are all OF God since we were all created in His image, so there is a common ground of humanity to do good...that is THERE. It's like tearing a piece of paper into pieces yet each piece still has the essence of the whole paper. I get that. But the Blood of Jesus takes us beyond THERE. So while Christ died and paid the ransom for all of our sins, we must first believe and accept for that spiritual status to take place.

Remember Juneteenth? Those slaves in Texas had no idea they were free years after the fact. The emancipation actually already took place but they were still slaves in their minds; they hadn't received the word, to be able to believe it, to accept the fact that they's free. Same thing here with an atheist. An atheist who rejects God is not able to be redeemed by the Blood of Jesus if he doesn't even believe it! We need not mention heaven or hell when "good" is mentioned but it's understood heaven or hell is involved, as at the end, we all must account to God for all that we have done/said in this body -- good or bad. After all, this is a Christian forum:

For we are his workmanship, having been created in Christ Jesus for good works that God prepared beforehand so we may do them (Ephesians 2:10).

If an atheist doesn't even believe in God and reject Jesus, how can he do 'good works'? I see why Christians are not feeling what the pope said. Even if he spoke only to Catholics, the statement in and of itself carries much weight in Christendom. Kinda remind me of when Mitt Romney spoke only to Republicans in a private dinner, yet his 47% comments were aired publicly. Same concept.

I thank God for you, Laela. The wisdom that the Lord has given you always shine through some of the toughest areas on this forum. Thank you for always being a light on a dark hill

@ the bolded....you clarified so much with this comment...

 

[Nice & Wavy]

Madam,

I do not deny you the right to put whatever you please into the definition of the word redeem. You are free and I'm not your Holy Spirit. do as you please.
Pope Francis used the verb redeem with the definition find in the dictionary. What I said is that I cannot comprehend why you want to put into his mouth your definition of that word and then say that he is incorrect.

beside, a line has been crossed. it's your right to disagree with us. it's your right to think & believe differently from us. but telling someone how they should talk, what they should say, is trying to make them conform to you and not letting them be themselves. it is an attack on our individuality as catholic. this is unacceptable.
there is a clear difference between "I do not agree with what you said" or "this how I see things" and "you should say this and that" or "you should use this and this word".
People, everyone catholic or not have a right to their own opinion and their own belief. It is not your job/responsibility to revise the teaching of our pope and our church. Respect the fact that we have another interpretation of sacred scriptures.

I have stated that some of the thing said here are hurting me and my fellow catholics. another poster has stated how hurt she was and still, you and others find it appropriate to go on with the same hurtful stuff.
I'm still dumbfounded by the fact that hurting another christian does not make you stop doing whatever it is you are doing.

Ok....I'm going to leave you to your hurt. I didn't say anything that warranted your kind of comment, but whatever. Even Jesus let the Pharisee's and Sadducee's alone so that they can believe what they wanted.

 

[ktykaty]

Ok....I'm going to leave you to your hurt. I didn't say anything that warranted your kind of comment, but whatever. Even Jesus let the Pharisee's and Sadducee's alone so that they can believe what they wanted.

Nice & Wavy
Yes you did. and here comes something insulting, you are putting me in the same boat as the Pharisees and Sadducees.
from fellow christians, I am expecting love and care. by going on doing something hurtful when it has been express to you that it is hurting us, you are basically telling us / demonstrating that you do not love us nor care about us.

what is hurting me is the lack of love. what is hurting me is seeing people who claim the name of Jesus but are not loving the people Jesus love. You cannot love Jesus and not love His church.
What is hurting me is seeing you and some other christians sinning against other member of the Church of Christ and seemingly not caring about it/them. this lack of love inside the church cannot possibly go on because it is not of Christ.
and that dismissive comment that you just wrote is simply telling me that you do not care about me. another sinful act.
What is hurting me is seeing God's Peolpe using words in order to destroy and hurt and not in order to love and built up.
What is killing me is seeing some Christians being used by the devil to destroy others.
Words do hurt like crazy. and it is scary that you and other christians do not realise how much damage you are doing with your words.

 

[Nice & Wavy]

@Nice & Wavy
Yes you did. and here comes something insulting, you are putting me in the same boat as the Pharisees and Sadducees.
from fellow christians, I am expecting love and care. by going on doing something hurtful when it has been express to you that it is hurting us, you are basically telling us / demonstrating that you do not love us nor care about us.

what is hurting me is the lack of love. what is hurting me is seeing people who claim the name of Jesus but are not loving the people Jesus love. You cannot love Jesus and not love His church.
What is hurting me is seeing you and some other christians sinning against other member of the Church of Christ and seemingly not caring about it/them. this lack of love inside the church cannot possibly go on because it is not of Christ.
and that dismissive comment that you just wrote is simply telling me that you do not care about me. another sinful act.
What is hurting me is seeing God's Peolpe using words in order to destroy and hurt and not in order to love and built up.
What is killing me is seeing some Christians being used by the devil to destroy others.
Words do hurt like crazy. and it is scary that you and other christians do not realise how much damage you are doing with your words.

I refuse...refuse to allow you or anyone else to say that I am being used by the devil. I think you have some growing up to do because what you are saying isn't right at all. You can say what you want, but I am not going to apologize for something I did not do to you or any other catholic on this forum. Being a Christian doesn't mean being a doormat, even in a forum.

 

[fifi134]

Nice & Wavy
Yes you did. and here comes something insulting, you are putting me in the same boat as the Pharisees and Sadducees.
from fellow christians, I am expecting love and care. by going on doing something hurtful when it has been express to you that it is hurting us, you are basically telling us / demonstrating that you do not love us nor care about us.

what is hurting me is the lack of love. what is hurting me is seeing people who claim the name of Jesus but are not loving the people Jesus love. You cannot love Jesus and not love His church.
What is hurting me is seeing you and some other christians sinning against other member of the Church of Christ and seemingly not caring about it/them. this lack of love inside the church cannot possibly go on because it is not of Christ.
and that dismissive comment that you just wrote is simply telling me that you do not care about me. another sinful act.
What is hurting me is seeing God's Peolpe using words in order to destroy and hurt and not in order to love and built up.
What is killing me is seeing some Christians being used by the devil to destroy others.
Words do hurt like crazy. and it is scary that you and other christians do not realise how much damage you are doing with your words.

Exactly. Which is why you should be careful when you accuse some Christians of 'being used by the devil'.

 

[Nice & Wavy]

Exactly. Which is why you should be careful when you accuse some Christians of 'being used by the devil'.

Thank you for this post...

 

[Laela]

Sis, I'm thankful for the wisdom from many in this forum as well, you included ... I was just scratching my head on this thing until it clicked because something was amiss .. I appreciate the clarity from Galadriel's posts. Thank God for you ladies in this forum who continue to stand on God's truth, regardless of what or who, because this thing is serious... continue to be joyful in the Lord. Mom encouraged me with this Word today and I encourage you just the same!!

I thank God for you, Laela. The wisdom that the Lord has given you always shine through some of the toughest areas on this forum. Thank you for always being a light on a dark hill

@ the bolded....you clarified so much with this comment...

 

[Nice & Wavy]

Sis, I'm thankful for the wisdom from many in this forum as well, you included ... I was just scratching my head on this thing until it clicked because something was amiss .. I appreciate the clarity from Galadriel's posts. Thank God for you ladies in this forum who continue to stand on God's truth, regardless of what or who, because this thing is serious... continue to be joyful in the Lord. Mom encouraged me with this Word today and I encourage you just the same!!

~Amein

 

[Nice & Wavy]

This is from an atheist blogger about what the Pope spoke about in his homely:

Staks Rosch

Dear Pope, Atheists Don't Need Redemption

Posted: 05/24/2013 10:57 am


Atheists like me are used to religious leaders like the last pope telling us that we are going to Hell to be tortured for all eternity because we are skeptical of their pretty hard to believe claims. This new pope surprised everyone the other day by proclaiming that atheists are not condemned to eternal torture if we live a virtuous life. Thanks for that, Pope Francis, but I wasn't worried. I'm reasonably sure that Hell is imaginary.

The thing is that Pope Francis went farther than just acknowledging that atheists aren't going to be tortured for all eternity. He also said that if we live virtuous lives, we will be "redeemed" by Jesus just like Christians. I think that last part goes a little too far for me. I know the pope meant well and probably didn't realize just how condescending that actually sounds to many atheists. In an effort to help the pope better communicate with the growing atheist community and in the spirit of furthering dialog, I'm going to explain why I take issue with his statement.

I'm not interested in being "redeemed" by Jesus. Contrary to the Catholic and even the broader Christian belief, I don't believe humans are evil sinners in need of redemption. I don't see the glass as half empty. The way I see it, the glass is full. Half the glass is filled with water and the other half filled with air. In other words, I don't think people are inherently evil; I think people are more nuanced than that. We do good things and we do bad things.

As a humanist, I have come to understand that people generally try to be the best they can. We are all trying to be the heroes in our own story, sometimes getting sidetracked along the way. It seems to me that Christian theology demands that Christians focus on a half empty glass. Christianity depends on the belief that we are all evil sinners needing redemption, but what if we aren't evil sinners? What if there is more to the story? Then we don't need redemption and we don't need a redeemer. If people aren't evil sinners and Jesus' alleged death on the cross didn't redeem them vicariously, then the whole thing falls apart like a house of cards. Everything Christianity is about hinges on the belief that we are all wretched human beings and that no one is righteous, not one.

While I really am glad that the current pope doesn't believe that atheists will be and ought to be tortured for all eternity, I think he still has a long way to go on moral issues. It isn't just that we have a diametrically different view of humanity; there are a host of other important moral issues that this pope has to deal with.

I didn't copy and paste the rest of his article because I thought it was very rude to catholics.

 

[Belle Du Jour]

You cannot love Jesus and not love His church.

This is a very poignant statement and one that I wish all Christians would meditate on. . .There is clearly a church that was established by Jesus Christ. It did not disappear or morph into 40,000+ thousand churches created by men in "protest" of the mother Church. From a purely historical and factual point of view, I wish non-Catholic/Orthodox Christians would just respect that but I digress. . .

Overall, I think things were improving in these forums and then, there was this thread. I'm not sure if I said it before, but I have no ill will towards anyone in this forum even if we disagree on doctrine. I know that none of us will completely understand the fullness of truth until we're on the other side.

 

[Belle Du Jour]

This is from an atheist blogger about what the Pope spoke about in his homely:

I didn't copy and paste the rest of his article because I thought it was very rude to catholics.

I'm not surprised that an atheist totally missed the point of what the Pope was saying. Christians and non-Christians alike grossly misunderstand what the Church teaches and why. After all, we believe that the Eucharist is really Jesus' body and blood like He said, so we must be cannibals. erplexed

“There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.” Fulton J. Sheen

 

[ktykaty]

Exactly. Which is why you should be careful when you accuse some Christians of 'being used by the devil'.

I weighted those words carefully before posting them. I stand by what I said.
Some people in this thread are unloving and don't care about their sisters jn Christ. Some of their actions are not Christ like.
What is happening on the spiritual level is that they are helping the devil in his attack against the church. Apparently, they do not care enough to stop.
It is a very very sad situation.

 

[Galadriel]

I hear what some of you are saying about the fact that the Pope was speaking to catholics in a homely, however...what he said about 'all being redeemed', got me to thinking. Look at this:

Isn't this what Jesus has done for those who accept Him as Lord and Savior over their lives? I know you ladies who are catholic don't use the word 'saved', but that is what it means...to be 'saved' from spiritual death which is...separation from God for eternity.

Wouldn't it have been better understood (whether he was speaking to catholics or 'outsiders' as you ladies put it) if he would have said this:
This I feel would have had a better response from those who read what he said in the OP. But when he said this:
...from what I am reading, he has said that "All" has been redeemed. (salvation given by Jesus dying on the cross and shedding His blood for mankind and man recognizing his/her sinful nature and knowing that he/she needs a Savior and then ask that Jesus to come into their hearts and change their lives) but, we all must know that this isn't the case because the scriptures tell us:
The word "saved" is written in scripture, this isn't a word that us 'Protestants' made up or created in our own mind.

My prayer for the CF is that we can come to a place of peace, even if we don't agree.

N&W, this is exactly why it's important to understand the Catholic definition of redeemed vs. the Protestant definition of the word. I would like to be at a place of peace as well, but I think it's bad Christian Charity to misrepresent someone's words (as Ithacagurl has done with Pope Francis) and not even come back to the thread to explain her actions. She didn't bother to quote the entire article, left out important contextual information--so any resulting arguments and disagreements is based on the ill information and confusion that she has sewn.

 

[Galadriel]

This is from an atheist blogger about what the Pope spoke about in his homely:

I didn't copy and paste the rest of his article because I thought it was very rude to catholics.

Wow, that atheist had no clue what the pope was talking about.

 

[Galadriel]

I
If an atheist doesn't even believe in God and reject Jesus, how can he do 'good works'?

Because actions are either morally good, morally evil, or morally neutral no matter WHO commits the action.

When I drink a glass of water, that is a morally neutral act. If I feed a hungry person, that is a morally good act. If I lie, that is a morally evil act.

Morality is objective. It is a truth and standard that exists outside ourselves and applies to all peoples, times, and places.

A Christian who commits adultery has committed moral evil just as an atheist who commits adultery has committed moral evil. If an atheist (or Buddhist, etc.) commits an objectively morally good act--he/she has committed a good act.

God doesn't suspend moral goodness just because an atheist does a morally good act. The danger in thinking this is that it leads to morality by divine dictate--something is good or evil because God dictates it so (this is more common in Islam, not Christianity). Christians do not hold to morality by divine dictate, but instead hold that morality is objective and absolute, and God upholds and enforces moral truths.

 

[Galadriel]

Also, I forgot who mentioned it earlier, but I do think that *some* here carry the prejudiced concept that Catholics believe in works-based salvation. We don't.

 

[Laela]

What you just said only further explains "THERE" ..the common ground of morality. Again, I get that..and I'm sure many here do as well.

It's dangerous to say anyone who has not accepted Jesus, are redeemed by the Blood of Jesus. That's all everyone here who disagreed with the pope's statements have been saying.

We can discuss all day long about morality, but morality, being good, good deeds, won't get us to Paradise. There is only one way to the Father - by faith through Jesus. We're saved by grace, through faith, so 'good works' are a manifestation of the inner working of salvation for those redeemed by the Blood of Jesus, thus my comment on the atheist.

You know, it's not even about the pope and Catholicism or 'attack' on the faith. If any other Christian leader or minister had said that, I assure you, we'd still have this discussion.

Because actions are either morally good, morally evil, or morally neutral no matter WHO commits the action.

When I drink a glass of water, that is a morally neutral act. If I feed a hungry person, that is a morally good act. If I lie, that is a morally evil act.

Morality is objective. It is a truth and standard that exists outside ourselves and applies to all peoples, times, and places.

A Christian who commits adultery has committed moral evil just as an atheist who commits adultery has committed moral evil. If an atheist (or Buddhist, etc.) commits an objectively morally good act--he/she has committed a good act.

God doesn't suspend moral goodness just because an atheist does a morally good act. The danger in thinking this is that it leads to morality by divine dictate--something is good or evil because God dictates it so (this is more common in Islam, not Christianity). Christians do not hold to morality by divine dictate, but instead hold that morality is objective and absolute, and God upholds and enforces moral truths.

 

[MrsHaseeb]

You know, it's not even about the pope and Catholicism or 'attack' on the faith. If any other Christian leader or minister had said that, I assure you, we'd still have this discussion.

This.. thank you Laela. This point is exactly why I didn't understand why some were automatically on the defense and why the claims that some of the sisters are unloving. You can't separate love of the brethren from the Church because the Church is a body of Spirit filled believers that can cross any denominational line as we only know in part now and are growing to the measure of the fullness of the stature of Christ. Who knows what Jesus will do with all Holy Spirit filled believers as the end time sequences unfold. A set of doctrines is not the Church and no one is obligated to agree with them. Disagreeing doesn't mean there is a lack of love.

And, it doesn't matter what we have been taught about redemption, it truly must be weighed against the Bible and the Bible plainly states that only those in Christ are redeemed and inherit the final redemption.

 

[MrsHaseeb]

Duplicate.