The Real Consequences of Atheism

[momi]

This is fairly long but definitely worth the time spent reading. Especially if you are interested or involved in apologetics and/or have children. Half of our oldest child's first year of school was spent fighting for his faith. It's important that they are able to defend their faith.

An atheist blogger gets brutally honest about his view and tells other atheists to quit fooling themselves.

Quote from the article:

We deride the Theists for having created myths and holy books. We imagine ourselves superior. But we too imagine there are reasons to obey laws, be polite, protect the weak etc. Rubbish. We are nurturing a new religion, one where we imagine that such conventions have any basis in reality. Have they allowed life to exist? Absolutely. But who cares? Outside of my greedy little gene’s need to reproduce, there is nothing in my world that stops me from killing you and reproducing with your wife. Only the fear that I might be incarcerated and thus be deprived of the opportunity to do the same with the next guy’s wife stops me. Some of my Atheist friends have fooled themselves into acting like the general population.[2] They live in suburban homes, drive Toyota Camrys, attend school plays. But underneath they know the truth. They are a bag of DNA whose only purpose is to make more of themselves. So be nice if you want. Be involved, have polite conversations, be a model citizen. Just be aware that while technically an Atheist, you are an inferior one. You’re just a little bit less evolved, that’s all. When you are ready to join me, let me know, I’ll be reproducing with your wife.

I know it’s not PC to speak so bluntly about the ramifications of our beliefs, but in our discussions with Theists we sometimes tip toe around what we really know to be factual. Maybe it’s time we Atheists were a little more truthful and let the chips fall where they may. At least that’s what my genes are telling me to say.





Read more: http://www.reasonablefaith.org/the-real-consequences-of-atheism#ixzz2wEdhpXK6

 

[Galadriel]

Wow, thanks for sharing momi

I can't disagree with the guy.

This is one of the questions that I think many atheists are uncomfortable with--their worldview doesn't allow or justify objective morality and moral virtue--because there's no need for it. If there is no God and we are mere material products of chance, then there is no reason to be good or do good, esp. when there is no personal benefit involved.

 

[momi]

Wow, thanks for sharing momi I can't disagree with the guy. This is one of the questions that I think many atheists are uncomfortable with--their worldview doesn't allow or justify objective morality and moral virtue--because there's no need for it. If there is no God and we are mere material products of chance, then there is no reason to be good or do good, esp. when there is no personal benefit involved.

Exactly. There is no need for morality - at least until you are personally wronged.

I just appreciate the author's honesty here. If there is no Creator then there is no Lawgiver. If there is no Lawgiver then there is no "morality" and that leaves us all free to do whatever seems right to us personally - which all leads to chaos.

 

[curlicarib]

Exactly. There is no need for morality - at least until you are personally wronged.

I just appreciate the author's honesty here. If there is no Creator then there is no Lawgiver. If there is no Lawgiver then there is no "morality" and that leaves us all free to do whatever seems right to us personally - which all leads to chaos.

Actually, that's not true. And this is one athiest's view. Prior to a belief in your version of God, you think morality or law did not exist? People do not need a Higher Being to know right from wrong. You know right from wrong the moment you do, cause, or witness something hurtful being done to someone. One of the earlist examples of this is Hammurabi's Code. While there is discussion of how religion may have influenced this code, there is no references to religion within them. These laws are morality based. The "lawgiver" in this case was the king who did not consider himself a god or descended from a god.

Also, if a person does not believe in God does not mean that there is no need for morality in thier lives. What keeps a father home to raise his child? What prevents your neighbor, brother, sister from overpowering you and taking what yours? God? No, morality. And for many people that morality comes from empathy towards others and societal acceptablity.

 

[FreeIndeed]

Thank you for the post momi

This article brings to mind a discussion that I had with a staunch atheist, who defended bestiality as "morally benign" (unharmful). This particular person is one of the few atheists that I have seen take their worldview to its logical conclusion. If morality is subjective and a by product of evolution, then anything goes and one would be "illogical" or "irrational" to deem something objectively immoral.

This article also brought to mind the American humanist billboards which say "Millions are good without God." My immediate response after reading it was "Well. . . what is the definition of "good" in a universe where there is no God, and therefore no objective standard of good and evil? Who is the authority on such things? What is the measuring stick?" Their own hearts I guess? The heart is deceitful and desperately wicked. Who can know it?

Even more problematic are professing Christians who espouse moral relativism. This mentality and philosophy has spread within the Christian community unfortunately. This is why it is so important for us to be knowledgeable and grounded in the teaching of Jesus Christ, and have an awareness of the philosophies and religions around us.

 

[Galadriel]

Actually, that's not true. And this is one athiest's view. Prior to a belief in your version of God, you think morality or law did not exist?

Of course not. Morality is Objective--which means it exists in all times and in all places for all people.

Morality exists because we live in a moral universe with moral laws (just as there are physical laws of gravity, there are moral laws).

Furthermore, there is a lawgiver--God.

People do not need a Higher Being to know right from wrong.

It is the Higher Being who engraved in our hearts the moral law to begin with. The fact that whether I'm in America, or Asia, or a tribe on a remote island, and we are all able to say, "Do not unjustly kill," "Honor your parents/elders" proves that humanity has been instilled with the moral law. In Catholicism, we call this, the "Natural Law," because it's ingrained in human nature. However, there are "Divine Laws" which must be revealed to us directly by God and which we couldn't have expressed or created on our own, such as the First Commandment (for example).

You know right from wrong the moment you do, cause, or witness something hurtful being done to someone.

But WHY?

No one here denies that humans make moral judgments and can witness acts that are either morally good or bad. But the question is why? Morality has laws, and moral actions are means to ends. And sometimes people deny morality, or embrace bad morals.

Also, if a person does not believe in God does not mean that there is no need for morality in thier lives.

An atheist can have a moral code, but he has to take his moral code from somewhere outside himself--again, morality is objective and exists outside ourselves. I would also point out that often atheists can embrace mistaken or bad morals.

And for many people that morality comes from empathy towards others and societal acceptablity.

Empathy is an emotion, but not strong enough of an emotion to impose morality, nor is empathy the creator or explainer of morality. Also, what happens when a person fails or chooses not to empathize with another person (such as a person whom they hate)? What about people who believe that those who are weaker than them deserve to be overtaken or taken advantage of?

 

[Galadriel]

Ladies,

Remember going to the movie theater a while back and seeing those anti-piracy commercials. Big white letters would flash across the screen: "DON'T BUY PIRATED MOVIES," followed up by, "IT'S AGAINST THE LAW." and when that didn't work, they put a cameraman in front of us discussing how pirated DVDs meant a loss of revenue, and small guys like him in the movie industry got the short end of the stick--so, you know, don't pirate!

This is how I feel a "We can have morality without God" type of morality attempts to work. If I'm a bootlegger, I don't care. As long as I can get away with it and evade human authority or reprimand, then why not bootleg and make money? "Piracy is against the law so don't do it" is laughable (to such a person) because there is nothing to compel me to turn away other than actual imprisonment. And who knows, piracy might become cool or respected, or not such a big deal in 30 years--people's standards change all the time, right?

---

This is my problem with subjective morality, and the "You can't do X because it's wrong, and X is wrong because it's wrong," because they want to benefit from Judeo-Christian morality which has been ingrained in our culture, yet they want to replace the actual meat of it with a "moral system" that is subjective, or doesn't know how to explain WHY I should not pirate, or steal, or defraud someone, or lie.

 

[momi]

Actually, that's not true. And this is one athiest's view. Prior to a belief in your version of God, you think morality or law did not exist? People do not need a Higher Being to know right from wrong. You know right from wrong the moment you do, cause, or witness something hurtful being done to someone. One of the earlist examples of this is Hammurabi's Code. While there is discussion of how religion may have influenced this code, there is no references to religion within them. These laws are morality based. The "lawgiver" in this case was the king who did not consider himself a god or descended from a god.

Also, if a person does not believe in God does not mean that there is no need for morality in thier lives. What keeps a father home to raise his child? What prevents your neighbor, brother, sister from overpowering you and taking what yours? God? No, morality. And for many people that morality comes from empathy towards others and societal acceptablity.

Hi Curlicrib - sorry I am just now seeing your reply.

Without a Lawgiver morality is only relative. It's doing what is right as you define it. There is no universal law of morality outside of God's laws and I would argue that the virtues you have mentioned above come from God writing his laws on our hearts. This is how we truly know right from wrong.

God's law of right and wrong is known instinctively. Unfortunately many people attribute this to other sources but it ultimately comes from Our Creator.

 

[momi]

Thank you for the post momi

This article brings to mind a discussion that I had with a staunch atheist, who defended bestiality as "morally benign" (unharmful). This particular person is one of the few atheists that I have seen take their worldview to its logical conclusion. If morality is subjective and a by product of evolution, then anything goes and one would be "illogical" or "irrational" to deem something objectively immoral.

This article also brought to mind the American humanist billboards which say "Millions are good without God." My immediate response after reading it was "Well. . . what is the definition of "good" in a universe where there is no God, and therefore no objective standard of good and evil? Who is the authority on such things? What is the measuring stick?" Their own hearts I guess? The heart is deceitful and desperately wicked. Who can know it?

Even more problematic are professing Christians who espouse moral relativism. This mentality and philosophy has spread within the Christian community unfortunately. This is why it is so important for us to be knowledgeable and grounded in the teaching of Jesus Christ, and have an awareness of the philosophies and religions around us.

Exactly - we are all "good" in our own eyes. If I compare myself to the lowest of humanity I would consider myself bright, shining, and holy - but compared to God's law my best is a filthy rag.

 

[momi]

Ladies,

Remember going to the movie theater a while back and seeing those anti-piracy commercials. Big white letters would flash across the screen: "DON'T BUY PIRATED MOVIES," followed up by, "IT'S AGAINST THE LAW." and when that didn't work, they put a cameraman in front of us discussing how pirated DVDs meant a loss of revenue, and small guys like him in the movie industry got the short end of the stick--so, you know, don't pirate!

This is how I feel a "We can have morality without God" type of morality attempts to work. If I'm a bootlegger, I don't care. As long as I can get away with it and evade human authority or reprimand, then why not bootleg and make money? "Piracy is against the law so don't do it" is laughable (to such a person) because there is nothing to compel me to turn away other than actual imprisonment. And who knows, piracy might become cool or respected, or not such a big deal in 30 years--people's standards change all the time, right?

---

This is my problem with subjective morality, and the "You can't do X because it's wrong, and X is wrong because it's wrong," because they want to benefit from Judeo-Christian morality which has been ingrained in our culture, yet they want to replace the actual meat of it with a "moral system" that is subjective, or doesn't know how to explain WHY I should not pirate, or steal, or defraud someone, or lie.

Thank you Galadriel!

 

[itsallaboutattitude]

This guy in the OP does not speak for me.

Here is my truth

- Religion is a construct of MAN
- made by men so that people could LIVE TOGETHER in a society without anarchy.

God is an alien, and we are living under a microscope.

 

[itsallaboutattitude]

After thinking about this a little further, I wouldn't be surprised if this person was some kind of religious troll pretending to be an atheist.

We are such a small minority in this country and around the world. Who really is concerned with us? Who really fears us?

The specific example about coveting and sexing another mans wife seems so odd to me. Every example in real life where I've seen this happen, both people were of some religious faith.

Religion is all about competition and being better than the "other" in my opinion. I ain't about that life. Live and let live.

God is an alien, and we are living under a microscope.

 

[momi]

After thinking about this a little further, I wouldn't be surprised if this person was some kind of religious troll pretending to be an atheist.

I'm not sure what purpose that would serve - and even if it were true it doesn't make his conclusions less valid.

We are such a small minority in this country and around the world. Who really is concerned with us? Who really fears us?

Noone that I know of. The link to the blog that I posted is a Christian responding to the atheist's comments in his blog.


The specific example about coveting and sexing another mans wife seems so odd to me. Every example in real life where I've seen this happen, both people were of some religious faith.

Are you claiming not to know any atheists that cheat or have cheated on their spouses?

Religion is all about competition and being better than the "other" in my opinion. I ain't about that life. Live and let live.

I've known people who have this mindset - until something happens to affect them personally. Honestly, what if someone broke into your house? God forbid harmed someone in your family? Would you still believe in "Live and let live?"

 

[itsallaboutattitude]

In my personal life I only know and socialize with one other atheist. So I have no personal experience with the general atheist population in my city state or USA. I don't seek them out to bond with them.

As I stated before - maybe I wasn't clear - I see religion as a foundation for secular laws. It served its purpose to create a set of laws people could and can live in society together.

I believe that men in robes created those laws and said a higher power will intervene if they are broken. In reality, when a man or woman cheats, in addition to divorce (secular penalty), there is a secular penalty placed on the cheater in the community. This happens if your are religious or not. god didn't intervene to apprehend the man who broke into my and my neighbors house. It was the police. god is not the judge and jury in his case.

My parents taught me right from wrong. My mother took me to church. I was baptized took communion. All those teachings don't go away just because I say I am an atheist.

For those people who claim to be am atheist and into bestiality - I question their home life and how they were raised and what they were exposed to. I believe we are born a blank slate. Who we become has a direct link to nurture and nature. How you are being raised and who you are exposed to.

A persons religion doesn't protect them from the pedophile or rapist or murder sitting right next to them in their church.

We all walk thru life either with some level of trust of those around us. OR we walk thru life in some heightened state of paranoia of those who are perceived as other. It's finding a balance between the two is where I live.

Trying not to nitpick and find extreme examples of any and everything to judge in others. Live and let live. God is an alien, and we are living under a microscope.

 

[Farida]

I believe at the very basic level we know right from wrong because God puts it in our hearts. Even before you tell a kid what is wrong or right you find them hiding, lying and manipulating to hide something they did that was wrong. We don't need a law to tell us that murdering infants for fun is wrong. It invokes something in us...this sense of fair and unfair, justice.

Now,when it comes to the more complicated things, the nuances...and as we grow and develop our intellect and reason our evil nature becomes a force to reckon with and overtakes the basic idea of wrong and right.

But I do think moral relativism is a dangerous thing. I believe that many of the most evil people in this world are not just people who enjoy doing the "wrong thing," rather they have convinced themselves that what they are doing is right...or at least not as bad or justified by circumstance. And this is also something that Christians do, unfortunately.

When people amass wealth and power....absolute power corrupts absolutely and throw moral relativism in the mix and all he'll breaks loose.

 

[Iwanthealthyhair67]

^^some christians

 

[JaneBond007]

We need His law because He loves justice and this whole microcosm is part of His courtroom We humans need absolutes and we cannot comprehend the importance of those laws of right/wrong written on our hearts without His written laws. Moral relativism is what every society practices. There are just some people who have the grace to recognize the dangers and steer clear from it. Most people are in the middle, depending upon the circumstances. The purer souls who see more clearly than others might just be the ones who keep His justice from destroying us all, as with Lot. These are just my own thoughts.

 

[Laela]

It boggles the mind, the effort it takes someone to disprove something they don't' even believe exists in the first place.

 

[BlkOnyx488]

This Guy is F.O.S. Perhaps in his own heart he wants to Kill his Neighbor, and rape the man's wife. But that's his issue and I hope he seeks help for that

Atheism is NOT a world view. Atheism is simply a non-belief in the super natural. That's it. What one individual Atheist believes or thinks has no bearing on any other atheist.

Now as far as not Killing and raping. Prisons are full of Theist who have Killed and Rape. As a matter of Fact in America, the Prision population is Largely Theist.

The susposed Satistic is America is 95% Theist. That means the odds of a Theist going around raping and killing are much much greater.

If god is such a bastian for good why are so many theist in prison?
Why do so many theist beat their Children, Cheat on their spouses, beat their wives and use the babble as the justification for that?

Name one case of someone who was formly a Theist, who then became Atheist and proceeded to go on a killing spree. Name one!

When you go from theist to atheist NOTHING else about you changes. If you were going to kill someone as an atheist, you would do as a theist.

Accepting that you are an Atheist, is no different than excepting you don't believe in Santa, Zeus, Ra, Allah, etc... so to say that a moral compass, what, just shuts off or something, is stupid.


Again we live in a Country that Claims to be 95% THEIST, that means that if Belief in a god was all one needed to maintain Morality, Our Prisons would be virtually EMPTY.

 

[momi]

This Guy is F.O.S. Perhaps in his own heart he wants to Kill his Neighbor, and rape the man's wife. But that's his issue and I hope he seeks help for that Atheism is NOT a world view. Atheism is simply a non-belief in the super natural. That's it. What one individual Atheist believes or thinks has no bearing on any other atheist. Now as far as not Killing and raping. Prisons are full of Theist who have Killed and Rape. As a matter of Fact in America, the Prision population is Largely Theist. The susposed Satistic is America is 95% Theist. That means the odds of a Theist going around raping and killing are much much greater. If god is such a bastian for good why are so many theist in prison? Why do so many theist beat their Children, Cheat on their spouses, beat their wives and use the babble as the justification for that? Name one case of someone who was formly a Theist, who then became Atheist and proceeded to go on a killing spree. Name one! When you go from theist to atheist NOTHING else about you changes. If you were going to kill someone as an atheist, you would do as a theist. Accepting that you are an Atheist, is no different than excepting you don't believe in Santa, Zeus, Ra, Allah, etc... so to say that a moral compass, what, just shuts off or something, is stupid. Again we live in a Country that Claims to be 95% THEIST, that means that if Belief in a god was all one needed to maintain Morality, Our Prisons would be virtually EMPTY.

Acknowledgment of a truth doesn't always mean a person has to abide by it. Your argument is nonsense. I know if I want to lose weight I need to reduce my caloric intake - but here I am in the drive-thru at Chick Fil- A getting ice cream. People make choices.

Secondly if there is no moral code what makes murder or husband snatching wrong? The author is saying as an atheist he is free to do whatever he desires without any moral code to live by and he is right on point.

 

[BlkOnyx488]

Acknowledgment of a truth doesn't always mean a person has to abide by it. Your argument is nonsense. I know if I want to lose weight I need to reduce my caloric intake - but here I am in the drive-thru at Chick Fil- A getting ice cream. People make choices.

Secondly if there is no moral code what makes murder or husband snatching wrong? The author is saying as an atheist he is free to do whatever he desires without any moral code to live by and he is right on point.

momi "People make Choices", so that dismisses the so called theist moral code completely. That means the Atheist and Theist are free to do whatever they Choose. Just as you are free to eat at Chick-fil-a.

 

[JaneBond007]

Objective state?

 

[Galadriel]

@momi "People make Choices", so that dismisses the so called theist moral code completely. That means the Atheist and Theist are free to do whatever they Choose. Just as you are free to eat at Chick-fil-a.

Sin is the disobedience of the moral law. People sin--even those who believe God exists. The existence of sin only shows that there IS an objective moral law that is being violated.

 

[BlkOnyx488]

Sin is the disobedience of the moral law. People sin--even those who believe God exists. The existence of sin only shows that there IS an objective moral law that is being violated.

Galadriel That makes the Moral Code optional and Useless. Prehaps the only reason Some theist aren't sinning is simply because they have choosen not to, not because of fear of the Code, but because they are just making a personal choice to not do bad things, just like Atheist

 

[itsallaboutattitude]

Galadriel That makes the Moral Code optional and Useless. Prehaps the only reason Some theist aren't sinning is simply because they have choosen not to, not because of fear of the Code, but because they are just making a personal choice to not do bad things, just like Atheist

Or they haven't been caught as yet ie murder thief or adulterer.

God is an alien, and we are living under a microscope.

 

[BlkOnyx488]

Or they haven't been caught as yet ie murder thief or adulterer.

God is an alien, and we are living under a microscope.

itsallaboutattitude BTK was serial Killer who Never missed Church. but in his free time He was killing people all over the country for Decades.

It was people who stopped him, not the God Alien.

I bet the God Alien has a a really cool lab coat

 

[itsallaboutattitude]

itsallaboutattitude BTK was serial Killer who Never missed Church. but in his free time He was killing people all over the country for Decades. It was people who stopped him, not the God Alien. I bet the God Alien has a a really cool lab coat

Lol.

God is an alien, and we are living under a microscope.

 

[Laela]

@ the bolded, you are correct; Christians choose not to sin, by accepting Christ and yielding to the Holy Spirit. It's a personal choice of life and not death. Therefore, they are motivated by Love and not fear. So you are correct.

Atheists, too, have the power of choice. That's the only commonality.

God offers to all, even atheists, life and death, though He hopes everyone chooses Life. In my experience, I've learned some atheists know, or have known, the truth and choose to fight it for whatever reason. Some know more Scripture than the most earnest of Christians. I lived with one. It's tragic, actually. But my prayer is always that others seek God with all their heart and not look so much at what man is doing. He desires our love and attention and deserves it. I have to ask, why is it so important to you, that you feel the need to justify an alien God doesn't exist? He clearly does. You are discussing Him with Christians.

Galadriel That makes the Moral Code optional and Useless. Prehaps the only reason Some theist aren't sinning is simply because they have choosen not to, not because of fear of the Code, but because they are just making a personal choice to not do bad things, just like Atheist

 

[Galadriel]

@Galadriel That makes the Moral Code optional and Useless. Prehaps the only reason Some theist aren't sinning is simply because they have choosen not to, not because of fear of the Code, but because they are just making a personal choice to not do bad things, just like Atheist

The Moral Law isn't optional or useless because people commit immoral acts. If a person commits a moral (or immoral) act, it demonstrates that the person, like all persons, have free will and are therefore *culpable* for their moral or immoral choice. Breaking the Moral Law is not without consequence. There are spiritual consequences (the defilement of the soul, the darkening of the intellect, the proclivity to continue in immorality or even worse immorality, Hell). There are temporal consequences to immoral acts (physical harm to one's body or well-being, prosecution and incarceration via the civil justice system, the loss of relationships or family, the loss of one's job, etc.)


I try to avoid sin, not merely from a personal preference, but first and foremost, sin (aka immorality, aka evil actions) offends God and His Moral Law. The greatest commandment is to love the Lord our God with all our heart, mind, soul and strength. Secondly, I try to avoid sin because Christ paid for my Redemption with His Blood. If I am to call myself a follower of Christ and a child of God--I ought to live like it. Thirdly, I try to avoid sin because I do not want to lose Heaven and endure Hell.

All of us are sinners. None of us are perfect. So I am not surprised that an atheist, Christian, Muslim, Jew, Pagan, or whoever else sins. We are fallen creatures. We are all sinners. But because we choose to sin, doesn't mean there isn't an objective Moral Law, nor any consequences. The fact that we are even able to acknowledge that we sin and fall short of a standard is a testament.

This is why Christ came to die for us--for our sins. He grants us forgiveness upon repentance, and the Holy Spirit gives us the supernatural grace to avoid sin.

No one will be able to avoid sin without the supernatural grace of God. Catholics tend to call this the "state of grace." We damage or chip away at our state of grace when we commit venial sins, and fall from a state of grace when we commit mortal sin. Hence the need for repentance and confession.

Sorry, I'm getting a little sidetracked. But my point is that the atheist can choose and acknowledge morally good actions, because God CREATED us or hardwired us as human beings to acknowledge and choose between good and evil. The problem is that because we are broken, we often choose immorality, often out of weakness, and sometimes out of malice.

 

[BlkOnyx488]

@ the bolded, you are correct; Christians choose not to sin, by accepting Christ and yielding to the Holy Spirit. It's a personal choice of life and not death. Therefore, they are motivated by Love and not fear. So you are correct.

Atheists, too, have the power of choice. That's the only commonality.

God offers to all, even atheists, life and death, though He hopes everyone chooses Life. In my experience, I've learned some atheists know, or have known, the truth and choose to fight it for whatever reason. Some know more Scripture than the most earnest of Christians. I lived with one. It's tragic, actually. But my prayer is always that others seek God with all their heart and not look so much at what man is doing. He desires our love and attention and deserves it. I have to ask, why is it so important to you, that you feel the need to justify an alien God doesn't exist? He clearly does. You are discussing Him with Christians.

Laela Theist posted an article about Atheist. I merely came in here to refute the article, not discuss Christianity with Christians.
Although I am not opposed to that. However these Conversation tend to not go well, because Christians are so emtionaly invested in their belief, anyone that speaks out against the Christian Belief is accused of Attacking, then the Atheist usually gets threatened with eternal hayle fire or something.

So if theist are free to discuss Atheist, atheist should be free to discuss Atheist and theist.