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kanozas
se ven las caras pero nunca el corazón
Question: Did the Early Church Christians subscribe to 'sola scriptura' (bible-only)?
Disclaimer: provided for study and reflection and fact-finding for those who often wonder how and why we arrive at what we arrive at
Link
Did the Early Christians Subscribe to Sola Scriptura?
A Protestant Misunderstanding
By: Jennifer Hay
The issue of authority remains the most fundamental source of division between Catholics and Protestants. Mainline Protestants (Lutherans, Presbyterians, Anglicans, Episcopalians, Methodists, etc.) do not reject tradition or ecclesial authority; indeed, they have a high regard for both and believe that Scripture can only be interpreted correctly within the context of the creeds of the early Church. However, Protestants believe that only Scripture is exempt from the possibility of teaching error. Consequently, when the Protestant senses a conflict between Scripture and the authoritative teachings of a church, he feels a moral obligation to go with (his interpretation of) Scripture. Although sola scriptura is difficult to define rigorously, this obligation is an essential aspect of the doctrine.
Did Reformers Just Get It Wrong?
The most common Catholic argument against sola scriptura is that it has splintered the Church. Thousands of Protestant denominations exist today, each one claiming to interpret Scripture by the guidance of the Holy Spirit. In his book The Shape of Sola Scriptura, Protestant Keith Mathison defends the doctrine but admits, "There is no doubt that hermeneutical anarchy reigns in much of Protestantism" (305). Mathison offers several reasons for the apparent failure:
What about its workability during Protestantism’s "relatively brief life-span"? We cannot point to the same kind of practical success of Tradition I [sola scriptura] over the last five centuries for several reasons. First, the Reformation occurred long after the Church had initially split, and this initial split created problems which the Reformation could not possibly solve immediately. Second, the rather rapid substitution of solo scriptura for sola scriptura within Protestant circles led to the rapid fragmentation of Protestantism. Third, the radical individualism of the Enlightenment in Western Europe contributed to the weakening of virtually every branch of Christendom. (290) [Note: Mathison uses the term "solo scriptura" to describe the Protestant tendency to interpret Scripture apart from its historical and theological context.]
After offering these explanations, Mathison goes on to argue that, although sola scriptura has not enjoyed practical success since the Reformation, we can be sure that the problem is not with the doctrine itself, because sola scriptura was the guiding principle of the earliest Christians. (This view is common among mainline Protestant theologians; Mathison’s book was endorsed by R.C. Sproul.) Mathison’s explanation is actually a response to an essay by Patrick Madrid, a Catholic apologist:
If Madrid is asking about Tradition I, which was framed by the classical Reformers in terms of sola scriptura, then the response to his request for "just one" example of when it has worked would be the first three to four hundred years of the Church. This was a time prior to the existence of either of the positions Rome has advocated for the last five hundred years, and Tradition I [sola scriptura] worked fine . . . It worked without a universal bishop, and it worked without any claims to ecclesiastical infallibility. (The Shape of Sola Scriptura, 290)
By "worked fine," I shall assume that Mathison means "preserved orthodoxy." So, as a case study in ecclesial authority, we shall examine how orthodoxy was preserved in the early Church on the issue of what constitutes a valid Christian baptism.
Cyprian’s Concern
Today, mainline Protestants and Catholics agree as to what constitutes a valid Christian baptism. Protestants and Catholics agree that baptism is valid if it involves the application of water and is performed in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit with the intention of doing what Jesus commanded. Therefore, it is against God’s intentions for a person ever to undergo this rite twice. I can attest to this unity: I was baptized in a Baptist church. During my adult life I have been Presbyterian, Lutheran, and Catholic, and no one ever suggested that my baptism was anything other than valid. We may take such unity for granted today, but there was a time in the early Church when it was seriously threatened.
Between A.D. 254 and 257, when St. Stephen was the bishop of Rome, the issue of what constitutes a valid Christian baptism arose in the Church. At the time, there were several heretical sects, among which were the Novatians. When people who had been baptized by clergy of the Novatians and other heretical sects desired admission to the Church, the question arose as to whether they ought to be re-baptized. We know about this debate from letters of St. Cyprian, the bishop of North Africa, and Firmilian, the bishop of Caesarea. St. Cyprian and Firmilian both insisted that these converts should be baptized, because what the heretics called baptism was invalid. St. Cyprian was especially prolific on the subject and addressed it in many of his letters. The following excerpt is typical of his position:
Cyprian to Jubaianus his brother, greeting. You have written to me, dearest brother, wishing that the impression of my mind should be signified to you, as to what I think concerning the baptism of heretics; who, placed without, and established outside the Church, arrogate to themselves a matter neither within their right nor their power. This baptism we cannot consider as valid or legitimate, since it is manifestly unlawful among them . . . we established this same matter once more by our judgment, deciding that there is one baptism which is appointed in the Catholic Church; and that by this those are not re-baptized, but baptized by us, who at any time come from the adulterous and unhallowed water to be washed and sanctified by the truth of the saving water. (Epistle 72:1)
Firmilian, the bishop of Caesarea, was of the same mind as St. Cyprian on the matter:
Moreover, all other heretics, if they have separated themselves from the Church of God, can have nothing of power or of grace, since all power and grace are established in the Church where the elders preside, who possess the power both of baptizing, and of imposition of hands, and of ordaining. For as a heretic may not lawfully ordain nor lay on hands, so neither may he baptize, nor do any thing holily or spiritually, since he is an alien from spiritual and deifying sanctity. (Epistle 74:7)
Peter Has Spoken
Although no letters from St. Stephen have survived, we can surmise his position from communications between St. Cyprian and Firmilian. St. Stephen took the position that any baptism performed in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit was valid, regardless of the heretical status of the minister. A letter from Firmilian to St. Cyprian regarding St. Stephen’s decision reads:
That, moreover, is absurd, that they do not think it is to be inquired who was the person that baptized, for the reason that he who has been baptized may have obtained grace by the invocation of the Trinity, of the names of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost . . . But who in the Church is perfect and wise who can either defend or believe this, that this bare invocation of names is sufficient to the remission of sins and the sanctification of baptism; since these things are only then of advantage, when both he who baptizes has the Holy Spirit, and the baptism itself also is not ordained without the Spirit? But, say they, he who in any manner whatever is baptized without, may obtain the grace of baptism by his disposition and faith, which doubtless is ridiculous in itself, as if either a wicked disposition could attract to itself from heaven the sanctification of the righteous, or a false faith the truth of believers. (Epistle 74:9)
In the very same letter of Firmilian, we learn that St. Stephen asserted his authority as Peter’s successor to make this decision. The language clearly recalls Matthew 16:18, albeit sarcastically:
And in this respect I am justly indignant at this so open and manifest folly of Stephen, that he who so boasts of the place of his episcopate, and contends that he holds the succession from Peter, on whom the foundations of the Church were laid, should introduce many other rocks and establish new buildings of many churches; maintaining that there is baptism in them by his authority . . . Stephen, who announces that he holds by succession the throne of Peter, is stirred with no zeal against heretics, when he concedes to them, not a moderate, but the very greatest power of grace: so far as to say and assert that, by the sacrament of baptism, the filth of the old man is washed away by them, that they pardon the former mortal sins, that they make sons of God by heavenly regeneration, and renew to eternal life by the sanctification of the divine layer. (Epistle 74:17)
Dashed on the Rock
St. Cyprian and Firmilian appeal copiously to Scripture in defense of their position. For example, in the following excerpt St. Cyprian sounds like a modern-day Protestant:
Let nothing be innovated, says [Stephen], nothing maintained, except what has been handed down. Whence is that tradition? Whether does it descend from the authority of the Lord and of the Gospel, or does it come from the commands and the epistles of the apostles? For that those things which are written must be done, God witnesses and admonishes, saying to Joshua the son of Nun: "The book of this law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate in it day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein." (Epistle 73:2)
And indeed, Firmilian seems to have no special reverence for Roman authority: "They who are at Rome do not observe those things in all cases which are handed down from the beginning, and vainly pretend the authority of the apostles" (Epistle 74:6).
Incredibly, in The Shape of Sola Scriptura, Mathison cites the two preceding quotes from St. Cyprian and Firmilian as evidence that sola scriptura was the guiding principle for the early Church Fathers. But these quotes are taken out of context from an argument in which St. Cyprian and Firmilian were wrong, according to the mainline Protestant position.
Moreover, according to Firmilian, St. Stephen stood alone:
Moreover, how great sin have you heaped up for yourself, when you cut yourself off from so many flocks! For it is yourself that you have cut off. Do not deceive yourself, since he is really the schismatic who has made himself an apostate from the communion of ecclesiastical unity. For while you think that all may be excommunicated by you, you have excommunicated yourself alone from all. (Epistle 74:24)
The Africans persisted in the practice of re-baptism, despite St. Stephen’s instruction. About 70 years later, in A.D. 314, a council of western bishops was convoked by Constantine at Arles. The primary purpose of the council was to deal with another heretical sect, the Donatists, but the council took the opportunity to direct the Africans to conform to Rome’s position on baptism (James T. Shotwell, The See of Peter, 482).
Unworkable, Then and Now
So on the issue of what constitutes valid Christian baptism, the facts are these:
1. There is no debate among Catholics and mainline Protestants as to what is orthodox.
2. St. Cyprian, Firmilian and others took the unorthodox position that the baptism of heretics and schismatics was invalid. They defended this position by appealing to (their interpretation of) Scripture over the authority of the Roman episcopate.
3. It was St. Stephen, the bishop of Rome from A.D. 254 to 257, who preserved orthodoxy by teaching the validity of any Trinitarian baptism. He asserted his authority as Peter’s successor to make this decision and enforce it under threat of excommunication.
St. Stephen’s decision must be the most underrated in Christian history, because we place our hope for Christian unity in our common baptism. Where would we be today if St. Cyprian and Firmilian had prevailed? Mainline Protestantism requires one to believe that Stephen indeed made a wise and scripturally sound decision on the issue of heretical baptism, but that he grossly misunderstood his authority as Peter’s successor to make and enforce that same decision. This is a difficult combination to reconcile.
St. Cyprian is a venerated saint for good reason—he loved God and his Word. From our post-Reformation perspective, it is easy to see St. Cyprian as the hard-liner in this debate. But his stance on the issue of baptism was motivated not by moral rigidity but by compassion. People who had been baptized by heretical clergy were truly distraught that they could not receive baptism in the one true Church. St. Cyprian shared their distress, and he wanted to give them an assurance of the forgiveness of their sins. But on this particular issue, he was wrong. That one as devout as St. Cyprian could make such a serious mistake should give pause to all thoughtful Christians.
And so we find that sola scriptura did not work in the early Church any better than it has in the last 500 years, because it is unworkable.
All Christians should pray for the reunification of the Church. Is there any doubt that this is the will of our Father? Our disunity presents a cacophonous witness to the world exactly when they most need to hear the clear voice of our Savior through us. With this attitude of prayer and mutual respect, we must strive to understand one another’s beliefs, trusting that in gaining this understanding, God will not allow us to be persuaded by falsehood. If we do this, we will be ready to greet our Savior as one Holy Church when he returns.
SIDEBAR
Views on Baptismal Unity
The mainline Protestant position is well represented by the words of the Lutheran Confessions (Triglot Concordia): The Large Catechism: Of Baptism, Paragraphs 3, 52-53, 77-78, and Apology of the Augsberg Confession: Articles VII and VIII (Of the Church), paragraph 28.
The Catholic position is articulated in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraphs 1271, 1278, and 1280.
Disclaimer: provided for study and reflection and fact-finding for those who often wonder how and why we arrive at what we arrive at
Link
Did the Early Christians Subscribe to Sola Scriptura?
A Protestant Misunderstanding
By: Jennifer Hay
The issue of authority remains the most fundamental source of division between Catholics and Protestants. Mainline Protestants (Lutherans, Presbyterians, Anglicans, Episcopalians, Methodists, etc.) do not reject tradition or ecclesial authority; indeed, they have a high regard for both and believe that Scripture can only be interpreted correctly within the context of the creeds of the early Church. However, Protestants believe that only Scripture is exempt from the possibility of teaching error. Consequently, when the Protestant senses a conflict between Scripture and the authoritative teachings of a church, he feels a moral obligation to go with (his interpretation of) Scripture. Although sola scriptura is difficult to define rigorously, this obligation is an essential aspect of the doctrine.
Did Reformers Just Get It Wrong?
The most common Catholic argument against sola scriptura is that it has splintered the Church. Thousands of Protestant denominations exist today, each one claiming to interpret Scripture by the guidance of the Holy Spirit. In his book The Shape of Sola Scriptura, Protestant Keith Mathison defends the doctrine but admits, "There is no doubt that hermeneutical anarchy reigns in much of Protestantism" (305). Mathison offers several reasons for the apparent failure:
What about its workability during Protestantism’s "relatively brief life-span"? We cannot point to the same kind of practical success of Tradition I [sola scriptura] over the last five centuries for several reasons. First, the Reformation occurred long after the Church had initially split, and this initial split created problems which the Reformation could not possibly solve immediately. Second, the rather rapid substitution of solo scriptura for sola scriptura within Protestant circles led to the rapid fragmentation of Protestantism. Third, the radical individualism of the Enlightenment in Western Europe contributed to the weakening of virtually every branch of Christendom. (290) [Note: Mathison uses the term "solo scriptura" to describe the Protestant tendency to interpret Scripture apart from its historical and theological context.]
After offering these explanations, Mathison goes on to argue that, although sola scriptura has not enjoyed practical success since the Reformation, we can be sure that the problem is not with the doctrine itself, because sola scriptura was the guiding principle of the earliest Christians. (This view is common among mainline Protestant theologians; Mathison’s book was endorsed by R.C. Sproul.) Mathison’s explanation is actually a response to an essay by Patrick Madrid, a Catholic apologist:
If Madrid is asking about Tradition I, which was framed by the classical Reformers in terms of sola scriptura, then the response to his request for "just one" example of when it has worked would be the first three to four hundred years of the Church. This was a time prior to the existence of either of the positions Rome has advocated for the last five hundred years, and Tradition I [sola scriptura] worked fine . . . It worked without a universal bishop, and it worked without any claims to ecclesiastical infallibility. (The Shape of Sola Scriptura, 290)
By "worked fine," I shall assume that Mathison means "preserved orthodoxy." So, as a case study in ecclesial authority, we shall examine how orthodoxy was preserved in the early Church on the issue of what constitutes a valid Christian baptism.
Cyprian’s Concern
Today, mainline Protestants and Catholics agree as to what constitutes a valid Christian baptism. Protestants and Catholics agree that baptism is valid if it involves the application of water and is performed in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit with the intention of doing what Jesus commanded. Therefore, it is against God’s intentions for a person ever to undergo this rite twice. I can attest to this unity: I was baptized in a Baptist church. During my adult life I have been Presbyterian, Lutheran, and Catholic, and no one ever suggested that my baptism was anything other than valid. We may take such unity for granted today, but there was a time in the early Church when it was seriously threatened.
Between A.D. 254 and 257, when St. Stephen was the bishop of Rome, the issue of what constitutes a valid Christian baptism arose in the Church. At the time, there were several heretical sects, among which were the Novatians. When people who had been baptized by clergy of the Novatians and other heretical sects desired admission to the Church, the question arose as to whether they ought to be re-baptized. We know about this debate from letters of St. Cyprian, the bishop of North Africa, and Firmilian, the bishop of Caesarea. St. Cyprian and Firmilian both insisted that these converts should be baptized, because what the heretics called baptism was invalid. St. Cyprian was especially prolific on the subject and addressed it in many of his letters. The following excerpt is typical of his position:
Cyprian to Jubaianus his brother, greeting. You have written to me, dearest brother, wishing that the impression of my mind should be signified to you, as to what I think concerning the baptism of heretics; who, placed without, and established outside the Church, arrogate to themselves a matter neither within their right nor their power. This baptism we cannot consider as valid or legitimate, since it is manifestly unlawful among them . . . we established this same matter once more by our judgment, deciding that there is one baptism which is appointed in the Catholic Church; and that by this those are not re-baptized, but baptized by us, who at any time come from the adulterous and unhallowed water to be washed and sanctified by the truth of the saving water. (Epistle 72:1)
Firmilian, the bishop of Caesarea, was of the same mind as St. Cyprian on the matter:
Moreover, all other heretics, if they have separated themselves from the Church of God, can have nothing of power or of grace, since all power and grace are established in the Church where the elders preside, who possess the power both of baptizing, and of imposition of hands, and of ordaining. For as a heretic may not lawfully ordain nor lay on hands, so neither may he baptize, nor do any thing holily or spiritually, since he is an alien from spiritual and deifying sanctity. (Epistle 74:7)
Peter Has Spoken
Although no letters from St. Stephen have survived, we can surmise his position from communications between St. Cyprian and Firmilian. St. Stephen took the position that any baptism performed in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit was valid, regardless of the heretical status of the minister. A letter from Firmilian to St. Cyprian regarding St. Stephen’s decision reads:
That, moreover, is absurd, that they do not think it is to be inquired who was the person that baptized, for the reason that he who has been baptized may have obtained grace by the invocation of the Trinity, of the names of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost . . . But who in the Church is perfect and wise who can either defend or believe this, that this bare invocation of names is sufficient to the remission of sins and the sanctification of baptism; since these things are only then of advantage, when both he who baptizes has the Holy Spirit, and the baptism itself also is not ordained without the Spirit? But, say they, he who in any manner whatever is baptized without, may obtain the grace of baptism by his disposition and faith, which doubtless is ridiculous in itself, as if either a wicked disposition could attract to itself from heaven the sanctification of the righteous, or a false faith the truth of believers. (Epistle 74:9)
In the very same letter of Firmilian, we learn that St. Stephen asserted his authority as Peter’s successor to make this decision. The language clearly recalls Matthew 16:18, albeit sarcastically:
And in this respect I am justly indignant at this so open and manifest folly of Stephen, that he who so boasts of the place of his episcopate, and contends that he holds the succession from Peter, on whom the foundations of the Church were laid, should introduce many other rocks and establish new buildings of many churches; maintaining that there is baptism in them by his authority . . . Stephen, who announces that he holds by succession the throne of Peter, is stirred with no zeal against heretics, when he concedes to them, not a moderate, but the very greatest power of grace: so far as to say and assert that, by the sacrament of baptism, the filth of the old man is washed away by them, that they pardon the former mortal sins, that they make sons of God by heavenly regeneration, and renew to eternal life by the sanctification of the divine layer. (Epistle 74:17)
Dashed on the Rock
St. Cyprian and Firmilian appeal copiously to Scripture in defense of their position. For example, in the following excerpt St. Cyprian sounds like a modern-day Protestant:
Let nothing be innovated, says [Stephen], nothing maintained, except what has been handed down. Whence is that tradition? Whether does it descend from the authority of the Lord and of the Gospel, or does it come from the commands and the epistles of the apostles? For that those things which are written must be done, God witnesses and admonishes, saying to Joshua the son of Nun: "The book of this law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate in it day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein." (Epistle 73:2)
And indeed, Firmilian seems to have no special reverence for Roman authority: "They who are at Rome do not observe those things in all cases which are handed down from the beginning, and vainly pretend the authority of the apostles" (Epistle 74:6).
Incredibly, in The Shape of Sola Scriptura, Mathison cites the two preceding quotes from St. Cyprian and Firmilian as evidence that sola scriptura was the guiding principle for the early Church Fathers. But these quotes are taken out of context from an argument in which St. Cyprian and Firmilian were wrong, according to the mainline Protestant position.
Moreover, according to Firmilian, St. Stephen stood alone:
Moreover, how great sin have you heaped up for yourself, when you cut yourself off from so many flocks! For it is yourself that you have cut off. Do not deceive yourself, since he is really the schismatic who has made himself an apostate from the communion of ecclesiastical unity. For while you think that all may be excommunicated by you, you have excommunicated yourself alone from all. (Epistle 74:24)
The Africans persisted in the practice of re-baptism, despite St. Stephen’s instruction. About 70 years later, in A.D. 314, a council of western bishops was convoked by Constantine at Arles. The primary purpose of the council was to deal with another heretical sect, the Donatists, but the council took the opportunity to direct the Africans to conform to Rome’s position on baptism (James T. Shotwell, The See of Peter, 482).
Unworkable, Then and Now
So on the issue of what constitutes valid Christian baptism, the facts are these:
1. There is no debate among Catholics and mainline Protestants as to what is orthodox.
2. St. Cyprian, Firmilian and others took the unorthodox position that the baptism of heretics and schismatics was invalid. They defended this position by appealing to (their interpretation of) Scripture over the authority of the Roman episcopate.
3. It was St. Stephen, the bishop of Rome from A.D. 254 to 257, who preserved orthodoxy by teaching the validity of any Trinitarian baptism. He asserted his authority as Peter’s successor to make this decision and enforce it under threat of excommunication.
St. Stephen’s decision must be the most underrated in Christian history, because we place our hope for Christian unity in our common baptism. Where would we be today if St. Cyprian and Firmilian had prevailed? Mainline Protestantism requires one to believe that Stephen indeed made a wise and scripturally sound decision on the issue of heretical baptism, but that he grossly misunderstood his authority as Peter’s successor to make and enforce that same decision. This is a difficult combination to reconcile.
St. Cyprian is a venerated saint for good reason—he loved God and his Word. From our post-Reformation perspective, it is easy to see St. Cyprian as the hard-liner in this debate. But his stance on the issue of baptism was motivated not by moral rigidity but by compassion. People who had been baptized by heretical clergy were truly distraught that they could not receive baptism in the one true Church. St. Cyprian shared their distress, and he wanted to give them an assurance of the forgiveness of their sins. But on this particular issue, he was wrong. That one as devout as St. Cyprian could make such a serious mistake should give pause to all thoughtful Christians.
And so we find that sola scriptura did not work in the early Church any better than it has in the last 500 years, because it is unworkable.
All Christians should pray for the reunification of the Church. Is there any doubt that this is the will of our Father? Our disunity presents a cacophonous witness to the world exactly when they most need to hear the clear voice of our Savior through us. With this attitude of prayer and mutual respect, we must strive to understand one another’s beliefs, trusting that in gaining this understanding, God will not allow us to be persuaded by falsehood. If we do this, we will be ready to greet our Savior as one Holy Church when he returns.
SIDEBAR
Views on Baptismal Unity
The mainline Protestant position is well represented by the words of the Lutheran Confessions (Triglot Concordia): The Large Catechism: Of Baptism, Paragraphs 3, 52-53, 77-78, and Apology of the Augsberg Confession: Articles VII and VIII (Of the Church), paragraph 28.
The Catholic position is articulated in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraphs 1271, 1278, and 1280.
kanozas
se ven las caras pero nunca el corazón
Question: To the question of whether 'sola scriptura' is biblical or not, can you defend catholicism? ****PLEASE DO NOT QUOTE AND CREATE A NEW POST*******
https://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/SOLASCRI.TXT
Article is long but here's an excerpt. Please click the link to read it in its entirety:
-----------------------------------------
Sola scriptura: A Blueprint for Anarchy
The Catholic case against sola scripture may be summarized by
saying that sola scripture is unhistorical, unbiblical and
unworkable.
by Patrick Madrid
Let's say I'm an Evangelical. When I find out you're Catholic, I'm
going to hammer you with Bible verses that I believe demonstrate
that the Catholic Church's teachings on issues such as purgatory,
Mary, the papacy, and the Eucharist are unbiblical. "The Bible
alone provides the totality of God's revealed truth that's
necessary for the Church to have. Forget about all those man-made
Catholic traditions (traditions which, by the way, are condemned
by Christ in Matthew 15:3-9 end Mark 7:6-8). Just go by the Bible
alone," I'll argue.
Let's say you're hip to this argument. You know that the
Protestant principle of the Bible alone-<sola scriptura>, as the
Reformers called it-is untrue. But you don't know how to
demonstrate that <sola scriptura> is not what Christ taught, it's
not what the apostles and Church Fathers taught and, most
ironically, it's not what the Bible itself teaches.
Catholics need to realize just how untenable <sola scriptura> is
and simply ask that it be proven from the Bible. Instead of
allowing himself to be put on the defensive when purgatory, the
Real Presence, or some other Catholic doctrine1 is challenged by a
demand that <it> be proven from Scripture, the Catholic should
ask, "Where does the Bible teach <sola scriptura>?"
The Catholic case against <sola scriptura> may be summarized by
saying that <sola scriptura> is unhistorical, unbiblical and
unworkable. This article will examine each of these points,
without claiming to offer an exhaustive historical and biblical
critique of the doctrine (there are a number of books and tape
sets which do that). Nevertheless, I hope the essential elements
of the Catholic case will be clear.
SOLA SCPIPTURA IS UNHISTORICAL
First, let's consider <sola scriptura> from the vantage point of
history.......<Link>
https://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/SOLASCRI.TXT
Article is long but here's an excerpt. Please click the link to read it in its entirety:
-----------------------------------------
Sola scriptura: A Blueprint for Anarchy
The Catholic case against sola scripture may be summarized by
saying that sola scripture is unhistorical, unbiblical and
unworkable.
by Patrick Madrid
Let's say I'm an Evangelical. When I find out you're Catholic, I'm
going to hammer you with Bible verses that I believe demonstrate
that the Catholic Church's teachings on issues such as purgatory,
Mary, the papacy, and the Eucharist are unbiblical. "The Bible
alone provides the totality of God's revealed truth that's
necessary for the Church to have. Forget about all those man-made
Catholic traditions (traditions which, by the way, are condemned
by Christ in Matthew 15:3-9 end Mark 7:6-8). Just go by the Bible
alone," I'll argue.
Let's say you're hip to this argument. You know that the
Protestant principle of the Bible alone-<sola scriptura>, as the
Reformers called it-is untrue. But you don't know how to
demonstrate that <sola scriptura> is not what Christ taught, it's
not what the apostles and Church Fathers taught and, most
ironically, it's not what the Bible itself teaches.
Catholics need to realize just how untenable <sola scriptura> is
and simply ask that it be proven from the Bible. Instead of
allowing himself to be put on the defensive when purgatory, the
Real Presence, or some other Catholic doctrine1 is challenged by a
demand that <it> be proven from Scripture, the Catholic should
ask, "Where does the Bible teach <sola scriptura>?"
The Catholic case against <sola scriptura> may be summarized by
saying that <sola scriptura> is unhistorical, unbiblical and
unworkable. This article will examine each of these points,
without claiming to offer an exhaustive historical and biblical
critique of the doctrine (there are a number of books and tape
sets which do that). Nevertheless, I hope the essential elements
of the Catholic case will be clear.
SOLA SCPIPTURA IS UNHISTORICAL
First, let's consider <sola scriptura> from the vantage point of
history.......<Link>
Last edited:
Lucia
Well-Known Member
Long reads 2posts ^^^ very informative I'm still reading it day 2, what a great resource thanks for posting.
Lucia
Well-Known Member
Adding
https://www.openbible.info/topics/intercession
100 Bible Verses about Intercession
1 Timothy 2:1 ESV / 173 helpful votes
First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people,
James 5:14-20 ESV / 112 helpful votes
Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working. Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth. Then he prayed again, and heaven gave rain, and the earth bore its fruit. ...
Ephesians 6:18 ESV / 63 helpful votes
Praying at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints,
1 Thessalonians 1:2 ESV / 62 helpful votes
We give thanks to God always for all of you, constantly mentioning you in our prayers,
Romans 8:26 ESV / 56 helpful votes
Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words.
Ezekiel 22:30 ESV / 52 helpful votes
And I sought for a man among them who should build up the wall and stand in the breach before me for the land, that I should not destroy it, but I found none.
Numbers 21:7 ESV / 46 helpful votes
And the people came to Moses and said, “We have sinned, for we have spoken against the Lord and against you. Pray to the Lord, that he take away the serpents from us.” So Moses prayed for the people.
Hebrews 7:25 ESV / 43 helpful votes
Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.
2 Thessalonians 3:1 ESV / 33 helpful votes
Finally, brothers, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may speed ahead and be honored, as happened among you,
Isaiah 59:16-17 ESV / 31 helpful votes
He saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no one to intercede; then his own arm brought him salvation, and his righteousness upheld him. He put on righteousness as a breastplate, and a helmet of salvation on his head; he put on garments of vengeance for clothing, and wrapped himself in zeal as a cloak.
Philemon 1:4-6 ESV / 30 helpful votes
I thank my God always when I remember you in my prayers, because I hear of your love and of the faith that you have toward the Lord Jesus and for all the saints, and I pray that the sharing of your faith may become effective for the full knowledge of every good thing that is in us for the sake of Christ.
Ephesians 3:14-19 ESV / 30 helpful votes
For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named, that according to the riches of his glory he may grant you to be strengthened with power through his Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith—that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may have strength to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, ...
Matthew 5:44 ESV / 29 helpful votes
But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
1 Samuel 12:23 ESV / 29 helpful votes
Moreover, as for me, far be it from me that I should sin against the Lord by ceasing to pray for you, and I will instruct you in the good and the right way.
Jeremiah 29:7 ESV / 26 helpful votes
But seek the welfare of the city where I have sent you into exile, and pray to the Lord on its behalf, for in its welfare you will find your welfare.
1 Peter 2:5 ESV / 25 helpful votes
You yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
Daniel 9:3-19 ESV / 25 helpful votes
Then I turned my face to the Lord God, seeking him by prayer and pleas for mercy with fasting and sackcloth and ashes. I prayed to the Lord my God and made confession, saying, “O Lord, the great and awesome God, who keeps covenant and steadfast love with those who love him and keep his commandments, we have sinned and done wrong and acted wickedly and rebelled, turning aside from your commandments and rules. We have not listened to your servants the prophets, who spoke in your name to our kings, our princes, and our fathers, and to all the people of the land. To you, O Lord, belongs righteousness, but to us open shame, as at this day, to the men of Judah, to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to all Israel, those who are near and those who are far away, in all the lands to which you have driven them, because of the treachery that they have committed against you. ...
1 Thessalonians 5:25 ESV / 22 helpful votes
Brothers, pray for us.
1 Samuel 25:23-35 ESV / 22 helpful votes
When Abigail saw David, she hurried and got down from the donkey and fell before David on her face and bowed to the ground. She fell at his feet and said, “On me alone, my lord, be the guilt. Please let your servant speak in your ears, and hear the words of your servant. Let not my lord regard this worthless fellow, Nabal, for as his name is, so is he. Nabal is his name, and folly is with him. But I your servant did not see the young men of my lord, whom you sent. Now then, my lord, as the Lord lives, and as your soul lives, because the Lord has restrained you from bloodguilt and from saving with your own hand, now then let your enemies and those who seek to do evil to my lord be as Nabal. And now let this present that your servant has brought to my lord be given to the young men who follow my lord. ...
1 John 5:16 ESV / 20 helpful votes
If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life—to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that.
1 Timothy 2:2 ESV / 20 helpful votes
For kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way.
2 Thessalonians 3:16 ESV / 19 helpful votes
Now may the Lord of peace himself give you peace at all times in every way. The Lord be with you all.
1 Kings 8:45 ESV / 19 helpful votes
Then hear in heaven their prayer and their plea, and maintain their cause.
Numbers 12:13 ESV / 19 helpful votes
And Moses cried to the Lord, “O God, please heal her—please.”
2 Thessalonians 3:5 ESV / 18 helpful votes
May the Lord direct your hearts to the love of God and to the steadfastness of Christ.
Colossians 1:9 ESV / 18 helpful votes
And so, from the day we heard, we have not ceased to pray for you, asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding,
Colossians 1:3 ESV / 18 helpful votes
We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you,
Isaiah 62:7 ESV / 18 helpful votes
And give him no rest until he establishes Jerusalem and makes it a praise in the earth.
Psalm 125:4 ESV / 17 helpful votes
Do good, O Lord, to those who are good, and to those who are upright in their hearts!
2 Corinthians 1:11 ESV / 16 helpful votes
You also must help us by prayer, so that many will give thanks on our behalf for the blessing granted us through the prayers of many.
1 Timothy 2:8 ESV / 15 helpful votes
I desire then that in every place the men should pray, lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling;
Revelation 8:3 ESV / 14 helpful votes
And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer, and he was given much incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne,
Jeremiah 5:1 ESV / 14 helpful votes
Run to and fro through the streets of Jerusalem, look and take note! Search her squares to see if you can find a man, one who does justice and seeks truth, that I may pardon her.
Psalm 122:6 ESV / 14 helpful votes
Pray for the peace of Jerusalem! “May they be secure who love you!
Revelation 8:4 ESV / 12 helpful votes
And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel.
Hebrews 13:21 ESV / 12 helpful votes
Equip you with everything good that you may do his will, working in us that which is pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.
Hebrews 13:18 ESV / 12 helpful votes
Pray for us, for we are sure that we have a clear conscience, desiring to act honorably in all things.
2 Timothy 1:3 ESV / 12 helpful votes
I thank God whom I serve, as did my ancestors, with a clear conscience, as I remember you constantly in my prayers night and day.
Psalm 134:3 ESV / 11 helpful votes
May the Lord bless you from Zion, he who made heaven and earth!
Mark 6:55 ESV / 10 helpful votes
And ran about the whole region and began to bring the sick people on their beds to wherever they heard he was.
Isaiah 64:8-12 ESV / 10 helpful votes
But now, O Lord, you are our Father; we are the clay, and you are our potter; we are all the work of your hand. Be not so terribly angry, O Lord, and remember not iniquity forever. Behold, please look, we are all your people. Your holy cities have become a wilderness; Zion has become a wilderness, Jerusalem a desolation. Our holy and beautiful house, where our fathers praised you, has been burned by fire, and all our pleasant places have become ruins. Will you restrain yourself at these things, O Lord? Will you keep silent, and afflict us so terribly?
1 Samuel 2:25 ESV / 10 helpful votes
If someone sins against a man, God will mediate for him, but if someone sins against the Lord, who can intercede for him?” But they would not listen to the voice of their father, for it was the will of the Lord to put them to death.
Numbers 6:23-26 ESV / 10 helpful votes
“Speak to Aaron and his sons, saying, Thus you shall bless the people of Israel: you shall say to them, The Lordbless you and keep you; the Lord make his face to shine upon you and be gracious to you; the Lord lift up his countenance upon you and give you peace.
Revelation 5:8 ESV / 9 helpful votes
And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
Psalm 80:19 ESV / 9 helpful votes
Restore us, O Lord God of hosts! Let your face shine, that we may be saved!
1 Samuel 1:17 ESV / 9 helpful votes
Then Eli answered, “Go in peace, and the God of Israel grant your petition that you have made to him.”
Numbers 14:11-20 ESV / 9 helpful votes
And the Lord said to Moses, “How long will this people despise me? And how long will they not believe in me, in spite of all the signs that I have done among them? I will strike them with the pestilence and disinherit them, and I will make of you a nation greater and mightier than they.” But Moses said to the Lord, “Then the Egyptians will hear of it, for you brought up this people in your might from among them, and they will tell the inhabitants of this land. They have heard that you, O Lord, are in the midst of this people. For you, O Lord, are seen face to face, and your cloud stands over them and you go before them, in a pillar of cloud by day and in a pillar of fire by night. Now if you kill this people as one man, then the nations who have heard your fame will say, ...
1 Thessalonians 3:10 ESV / 8 helpful votes
As we pray most earnestly night and day that we may see you face to face and supply what is lacking in your faith?
Philippians 1:10 ESV / 8 helpful votes
So that you may approve what is excellent, and so be pure and blameless for the day of Christ,
Philippians 1:3-5 ESV / 8 helpful votes
I thank my God in all my remembrance of you, always in every prayer of mine for you all making my prayer with joy, because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now.
Ephesians 1:15-19 ESV / 8 helpful votes
For this reason, because I have heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love toward all the saints, I do not cease to give thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers, that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him, having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power toward us who believe, according to the working of his great might
Romans 1:9 ESV / 8 helpful votes
For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I mention you
Isaiah 53:1-12 ESV / 8 helpful votes
Who has believed what he has heard from us? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed? For he grew up before him like a young plant, and like a root out of dry ground; he had no form or majesty that we should look at him, and no beauty that we should desire him. He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his stripes we are healed. ...
Esther 4:1-17 ESV / 8 helpful votes
When Mordecai learned all that had been done, Mordecai tore his clothes and put on sackcloth and ashes, and went out into the midst of the city, and he cried out with a loud and bitter cry. He went up to the entrance of the king's gate, for no one was allowed to enter the king's gate clothed in sackcloth. And in every province, wherever the king's command and his decree reached, there was great mourning among the Jews, with fasting and weeping and lamenting, and many of them lay in sackcloth and ashes. When Esther's young women and her eunuchs came and told her, the queen was deeply distressed. She sent garments to clothe Mordecai, so that he might take off his sackcloth, but he would not accept them. Then Esther called for Hathach, one of the king's eunuchs, who had been appointed to attend her, and ordered him to go to Mordecai to learn what this was and why it was. ...
1 John 4:1 ESV / 7 helpful votes
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.
Hebrews 13:20 ESV / 7 helpful votes
Now may the God of peace who brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, the great shepherd of the sheep, by the blood of the eternal covenant,
2 Thessalonians 2:17 ESV / 7 helpful votes
Comfort your hearts and establish them in every good work and word.
1 Thessalonians 3:12 ESV / 7 helpful votes
And may the Lord make you increase and abound in love for one another and for all, as we do for you,
Colossians 4:12 ESV / 7 helpful votes
Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ Jesus, greets you, always struggling on your behalf in his prayers, that you may stand mature and fully assured in all the will of God.
Philippians 1:9 ESV / 7 helpful votes
And it is my prayer that your love may abound more and more, with knowledge and all discernment,
2 Corinthians 13:7 ESV / 7 helpful votes
But we pray to God that you may not do wrong—not that we may appear to have met the test, but that you may do what is right, though we may seem to have failed.
2 Corinthians 9:10 ESV / 7 helpful votes
He who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will supply and multiply your seed for sowing and increase the harvest of your righteousness.
Acts 20:32 ESV / 7 helpful votes
And now I commend you to God and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up and to give you the inheritance among all those who are sanctified.
Acts 8:15 ESV / 7 helpful votes
Who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit,
Luke 22:32 ESV / 7 helpful votes
But I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned again, strengthen your brothers.”
Matthew 8:5-13 ESV / 7 helpful votes
When he entered Capernaum, a centurion came forward to him, appealing to him, “Lord, my servant is lying paralyzed at home, suffering terribly.” And he said to him, “I will come and heal him.” But the centurion replied, “Lord, I am not worthy to have you come under my roof, but only say the word, and my servant will be healed. For I too am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. And I say to one, ‘Go,’ and he goes, and to another, ‘Come,’ and he comes, and to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.” ...
Isaiah 62:6 ESV / 7 helpful votes
On your walls, O Jerusalem, I have set watchmen; all the day and all the night they shall never be silent. You who put the Lord in remembrance, take no rest,
Isaiah 62:1 ESV / 7 helpful votes
For Zion's sake I will not keep silent, and for Jerusalem's sake I will not be quiet, until her righteousness goes forth as brightness, and her salvation as a burning torch.
Psalm 80:2 ESV / 7 helpful votes
Before Ephraim and Benjamin and Manasseh, stir up your might and come to save us!
1 Samuel 7:5-8 ESV / 7 helpful votes
Then Samuel said, “Gather all Israel at Mizpah, and I will pray to the Lord for you.” So they gathered at Mizpah and drew water and poured it out before the Lord and fasted on that day and said there, “We have sinned against the Lord.” And Samuel judged the people of Israel at Mizpah. Now when the Philistines heard that the people of Israel had gathered at Mizpah, the lords of the Philistines went up against Israel. And when the people of Israel heard of it, they were afraid of the Philistines. And the people of Israel said to Samuel, “Do not cease to cry out to the Lord our God for us, that he may save us from the hand of the Philistines.”
Numbers 27:16 ESV / 7 helpful votes
“Let the Lord, the God of the spirits of all flesh, appoint a man over the congregation
Numbers 16:46-50 ESV / 7 helpful votes
And Moses said to Aaron, “Take your censer, and put fire on it from off the altar and lay incense on it and carry it quickly to the congregation and make atonement for them, for wrath has gone out from the Lord; the plague has begun.” So Aaron took it as Moses said and ran into the midst of the assembly. And behold, the plague had already begun among the people. And he put on the incense and made atonement for the people. And he stood between the dead and the living, and the plague was stopped. Now those who died in the plague were 14,700, besides those who died in the affair of Korah. And Aaron returned to Moses at the entrance of the tent of meeting, when the plague was stopped.
Numbers 11:1 ESV / 7 helpful votes
And the people complained in the hearing of the Lord about their misfortunes, and when the Lord heard it, his anger was kindled, and the fire of the Lord burned among them and consumed some outlying parts of the camp.
Numbers 10:35 ESV / 7 helpful votes
And whenever the ark set out, Moses said, “Arise, O Lord, and let your enemies be scattered, and let those who hate you flee before you.”
Philemon 1:10-21 ESV / 6 helpful votes
I appeal to you for my child, Onesimus, whose father I became in my imprisonment. (Formerly he was useless to you, but now he is indeed useful to you and to me.) I am sending him back to you, sending my very heart. I would have been glad to keep him with me, in order that he might serve me on your behalf during my imprisonment for the gospel, but I preferred to do nothing without your consent in order that your goodness might not be by compulsion but of your own accord. ...
2 Thessalonians 2:16 ESV / 6 helpful votes
Now may our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God our Father, who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good hope through grace,
Ephesians 6:19 ESV / 6 helpful votes
And also for me, that words may be given to me in opening my mouth boldly to proclaim the mystery of the gospel,
Galatians 6:16 ESV / 6 helpful votes
And as for all who walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.
Galatians 1:3 ESV / 6 helpful votes
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ,
2 Corinthians 9:14 ESV / 6 helpful votes
While they long for you and pray for you, because of the surpassing grace of God upon you.
1 Corinthians 1:3 ESV / 6 helpful votes
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
John 4:49 ESV / 6 helpful votes
The official said to him, “Sir, come down before my child dies.”
John 4:47 ESV / 6 helpful votes
When this man heard that Jesus had come from Judea to Galilee, he went to him and asked him to come down and heal his son, for he was at the point of death.
Luke 5:18-20 ESV / 6 helpful votes
And behold, some men were bringing on a bed a man who was paralyzed, and they were seeking to bring him in and lay him before Jesus, but finding no way to bring him in, because of the crowd, they went up on the roof and let him down with his bed through the tiles into the midst before Jesus. And when he saw their faith, he said, “Man, your sins are forgiven you.”
Luke 4:39 ESV / 6 helpful votes
And he stood over her and rebuked the fever, and it left her, and immediately she rose and began to serve them.
Mark 6:56 ESV / 6 helpful votes
And wherever he came, in villages, cities, or countryside, they laid the sick in the marketplaces and implored him that they might touch even the fringe of his garment. And as many as touched it were made well.
Mark 2:3 ESV / 6 helpful votes
And they came, bringing to him a paralytic carried by four men.
Job 9:33 ESV / 6 helpful votes
There is no arbiter between us, who might lay his hand on us both.
Nehemiah 1:4-9 ESV / 6 helpful votes
As soon as I heard these words I sat down and wept and mourned for days, and I continued fasting and praying before the God of heaven. And I said, “O Lord God of heaven, the great and awesome God who keeps covenant and steadfast love with those who love him and keep his commandments, let your ear be attentive and your eyes open, to hear the prayer of your servant that I now pray before you day and night for the people of Israel your servants, confessing the sins of the people of Israel, which we have sinned against you. Even I and my father's house have sinned. We have acted very corruptly against you and have not kept the commandments, the statutes, and the rules that you commanded your servant Moses. Remember the word that you commanded your servant Moses, saying, ‘If you are unfaithful, I will scatter you among the peoples, ...
Numbers 27:17 ESV / 6 helpful votes
Who shall go out before them and come in before them, who shall lead them out and bring them in, that the congregation of the Lord may not be as sheep that have no shepherd.”
Numbers 21:4-9 ESV / 6 helpful votes
From Mount Hor they set out by the way to the Red Sea, to go around the land of Edom. And the people became impatient on the way. And the people spoke against God and against Moses, “Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? For there is no food and no water, and we loathe this worthless food.” Then the Lord sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people, so that many people of Israel died. And the people came to Moses and said, “We have sinned, for we have spoken against the Lord and against you. Pray to the Lord, that he take away the serpents from us.” So Moses prayed for the people. And the Lord said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent and set it on a pole, and everyone who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live.” ...
Numbers 16:20-22 ESV / 6 helpful votes
And the Lord spoke to Moses and to Aaron, saying, “Separate yourselves from among this congregation, that I may consume them in a moment.” And they fell on their faces and said, “O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and will you be angry with all the congregation?”
Numbers 14:11-21 ESV / 6 helpful votes
And the Lord said to Moses, “How long will this people despise me? And how long will they not believe in me, in spite of all the signs that I have done among them? I will strike them with the pestilence and disinherit them, and I will make of you a nation greater and mightier than they.” But Moses said to the Lord, “Then the Egyptians will hear of it, for you brought up this people in your might from among them, and they will tell the inhabitants of this land. They have heard that you, O Lord, are in the midst of this people. For you, O Lord, are seen face to face, and your cloud stands over them and you go before them, in a pillar of cloud by day and in a pillar of fire by night. Now if you kill this people as one man, then the nations who have heard your fame will say, ...
Exodus 8:12 ESV / 6 helpful votes
So Moses and Aaron went out from Pharaoh, and Moses cried to the Lord about the frogs, as he had agreed with Pharaoh.
2 Timothy 1:18 ESV / 5 helpful votes
May the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that Day!—and you well know all the service he rendered at Ephesus.
Luke 4:38 ESV / 5 helpful votes
And he arose and left the synagogue and entered Simon's house. Now Simon's mother-in-law was ill with a high fever, and they appealed to him on her behalf.
Psalm 85:1-7 ESV / 5 helpful votes
To the choirmaster. A Psalm of the Sons of Korah. Lord, you were favorable to your land; you restored the fortunes of Jacob. You forgave the iniquity of your people; you covered all their sin. Selah You withdrew all your wrath; you turned from your hot anger. Restore us again, O God of our salvation, and put away your indignation toward us! Will you be angry with us forever? Will you prolong your anger to all generations? ...
Exodus 34:9 ESV / 5 helpful votes
And he said, “If now I have found favor in your sight, O Lord, please let the Lord go in the midst of us, for it is a stiff-necked people, and pardon our iniquity and our sin, and take us for your inheritance.”
Exodus 33:12-23 ESV / 5 helpful votes
Moses said to the Lord, “See, you say to me, ‘Bring up this people,’ but you have not let me know whom you will send with me. Yet you have said, ‘I know you by name, and you have also found favor in my sight.’ Now therefore, if I have found favor in your sight, please show me now your ways, that I may know you in order to find favor in your sight. Consider too that this nation is your people.” And he said, “My presence will go with you, and I will give you rest.” And he said to him, “If your presence will not go with me, do not bring us up from here. For how shall it be known that I have found favor in your sight, I and your people? Is it not in your going with us, so that we are distinct, I and your people, from every other people on the face of the earth?” ...
Exodus 3:1-6 ESV / 4 helpful votes
Now Moses was keeping the flock of his father-in-law, Jethro, the priest of Midian, and he led his flock to the west side of the wilderness and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. And the angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush. He looked, and behold, the bush was burning, yet it was not consumed. And Moses said, “I will turn aside to see this great sight, why the bush is not burned.” When the Lord saw that he turned aside to see, God called to him out of the bush, “Moses, Moses!” And he said, “Here I am.” Then he said, “Do not come near; take your sandals off your feet, for the place on which you are standing is holy ground.” ...
kanozas
se ven las caras pero nunca el corazón
I'm about to start a novena this evening and came across this. I'd seen it before but just glossed over it. I didn't note that the disciples and Our Lady were told by Jesus to go and pray, I just assumed that's what they just did. 9 days....novena. Interesting. Learn something new daily. Anyhoo, there are several novenas included with full instructions as well as a sign-up to link to their prayer posting site and other features like joining them in prayer:
http://www.praymorenovenas.com/how-to-pray-a-novena/
Also, if you can just read some of the comments under whichever you desire to pray, you will find the prayers of many others. Will bring you to tears. So many needs in this world. Please add their intentions to your prayers. G-d bless each one who reads and considers these prayers.
How to Pray A Novena
What is a Novena?
The word novena is taken from “novem,” the Latin word for nine. A novena is made up of nine days of prayer and meditation usually to ask God for special prayer requests or petitions. Novenas are often used to ask specific saints to pray for us. The Saint Jude Novena, for example, is prayed to ask Saint Jude to intercede on behalf of a request that seems especially dire.
Novenas are an ancient tradition that goes back to the days of the Apostles. Jesus told His disciples to pray together after His ascension into heaven, so they went to an upper room along with the Blessed Virgin Mary, (Acts 1:14) and joined constantly in prayer for nine days. These nine days of constant prayer by the Apostles at the direction of Jesus led up to Pentecost. This is when the Holy Spirit descended upon the disciples as “tongues of fire” (Acts 2:1-4). This pattern of 9 days of prayer is the basis the novenas we pray today.
Thus, the novena is an imitation of the Lord’s command to the Apostles when they prayed for 9 days in anticipation of the coming of the Holy Spirit.
How do I pray a Novena?
If you sign up here, we will send you the announcement for each novena, a reminder, and the daily prayers for the 9 days of the novena. We will also send you an e-mail on the feast day or last day of the novena, as well as share answered prayers with you from other people in the community.
All you need to do is to say the daily prayers with a sincere heart. It is not necessary to pray at the same time every day (although you can), or to fast, or to pray the rosary in addition to the novena; however, you can still do all of these things in addition to praying, but they are not required. If they are, we will tell you in our e-mails.
Novenas should not be seen as magical incantations that guarantee desired results. God controls the universe and we certainly do not control God. He is not a genie in a bottle, but rather He is a loving Father in heaven. This means that whatever good intentions we pray for, we must accept the fact that God knows what’s best for us, whether we understand His divine intention or not. “Thy will be done” is the proper posture of all Christian prayer. Any so-called novena prayer circulating around that contains guaranteed results, and threatening misfortune for those who fail to devote themselves to it is merely a chain-letter; these should be ignored.
Nonetheless, Jesus reminds us in the Gospel to be persistent in prayer and a novena is a great aid in doing just that!
What if I miss a day?
That’s okay, it happens! If you a miss a day, you can do one of a few things…
You can either: 1) skip the day you missed altogether, 2) say two of the daily prayers in one day to catch up, or 3) say the prayer of the day you missed and just be one day behind everybody else.
It’s up to you, and whatever you choose to do is okay. There are “rules” and there are no “consequences.” God is forgiving and merciful!
http://www.praymorenovenas.com/how-to-pray-a-novena/
Also, if you can just read some of the comments under whichever you desire to pray, you will find the prayers of many others. Will bring you to tears. So many needs in this world. Please add their intentions to your prayers. G-d bless each one who reads and considers these prayers.
How to Pray A Novena
What is a Novena?
The word novena is taken from “novem,” the Latin word for nine. A novena is made up of nine days of prayer and meditation usually to ask God for special prayer requests or petitions. Novenas are often used to ask specific saints to pray for us. The Saint Jude Novena, for example, is prayed to ask Saint Jude to intercede on behalf of a request that seems especially dire.
Novenas are an ancient tradition that goes back to the days of the Apostles. Jesus told His disciples to pray together after His ascension into heaven, so they went to an upper room along with the Blessed Virgin Mary, (Acts 1:14) and joined constantly in prayer for nine days. These nine days of constant prayer by the Apostles at the direction of Jesus led up to Pentecost. This is when the Holy Spirit descended upon the disciples as “tongues of fire” (Acts 2:1-4). This pattern of 9 days of prayer is the basis the novenas we pray today.
Thus, the novena is an imitation of the Lord’s command to the Apostles when they prayed for 9 days in anticipation of the coming of the Holy Spirit.
How do I pray a Novena?
If you sign up here, we will send you the announcement for each novena, a reminder, and the daily prayers for the 9 days of the novena. We will also send you an e-mail on the feast day or last day of the novena, as well as share answered prayers with you from other people in the community.
All you need to do is to say the daily prayers with a sincere heart. It is not necessary to pray at the same time every day (although you can), or to fast, or to pray the rosary in addition to the novena; however, you can still do all of these things in addition to praying, but they are not required. If they are, we will tell you in our e-mails.
Novenas should not be seen as magical incantations that guarantee desired results. God controls the universe and we certainly do not control God. He is not a genie in a bottle, but rather He is a loving Father in heaven. This means that whatever good intentions we pray for, we must accept the fact that God knows what’s best for us, whether we understand His divine intention or not. “Thy will be done” is the proper posture of all Christian prayer. Any so-called novena prayer circulating around that contains guaranteed results, and threatening misfortune for those who fail to devote themselves to it is merely a chain-letter; these should be ignored.
Nonetheless, Jesus reminds us in the Gospel to be persistent in prayer and a novena is a great aid in doing just that!
What if I miss a day?
That’s okay, it happens! If you a miss a day, you can do one of a few things…
You can either: 1) skip the day you missed altogether, 2) say two of the daily prayers in one day to catch up, or 3) say the prayer of the day you missed and just be one day behind everybody else.
It’s up to you, and whatever you choose to do is okay. There are “rules” and there are no “consequences.” God is forgiving and merciful!
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kanozas
se ven las caras pero nunca el corazón
I don't remember where I put the others in this shuffle of threads but here's No. 17.10 of the lecture series on the Eucharist.
http://www.hebrewcatholic.net/17-10-errors-concerning-transubstantiation/
"Errors Concerning Transubstantiation"
http://www.hebrewcatholic.net/17-10-errors-concerning-transubstantiation/
"Errors Concerning Transubstantiation"
Lucia
Well-Known Member
End of article
The modern arguments in favor of homosexuality have thus been insufficient to overcome the evidence that homosexual behavior is against divine and natural law, as the Bible and the Church, as well as the wider circle of Jewish and Christian (not to mention Muslim) writers, have always held.
The Catholic Church thus teaches: "Basing itself on sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered. They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved" (Catechism of the Catholic Church 2357).
However, the Church also acknowledges that "[homosexuality’s] psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. . . . The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s cross the difficulties that they may encounter from their condition.
"Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection" (CCC 2357– 2359).
Paul comfortingly reminds us, "No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your strength, but with the temptation will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it" (1 Cor. 10:13).
Homosexuals who want to live chastely can contact Courage, a national, Church-approved support group for help in deliverance from the homosexual lifestyle.
Courage,
Church of St. John the Baptist
210 W. 31st St., New York, NY 10001
(212) 268–1010
Web: http://couragerc.net
Full article here
http://www.catholic.com/tracts/homosexuality
The modern arguments in favor of homosexuality have thus been insufficient to overcome the evidence that homosexual behavior is against divine and natural law, as the Bible and the Church, as well as the wider circle of Jewish and Christian (not to mention Muslim) writers, have always held.
The Catholic Church thus teaches: "Basing itself on sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered. They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved" (Catechism of the Catholic Church 2357).
However, the Church also acknowledges that "[homosexuality’s] psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. . . . The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s cross the difficulties that they may encounter from their condition.
"Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection" (CCC 2357– 2359).
Paul comfortingly reminds us, "No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your strength, but with the temptation will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it" (1 Cor. 10:13).
Homosexuals who want to live chastely can contact Courage, a national, Church-approved support group for help in deliverance from the homosexual lifestyle.
Courage,
Church of St. John the Baptist
210 W. 31st St., New York, NY 10001
(212) 268–1010
Web: http://couragerc.net
Full article here
http://www.catholic.com/tracts/homosexuality
kanozas
se ven las caras pero nunca el corazón
This is confusing where to post. Anyhoo:
Question:
During Mass this evening, I had a thought about eucharistic vessels and what happens to them immediately after Mass. Are they washed? Who polishes them? What about microscopic pieces residue of Christ's body and blood? Strange question, yeah lol. I am wondering.
Question:
During Mass this evening, I had a thought about eucharistic vessels and what happens to them immediately after Mass. Are they washed? Who polishes them? What about microscopic pieces residue of Christ's body and blood? Strange question, yeah lol. I am wondering.
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Belle Du Jour
Well-Known Member
I remember reading that there is a special sink/drain for washing the chalice and paten. Since they add water to the chalice, swirl it around and drink it after the Eucharist there probably aren't many particles left.
Belle Du Jour
Well-Known Member
What happened to the Catholic random thoughts thread?
kanozas
se ven las caras pero nunca el corazón
????? I was trying to find it. I think our search feature was down for a little bit as well. Sometimes, you want to post random thoughts, not formal questions/answers. I know that my communication about merging some was just a suggestion and not a request at all. I can't speak for everybody here. I wish they would have let us know before doing that.
kanozas
se ven las caras pero nunca el corazón
Yeah, that's what I was thinking. But then again, all those mouths on it. Haha. And someone has to be polishing it. What happends to the special sink/drain? Does someone drink the water from that runoff? One time at mass, there was a host on the floor...just setting there. People kept walking by it. Eventually, the priest picked it up.
Belle Du Jour
Well-Known Member
I think it's okay if it goes directly to the ground/earth. I think you're supposed to bury sacramentals not throw them in the trash.
Can't believe that a host was just lying on the floor...I think of this story Fulton Sheen liked to tell.
http://www.sign.org/articles/how-a-young-chinese-girl
Belle Du Jour
Well-Known Member
Apparently one of my posts was moved there but the thread can't be found...
kanozas
se ven las caras pero nunca el corazón
I know the newer Q&A moves posts. There was so much good information int he Cath. RT. Hate to see it lost.
Belle Du Jour
Well-Known Member
Hopefully the whole thread didn't go "poof." I don't understand the reason for that.
kanozas
se ven las caras pero nunca el corazón
That's just it, the CCC is FAR from secular thought. People kick off at the junction about psychology and chemical biological imbalances despite the evidence that brain function is affected by those imbalances and likewise, just as they do when it comes to mental illness - pretending it is not there and that G-d doesn't use doctors, whom He gave the talent of healing, to assist them in overcoming the many psychological hurdles in life. If people would genuinely read that which they oppose blindly, they might find more similarity than difference. But then again, lets' consider all proclivities of the "saved":
-heterosexual fornication
-those leaning towards theft
-liars
-thieves
-gossipers
-all the vices of men who are saved (counting past sin no. 2, fully aware and willing to commit it)
If they say, "I've sinned, forgive me...but it's still something I struggle with," there is not only heavenly forgiveness, there is the congregational forgiveness until it's someone gay. Incredible.
I guess those who've committed any sexual sin past the first is going to hell because he still feels tempted by that which he's developed a proclivity to. Well, and so is the former bank robber fighting that temptation, the liar, the.....all going to hell for being themselves because sin begins in the heart. But, then, do we comprehend the nature of sin and even forgiveness? For as surely as the person fighting the temptation of homosexual sin is going to hell, he will be accompanied by all the other saved/sinners fighting their personal temptations. Remember, they committed it twice, even though they repented, they still feel temptation to sin. Reprobate minds don't begin and end with gays. So, it doesn't matter that they didn't commit the sin, they had a passing thought about it and thus, they are going to hell because, regarding sex, all extra-marital sex is against G-d's order of nature. That's totally biblical because I feel it in my heart....NOT. The CCC was rightfully and correctly cited regarding the disordered nature of it (proclivity, I suppose) and how they are to behave and how we are to treat them with respect and love as with any other believer. It, in no way, is condoning sin. One is not held guilty of passing thoughts, only lustful thoughts you entertain. There is certainly some grey area where, for whichever reason, their psychology is the way it is, including a natural affinity for the "wrong sex." Love itself is not wrong. Lust is wrong. We are not talking about love, we are talking about "lust" being the sin which differs greatly.
Maybe it is a matter of understanding others? I don't totally, no. I can imagine. It's kind of like the person who messaged me once saying they now knew why I liked Frida Kahlo's paintings. Um, no, you don't. I like them because I understand them and comprehend motherhood, the female body, love of a man and the pains of being a woman loving a man... even miscarriages. Rivera and Kahlo were many things that don't agree with my view of life but people still should not project. They likewise should not take more out of this discussion than what is presented because to do so would demonstrate that they simply do not know me.
-heterosexual fornication
-those leaning towards theft
-liars
-thieves
-gossipers
-all the vices of men who are saved (counting past sin no. 2, fully aware and willing to commit it)
If they say, "I've sinned, forgive me...but it's still something I struggle with," there is not only heavenly forgiveness, there is the congregational forgiveness until it's someone gay. Incredible.
I guess those who've committed any sexual sin past the first is going to hell because he still feels tempted by that which he's developed a proclivity to. Well, and so is the former bank robber fighting that temptation, the liar, the.....all going to hell for being themselves because sin begins in the heart. But, then, do we comprehend the nature of sin and even forgiveness? For as surely as the person fighting the temptation of homosexual sin is going to hell, he will be accompanied by all the other saved/sinners fighting their personal temptations. Remember, they committed it twice, even though they repented, they still feel temptation to sin. Reprobate minds don't begin and end with gays. So, it doesn't matter that they didn't commit the sin, they had a passing thought about it and thus, they are going to hell because, regarding sex, all extra-marital sex is against G-d's order of nature. That's totally biblical because I feel it in my heart....NOT. The CCC was rightfully and correctly cited regarding the disordered nature of it (proclivity, I suppose) and how they are to behave and how we are to treat them with respect and love as with any other believer. It, in no way, is condoning sin. One is not held guilty of passing thoughts, only lustful thoughts you entertain. There is certainly some grey area where, for whichever reason, their psychology is the way it is, including a natural affinity for the "wrong sex." Love itself is not wrong. Lust is wrong. We are not talking about love, we are talking about "lust" being the sin which differs greatly.
Maybe it is a matter of understanding others? I don't totally, no. I can imagine. It's kind of like the person who messaged me once saying they now knew why I liked Frida Kahlo's paintings. Um, no, you don't. I like them because I understand them and comprehend motherhood, the female body, love of a man and the pains of being a woman loving a man... even miscarriages. Rivera and Kahlo were many things that don't agree with my view of life but people still should not project. They likewise should not take more out of this discussion than what is presented because to do so would demonstrate that they simply do not know me.
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Belle Du Jour
Well-Known Member
Today is the feast of the Visitation! Let us be like our Blessed Mother and bring Christ to others through our service and kindnesd.
Lucia
Well-Known Member
Fr Mitch Pacwa and Paul Thigpin writer of Spiritual warfare books
https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast...s.net/download/ewtn/audiolibrary/ELI02895.mp3
https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast...s.net/download/ewtn/audiolibrary/ELI02895.mp3
Lucia
Well-Known Member
So I think the big deal about sin of the heart or mind comes from
Matt 5:8
you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
*So isn't lust an act? As in already entertaining the sinful thought and acting it out in ones heart and mind. If that's the case then just being tempted is not enough to count as sin.
Ladies chime in on where this distinction is please TIA
When people are tempted the enemy will tempt each person differently, because each person has their own weakness.
Now is being tempted a sin? No the Bible clearly states that we will be tempted. (By any means necessary by our adversary)
1Cor 10:13
No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.
But the enemy and his minions can and will make use of any images feelings memeries and tactics he can to cause us to entertain sin and then act upon it.
Does everyone who gets tempted fall into that sin? No
Does everyone who entertains sin commit that sin? No but they are more inclined through constant entertaining of that sin in their mind and hearts to commit that particular sin.
Here's the fine line:
As fellow humans and sinners in his world how would we ever claim know with certainty what is in a mans heart regarding sin.
IMO we humans only partially know when we see the rotten fruit or the acts of sin we cannot know what's in a mans heart only God knows.
Matt 5:8
you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
*So isn't lust an act? As in already entertaining the sinful thought and acting it out in ones heart and mind. If that's the case then just being tempted is not enough to count as sin.
Ladies chime in on where this distinction is please TIA
When people are tempted the enemy will tempt each person differently, because each person has their own weakness.
Now is being tempted a sin? No the Bible clearly states that we will be tempted. (By any means necessary by our adversary)
1Cor 10:13
No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.
But the enemy and his minions can and will make use of any images feelings memeries and tactics he can to cause us to entertain sin and then act upon it.
Does everyone who gets tempted fall into that sin? No
Does everyone who entertains sin commit that sin? No but they are more inclined through constant entertaining of that sin in their mind and hearts to commit that particular sin.
Here's the fine line:
As fellow humans and sinners in his world how would we ever claim know with certainty what is in a mans heart regarding sin.
IMO we humans only partially know when we see the rotten fruit or the acts of sin we cannot know what's in a mans heart only God knows.
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Lucia
Well-Known Member
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kanozas
se ven las caras pero nunca el corazón
Father Mitch had a seizure or heart attack like last month or so. Have you heard how he's getting along?
Lucia
Well-Known Member
I did hear he was recuperating and doing better
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/kateohare/2016/04/ewtns-father-mitch-pacwa-survives-a-heart-attack/
Update for May
He's back at ewtn
https://m.facebook.com/FrMitchPacwaSJ/posts/10156857439285392
https://mobile.twitter.com/frmitchpacwasj?lang=en
Belle Du Jour
Well-Known Member
kanozas
se ven las caras pero nunca el corazón
@Shimmie
There's also another Q&A that transfers posts to one on articles and references and such. Since we don't have a sticky section, we were trying to figure out ways to post to keep track of where these articles, references and questions/answers were. It doesn't mean we want to be limited in posting. Couldn't we have been communicated with regarding deleting our threads? Unfortunately, we have now lost a wealth of information.
There's also another Q&A that transfers posts to one on articles and references and such. Since we don't have a sticky section, we were trying to figure out ways to post to keep track of where these articles, references and questions/answers were. It doesn't mean we want to be limited in posting. Couldn't we have been communicated with regarding deleting our threads? Unfortunately, we have now lost a wealth of information.
