SPINOFF: Why baggying might not be what's hurting your hair...

cmw45

Well-Known Member
After reading the title of the post created by Trimbride, I became slightly alarmed and proceeded to read the article she had attached. After reading the post, I was almost ready to drop the "3 Month Baggy Challenge" until I re-read the article...

This is the article in it's entirety:
_______________________________________________________________
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Moisture content[/FONT]
The moisture content of hair is greater when the atmosphere is moist and humid, and less when the air is dry. The reason why hair 'collapses' in hot, humid atmospheres is summed up by:
heat and humidity -> more moisture
-> less static electricity
-> collapse
In dry conditions:
heat and dryness -> less moisture
-> more static electricity
-> more volume (body)
When hair is wet the cortex swells and the edges of the cuticle scales tend to lift. The hair surface temporarily loses its smoothness.There is therefore more friction when wet hair is rubbed than when it is dry. This is what can lead to matting and tangles developing during over-vigorous shampooing (there is not greater static charge on wet hair than on dry).
These tangles are one of the reasons why many children hate having their hair washed, and the problem is easy to avoid.
Hair diameter
The elastic properties of both wet and dry hair are related to the diameter of the hair shaft. The thicker the hair, the more it will tend to resist stretching.
Porosity

In a normal, undamaged hair shaft, very little water can get either into or out of the cortex. This is because the cuticle covering the cortex is intact, and is then almost (but not quite) waterproof. Shampoos do not damage the
cuticle. When hair is permed or tinted, however, the chemicals have to penetrate the cortex in order to react with the keratin inside it. Increasing the temperature, or applying an alkaline lotion, separates the scales of the cuticle enough to allow the chemicals to pass through. After the processing is finished the scales gradually close up again.
But if hair is processed too many times the cuticle scales may never return to their original tightness and the protection they once offered is lost. The cuticle can also be damaged in the same way by too much blow drying, curling irons that are too hot, and the effects of wind and sun. The hair becomes increasingly porous, and water can then pass in and out of the cortex.
Over-porous hair is dry, and tends to develop split ends. The damaged cuticle is fragile, and the damage worsens as time goes by. The greater the damage, the more the cortex swells with water whenever the hair is washed, but the more water it loses when it dries. The repeated wetting and drying of the cortex gradually weakens the hair.
________________________________________________________________

After re-reading the article I noticed the following:

1) That while I don't think this article can be used as evidence against baggying, I do believe that it provides support for low-manipulation techniques, especially when the hair is when and the hair shaft has more texture.
2) One of the sentences that really stood out to me was, "In a normal, undamaged hair shaft, very little water can get either into or out of the cortex." Which would imply that when baggying, very little water is getting into or out of the cortex if the hair is healthy.
3) The article goes on to state that the hair cuticle is damaged when chemicals (for perms, relaxers, or dyes) penetrate the cortext in order to react with the keratin inside of it allowing the hair shaft to become porous. The shaft closes up eventually over time, HOWEVER, after repeated chemical processes and excess heat, over time, the hair shaft begins to no longer close up. Allowing for water to enter and leave the shaft freely (causing drying and swelling).

Conclusions for Me: What I took away from this article is that the hair shaft is made "porous" and prone to swelling though continued chemical processes and heat application. In general, I think this article supports the low manipulation, low heat, and stretching practices that many women on this site maintain. I also do not believe that this article is evidence against baggying, as it contends that normal healthy hair (which is what we all hope we have and are striving for) lets very little water in and very little water out, and that the goal of most baggying techniques is to keep the ends of the hair protected from undue friction, which the article contends leads to splitting and breakage.

I hope this alternate opinion does not offend...I myself, am always in support of greater discussion about hair. :grin:
 
and a pic added for visuals

1210fig2.gif
 
You raised some very good points, and thank you for posting this article! It contains some great information about porosity.

*shameless plug alert*

Ladies, I'm telling you, ACV rinses and Porosity Control are hair-savers! :thumbsup:

*end shameless plug*:lol:
 
preciousjewel76 said:
You raised some very good points, and thank you for posting this article! It contains some great information about porosity.

*shameless plug alert*

Ladies, I'm telling you, ACV rinses and Porosity Control are hair-savers! :thumbsup:

*end shameless plug*:lol:

What brand is this? ANd silicone or cones, I don't necessarily think the condition or change the health of your hair but I think the cones go in and fill the rough spots up to make it look as if your hair is healthy but once they are gone, say clarifying shampoo, your hair is in the same condition it started off with.

Please tell me if I am wrong about this?
 
cmw45 said:
After reading the title of the post created by Trimbride, I became slightly alarmed and proceeded to read the article she had attached. After reading the post, I was almost ready to drop the "3 Month Baggy Challenge" until I re-read the article...

This is the article in it's entirety:
_______________________________________________________________
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Moisture content[/FONT]
The moisture content of hair is greater when the atmosphere is moist and humid, and less when the air is dry. The reason why hair 'collapses' in hot, humid atmospheres is summed up by:
heat and humidity -> more moisture
-> less static electricity
-> collapse
In dry conditions:
heat and dryness -> less moisture
-> more static electricity
-> more volume (body)
When hair is wet the cortex swells and the edges of the cuticle scales tend to lift. The hair surface temporarily loses its smoothness.There is therefore more friction when wet hair is rubbed than when it is dry. This is what can lead to matting and tangles developing during over-vigorous shampooing (there is not greater static charge on wet hair than on dry).
These tangles are one of the reasons why many children hate having their hair washed, and the problem is easy to avoid.
Hair diameter
The elastic properties of both wet and dry hair are related to the diameter of the hair shaft. The thicker the hair, the more it will tend to resist stretching.
Porosity

In a normal, undamaged hair shaft, very little water can get either into or out of the cortex. This is because the cuticle covering the cortex is intact, and is then almost (but not quite) waterproof. Shampoos do not damage the
cuticle. When hair is permed or tinted, however, the chemicals have to penetrate the cortex in order to react with the keratin inside it. Increasing the temperature, or applying an alkaline lotion, separates the scales of the cuticle enough to allow the chemicals to pass through. After the processing is finished the scales gradually close up again.
But if hair is processed too many times the cuticle scales may never return to their original tightness and the protection they once offered is lost. The cuticle can also be damaged in the same way by too much blow drying, curling irons that are too hot, and the effects of wind and sun. The hair becomes increasingly porous, and water can then pass in and out of the cortex.
Over-porous hair is dry, and tends to develop split ends. The damaged cuticle is fragile, and the damage worsens as time goes by. The greater the damage, the more the cortex swells with water whenever the hair is washed, but the more water it loses when it dries. The repeated wetting and drying of the cortex gradually weakens the hair.
________________________________________________________________

After re-reading the article I noticed the following:

1) That while I don't think this article can be used as evidence against baggying, I do believe that it provides support for low-manipulation techniques, especially when the hair is when and the hair shaft has more texture.
2) One of the sentences that really stood out to me was, "In a normal, undamaged hair shaft, very little water can get either into or out of the cortex." Which would imply that when baggying, very little water is getting into or out of the cortex if the hair is healthy.
3) The article goes on to state that the hair cuticle is damaged when chemicals (for perms, relaxers, or dyes) penetrate the cortext in order to react with the keratin inside of it allowing the hair shaft to become porous. The shaft closes up eventually over time, HOWEVER, after repeated chemical processes and excess heat, over time, the hair shaft begins to no longer close up. Allowing for water to enter and leave the shaft freely (causing drying and swelling).

Conclusions for Me: What I took away from this article is that the hair shaft is made "porous" and prone to swelling though continued chemical processes and heat application. In general, I think this article supports the low manipulation, low heat, and stretching practices that many women on this site maintain. I also do not believe that this article is evidence against baggying, as it contends that normal healthy hair (which is what we all hope we have and are striving for) lets very little water in and very little water out, and that the goal of most baggying techniques is to keep the ends of the hair protected from undue friction, which the article contends leads to splitting and breakage.

I hope this alternate opinion does not offend...I myself, am always in support of greater discussion about hair. :grin:

So basically, if your hair shaft or the scales on your hair are beyond repair and no longer close up after drying, then baggying won't help you.

So what will? I hope I don't have this problem.
 
autumnbeauty29 said:
Great article!! Where can I find the Porosity Control poo that I hear so much raving about??

Roux Porosity Control conditioner and shampoo can be found at Sally's. The conditioner is what folks use more often, but there are some faithful users of the shampoo as well.
 
autumnbeauty29 said:
Great article!! Where can I find the Porosity Control poo that I hear so much raving about??

I know you can get it at Sally's. They have little bottles if you want to try it out first.

I got a big bottle after I tried the little bottles.
 
chica_canella said:
So basically, if your hair shaft or the scales on your hair are beyond repair and no longer close up after drying, then baggying won't help you.

So what will? I hope I don't have this problem.

And further more since my ends are already very damaged and dry that means that baggying might give me WORSE results and that i should wait until ALL my hair is in a healthier state before i start baggying? My ends are VERY damaged right now. Help me out here!

Just tryin to get it straight before i too jump into the baggy challenge

Great thread...when first reading the article i hit the brakes on the baggy challenge as well ( although i maybe i still shouldnt do it??)
 
I need info on "porosity control". So, if porous hair is not good, what can I do to avoid having porous hair?
 
chica_canella said:
So basically, if your hair shaft or the scales on your hair are beyond repair and no longer close up after drying, then baggying won't help you.

So what will? I hope I don't have this problem.

Acidic conditioners and/or a good trim.
 
I agree with this post as well:)

In one of my replies to the thread I started I stated that I have fine and porous hair. This is why I think that baggying wasn't the best option for me. I definitely know that everything isn't for everybody. The starting condition of my hair was not healthy or normal it was fine and porous which does not mix well with baggying.

It is my own fault. I was baggying soaking wet hair and just overdoing things:(

My post wasn't intended to discourage the use of baggying. I think it is a great method. It just isn't for me and my fine and porous hair.

Good Luck Ladies!:D
 
I am doing the 3 month Baggying challenge right now.. and I am just wondering if it is working out for me..honestly how will I know if I have this "type" of hair that it is good for-or not working out for? Is it if my hair is the type that 'soaks things up' this is good or a bad thing?
 
cmw45 said:
Over-porous hair is dry, and tends to develop split ends. The damaged cuticle is fragile, and the damage worsens as time goes by. The greater the damage, the more the cortex swells with water whenever the hair is washed, but the more water it loses when it dries. The repeated wetting and drying of the cortex gradually weakens the hair.
________________________________________________________________

WOW I find this very helpful. That section of the article describes my hair when I airdry. I think this is this explains my Airdrying problem that I've been asking for help on.
Airdry...Can this be bad sometimes?
Now...What to do. Will more protein correct this?
 
Mook's hair said:
WOW I find this very helpful. That section of the article describes my hair when I airdry. I think this is this explains my Airdrying problem that I've been asking for help on.
Airdry...Can this be bad sometimes?
Now...What to do. Will more protein correct this?

IHey Mook's hair, I don't have an anwser to this question and would invite you to ask some of the knowledgeable ladies on the forum. But IMHO, if your hair is the hair in your siggy than I have no idea what you are complaining about your hair is gawgeous! :eek: :grin:
 
When I wore my phoney pony, I always baggied my hair. When I told my mom this (who is a licensed beautician) she told me that baggying wet hair will cause breakage. Ofcourse, I didn't want to listen, but I started noticing that my ends didn't look any better doing this. I still baggy my ends, but I do it at night on completely dry hair with a little moisturizer on the ends like cantu or shea butter, etc.

Also, as a second thought, the constant wetting and drying of hair and the conditions it causes also rings true to me when I was washing my hair more than once a week. I thought my hair was thriving with multiple washes, but then it started looking thin. When I washed my hair every 2 weeks, my hair thrived...but my scalp itched and flaked, so I cut back to washing and conditioning once a week, and I try to always do an ACV rinse. Since I've started doing this, I notice a big difference in how tangled my hair is on the days when I don't do an ACV rinse and the days that I do.

Very good article. :clapping:
 
autumnbeauty29 said:
I am doing the 3 month Baggying challenge right now.. and I am just wondering if it is working out for me..honestly how will I know if I have this "type" of hair that it is good for-or not working out for? Is it if my hair is the type that 'soaks things up' this is good or a bad thing?

Mook's hair said:
WOW I find this very helpful. That section of the article describes my hair when I airdry. I think this is this explains my Airdrying problem that I've been asking for help on.
Airdry...Can this be bad sometimes?
Now...What to do. Will more protein correct this?

See the thread I posted earlier by Sistaslick about hair properties. In it, she describes how over-porous hair acts, and how to treat it. If your hair is too porous/damaged, though, nothing will help it but cutting it off. Protein treatments can provide a temporary fix.
 
deontaer said:
When I wore my phoney pony, I always baggied my hair. When I told my mom this (who is a licensed beautician) she told me that baggying wet hair will cause breakage. Ofcourse, I didn't want to listen, but I started noticing that my ends didn't look any better doing this. I still baggy my ends, but I do it at night on completely dry hair with a little moisturizer on the ends like cantu or shea butter, etc.

Also, as a second thought, the constant wetting and drying of hair and the conditions it causes also rings true to me when I was washing my hair more than once a week. I thought my hair was thriving with multiple washes, but then it started looking thin. When I washed my hair every 2 weeks, my hair thrived...but my scalp itched and flaked, so I cut back to washing and conditioning once a week, and I try to always do an ACV rinse. Since I've started doing this, I notice a big difference in how tangled my hair is on the days when I don't do an ACV rinse and the days that I do.

Very good article. :clapping:

I think that this is the right idea...maybe there should be a discussion about the goals of baggying...when I baggy, I baggy to prevent my hair from rubbing up against differents surfaces, causing undue friction and spilt ends. My hair is really curly and tends to curl up on itself causing knots which i braiding and then baggying the ends has helped with loss from split ends. Are there ladies who baggy to maintain moisture?
 
cmw45 said:
Are there ladies who baggy to maintain moisture?

I have been doing this, for about 3 weeks now. I wonder if it's really necessary, though.:scratchch My hair "feels" more moisturized after removing the baggy in the morning, but it may just be dampness that I'm feeling.:lol: My porosity seems to be balanced, so I probably am not getting any more moisture into the hair by baggying.

I especially like baggying on nights that I use BT, though; I feel like it penetrates the scalp better with the trapped body heat. I think I'll continue doing this, at the very least. I may just put the baggy on for a few hours or so. It's honestly getting a little cumbersome to sleep with a bag on my head, and it's not something I intended to do for the rest of my life anyway.:)

(P.S. - This is not a knock on baggying, at all!)
 
This is what I found on porosity
Hair Porosity

hairporosity.jpg
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
Porosity is the measure of the hair's ability to absorb moisture. This is determined by the condition of the hair's cuticle layer (the overlapping scales of the hair shaft), and is rated as low, normal, and high. In normal, healthy hair, the cuticle is compact and inhibits the penetration of the hair shaft by moisture - both moisture going in, and moisture coming out. When the cuticle is overly compact and prevents the penetration of the hair by moisture it has low porosity. Hair with low porosity is harder to process, and is resistant to haircolor and perms. Low porosity hair must usually be softened prior to other chemical services. Hair with high porosity is hair whose cuticle layer is open and the hair too-readily absorbs moisture. Overly-porous hair also releases moisture easily and becomes dry and is easily damaged. Acid-balanced conditioning treatments are used to contract the cuticle layer and lock-in moisture on overly-porous hair.

Extreme caution must be used when performing chemical services on overly porous hair to prevent damage. Haircolor will take much more quickly and strongly in overly porous hair (and semi-permanent and demi-permanent haircolors will fade much more quickly). Perms and straighteners will process much faster in high-porosity hair as well. To determine the porosity of your hair, simply feel it - both when wet and when

dry. If the hair feels straw-like and rough when dry, or if it feels gummy or slightly rubbery when wet, then you probably have a problem with overly porous hair.


Looking at this and the article posted, I may need to trim a little before I continue the baggy challenge..

[/FONT]
 
autumnbeauty29 said:
This is what I found on porosity
Hair Porosity

hairporosity.jpg
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
Porosity is the measure of the hair's ability to absorb moisture. This is determined by the condition of the hair's cuticle layer (the overlapping scales of the hair shaft), and is rated as low, normal, and high. In normal, healthy hair, the cuticle is compact and inhibits the penetration of the hair shaft by moisture - both moisture going in, and moisture coming out. When the cuticle is overly compact and prevents the penetration of the hair by moisture it has low porosity. Hair with low porosity is harder to process, and is resistant to haircolor and perms. Low porosity hair must usually be softened prior to other chemical services. Hair with high porosity is hair whose cuticle layer is open and the hair too-readily absorbs moisture. Overly-porous hair also releases moisture easily and becomes dry and is easily damaged. Acid-balanced conditioning treatments are used to contract the cuticle layer and lock-in moisture on overly-porous hair.

[/FONT]

How does one go about "softening" the hair prior to a chemical service?
 
I have read that some on LHCF will apply conditioner before self relaxing. I have not yet done this. So I don't really know if it works or not
 
autumnbeauty29 said:
I have read that some on LHCF will apply conditioner before self relaxing. I have not yet done this. So I don't really know if it works or not

People do this to protect their previously relaxed hair from the chemicals. The conditioner is not applied on the new growth.

I'm not sure what that article means by "softening" hair that isn't porous enough, either!
 
autumnbeauty29 said:
I have read that some on LHCF will apply conditioner before self relaxing. I have not yet done this. So I don't really know if it works or not

Ok, I looked it up. It is applying a mild bleach solution to the hair before coloring to I guess jump start the process of lifting the cuticles. I'm sure it can be done for a relaxer but I won't be trying this unless they made something similar specifically for relaxers. :perplexed
 
CAPlush said:
Ok, I looked it up. It is applying a mild bleach solution to the hair before coloring to I guess jump start the process of lifting the cuticles. I'm sure it can be done for a relaxer but I won't be trying this unless they made something similar specifically for relaxers. :perplexed

:eek: So basically, it's double processing? Sounds like it could be damaging to the hair if it's not done properly.
 
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