Should Christians have images of Jesus/God/Biblical Characters?

Natchitoches said:
To the first bolded, I'm sure not. We often bring into the discussion our own personal struggles with people not at all represented here.

To the second bolded, taken from scriptures, God told Moises to fashion a pole with a snake for healing the people if they were bitten and gazed upon it. The cross is that symbol since the day Jesus was crucified upon it. We look to Him that was lifted up.

Numbers 21: 6-9
[SIZE=-1]6Then the Lord sent venomous snakes among them; they bit the people and many Israelites died. 7The people came to Moses and said, "We sinned when we spoke against the Lord and against you. Pray that the Lord will take the snakes away from us." So Moses prayed for the people. 8The Lord said to Moses, "Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live." 9So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, he lived.[/SIZE]


It's not without incident that the medical symbol is actually taken from ancient times, Moises.

John 8:28 So Jesus said, "When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me.

This wasn't just speaking of praise and worship as we could say. He was lifted up on a cross, a visible symbol or object of adoration, held dear to all christians. We make that sign on our foreheads and it is the sign spoken of.

[FONT=arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif]Ezechiel 9:4[/FONT]
[FONT=arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif]And the Lord said to him: Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem: and mark Thau upon the foreheads of the men that sigh, and mourn for all the abominations that are committed in the midst thereof. [/FONT]

Revelations 22:4
They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads.

John 12:32
As for me, if I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all people to myself."


The most holy object, the Ark of the Covenant. Images of cherubim. Sacred ceremony was held regarding it.

Joshua 3:11
"Behold, the ark of the covenant of the Lord of all the earth"

The command was not to make a symbol such that one worshipped any God that was not the God of Israel. Of course, this is the lesson I was given and is not an attempt to change anybody's beliefs. I'm representing why WE do things that way. I won't just sit back and have folks calling us pagans when I know it's not true. :lachen: Gotta represent :lachen: at least to set the story straight. People can do and think what they want.
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What stands out here to me from those Scriptures, without exception, is that what was done, in each case was AT THE COMMAND OF GOD.
What is mentioned in Exodus and Leviticus IS ALSO A COMMAND. (I.E 10 COMMANDMENTS)
I do understand what you are saying:
What I am looking at is that: When something is made AT THE COMMAND of God, it is different than something being made by Man on his own, e.g like Pagans.

As when the Commandment says: 'YOU SHALL NOT MAKE FOR YOURSELF ANY....." this is where the 'violation comes in', because OUTSIDE THE COMMAND OF GOD, we are doing it ON OUR OWN.

God is God. Man is Man UNDER the Commands of God. Some things are reserved strictly for God, and some things are restricted to man BY GOD. That is what it boils down to for me.
 
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Mahalialee4 said:
What stands out here to me from those Scriptures, without exception, is that what was done, in each case was AT THE COMMAND OF GOD.
What is mentioned in Exodus and Leviticus IS ALSO A COMMAND. (I.E 10 COMMANDMENTS)
I do understand what you are saying:
What I am looking at is that: When something is made AT THE COMMAND of God, it is different than something being made by Man on his own, e.g like Pagans.

As when the Commandment says: 'YOU SHALL NOT MAKE FOR YOURSELF ANY....." this is where the 'violation comes in', because OUTSIDE THE COMMAND OF GOD, we are doing it ON OUR OWN.

God is God. Man is Man UNDER the Commands of God. Some things are reserved strictly for God, and some things are restricted to man BY GOD. That is what it boils down to for me.
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Pants or skirts? Men aren't to wear effeminate clothing, directly commanded by God. Does that mean women are wrong for wearing pants? If we do such, are we directly going outside His command? Since I'm not a pagan, I can't attest to what they do. I posted those to demonstrate why we do things, not in an attempt to tell others they are wrong for NOT doing those things. It's the tradition that makes us different from you. I can't give a protestant perspective because I'm not one. We don't apologize for tradition and don't expect you to apologize for not having it either, out of respect. Every man to himself. The world is just that big. :yep:

I don't know one person who worships a statue. But I do know plenty of people who venerate the Virgin Mary as the Mother of God.
 
It's not so mcuh about worshipping the image, but the image becoming a distraction. Why do we as worshippers need images at all when we have His Word?
 
This is only addressed to those who QUESTION the use of images and even those who Question the Origin of these images. From this information, you can read it without having to be found offending other Christians by questioning them.

I posted these Scriptures from the 'Douay' Bible. I am also posting quotations from Catholic leaders on the subject of images. I think we need to see a complete perspective of this. So these Scriptures are not "protestant slanted'.

Scriptures:

Quote: 1 Corinthians 12: 2 “You know that when you were heathens, you went to dumb idols, according as you were led.” 1Thessalonians 1:9: “For they themselves relate of us, what manner of entering in we had unto you; and how you turned to God from idols, to serve the living and true God.
The Man ..Paul did not accept worship or adoration:
Acts 14: “11 And when the multitudes had seen what Paul had done, they lifted up their voice in the Lycaonian tongue, saying: The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men; 12 And they called Barnabas, Jupiter: but Paul, Mercury; because he was chief speaker. 13 The priest also of Jupiter that was before the city, bringing oxen and garlands before the gate, would have offered sacrifice with the people. 14 Which, when the apostles Barnabas and Paul had heard, rending their clothes, they leaped out among the people, crying, 15 And saying: Ye men, why do ye these things? We also are mortals, men like unto you, preaching to you to be converted from these vain things, to the living God, who made the heaven, and the earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them:”
The Man--Peter refused worship and adoration:
Acts 10:25 And it came to pass, that when Peter was come in, Cornelius came to meet him, Cornelius came to meet him, and falling at his feet adored. 26 But Peter lifted him up, saying: Arise, I myself also am a man
God’s Holy Angels refused worship and adoration
Revelation 19:10 “And I fell down before his feet, to adore him. And he saith to me: See thou do it not: I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren, who have the testimony of Jesus. Adore God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”

Revelation 22:8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed me these things.
Revelation 22:9 And he said to me: See thou do it not: for I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them that keep the words of the prophecy of this book. Adore God.
Regarding Christians….WHAT BENEFIT IS USING IMAGES FOR YOU?
Habakkuk 2:18 "What profit is the idol when its maker has carved it, Or an image, a teacher of falsehood? For its maker trusts in his own handiwork When he fashions speechless idols.”
Then some say that these images are saints who have died… are now like angels in heaven:. Some ‘flagellate’ themselves with tiny ‘whips’, which the pagans also do, (many until blood runs), and some do this in front of images or pictures or idols
Colossians 2:18 “Let no man seduce you, willing in humility, and religion of angels, walking in the things which he hath not seen, in vain puffed up by the sense of his flesh,”


Can Idols Be A Snare?
Judges 2:12 “And they left the Lord the God of their fathers, who had brought them out of the land of Egypt: and they followed strange gods, and the gods of the people that dwelt round about them, and they adored them: and they provoked the Lord to anger.”
Isaiah 44:9 The makers of idols are all of them nothing, and their best beloved things shall not profit them. They are their witnesses, that they do not see, nor understand, that they may be ashamed
Ezekiel 20: But they provoked me, and would not hearken to me: they did not every man cast away the abominations of his eyes, neither did they forsake the idols of Egypt: and I said I would pour out my indignation upon them, and accomplish my wrath against them in the midst of the land of Egypt.
Psalm 97: 7“Ashamed be all they that serve graven images, that boast themselves of idols. Worship him, all ye gods.


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To avoid getting into strife and debates, this information will go a long way into understanding Catholics and why they believe the way they do. Let the quotes speak for themselves. Those who are Protestants need information from their point of view.

Appreciating Catholic Beliefs:

“The use of temples, and these dedicated to particular saints, and ornamented on occasions with branches of trees; incense, lamps, and candles; votive offerings on recovery from illness; holy water; asylums; holydays and seasons, use of calendars, processions, blessings on the fields; sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure, the ring in marriage, turning to the East, images at a later date, perhaps the ecclesiastical chant, and the Kyrie Eleison are all of pagan origin, and sanctified by their adoption into the Church.” — An Essay on the The Development of the Christian Doctrine John Henry “Cardinal Newman” p.373.
“It is interesting to note how often our Church has availed herself of practices which were in common use among pagans … Thus it is true, in a certain sense, that some Catholic rites and ceremonies are a reproduction of those of pagan creeds…” — (The Externals of the Catholic Church, Her Government, Ceremonies, Festivals, Sacramentals and Devotions, by John F. Sullivan, p 156, published by P.J. Kennedy, NY, 1942).
“The Sun was a foremost god with heathendom. ... The sun has worshippers at this hour in Persia and other lands. ... The PAGAN Sunday dedicated to Balder, became the Christian Sunday, sacred to Jesus.” — Catholic William Gildea, Doctor of Divinity, wrote in The Catholic World, March, 1894, page 809.
“The adoration of idols that is in Babylon was succeeded by the adoration of saints.” — Henry Thomas Buckle, a world-famous historian, says in his book The History of Civilization, Volume 1, page 188.
The book Catholic Belief, by Roman Catholic scholar Father Joseph Faà di Bruno, page 45, states this: “Like two sacred rivers flowing from Paradise, the Bible AND divine Tradition contain the Word of God, the precious gems of revealed truths. Though these two divine streams are in themselves, on account of their divine origin, of EQUAL sacredness, and are both full of revealed truths, still, of the two, Tradition is to us MORE clear and safe.” Are the traditions, customs and practices of man safer than the Bible? Rome baptizes tradition with the word “divine” and dares to hold it above the Bible.
“Reason and sense demand the acceptance of one or the other of these alternatives: either Protestantism and the keeping holy of Saturday, or Catholicity and the keeping holy of Sunday. Compromise is IMPOSSIBLE.” — Cardinal James Gibbons, archbishop of Baltimore and noted writer, said in The Catholic Mirror, December 23, 1893.
 
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Tradition Is Very Important to Catholics and the Catholic Church:

The quotes from Catholic leaders show where Tradition stands in relation to Scripure.

"In 1562 the Archbishop of Reggio openly declared that tradition now stood above scripture. This is what he wrote. “The authority of the Church is illustrated most clearly by the scriptures, for on one hand she recommends them, declares them to be divine, and offers them to us to be read, and on the other hand, the legal precepts in the scriptures taught by the Lord have ceased by virtue of the same authority. The Sabbath, the most glorious day in the law, has been changed into the Lord’s day. These and other similar matters have not ceased by virtue of Christ’s teaching (for He says that He has come to fulfill the law, not to destroy it), but they have been changed by the authority of the Church.” — Gaspare de Posso, Archbishop of Reggio, Council of Trent.
“The pope has power to change times, abrogate laws, and dispense with all things, even the precepts of Christ.” — Decretal De Translat. Espiscop. Cap.
“The authority of the Church could therefore not be bound to the authority of the Scriptures, because the Church had changed…the Sabbath to Sunday, not by command of Christ, but by its own authority.” — Cannon and Tradition, p.263.

“The Pope is not only the representative of Jesus Christ, but he is Jesus Christ, Himself, hidden under the veil of human flesh.” — Catholic National, July 1895.
“The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in Heaven and earth.” — Pope Pius V, quoted in Barclay, Chapter XXVII, p. 218, “Cities Petrus Bertanous.”
“We hold upon this earth the place of God almighty.” — Pope Leo XIII, Encyclical Letter, June 20, 1894.
 
Comments by 'Christian Church Historians' helping to understand the Catholic Church.
There are also comments from noted Roman Catholic Scholars

Doctor Alexander Hislop, in his classic work, The Two Babylon’s, page 105, says this: “To conciliate the Pagans to nominal Christianity, Rome, pursuing its usual policy, took measures to get the Christian and Pagan festivals [that’s the Sabbath and Sunday] amalgamated, and ... to get Paganism and Christianity now far sunk in idolatry in this as in so many other things, to shake hands.” He says further: “A glance at the main pillars of the Papal system will sufficiently prove that its doctrine and discipline in all essential respects have been derived from BABYLON.”
“In ancient Babylonia the SUN was WORSHIPPED from immemorial antiquity.” — Sir James G. Frazer, an authoritative scholar, makes this statement in his book The Worship of Nature, Volume 1, page 529.
“The doctrine of natural, as distinguished from Christian, immortality ... crept into the Church, by a BACK DOOR. ... When arguments are offered for the purely natural immortality of the soul, they are rarely, if ever, derived from Scripture. ... The natural immortality of the soul is a doctrine wholly unknown to the Holy Scriptures, and standing on no higher plane than that of ... PHILOSOPHICAL OPINION ... of philosophical speculations DISGUISED as truths of Divine Revelation.” — William E. Gladstone, four-time Prime Minister of Great Britain and a theologian in his own right, wrote in Studies Subsidiary to the Works of Bishop Butler, pp. 195-198.
“The adoration of idols that is in Babylon was succeeded by the adoration of saints.” — Henry Thomas Buckle, a world-famous historian, says in his book The History of Civilization, Volume 1, page 188.
The book Catholic Belief, by Roman Catholic scholar Father Joseph Faà di Bruno, page 45, states this: “Like two sacred rivers flowing from Paradise, the Bible AND divine Tradition contain the Word of God, the precious gems of revealed truths. Though these two divine streams are in themselves, on account of their divine origin, of EQUAL sacredness, and are both full of revealed truths, still, of the two, Tradition is to us MORE clear and safe.” Are the traditions, customs and practices of man safer than the Bible? Rome baptizes tradition with the word “divine” and dares to hold it above the Bible.
“Reason and sense demand the acceptance of one or the other of these alternatives: either Protestantism and the keeping holy of Saturday, or Catholicity and the keeping holy of Sunday. Compromise is IMPOSSIBLE.” — Cardinal James Gibbons, archbishop of Baltimore and noted writer, said in The Catholic Mirror, December 23, 1893.
“One cannot well refer to those cults of Babylon and Egypt and the rest as DEAD religions. For the echo of their ancient thunder is still to be heard reverberating in almost every form of faith existing today. Ancient Babylonian image worship is in the church today. Ancient Babylonian sun worship is there. Ancient Babylonian belief in the immortality of the soul is there. Yes, the echo of that thunder is still heard in the church today!” — Lewis Brown says this in The Believing World, page 112.
“His coins bore on the one side the letters of the name of Christ; on the other, the figure of the SUN GOD, as if he could not bear to relinquish the patronage of the bright luminary.” — Historian Arthur P. Stanley in his book, The History of the Eastern Church, page 184, says this about the Roman Emperor Constantine.


Rather than debating about things which only seems to create defensiveness and perhaps hurt feelings....you can read this material and have greater understanding regarding where 'Catholic' Christians are coming from and why they feel the way they do...and appreciate how and what they have been taught. We understand that they have a different 'theological' doctrine of Images, saints etc. than do some other 'Christian' churches.

The Catholic Church believes that it has 'Divine Right' to exercise great ecclesiatical power and authority:

“The church may by divine right confiscate the property of heretics, imprison their person, and condemn them to flames. In our age, the right to inflict the severest penalties, even death, belongs to the church. There is no graver offense than heresy, therefore it must be rooted out.” — Public Eccliastical, Vol. 2, p.142.


There is no condemnation, just posting documented information. I prefer to let Catholic literature define their beliefs.
 
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For those who wish to research the material feel free do so.

Further Catholic Quotes:
“The Pope is of great authority and power, that he is able to modify, declare, or interpret even divine laws. The Pope can modify divine law, since his power is not of man, but of God, and he acts as vicegerent of God upon earth...” — Lucius Ferraris, in “Prompta Bibliotheca Canonica, Juridica, Moralis, Theologica, Ascetica, Polemica, Rubristica, Historica”, Volume V, article on “Papa, Article II”, titled “Concerning the extent of Papal dignity, authority, or dominion and infallibility”, #30, published in Petit-Montrouge (Paris) by J. P. Migne, 1858 edition.
“We may according to the fullness of our power, dispose of the law and dispense above the law. Those whom the Pope of Rome doth separate, it is not a man that separates them but God. For the Pope holdeth place on earth, not simply of a man but of the true God....dissolves, not by human but rather by divine authority....I am in all and above all, so that God Himself and I, the vicar of God, hath both one consistory, and I am able to do almost all that God can do...Wherefore, no marvel, if it be in my power to dispense with all things, yea with the precepts of Christ.” — Decretales Domini Gregori ix Translatione Episcoporum, (on the Transference of Bishops), title 7, chapter 3; Corpus Juris Canonice (2nd Leipzig ed., 1881), col. 99; (Paris, 1612), tom. 2, Decretales, col. 205 (while Innocent III was Pope).
“We confess that the Pope has power of changing Scripture and of adding to it, and taking from it, according to his will.” — Roman Catholic Confessions for Protestants Oath, Article XI, (Confessio Romano-Catholica in Hungaria Evangelicis publice praescripta te proposita, editi a Streitwolf), as recorded in Congressional Record of the U.S.A., House Bill 1523, Contested election case of Eugene C. Bonniwell, against Thos. S. Butler, Feb. 15, 1913.
“Most Christians assume that Sunday is the biblically approved day of worship. The Roman Catholic Church protests that it transferred Christian worship from the biblical Sabbath (Saturday) to Sunday, and that to try to argue that the change was made in the Bible is both dishonest and a denial of Catholic authority. If Protestantism wants to base its teachings only on the Bible, it should worship on Saturday.” — Rome’s Challenge www.immaculateheart.com/maryonline December 2003
“And God himself is obliged to abide by the judgment of his priest and either not to pardon or to pardon, according as they refuse to give absolution, provided the penitent is capable of it.” — St. Alphonsus De Liguori, in The Dignity of the Priesthood, p. 27.
“Unless therefore they receive saving baptism in the Catholic Church, which is one, they cannot be saved, but will be condemned with the carnal in the judgment of the Lord Christ.” — Catholic Bishop Nemesianus of Thubunae, The Seventh Council of Carthage Under Cyprian, Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. V.
“When we say that faith is necessary for the remission of sins, we mean to speak of the Catholic faith, not heretical faith. Without the habit of this faith, no man is justified.” — St. Alphonsus Maria Liguori, (quoted in Apostolic Digest, by Michael Malone, Book 3: “The Book of Faith”, Chapter 1, “There is No Salvation Except in the Catholic Faith”).
“The holy universal Church teaches that it is not possible to worship God truly except in her and asserts that all who are outside of her will not be saved.” — St. Gregory the Great (Quoted by Pope Gregory XVI in Summo Iugiter Studio (On Mixed Marriages), Encyclical promulgated on May 27, 1832, #5.
“It is absolutely necessary that the Christian community be subject in all things to the Sovereign Pontiff if it wishes to be a part of the divinely-established society founded by our Redeemer.” — Pope Pius XII, Orientalis Ecclesiae, quoted in “Acta Apostolicae Sedis”, 36:129, Rome: Vatican Press, (quoted in Apostolic Digest, by Michael Malone, Book 4: “The Book of Christians”, Chapter 4: “There is No Allegiance to Christ Without Submission to the Pope”).

Not about to try and change anyone and what they believe.
It is what it is.
 
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Natchitoches said:
I don't know one person who worships a statue. But I do know plenty of people who venerate the Virgin Mary as the Mother of God.
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worshipping_mary200.jpg

idolatry-mary_worship.jpg


that is not merely people who just HAPPENED to pray where a statue was, they are praying to that statue. that's looks and smells like worship to me
And God dosn't have a mother lol the flesh that He made for Himself to sacrifice for mankind had a mother ... but that's off topic

just thought i'd share those pics cause they shocked me
 
now these people feel justified to be praying to that biblical figure, but that is praying to someone other than God, same thing for the saints, and same thing for Jesus the flesh (that had a face, hair, eyes different than anythng u can see around).
that's the only thing u can't deny is that prayers are being sent to some who are not God by being on ur knees in front of a paiting or a statue.

worship : a. The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or a sacred object.
b. The ceremonies, prayers, or other religious forms by which this love is expressed.
 
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If you want to research the information that I posted information: Here are a couple of sources for your own information.
The above information can be found in the books, 1. The Two Babylons by Alexander Hislop and 2. the Angel of Light by Jack Chick. Alexander Hislop in his book also traces Roman Catholic sacraments, ceremonies, doctrines, confessionals, priesthood, etc. back to ancient Babylonian Baal worship.

You will then note the Catholic and Scholarly references included in those materials when you check out these books from which quotes are taken. Hope this helps. In all fairness, I will post more material, but I will also post some very relevant Protestant information that Protestants may want to consider on certain doctrines and practices they uphold as well.

The Focus can not be just on the Catholic Church and its doctrines and teachings. Every church has to look at itself. The Protestant Churches have in the past been very outspoken about the Catholic Church and those Catholics on the board may feel they have been 'ganged upon'.

What I am going to be posting allows Protestants to judge themselves by the same standards that they would judge Catholocism and determine if there is 'a beam in the eyes' of Protestants as well.
 
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Constantine's decree: "On the venerable Day of the Sun let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed." (Constantine, March 7, 321. Codex Justinianus lib. 3, tit. 12, 3; trans. in Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church, Vol. 3, p. 380, note 1)


Quote out of Adventist Revelation seminar book: Catholic Catechism, Peter Geierman, The Convert's Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, p. 50.
Q. What is the Third Commandment?
A. The Third Commandment is: Remember that thou keep holy the Sabbath day.
Q. Which is the Sabbath day?
A. Saturday is the Sabbath day.
Q. Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
A. We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday."





In All fairness:

CATHOLICISM SPEAKS
"Sunday is a Catholic institution, and its claims to observance can be defended only on Catholic principles . . . From beginning to end of scripture there is not a single passage that warrants the transfer of weekly public worship from the last day of the week to the first."--Catholic Press, Sydney, Australia, August, 1900.
"Protestantism, in discarding the authority of the [Roman Catholic] Church, has no good reasons for its Sunday theory, and ought logically to keep Saturday as the Sabbath."--John Gilmary Shea, in the "American Catholic Quarterly Review," January 1883.
"It is well to remind the Presbyterians, Baptists, Methodists, and all other Christians, that the Bible does not support them anywhere in their observance of Sunday. Sunday is an institution of the Roman Catholic Church, and those who observe the day observe a commandment of the Catholic Church."--Priest Brady, in an address, reported in the Elizabeth, N.J. "News" of March 18, 1903.
"Ques.--Have you any other way of proving that the [Catholic] Church has power to institute festivals of precept [to command holy days] ?"
"Ans.--Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her: She could not have substituted the observance of Sunday, the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday, the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority."--Stephan Keenan, "A Doctrinal Catechism," p. 176.
"Reason and common sense demand the acceptance of one or the other of these alternatives: either Protestantism and the keeping holy of Saturday, or Catholicity and the keeping holy of Sunday. Compromise is impossible."--"The Catholic Mirror," December 23, 1893.
"God simply gave His [Catholic] Church the power to set aside whatever day or days, she would deem suitable as Holy Days. The Church chose Sunday, the first day of the week, and in the course of time added other days, as holy days."--Vincent J. Kelly, "Forbidden Sunday and Feast-Day Occupations," p. 2.
"Protestants . . . accept Sunday rather than Saturday as the day for public worship after the Catholic Church made the change . . . But the Protestant mind does not seem to realize that in accepting the Bible, in observing the Sunday, they are accepting the authority of the spokesman for the church, the Pope."--"Our Sunday Visitor," February 5, 1950.
"We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty."--Pope Leo XIII, in an Encyclical Letter, dated June 20, 1894.
Not the Creator of the Universe, in Genesis 2:1-3,--but the Catholic Church "can claim the honor of having granted man a pause to his work every seven days"--S.C. Mosna, "Storia della Domenica," 1969, pp. 366-367.
"The Pope is not only the representative of Jesus Christ, but he is Jesus Christ Himself, hidden under veil of flesh."--"The Catholic National,"July 1895.
"If Protestants would follow the Bible, they should worship God on the Sabbath Day. In keeping the Sunday they are following a law of the Catholic Church."--Albert Smith, Chancellor of the Archdiocese of Baltimore, replying for the Cardinal, in a letter dated February 10, 1920.
"We define that the Holy Apostolic See [the Vatican] and the Roman Pontiff holds the primacy over the whole world."--A Decree of the Council of Trent, quoted in Philippe Labbe and Gabriel Cossart, 'The Most Holy Councils," Vol. 13, col. 1167.
"It was the Catholic Church which, by the authority of Jesus Christ, has transferred this rest [from the Bible Sabbath] to the Sunday . . . Thus the observance of Sunday by the Protestants is an homage they pay, in spite of themselves, to the authority of the [Catholic] Church."--Monsignor Louis Segur, "Plain Talk about the Protestantism of Today," p. 213.
"We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday."--Peter Geiermann, CSSR, "A Doctrinal Catechism," 1957 edition, p. 50.
"We Catholics, then, have precisely the same authority for keeping Sunday holy instead of Saturday as we have for every other article of our creed, namely, the authority of the Church . . . whereas you who are Protestants have really no authority for it whatever; for there is no authority for it [Sunday sacredness] in the Bible, and you will not allow that there can be authority for it anywhere else. Both you and we do, in fact, follow tradition in this matter; but we follow it, believing it to be a part of God's word, and the [Catholic] Church to be its divinely appointed guardian and interpreter; you follow it [the Catholic Church], denouncing it all the time as a fallible and treacherous guide, which often 'makes the commandments of God of none effect' quoting Matthew 15:6] ."--The Brotherhood of St. Paul, "The Clifton Tracts," Vol. 4, tract 4, p. 15.
"The Church changed the observance of the Sabbath to Sunday by right of the divine, infallible authority given to her by her founder, Jesus Christ. The Protestant claiming the Bible to be the only guide of faith, has no warrant for observing Sunday. In this matter the Seventh-day Adventist is the only consistent Protestant."--"The Catholic Universe Bulletin," August 14, 1942, p.

to be continued
 
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"It would be an error to attribute ['the sanctification of Sunday'] to a definite decision of the Apostles. There is no such decision mentioned in the Apostolic documents [that is, the New Testament] ."--Antoine Villien, "A History of the Commandments of the Church," 1915, p. 23.
"It must be confessed that there is no law in the New Testament concerning the first day."--McClintock and Strong, "Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological and Ecclesiastical Literature," Vol. 9, p. 196.
"Rites and ceremonies, of which neither Paul nor Peter ever heard, crept silently into use, and then claimed the rank of divine institutions. [Church] officers for whom the primitive disciples could have found no place, and titles which to them would have been altogether unintelligible, began to challenge attention, and to be named apostolic."--William B. Killen, "The Ancient Church," p. xvi.
"Until well into the second century [a hundred years after Christ] we do not find the slightest indication in our sources that Christians marked Sunday by any kind of abstention from work."--W. Rordorf "Sunday," p. 157.
"The ancient Sabbath did remain and was observed, by the Christians of the Eastern Church [in the area near Palestine] above three hundred years after our Saviour's death."--"A Learned Treatise of the Sabbath," p. 77.
"Modern Christians who talk of keeping Sunday as a 'holy' day, as in the still extant 'Blue Laws,' of colonial America, should know that as a 'holy' day of rest and cessation from labor and amusements Sunday was unknown to Jesus . . . It formed no tenet [teaching] of the primitive Church and became 'sacred' only in the course of time. Outside the Church its observance was legalized for the Roman Empire through a series of decrees starting with the famous one of Constantine in 321, an edict due to his political and social ideas."--W, W. Hyde, "Paganism to Christianity in the Roman Empire," 1946, p. 257.
"The festival of Sunday, like all other festivals, was always only a human ordinance, and it was far from the intentions of the apostles to establish a Divine command in this respect, far from them, and from the early apostolic Church, to transfer the laws of the Sabbath to Sunday."--Augustus Neander "The History of the Christian Religion and Church," 1843, p. 186.
"The [Catholic] Church took the pagan buckler of faith against the heathen. She took the pagan Roman Pantheon, [the Roman] temple to all the gods, and made it sacred to all the martyrs; so it stands to this day. She took the pagan Sunday and made it the Christian Sunday . . . The Sun was a foremost god with heathendom. Balder the beautiful: the White God, the old Scandinavians called him. The sun has worshipers at this very hour in Persia and other lands . . . Hence the Church would seem to have said, 'Keep that old, pagan name. It shall remain consecrated, sanctified.' And thus the pagan Sunday, dedicated to Balder, became the Christian Sunday, sacred to Jesus. The sun is a fitting emblem of Jesus. The Fathers often compared Jesus to the sun; as they compared Mary to the moon."--William L. Gildea, "Paschale Gaudium," in "The Catholic World," 58, March, 1894.
"The Church made a sacred day of Sunday . . . largely because it was the weekly festival of the sun;--for it was a definite Christian policy to take over the pagan festivals endeared to the people by tradition, and to give them a Christian significance."-- Arthur Weigall, "The Paganism in Our Christianity," 1928, p. 145.
"Remains of the struggle [between the religion of Christianity and the religion of Mithraism] are found in two institutions adopted from its rival by Christianity in the fourth century, the two Mithraic sacred days: December 25, 'dies natalis solis' [birthday of the sun], as the birthday of Jesus,--and Sunday, 'the venerable day of the Sun,' as Constantine called it in his edict of 321."--Walter Woodburn Hyde, "Paganism to Christianity in the Roman Empire," p. 60.
"Is it not strange that Sunday is almost universally observed when the Sacred Writings do not endorse it? Satan, the great counterfeiter, worked through the 'mystery of iniquity' to introduce a counterfeit sabbath to take the place of the true Sabbath of God. Sunday stands, side by side, with Ash Wednesday, Palm Sunday, Holy (or Maundy) Thursday, Good Friday, Easter Sunday, Whit-sunday, Corpus Christi, Assumption Day, All Soul's Day, Christmas Day, and a host of other ecclesiastical feast days too numerous to mention. This array of Roman Catholic feasts and fast days are all man made. None of them bears the divine credentials of the Author of the Inspired Word."--M. E. Walsh.
"Sun worship was the earliest idolatry."--A.R. Fausset, "Bible Dictionary," p. 666.
Sun worship was "one of the oldest components of the Roman religion."--Gaston H. Halsberghe, "the Cult of Sol Invictus," 1972, p. 26.
" 'Babylon, the mother of harlots,' derived much of her teaching from pagan Rome and thence from Babylon. Sun worship--that led her to Sundaykeeping,--was one of those choice bits of paganism that sprang originally from the heathen lore of ancient Babylon: 'The solar theology of the 'Chaldaeans' had a decisive effect upon the final development of Semitic paganism . . (It led to their] seeing the sun the directing power of the cosmic system. All the Baals were thence forward turned into suns; the sun itself being the mover of the other stars--like it eternal and "unconquerable.' . . . Such was the final form reached by the religion of the pagan Semites, and, following them, by that of the Romans . . . when they raised 'Sol Invictus' [the Invincible Sun] to the rank of supreme divinity in the Empire."--Franz V.M. Cumont, "The Frontier Provinces of the East," in "The Cambridge Ancient History," Vol. 11, pp. 643, 646-647.
"With [Constantine's father] Constantius Cholorus (A.D. 305) there ascended the throne [of the Roman Empire] a solar dynasty which . . . professed to have 'Sol Invictus' as its special protector and ancestor. Even the Christian emperors, Constantine and Constantius, did not altogether forget the pretensions which they could derive from so illustrious a descent."--Franz F.V.M. Cumont, "Astrology and Religion Among the Greeks and Roman," p. 55.
 
continued:
When Christianity conquered Rome, the ecclesiastical structure of the pagan church, the title and the vestments of the 'pontifex maximus,' the worship of the 'Great Mother' goddess and a multitude of comforting divinities, . . . the joy or solemnity of old festivals, and the pageantry of immemorial ceremony, passed like material blood into the new religion,--and captive Rome conquered her conqueror. The reins and skills of government were handed down by a dying empire to a virile papacy."--Will Durant, "Caesar and Christ," p. 672.
"The power of the Caesars lived again in the universal dominion of the popes."--H.G. Guiness, "Romanism and the Reformation."
"From simple beginnings, the church developed a distinct priesthood and an elaborate service. In this way, Christianity and the higher forms of paganism tended to come nearer and nearer to each other as time went on. In one sense, it is true, they met like armies in mortal conflict, but at the same time they tended to merge into one another like streams which had been following converging courses."--J.H. Robinson, "Introduction to the History of Western Europe," p. 31.
"Like two sacred rivers flowing from paradise, the Bible and divine Tradition contain the Word of God, the precious gems of revealed truth. Though these two divine streams are in themselves, on account of their divine origin, of equal sacredness, and are both full of revealed truths, still, of the two, Tradition [the sayings of popes and councils] is to us more clear and safe."--Di Bruno, "Catholic Belief," p. 33.
"Unquestionably the first law, either ecclesiastical or civil, by which the Sabbatical observance of that day is known to have been ordained, is the edict of Constantine, 321 A.D."--"Chamber's Encyclopedia," article, "Sabbath."
to be contined to conclusion
 
continued:
Here is the first Sunday Law in history, a legal enactment by Constantine 1 (reigned 306-331): "On the Venerable Day of the Sun ["venerabili die Solis"--the sacred day of the Sun] let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed. In the country, however, persons engaged in agriculture may freely and lawfully continue their pursuits; because it often happens that another day is not so suitable for grain-sowing or for vine-planting; lest by neglecting the proper moment for such operations the bounty of heaven should be lost--Given the 7th day of March, [A.D. 321], Crispus and Constantine being consuls each of them for the second time."--The First Sunday Law of Constantine 1, in "Codex Justinianus," lib. 3, tit. 12, 3; trans. in Phillip Schaff "History of the Christian Church," Vol. 3, p. 380.
"This [Constantine's Sunday decree of March, 321] is the 'parent' Sunday law making it a day of rest and release from labor. For from that time to the present there have been decrees about the observance of Sunday which have profoundly influenced European and American society. When the Church became a part of State under the Christian emperors, Sunday observance was enforced by civil statutes, and later when the Empire was past, the Church, in the hands of the papacy, enforced it by ecclesiastical and also by civil enactments."--Walter W. Hyde, "Paganism to Christianity in the Roman Empire," 1946, p. 261.
"Constantine's decree marked the beginning of a long, though intermittent series of imperial decrees in support of Sunday rest."-- Vincent J. Kelly, "Forbidden Sunday and Feast-Day Occupations," 1943, p. 29.
"Constantine labored at this time untiringly to unite the worshipers of the old and the new into one religion. All his laws and contrivances are aimed at promoting this amalgamation of religions. He would by all lawful and peaceable means melt together a purified heathenism and a moderated Christianity . . . Of all his blending and melting together of Christianity and heathenism, none is more easy to see through than this making of his Sunday law: The Christians worshiped their Christ, the heathen their Sun-god . . . [so they should now be combined."--H.G. Heggtveit, "illustreret Kirkehistorie," 1895, p. 202.
"If every Sunday is to be observed joyfully by the Christians on account of the resurrection, then every Sabbath on account of the burial is to be regarded in execration [cursing] of the Jews."--Pope Sylvester, quoted by S.R.E. Humbert, "Adversus Graecorum Calumnias," in J.P. Migne, "Patrologie," p. 143. [Sylvester (A.D. 314-337) was the pope at the time Constantine 1 was Emperor.]
"All things whatsoever that were prescribed for the [Bible] Sabbath, we have transferred them to the Lord's day, as being more authoritative and more highly regarded and first in rank, and more honorable than the Jewish Sabbath."--Bishop Eusebius, quoted in J.P. Migne, "Patrologie," p. 23, 1169-1172. [Eusebius of Caesarea was a high-ranking Catholic leader during Constantine's lifetime.]
As we have already noted, excepting for the Roman and Alexandrian Christians, the majority of Christians were observing the seventh-day Sabbath at least as late as the middle of the fifth century [A.D. 450]. The Roman and Alexandrian Christians were among those converted from heathenism. They began observing Sunday as a merry religious festival in honor of the Lord's resurrection, about the latter half of the second century A.D. However, they did not try to teach that the Lord or His apostles commanded it. In fact, no ecclesiastical writer before Eusebius of Caesarea in the fourth century even suggested that either Christ or His apostles instituted the observance of the first day of the week.
"These Gentile Christians of Rome and Alexandria began calling the first day of the week 'the Lord's day.' This was not difficult for the pagans of the Roman Empire who were steeped in sun worship to accept, because they [the pagans] referred to their sun-god as their 'Lord.' "--EM. Chalmers, "How Sunday Came Into the Christian Church," p. 3.
 
The following statement was made 100 years after Constantine's Sunday Law was passed: "Although almost all churches throughout the world celebrate the sacred mysteries on the Sabbath every week, yet the Christians of Alexandria and at Rome, on account of some ancient tradition, have ceased to do this."--Socrates Scholasticus, quoted in "Ecclesiastical History," Book 5, chap. 22. [Written shortly after A.D. 439.]
"The people of Constantinople, and almost everywhere, assemble together on the Sabbath, as well as on the first day of the week, which custom is never observed at Rome or at Alexandria."--Hermias Sozomen, quoted in "Ecclesiastical History," vii, 19, in "A Select Library of Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers," 2nd Series, Vol. 2, p. 390. [Written soon after AD. 415.]
"Down even to the fifth century the observance of the Jewish Sabbath was continued in the Christian church, but with a rigor and solemnity gradually diminishing until it was wholly discontinued."--Lyman Coleman, "Ancient Christianity Exemplified" chap. 26, sec. 2, p. 527.
"Constantine's [five Sunday Law] decrees marked the beginning of a long though intermittent series of imperial decrees in support of Sunday rest."--"A History of the Councils of the Church," Vol. 2, p. 316.
"What began, however, as a pagan ordinance, ended as a Christian regulation; and a long series of imperial decrees, during the fourth, fifth, and sixth centuries, enjoined with increasing stringency abstinence from labor on Sunday."--Huttan Webster, "Rest Days," pp. 122-123, 210.
Here is the first Sunday Law decree of a Christian council. It was given about 16 years after Constantine's first Sunday Law of A.D. 321: "Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday [in the original: "sabbato"--shall not be idle on the Sabbath], but shall work on that day; but the Lord's day they shall especially honour, and as being Christians, shall, if possible, do no work on that day. If, however, they are found Judaizing, they shall be shut out ['anathema,'--excommunicated] from Christ."--Council of Laodicea, c. A.D. 337, Canon 29, quoted in C.J. Hefele, "A History of the Councils of the Church," Vol. 2, p. 316.
"The keeping of the Sunday rest arose from the custom of the people and the constitution of the [Catholic] Church . . . Tertullian was probably the first to refer to a cessation of affairs on the Sun day; the Council of Laodicea issued the first counciliar legislation for that day; Constantine 1 issued the first civil legislation."--Priest Vincent J. Kelly, "Forbidden Sunday and Feast-Day Occupations," p. 203. [A thesis presented to the Catholic University of America.]
"About 590, Pope Gregory, in a letter to the Roman people, denounced as the prophets of Antichrist those who maintained that work ought not to be done on the seventh day."--James T. Ringgold, "The Law of Sunday," p. 267.
In the centuries that followed, persecution against believers in the Bible Sabbath intensified until very few were left alive. When the Reformation began, the true Sabbath was almost unknown.
"Now the [Catholic] Church . . . instituted, by God's authority, Sunday as the day of worship. This same Church, by the same divine authority, taught the doctrine of Purgatory . . . We have, therefore, the same authority for Purgatory as we have for Sunday."--Martin J. Scott, "Things Catholic's Are Asked About," 1927, p. 236.
"Of course the Catholic Church claims that the change [of the Sabbath to Sunday] was her act . . . AND THE ACT IS A MARK of her ecclesiastical power."--from the office of Cardinal Gibbons, through Chancellor H.F. Thomas, November 11, 1895.


PROTESTANTS...ARE YOU AWARE OF THIS?

continued from last post:

"It would be an error to attribute ['the sanctification of Sunday'] to a definite decision of the Apostles. There is no such decision mentioned in the Apostolic documents [that is, the New Testament] ."--Antoine Villien, "A History of the Commandments of the Church," 1915, p. 23.
"It must be confessed that there is no law in the New Testament concerning the first day."--McClintock and Strong, "Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological and Ecclesiastical Literature," Vol. 9, p. 196.
"Rites and ceremonies, of which neither Paul nor Peter ever heard, crept silently into use, and then claimed the rank of divine institutions. [Church] officers for whom the primitive disciples could have found no place, and titles which to them would have been altogether unintelligible, began to challenge attention, and to be named apostolic."--William B. Killen, "The Ancient Church," p. xvi.
"Until well into the second century [a hundred years after Christ] we do not find the slightest indication in our sources that Christians marked Sunday by any kind of abstention from work."--W. Rordorf "Sunday," p. 157.
"The ancient Sabbath did remain and was observed, by the Christians of the Eastern Church [in the area near Palestine] above three hundred years after our Saviour's death."--"A Learned Treatise of the Sabbath," p. 77.
"Modern Christians who talk of keeping Sunday as a 'holy' day, as in the still extant 'Blue Laws,' of colonial America, should know that as a 'holy' day of rest and cessation from labor and amusements Sunday was unknown to Jesus . . . It formed no tenet [teaching] of the primitive Church and became 'sacred' only in the course of time. Outside the Church its observance was legalized for the Roman Empire through a series of decrees starting with the famous one of Constantine in 321, an edict due to his political and social ideas."--W, W. Hyde, "Paganism to Christianity in the Roman Empire," 1946, p. 257.
 
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MORE FOR THE PROTESTANTS

"The festival of Sunday, like all other festivals, was always only a human ordinance, and it was far from the intentions of the apostles to establish a Divine command in this respect, far from them, and from the early apostolic Church, to transfer the laws of the Sabbath to Sunday."--Augustus Neander "The History of the Christian Religion and Church," 1843, p. 186.
"The [Catholic] Church took the pagan buckler of faith against the heathen. She took the pagan Roman Pantheon, [the Roman] temple to all the gods, and made it sacred to all the martyrs; so it stands to this day. She took the pagan Sunday and made it the Christian Sunday . . . The Sun was a foremost god with heathendom. Balder the beautiful: the White God, the old Scandinavians called him. The sun has worshipers at this very hour in Persia and other lands . . . Hence the Church would seem to have said, 'Keep that old, pagan name. It shall remain consecrated, sanctified.' And thus the pagan Sunday, dedicated to Balder, became the Christian Sunday, sacred to Jesus. The sun is a fitting emblem of Jesus. The Fathers often compared Jesus to the sun; as they compared Mary to the moon."--William L. Gildea, "Paschale Gaudium," in "The Catholic World," 58, March, 1894.
"The Church made a sacred day of Sunday . . . largely because it was the weekly festival of the sun;--for it was a definite Christian policy to take over the pagan festivals endeared to the people by tradition, and to give them a Christian significance."-- Arthur Weigall, "The Paganism in Our Christianity," 1928, p. 145.
"Remains of the struggle [between the religion of Christianity and the religion of Mithraism] are found in two institutions adopted from its rival by Christianity in the fourth century, the two Mithraic sacred days: December 25, 'dies natalis solis' [birthday of the sun], as the birthday of Jesus,--and Sunday, 'the venerable day of the Sun,' as Constantine called it in his edict of 321."--Walter Woodburn Hyde, "Paganism to Christianity in the Roman Empire," p. 60.
"Is it not strange that Sunday is almost universally observed when the Sacred Writings do not endorse it? Satan, the great counterfeiter, worked through the 'mystery of iniquity' to introduce a counterfeit sabbath to take the place of the true Sabbath of God. Sunday stands, side by side, with Ash Wednesday, Palm Sunday, Holy (or Maundy) Thursday, Good Friday, Easter Sunday, Whit-sunday, Corpus Christi, Assumption Day, All Soul's Day, Christmas Day, and a host of other ecclesiastical feast days too numerous to mention. This array of Roman Catholic feasts and fast days are all man made. None of them bears the divine credentials of the Author of the Inspired Word."--M. E. Walsh.
"Sun worship was the earliest idolatry."--A.R. Fausset, "Bible Dictionary," p. 666.
Sun worship was "one of the oldest components of the Roman religion."--Gaston H. Halsberghe, "the Cult of Sol Invictus," 1972, p. 26.
" 'Babylon, the mother of harlots,' derived much of her teaching from pagan Rome and thence from Babylon. Sun worship--that led her to Sundaykeeping,--was one of those choice bits of paganism that sprang originally from the heathen lore of ancient Babylon: 'The solar theology of the 'Chaldaeans' had a decisive effect upon the final development of Semitic paganism . . (It led to their] seeing the sun the directing power of the cosmic system. All the Baals were thence forward turned into suns; the sun itself being the mover of the other stars--like it eternal and "unconquerable.' . . . Such was the final form reached by the religion of the pagan Semites, and, following them, by that of the Romans . . . when they raised 'Sol Invictus' [the Invincible Sun] to the rank of supreme divinity in the Empire."--Franz V.M. Cumont, "The Frontier Provinces of the East," in "The Cambridge Ancient History," Vol. 11, pp. 643, 646-647.
 
MORE FOR THE PROTESTANTS

"With [Constantine's father] Constantius Cholorus (A.D. 305) there ascended the throne [of the Roman Empire] a solar dynasty which . . . professed to have 'Sol Invictus' as its special protector and ancestor. Even the Christian emperors, Constantine and Constantius, did not altogether forget the pretensions which they could derive from so illustrious a descent."--Franz F.V.M. Cumont, "Astrology and Religion Among the Greeks and Roman," p. 55.
"When Christianity conquered Rome, the ecclesiastical structure of the pagan church, the title and the vestments of the 'pontifex maximus,' the worship of the 'Great Mother' goddess and a multitude of comforting divinities, . . . the joy or solemnity of old festivals, and the pageantry of immemorial ceremony, passed like material blood into the new religion,--and captive Rome conquered her conqueror. The reins and skills of government were handed down by a dying empire to a virile papacy."--Will Durant, "Caesar and Christ," p. 672.
"The power of the Caesars lived again in the universal dominion of the popes."--H.G. Guiness, "Romanism and the Reformation."
"From simple beginnings, the church developed a distinct priesthood and an elaborate service. In this way, Christianity and the higher forms of paganism tended to come nearer and nearer to each other as time went on. In one sense, it is true, they met like armies in mortal conflict, but at the same time they tended to merge into one another like streams which had been following converging courses."--J.H. Robinson, "Introduction to the History of Western Europe," p. 31.
"Like two sacred rivers flowing from paradise, the Bible and divine Tradition contain the Word of God, the precious gems of revealed truth. Though these two divine streams are in themselves, on account of their divine origin, of equal sacredness, and are both full of revealed truths, still, of the two, Tradition [the sayings of popes and councils] is to us more clear and safe."--Di Bruno, "Catholic Belief," p. 33.
"Unquestionably the first law, either ecclesiastical or civil, by which the Sabbatical observance of that day is known to have been ordained, is the edict of Constantine, 321 A.D."--"Chamber's Encyclopedia," article, "Sabbath."
Here is the first Sunday Law in history, a legal enactment by Constantine 1 (reigned 306-331): "On the Venerable Day of the Sun ["venerabili die Solis"--the sacred day of the Sun] let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed. In the country, however, persons engaged in agriculture may freely and lawfully continue their pursuits; because it often happens that another day is not so suitable for grain-sowing or for vine-planting; lest by neglecting the proper moment for such operations the bounty of heaven should be lost--Given the 7th day of March, [A.D. 321], Crispus and Constantine being consuls each of them for the second time."--The First Sunday Law of Constantine 1, in "Codex Justinianus," lib. 3, tit. 12, 3; trans. in Phillip Schaff "History of the Christian Church," Vol. 3, p. 380.
"This [Constantine's Sunday decree of March, 321] is the 'parent' Sunday law making it a day of rest and release from labor. For from that time to the present there have been decrees about the observance of Sunday which have profoundly influenced European and American society. When the Church became a part of State under the Christian emperors, Sunday observance was enforced by civil statutes, and later when the Empire was past, the Church, in the hands of the papacy, enforced it by ecclesiastical and also by civil enactments."--Walter W. Hyde, "Paganism to Christianity in the Roman Empire," 1946, p. 261.
"Constantine's decree marked the beginning of a long, though intermittent series of imperial decrees in support of Sunday rest."-- Vincent J. Kelly, "Forbidden Sunday and Feast-Day Occupations," 1943, p. 29.
"Constantine labored at this time untiringly to unite the worshipers of the old and the new into one religion. All his laws and contrivances are aimed at promoting this amalgamation of religions. He would by all lawful and peaceable means melt together a purified heathenism and a moderated Christianity . . . Of all his blending and melting together of Christianity and heathenism, none is more easy to see through than this making of his Sunday law: The Christians worshiped their Christ, the heathen their Sun-god . . . [so they should now be combined."--H.G. Heggtveit, "illustreret Kirkehistorie," 1895, p. 202.
"If every Sunday is to be observed joyfully by the Christians on account of the resurrection, then every Sabbath on account of the burial is to be regarded in execration [cursing] of the Jews."--Pope Sylvester, quoted by S.R.E. Humbert, "Adversus Graecorum Calumnias," in J.P. Migne, "Patrologie," p. 143. [Sylvester (A.D. 314-337) was the pope at the time Constantine 1 was Emperor.]

"All things whatsoever that were prescribed for the [Bible] Sabbath, we have transferred them to the Lord's day, as being more authoritative and more highly regarded and first in rank, and more honorable than the Jewish Sabbath."--Bishop Eusebius, quoted in J.P. Migne, "Patrologie," p. 23, 1169-1172. [Eusebius of Caesarea was a high-ranking Catholic leader during Constantine's lifetime.]

As we have already noted, excepting for the Roman and Alexandrian Christians, the majority of Christians were observing the seventh-day Sabbath at least as late as the middle of the fifth century [A.D. 450]. The Roman and Alexandrian Christians were among those converted from heathenism. They began observing Sunday as a merry religious festival in honor of the Lord's resurrection, about the latter half of the second century A.D. However, they did not try to teach that the Lord or His apostles commanded it. In fact, no ecclesiastical writer before Eusebius of Caesarea in the fourth century even suggested that either Christ or His apostles instituted the observance of the first day of the week.
"These Gentile Christians of Rome and Alexandria began calling the first day of the week 'the Lord's day.' This was not difficult for the pagans of the Roman Empire who were steeped in sun worship to accept, because they [the pagans] referred to their sun-god as their 'Lord.' "--EM. Chalmers, "How Sunday Came Into the Christian Church," p. 3.
The following statement was made 100 years after Constantine's Sunday Law was passed: "Although almost all churches throughout the world celebrate the sacred mysteries on the Sabbath every week, yet the Christians of Alexandria and at Rome, on account of some ancient tradition, have ceased to do this."--Socrates Scholasticus, quoted in "Ecclesiastical History," Book 5, chap. 22. [Written shortly after A.D. 439.]
"The people of Constantinople, and almost everywhere, assemble together on the Sabbath, as well as on the first day of the week, which custom is never observed at Rome or at Alexandria."--Hermias Sozomen, quoted in "Ecclesiastical History," vii, 19, in "A Select Library of Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers," 2nd Series, Vol. 2, p. 390. [Written soon after AD. 415.]
"Down even to the fifth century the observance of the Jewish Sabbath was continued in the Christian church, but with a rigor and solemnity gradually diminishing until it was wholly discontinued."--Lyman Coleman, "Ancient Christianity Exemplified" chap. 26, sec. 2, p. 527.
"Constantine's [five Sunday Law] decrees marked the beginning of a long though intermittent series of imperial decrees in support of Sunday rest."--"A History of the Councils of the Church," Vol. 2, p. 316.
"What began, however, as a pagan ordinance, ended as a Christian regulation; and a long series of imperial decrees, during the fourth, fifth, and sixth centuries, enjoined with increasing stringency abstinence from labor on Sunday."--Huttan Webster, "Rest Days," pp. 122-123, 210.
Here is the first Sunday Law decree of a Christian council. It was given about 16 years after Constantine's first Sunday Law of A.D. 321: "Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday [in the original: "sabbato"--shall not be idle on the Sabbath], but shall work on that day; but the Lord's day they shall especially honour, and as being Christians, shall, if possible, do no work on that day. If, however, they are found Judaizing, they shall be shut out ['anathema,'--excommunicated] from Christ."--Council of Laodicea, c. A.D. 337, Canon 29, quoted in C.J. Hefele, "A History of the Councils of the Church," Vol. 2, p. 316.
"The keeping of the Sunday rest arose from the custom of the people and the constitution of the [Catholic] Church . . . Tertullian was probably the first to refer to a cessation of affairs on the Sun day; the Council of Laodicea issued the first counciliar legislation for that day; Constantine 1 issued the first civil legislation."--Priest Vincent J. Kelly, "Forbidden Sunday and Feast-Day Occupations," p. 203. [A thesis presented to the Catholic University of America.]

continued to conclusion
 
SO WHERE DO PROTESTANTS STAND ON THIS ISSUE? Based on Knowledge that is Available? How are they Holding Up under scrutiny?

CONFLICT AND DIVISION OVER THE SABBATH DAY:


PROTESTANTISM SPEAKS

Baptist: "There was and is a command to keep holy the Sabbath day, but that Sabbath day was not Sunday. It will however be readily said, and with some show of triumph, that the Sabbath was transferred from the seventh to the first day of the week, with all its duties, privileges and sanctions. Earnestly desiring information on this subject, which I have studied for many years, I ask, where can the record of such a transaction be found? Not in the New Testament--absolutely not. There is no scriptural evidence of the change of the Sabbath institution from the seventh to the first day of the week."--Dr. E.T. Hiscox, author of the "Baptist Manual."

Congregationalist: "It is quite clear that however rigidly or devotedly we may spend Sunday, we are not keeping the Sabbath . . . The Sabbath was founded on a specific, divine command. We can plead no such command for the observance of Sunday . . . There is not a single line in the New Testament to suggest that we incur any penalty by violating the supposed sanctity of Sunday."--Dr. R.W. Dale, "The Ten Commandments," p. 106-107.

Lutheran Free Church: "For when there could not be produced one solitary place in the Holy Scriptures which testified that either the Lord Himself or the apostles had ordered such a transfer of the Sabbath to Sunday then it was not easy to answer the question: Who has transferred the Sabbath, and who has had the right to do it?"--George Sverdrup, "A New Day."

Protestant Episcopal: "The day is now changed from the seventh to the first day . . . but as we meet with no Scriptural direction for the change, we may conclude it was done by the authority of the church."--"Explanation of Catechism."

Baptist: "The Scriptures nowhere call the first day of the week the Sabbath . . . There is no Scriptural authority for so doing, nor of course, any Scriptural obligation"--"The Watchman."

Presbyterian: "There is no word, no hint in the New Testament about abstaining from work on Sunday. The observance of Ash Wednesday, or Lent, stands exactly on the same footing as the observance of Sunday. Into the rest of Sunday no Divine Law enters."--Canon Eyton, in "The Ten Commandments."

Anglican: "And where are we told in the Scriptures that we are to keep the first day at all? We are commanded to keep the seventh; but we are nowhere commanded to keep the first day."--Isaac Williams, "Plain Sermons on the Catechism," pp. 334, 336.

Methodist: "It is true that there is no positive command for infant baptism. Nor is there any for keeping holy the first day of the week. Many believe that Christ changed the Sabbath. But, from His own words, we see that He came for no such purpose. Those who believe that Jesus changed the Sabbath base it only on a supposition."--Amos Binney, "Theological Compendium," pp. 180-181.

Episcopalian: "We have made the change from the seventh day to the first day, from Saturday to Sunday, on the authority of the one holy, catholic, apostolic church of Christ."--Bishop Symour, "Why We Keep Sunday."

Southern Baptist: "The sacred name of the Seventh day is Sabbath. This fact is too clear to require argument [Exodus 20:10 quoted] . . . On this point the plain teaching of the Word has been admitted in all ages . . . Not once did the disciples apply the Sabbath law to the first day of the week,--that folly was left for a later age, nor did they pretend that the first day supplanted the seventh."--Joseph Judson Taylor, "The Sabbatic Question," pp. 14, 15, 16-17, 41.

American Congregationalist: "The current notion that Christ and His apostles authoritatively substituted the first day for the seventh, is absolutely without any authority in the New Testament."--Dr. Lyman Abbot, in the "Christian Union," June 26, 1890.

Christian Church: "Now there is no testimony in all the oracles of heaven that the Sabbath is changed, or that the Lord's Day came in the room of it."--Alexander Campbell, in 'The Reporter," October 8, 1921.

Disciples of Christ: "There is no direct Scriptural authority for designating the first day 'the Lord's Day.' "--Dr. O.H. Lucas, in the "Christian Oracle,"January 23, 1890.

Baptist: "To me it seems unaccountable that Jesus, during three years' discussion with His disciples, often conversing with upon the Sabbath question, discussing it in some of its various aspects, freeing it from its false [Jewish traditional] glosses, never alluded to any transference of the day; also, that during the forty days of His resurrection life, no such thing was intimated. Nor, so far as we know, did the Spirit, which was given to bring to their remembrance all things whatsoever that He had said unto them, deal with this question. Nor yet did the inspired apostles, in preaching the gospel, founding churches, counseling and instructing those founded, discuss or approach the subject.
"Of course I quite well know that Sunday did come into use in early Christian history as a religious day, as we learn from the Christian Fathers and other sources. But what a pity that it comes branded with the mark of Paganism, and christened with the name of the sun-god, then adopted and sanctified by the Papal apostasy, and bequeathed as a sacred legacy to Protestantism."--Dr. E. I. Hiscox, report of his sermon at the Baptist Minister's Convention, in "New York Examiner," November 16, 1893. "

Sunday sacredness is not commanded or practiced in the Bible.
 
FAIR ENOUGH?

#1.A SABBATH TIME LINE FROM EDEN TO EDEN

A chain of truth in twelve links, linking God to His people in the Holy Sabbath.

At the Creation --
The Sabbath given to mankind
Genesis 2:1-3
Exodus 31:10-11
Before Sinai --
The Sabbath for 2500 years
Exodus 16:4,26,28,30
At Sinai --
The Sabbath written down
Exodus 20:8-11
After Sinai --
The Sabbath in the Old Testament
Numbers 15:32-35
Jeremiah 17:21-27
(Fulfilled: Jer 52:7-15;
2 Chr 36:19-21)
Jesus Our Example --
The Sabbath of Christ
Luke 4:16,1 Peter 2:21
Mark 2:28, Isaiah 42:21
Mark 1:21, 1 John 2:6
The Disciples --
The Sabbath of His people
Luke 23:56-24:1
Paul --
The Sabbath of the Apostles
Acts 17:2, 13:14, 42, 44, 16:13
After the Time of Christ (At the destruction of Jerusalem and the end of the world) --
Matthew 24:1-3, 20
The Dark Ages and the Last Days --
The Sabbath in the Christian Era
Revelation 12:17
Last Day Restoration Predicted --
The Sabbath of our time
Isaiah 58:12-14
Revelation 12:17, 14:12
Heaven and the New Earth --
The Sabbath for eternity
Revelation 22:14
Isaiah 66:22-23
Your Special Day with God --
The Sabbath founded upon Scripture
Exodus 31:13,17
Isaiah 56:2,4,6
Ezekiel 20:12,20
All through the Bible, we find much information about the precious Bible Sabbath. And this is as we would expect, for the Sabbath is the connecting link between man and his God.
Can we do any better than to do the best? And the best is given us in the pages of holy Scripture. There we find God's plan for our lives. And it is a wonderful plan.
Just now, become a link in God's Sabbath time line; For it reaches to eternity
A SUNDAY TIME LINE FROM EDEN TO EDEN
...........................................................................................................................

#2. A chain of facts in twelve links disproving a man-made error--the Sunday-sacredness error.

At the Creation --
Sunday sacredness not known
Bible texts vindicating Sunday: None
Before Sinai --
Sunday sacredness never found
Bible texts vindicating Sunday: None
At Sinai --
Sunday sacredness totally missing
Bible texts vindicating Sunday: None
After Sinai --
Sunday sacredness completely absent
Bible texts vindicating Sunday: None
Jesus Our Example --
Sunday sacredness totally ignored
Bible texts vindicating Sunday: None
The Disciples --
Sunday sacredness not mentioned
Bible texts vindicating Sunday: None
Paul --
Sunday sacredness never spoken of
Bible texts vindicating Sunday: None
After the time of Christ (At the destruction of Jerusalem and the end of the world) --
Sunday sacredness entirely missing
Bible texts vindicating Sunday: None
The Dark Ages --
Sunday sacredness--such an error predicted!
Daniel 7:25, 8:10-12
Revelation 13:6-7
Revelation 17:5-6
Last Days --
Sunday sacredness--No, but return to Bible Sabbath predicted
Isaiah 58:12-14
Revelation 12:17, 14:12
Heaven and the New Earth --
Sunday sacredness totally missing
Bible texts vindicating Sunday: None
Your Special Day with God --
Sunday sacredness--nowhere found in Scripture
Bible texts vindicating Sunday: None
All through the Bible we find absolutely nothing said about Sunday sacredness.
There is no text anywhere in Scripture that tells us that Sunday is holy unto the Lord, or that it has become the new sabbath.

Now there is a level playing field on something signifiicant in the Scriptures.
 
Mamita said:
now these people feel justified to be praying to that biblical figure, but that is praying to someone other than God, same thing for the saints, and same thing for Jesus the flesh (that had a face, hair, eyes different than anythng u can see around).
that's the only thing u can't deny is that prayers are being sent to some who are not God by being on ur knees in front of a paiting or a statue.

worship : a. The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or a sacred object.
b. The ceremonies, prayers, or other religious forms by which this love is expressed.
Click to expand...



I POSTED DOCUMENTATION ON Catholic Teaching and Protestant Teaching. I thought that it would be helpful to PROTESTANTS, TO LEARN ABOUT CATHOLICS AND ABOUT THEMSELVES. I know that it has become religiously politically correct to say we are all Christian.... we basically believe the same things.....love is all that matters...but as believers....

Are we really all on the same page here?


1 Corinthians 8:6 "yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him"

Ephesians 4: "3Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4There is ONE BODY, and ONE SPIRIT, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5ONE LORD, ONE FAITH, ONE BAPTISM, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."

'One Lord, ONE FAITH , One Baptism..."...this is really open for question.

Question: Amos 3:3 "Can two walk together, except they agree?"

Well, if you read all of the documentation, you will know what you do and do not agree on for sure.
 
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thank you, I am an ex catholic, my whole family is still catholic, when i converted to Holiness i did my research and i know first hand what catholics think and do, i have both devoted and less devoted catholics in my family...so i know about Catholics and myself lol
 
Mamita said:
thank you, I am an ex catholic, my whole family is still catholic, when i converted to Holiness i did my research and i know first hand what catholics think and do, i have both devoted and less devoted catholics in my family...so i know about Catholics and myself lol
Click to expand...

I knew you were aware. So many are not, and Protestants, particulary do not get where Catholics are coming from, and just assume that we are under one big 'Christian umbrella' of FAITH AND UNITY, and walking around uninformed thinking and saying 'What are you guys doing? I don't get how you can justify images ...while Catholics say: "Why are you persecuting me?...criticizing me?...We have our own traditions....period! we are different...separate!"
 
puro_tumbao said:
It is that, but mostly that I feel some kind of way worshipping an image that is most likely inaccurate. No one knows what He looks like, and I *feel* that the reason why we don't know exactly how He looks and why we shouldn't have an image in mind is that it does not matter in terms with your walk with Him.
Click to expand...
If I recall correctly, there is scripture that describes his appearance. Not down to the exact details, but enough to get a general idea.

The bottom line is that I see having a picture of Him as being no different from people who have photos displayed of someone they love. And because people aren't seen as worshipping the people in those photos, I don't see why this would be categorized differently.
 
nathansgirl1908 said:
If I recall correctly, there is scripture that describes his appearance. Not down to the exact details, but enough to get a general idea.

The bottom line is that I see having a picture of Him as being no different from people who have photos displayed of someone they love. And because people aren't seen as worshipping the people in those photos, I don't see why this would be categorized differently.
Click to expand...

We don't pray to those people we love cause thye can do nothing for us lol
Now if i asked you to paint for me the likeness of my grandfather that you've never seen. You're gonna paint him as you IMAGINE him, in the end you'll show me a paiting of a guy who's a mix between your uncle, your father and your grandfather. But that's not who i asked for. yet it still represents people that exist.
so all these representations of Jesus are actual people most probably but not him at all, but everybody accepts it, that big lie everybody is ok with
do you have ONE picture of Jesus where he has short black hair? cause he preached against long hair for men so i doubt he preached against something he did himself
or where he was ugly? cause it said there was no desire for him
or where he was tanned? north africa is hecka sunny lol
is there such an image somewhere?
even if there is it will be still a lie, like u'll show me ur idea of my grandfather, ill say that's not him, why you put his name under ur paiting?
 
Again I understand somewhat you are saying, but I don't think you can really compare a picture of a loved one (aka human being) vs a image of God/Jesus (the most Holy of holy entities). I treat this as something that is *too* scared to even have a graven image. To me, it's about respect for the sacredness, and not even putting God on the level as a pagan idol.

And yes there is a description, but it is definitely not enough to get an accurate vision of what He really looked like. How can there be accurate images with a vague description?

I really wish I could articulate this better, I do believe that there are people who really do, whether inadvertently or not, are worshipping those holy images.

With all this that is stated in this thread, and boy it's getting heavy lol, I would like to ask the following: How does the images play a role in your worship of God and following His Word? Are they even necessary?

nathansgirl1908 said:
If I recall correctly, there is scripture that describes his appearance. Not down to the exact details, but enough to get a general idea.

The bottom line is that I see having a picture of Him as being no different from people who have photos displayed of someone they love. And because people aren't seen as worshipping the people in those photos, I don't see why this would be categorized differently.
Click to expand...
 
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puro_tumbao said:
Again I understand somewhat you are saying, but I don't think you can really compare a picture of a loved one (aka human being) vs a image of God/Jesus (the most Holy of holy entities). I treat this as something that is *too* scared to even have a graven image. To me, it's about respect for the sacredness, and not even putting God on the level as a pagan idol.

And yes there is a description, but it is definitely not enough to get an accurate vision of what He really looked like. How can there be accurate images with a vague description?

I really wish I could articulate this better, I do believe that there are people who really do, whether inadvertently or not, are worshipping those holy images.

With all this that is stated in this thread, and boy it's getting heavy lol, I would like to ask the following: How does the images play a role in your worship of God and following His Word? Are they even necessary?
Click to expand...

I consider God to BE my loved One. And throughout it all I consider Him and everything about Him to be sacred, but I also have a relationship where I feel like He is simply my Father. Honestly I think some people have a strained relationship with God because they make it so stiff and rigid and formalistic all in the name of being reverent that they forget that He wants to have a warm, loving relationship with us.

And you say you BELIEVE that there are people who worship those images, but do you know that for a FACT? Are you inside their head when they are worshipping or praying?

I like to see the images of God that have been depicted in various ways. But they don't play a role in my worship. They are just nice to look at. I guess I'm trying to say that I don't think simply having a picture is that serious. I don't know anyone who claims to worship the image they have on their wall. They just like having it there.

And in making the comparison between the photo of God and a photo of a family member, the point is that people can have those images around without giving them more weight than they deserve.
 
Mamita said:
We don't pray to those people we love cause thye can do nothing for us lol
Now if i asked you to paint for me the likeness of my grandfather that you've never seen. You're gonna paint him as you IMAGINE him, in the end you'll show me a paiting of a guy who's a mix between your uncle, your father and your grandfather. But that's not who i asked for. yet it still represents people that exist.
so all these representations of Jesus are actual people most probably but not him at all, but everybody accepts it, that big lie everybody is ok with
do you have ONE picture of Jesus where he has short black hair? cause he preached against long hair for men so i doubt he preached against something he did himself
or where he was ugly? cause it said there was no desire for him
or where he was tanned? north africa is hecka sunny lol
is there such an image somewhere?
even if there is it will be still a lie, like u'll show me ur idea of my grandfather, ill say that's not him, why you put his name under ur paiting?
Click to expand...
I am sorry but I don't understand the point you are making. :nono:
 
Not just catholic, there are 20+ others I can name who partake in use of religious images and they will back it up by scripture. It's so not a "catholic" thing. :yep: My issue is that some kinds of christians are more accepted in the CF and other types are not. If I read a non-catholic opinion on an issue, I'm not going to condemn it for it's non-"universal" perspective and I'm not going to expect they give mine. Afterall, they can only give the one they are most familiar with and since we're all adults, we should have already comprehended this. It's a little short-sighted to expect anything else. It's beyond rude to suggest that one is superior over another and that we need to learn from another one about ourselves when we have ourselves to learn about ourselves from...plus 2,000 years of history and nearly 4,000 years of Judaism, our older brother. :perplexed But in the same time, one should not be ashamed to give their side at all. Let's be mindful and care of accusing who is not "christian." Please.

There is only one body of Christ. We are all expressing it differently. Like prayer, there are some who believe that others in heaven can intercede for us here. There are those who believe that we can pray for souls. There are others who read a literal translation of the bible. There are others who implement the Old Testament laws into their daily christianity. It's all differing perspectives. But when we start claiming that people are "pagan" or that they are part of some "whore of Babylon," we are stepping into the realm of insult. It's not necessary and it's divisive. We can discuss with mutual respect. But please don't expect someone to give your perpective when only you have it.
 
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