Can someone who doesn't believe that Jesus is God be a Christian?

[EbonyEyes]

Whew!!!!!!

Okay so I told the guy that we disagreed on something that means so much to me and that's who Jesus Christ is.

He then kept me on the phone for over an hour hurling out scriptures to counter my claims.

Ya'll...he's really good! He knows those scriptures boy!!!

But I didn't sway. I had scriptures to support my belief but I knew that it wouldn't sway him either. I just decided to put it out there. I told him that we can stay on the phone for 4 hours and we are still not going to agree.

So I told him that I appreciate his invite because it allowed me to discover for myself who Jesus Christ was by asking God and reading the scriptures with God's interpretation and not my own.

I then told him that it wouldn't be right for us to continue having bible study together.

He seemed understanding and said he admired my questioning mind and how I research to discover the truth. And he hopes that one day I'll discover the truth because we can only worship God in spirit AND in truth...*Uh huh*.

So that's what happened!

 

[Tamsin2005]

Sounds like you did a great job my dear! And your question challenged many of us to "search the scriptures" about these issues. Thank you!

 

[melangeK]

What Trinity is NOT:
3-in-1 does NOT mean that God (Father), Jesus (Son), & Holy Spirit are the same
They are NOT the same
They are NOT 3 separate gods either

What Trinity IS:
*The unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three persons in one Godhead according to Christian dogma
*The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit one in essence (in nature)
*Jesus and the Holy Spirit work together in Christians in order for us to have a relationship and constant communication with God


WOW--what a great breakdown, Poohbear! What you have posited above is EXACTLY what I believe from the teachings I have received, the study I have done of the Word on my own, and the reflection received from prayer and requests from the Holy Spirit for understanding on this subject.

I think a previous poster was correct in that many people's definition of the word "trinity" is what causes so much confusion. So much of the time, I have felt like I was "wrong" for believing that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were not one and the same (Father=Son=HS). Other believers have had me feeling that I just didn't "get it" and would leave it at that. On the other hand, I would feel like we believed much of the same thing, just explained it differently if that makes sense.

The whole "sameness" angle had me to believe that I did not believe in the Trinity at all. However, going by the definition you've presented, I believe in the trinity 1000%. So in many ways, I suppose it's a matter of definition and semantics. What a great topic to stimulate our continual growth, and thanks to everyone who's taken the time to share their insights!

BTW--Thx especially to Poohbear for providing that diagram...great for us visual thinkers!

 

[star]

Sounds like you did a great job my dear! And your question challenged many of us to "search the scriptures" about these issues. Thank you!

Yes, we are so proud of you. God use you to bring information and revelation to someone. That is what this is all about seeking the scriptures and talking with others.

My final thoughts:

Sometimes we respond not understanding where people are with their walk and their talk. Everyone is at different levels and through faith, love, studying, praying etc. we will all get where we need to be.

Now we know God is over Jesus and Holy Spirit and these all came from God so He is God(Head). Mary became pregnant by the Holy spirit not a human. God was in heaven and earth at the same time but in another form(the flesh). God had to put on the robe of flesh and come to earth so He himself could experience what it feels like to be hurt, hungry, betrayed, happy, sad etc. If you study the old testament throughly you will see many complain to their leaders such as Moses that God did not understand what they were going through(I am paraphrasing) thats why in some cases there was alot of mourning and bitterness with God's chosen people. So God in Isisiah 9:6 proclaimedthe coming of Jesus and what he would do. Some of reactions from some where taken to the extreme because is what not clear so scriptures to back up any response is the absolute key.
All in all it is all good and this teaches us that many us look at things differently but with the proper scriptures, love, fasting/praying, bible study, more bible study, and most importantly praying to God for understanding the truth will be revealed. For some scriptures I understood what they meant but it was not until I experience something that it really came alive for me so life is good teacher too and when have the scriputes you can apply it to each and everything that happens in your life.


Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

 

[Poohbear]

you're welcome melangeK!!!

 

[EbonyEyes]

Yes, we are so proud of you. God use you to bring information and revelation to someone. That is what this is all about seeking the scriptures and talking with others.

My final thoughts:

Sometimes we respond not understanding where people are with their walk and their talk. Everyone is at different levels and through faith, love, studying, praying etc. we will all get where we need to be.

Now we know God is over Jesus and Holy Spirit and these all came from God so He is God(Head). Mary became pregnant by the Holy spirit not a human. God was in heaven and earth at the same time but in another form(the flesh). God had to put on the robe of flesh and come to earth so He himself could experience what it feels like to be hurt, hungry, betrayed, happy, sad etc. If you study the old testament throughly you will see many complain to their leaders such as Moses that God did not understand what they were going through(I am paraphrasing) thats why in some cases there was alot of mourning and bitterness with God's chosen people. So God in Isisiah 9:6 proclaimedthe coming of Jesus and what he would do. Some of reactions from some where taken to the extreme because is what not clear so scriptures to back up any response is the absolute key.
All in all it is all good and this teaches us that many us look at things differently but with the proper scriptures, love, fasting/praying, bible study, more bible study, and most importantly praying to God for understanding the truth will be revealed. For some scriptures I understood what they meant but it was not until I experience something that it really came alive for me so life is good teacher too and when have the scriputes you can apply it to each and everything that happens in your life.


Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Thank you Star!

I love the above post. Many times during prayer, I thank God for Jesus, not only because he died for our sins (which is huge in of itself) but because 1) I understand better the nature of God because Jesus was a perfect manifestation of God and 2) Jesus, as a man, experienced what humans experience. It comforts me that God knows what I'm going through because Jesus went through it -- He ate, he slept, he learned, he prayed, he was tempted, he suffered, and he cried.

When I cry to God about something that's going on in my life, I know He understands because the Son lived a human life as well and knows how difficult it is.

When I'm hurt because someone I called a friend abandons me, I know that He understands because Jesus was betrayed by his friend Judas and denied by his friend Peter.

As I continue to gain wisdom, I remember that Jesus had to learn as well. He had to study the Torah and pray -- and as he did that, he learned more of what His purpose was.

I am grateful for Jesus and I am grateful that my Heavenly Father saw that we his children needed Jesus to come and show us the way.

 

[EbonyEyes]

What Trinity is NOT:
3-in-1 does NOT mean that God (Father), Jesus (Son), & Holy Spirit are the same
They are NOT the same
They are NOT 3 separate gods either

What Trinity IS:
*The unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three persons in one Godhead according to Christian dogma
*The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit one in essence (in nature)
*Jesus and the Holy Spirit work together in Christians in order for us to have a relationship and constant communication with God

This image may help you out to a great extent:

John 1:1-18 is a great scripture in the Bible to support the concept of Trinity.

Check out this nice website to help you out more about Trinity, especially Part 05: http://www.heaven.net.nz/writings/trinity.htm

Wow! Thanks Poohbear! And that image was a great help. I really must be a visual person!

 

[EbonyEyes]

I LOVE YOUR H2O ANALOGY!!!

I agree! That analogy is awesome. I'm going to use it!

 

[EbonyEyes]

I believe if someone is really unsure, they should ask God, and don't worry about what man tells you.

This is key!

My mom has told me that it is so incredibly important to know the Word for yourself and to ask God for guidance.

So when the JW told me that Jesus wasn't God, I took his comments in for consideration because I realized that the reason I believed Jesus was God was because I was taught that by **people**.

So I went into prayer and I paraphrase: "Father God, people have told me all of my life that Jesus was God. And then I have a gentleman tell me that Jesus wasn't. To this point, I've been listening to people. Can you reveal to me through your voice and your Word who Jesus Christ is?"

And then I sung one of my favorite songs by the Kurt Carr singers:

"Just one word is all we need to destroy captivity and break the chains that are binding. One Rhema word, designed with your expertise tailor made for me. Speak Lord, through Your Word, reveal Yourself to me."

Then I began searching the scriptures, asking for God's guidance along the way.

And God revealed the truth to me.

So I learned a very valuable lesson. It's okay to consult pastors and religious leaders. But ultimate confirmation should come from God.

 

[star]

AMEN!! We need a combination of it all with God being the main source.

This is key!

My mom has told me that it is so incredibly important to know the Word for yourself and to ask God for guidance.

So when the JW told me that Jesus wasn't God, I took his comments in for consideration because I realized that the reason I believed Jesus was God was because I was taught that by **people**.

So I went into prayer and I paraphrase: "Father God, people have told me all of my life that Jesus was God. And then I have a gentleman tell me that Jesus wasn't. To this point, I've been listening to people. Can you reveal to me through your voice and your Word who Jesus Christ is?"

And then I sung one of my favorite songs by the Kurt Carr singers:

"Just one word is all we need to destroy captivity and break the chains that are binding. One Rhema word, designed with your expertise tailor made for me. Speak Lord, through Your Word, reveal Yourself to me."

Then I began searching the scriptures, asking for God's guidance along the way.

And God revealed the truth to me.

So I learned a very valuable lesson. It's okay to consult pastors and religious leaders. But ultimate confirmation should come from God.

 

[cocoberry10]

I LOVE YOUR H2O ANALOGY!!!

Thanks Poohbear!

 

[JuJuBoo]

DANGIT I'm LATE!

I was going to add something, but wow, everything was said, and well said! (aaand it was much shorter than the previous and imfamous Trinity thread. ) Kudos to EbonyEyes. Girl, I commend you for breaking out both translations and REALLY seeing where they differ and where the TRUTH is. This was a GREAT thread!

 

[star]

DANGIT I'm LATE!

I was going to add something, but wow, everything was said, and well said! (aaand it was much shorter than the previous and imfamous Trinity thread. ) Kudos to EbonyEyes. Girl, I commend you for breaking out both translations and REALLY seeing where they differ and where the TRUTH is. This was a GREAT thread!

I was looking and waiting for you to add your anointed 2 cents which would have been worth 2 million.

 

[EbonyEyes]

This guy is persistent! He just emailed me (he had my email address because I emailed him about having the fashion show pictures ready) and told me on watchtower.org is an article called "Is Jesus Christ God?". He ends the email with "Keep searching for your answers!! 1 John 4:1"

He won't let this thing go.

 

[MrsQueeny]

This guy is persistent! He just emailed me (he had my email address because I emailed him about having the fashion show pictures ready) and told me on watchtower.org is an article called "Is Jesus Christ God?". He ends the email with "Keep searching for your answers!! 1 John 4:1"

He won't let this thing go.

Report him as spam so you won't get anymore emails. They can be persistent I had a couple that would come over and I had to firmly tell them no. I told them that we would not convince each other and that I was very happy with my church and that they should try to reach out to those who don't believe in GOD or had a church home. Q

 

[EbonyEyes]

DANGIT I'm LATE!

I was going to add something, but wow, everything was said, and well said! (aaand it was much shorter than the previous and imfamous Trinity thread. ) Kudos to EbonyEyes. Girl, I commend you for breaking out both translations and REALLY seeing where they differ and where the TRUTH is. This was a GREAT thread!

JuJuBoo!! How are you sweetie?

 

[JuJuBoo]

JuJuBoo!! How are you sweetie?

Hey! I'm fine! Been mad busy with work that's why I've been MIA.

 

[Blackbird77]

Ebonyeyes,

I would suggest that you check out www.carm.org (The Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry) They have a section on JW.

I am Christian and I know that Jesus, the Holy Spirit and The Father are God and are one. I happen to work with a JW who I respect very much. Of course our beliefs are completely different. I found at the beginning when we started to get close (can't say friendship because they can't be friends with non JWs) a lot of what she said to me seemed like sound doctrine causing me to become doubtful about my own beliefs. This confusion for me was a blessing from God because it helped me to realize that many of my own beliefs were based on things I had been taught not on what I had studied for myself. As a result I dug into my own bible and did my own studying. As a result my initial beliefs about the Trinity were confirmed. As someone stated before although there is no mention of the word trinity there are many references to the deity of all three (Father, Son and Holy Spirit). i.e. in the Hebrew manuscripts in Genesis Elohim is used for "God". This word is plural not singular. "Immanuel" means God with us - not God's representative with us.

But going back to this man you met... one thing seems suspicious to me. One thing I remember hearing from my coworker is that men are supposed to "study" with men and "women" with women.

Anyway, you can try to plant a seed but please know that it would pretty much be futile to try to have a discussion with a JW. It would pretty much be onesided. They are not really interested in what "wordly" (anyone who is not a JW including christians) have to say and even if they hear you they already have a trained response for what you have to say. (if she says "a" I respond with "b"). They go to "studies" at least three times a week. They are taught what to say and what to think without the freedom to question what they are being taught. They are conditioned to block out anything that goes against what they believe. One more thing. Everytime they witness to someone or "study" with someone they are building up heavenly points. Yes they actually have to report this stuff to the watchtower/kingdom hall. Yep, I would take Jesus' yoke over this stuff any day. Don't humor this guy. Again, check out that site and there are so many other sites if you're interested. Just do some research.

May I ask how do you know this? Did he tell you that? Just wondering.

 

[newme2003]

Blackbird77,

I promise that I will respond to this later on tonight. I am at work and do not have the links to the different websites I got this from.

 

[Sweet C]

Anyway, you can try to plant a seed but please know that it would pretty much be futile to try to have a discussion with a JW. It would pretty much be onesided. They are not really interested in what "wordly" (anyone who is not a JW including christians) have to say and even if they hear you they already have a trained response for what you have to say. (if she says "a" I respond with "b"). They go to "studies" at least three times a week. They are taught what to say and what to think without the freedom to question what they are being taught. They are conditioned to block out anything that goes against what they believe. One more thing. Everytime they witness to someone or "study" with someone they are building up heavenly points. Yes they actually have to report this stuff to the watchtower/kingdom hall. Yep, I would take Jesus' yoke over this stuff any day. Don't humor this guy. Again, check out that site and there are so many other sites if you're interested. Just do some research.

In the words of my man Flame, "Is that in the bible? that in the bible?". We know that is not in the Orthodox, Catholic or Protestant canons. So is it even in the JW bible

Jujuboo, girl where have you been? We have missed you.

 

[Blackbird77]

Blackbird77,

I promise that I will respond to this later on tonight. I am at work and do not have the links to the different websites I got this from.

You don't have to do that, newme. I just wanted to know if he said that to you are not. Thanks for answering my question.

 

[newme2003]

You don't have to do that, newme. I just wanted to know if he said that to you are not. Thanks for answering my question.

My coworker is a woman and no she did not tell me this. I got this information from a couple of apologetics websites and sites dedicated to ex JWs.

 

[Crystalicequeen123]

This guy is persistent! He just emailed me (he had my email address because I emailed him about having the fashion show pictures ready) and told me on watchtower.org is an article called "Is Jesus Christ God?". He ends the email with "Keep searching for your answers!! 1 John 4:1"

He won't let this thing go.

Not to ruin your feeling of finally feeling comfortable with how you feel on the Jesus/God issue....
But, you prayed for God to help you find the truth right?? Well, suppose this guy's persistence....maybe it could be a sign from God?? Instead of quitting your study with that guy and decidning not to talk to him anymore, what if you just listened to what he had to say and continued to read your bible? Perhaps you need to continue to search??

I don't see what it could hurt. So, you don't agree on everything...that's fine. But I don't think that listening to opposing viewpoints ever killed anyone. As long as he was nice and "understanding", then maybe it wouldn't have been a bad thing?

I'm just saying...this guy seemed nice, and he seemed like he wanted to share with you what he's learning. And for him to take the time out of his schedule in order to help teach someone else about the bible can be viewed as a commendable thing.

But otherwise, I say...continue your search! That is very commendable that you are now trying to search out answers from the bible on your own instead of just believing what your pastors, or other people tell you. I'm a firm believer that the truth will set you free.

 

[Crystalicequeen123]

My coworker is a woman and no she did not tell me this. I got this information from a couple of apologetics websites and sites dedicated to ex JWs.

Hmm...that's interesing. I'm actually kind of curious to know what your coworker would say about that information. I think I would probably believe your coworker than what some website of ex JW's said. But, haha...that's just me!

That's almost like asking an ex-husband or an ex-wife about their EX!

 

[EbonyEyes]

Not to ruin your feeling of finally feeling comfortable with how you feel on the Jesus/God issue....
But, you prayed for God to help you find the truth right?? Well, suppose this guy's persistence....maybe it could be a sign from God?? Instead of quitting your study with that guy and decidning not to talk to him anymore, what if you just listened to what he had to say and continued to read your bible? Perhaps you need to continue to search??

I don't see what it could hurt. So, you don't agree on everything...that's fine. But I don't think that listening to opposing viewpoints ever killed anyone. As long as he was nice and "understanding", then maybe it wouldn't have been a bad thing?

I'm just saying...this guy seemed nice, and he seemed like he wanted to share with you what he's learning. And for him to take the time out of his schedule in order to help teach someone else about the bible can be viewed as a commendable thing.

But otherwise, I say...continue your search! That is very commendable that you are now trying to search out answers from the bible on your own instead of just believing what your pastors, or other people tell you. I'm a firm believer that the truth will set you free.

I gave him an hour and a half to listen to his viewpoints and go through the Bible with him as he talked. I did not interrupt him and really considered what he was saying. Jesus shook things up with the truth. Why can't JW shake things up with the truth? Then I went home and prayed about it and asked God to reveal to me through his Word and through his voice what the truth was. I told God that I love him soooo much and if worshipping Jesus as God is wrong then he needs to let me know TODAY. Because I want to worship God the way he deserves to be worshipped. I studied for 3 hours. I feel that God has already given me my answer.

When I told the JW my feelings, he kept me on the phone for another hour trying to convince me that I was wrong.

I told him that I appreciated him taking time out of his schedule to meet with me. But it would no longer be appropriate for me to continue Bible study with him.

I feel that once God gives me the answer that I'm searching for, it's done.

I made that mistake of doubting God's voice with the Mormons. I felt after meeting #2 that things about the Mormon faith were very wrong. I prayed about it. But I kept rationalizing that it was my fear of learning something new, even if it was true. I even read their Book of Mormon. Then God basically knocked me upside the head with the truth. I was ignoring the taps so He used more drastic measures.

I then told the Mormons that I grately appreciated them coming to meet with me. They were so nice. Then I told them that us meeting anymore would be inappropriate.

The problem is this guy is trying to convince me that he is right. And he's been taught on how to convince me.

I gave him some scriptures and his answers to the questions were really interesting -- it almost sounded like it was what he was taught to say. I went to this website later that talked about the JW faith and how they will respond to your questions. I was shocked. There were two scriptures that I mentioned and the website says "You will most likely get this answer...." The wording of the answer was on the money!

What it boils down to is - I'm not going to keep a door open for someone to convince me of something that's not true.

 

[newme2003]

Hmm...that's interesing. I'm actually kind of curious to know what your coworker would say about that information. I think I would probably believe your coworker than what some website of ex JW's said. But, haha...that's just me!

That's almost like asking an ex-husband or an ex-wife about their EX!

Are you a jehovah's witness?

 

[Enchantmt]

In the words of my man Flame, "Is that in the bible? that in the bible?". We know that is not in the Orthodox, Catholic or Protestant canons. So is it even in the JW bible

Jujuboo, girl where have you been? We have missed you.

Actually the bible speaks of rewards and crowns for works on earth that are given in heaven, but it is not unto salvation.

 

[Tamsin2005]

Someone very dear to me was a JW. And like you, I did read and study their material. But even from what I read from their own literature just didn't make sense and didn't seem...right. I went so far as to attend a few of their meetings. I found Randy Watters ministry out of a broken heart for a man who had zeal and hunger for the Lord but was caught up in a belief system that was more concerned with works than God's grace. My friend was baptized as a JW, married a fellow JW. At the age of 37, this beautiful man died because his religion did not allow blood transfusions. He had sickle cell disease.

So like many of you, my search for truth was sincere, and I allowed myself to ponder what JW's believe. I read their literature (they are not allowed to read yours, by the way), I attended their services and my conclusion was that I could not find any scriptural or historical support for their beliefs.

Our "job" as Christians is to rightly handle God's word and to know it, not in a combative way necessarily but to give answers for the hope within us. That's what people are looking for...why should I believe in your God. It's hard not to want to "win" them for Christ. The truth is unless they open their hearts and do as you've done which is to critically, analytically study God's word, pray and seek God they will not come to know Him. So our prayers for your JW friend are not prayers made in self righteousness (which I know you're not doing) but for mercy and grace with a big dollop of thanksgiving!

 

[EbonyEyes]

Someone very dear to me was a JW. And like you, I did read and study their material. But even from what I read from their own literature just didn't make sense and didn't seem...right. I went so far as to attend a few of their meetings. I found Randy Watters ministry out of a broken heart for a man who had zeal and hunger for the Lord but was caught up in a belief system that was more concerned with works than God's grace. My friend was baptized as a JW, married a fellow JW. At the age of 37, this beautiful man died because his religion did not allow blood transfusions. He had sickle cell disease.

So like many of you, my search for truth was sincere, and I allowed myself to ponder what JW's believe. I read their literature (they are not allowed to read yours, by the way), I attended their services and my conclusion was that I could not find any scriptural or historical support for their beliefs.

Our "job" as Christians is to rightly handle God's word and to know it, not in a combative way necessarily but to give answers for the hope within us. That's what people are looking for...why should I believe in your God. It's hard not to want to "win" them for Christ. The truth is unless they open their hearts and do as you've done which is to critically, analytically study God's word, pray and seek God they will not come to know Him. So our prayers for your JW friend are not prayers made in self righteousness (which I know you're not doing) but for mercy and grace with a big dollop of thanksgiving!

Hi,

I'm really sorry to hear about your friend.

I found a booklet that the JW guy gave me to read. There's a page that says what JW believe and the scriptual reason. Here are some for those who are interested:

-Christ is God's Son and is inferior to Him
-Christ died on a stake, not a cross
-Christ's human life was paid as a ransom for obedient humans
-Christ was raised from the dead as an immortal spirit person
-Earth will never be destroyed or depopulated
-Hell is mankind's common grave (The JW guy said that they don't believe in Hell being a place of fire but the grave where you ceast to exist)
-Only a flock of 144,000 go to heaven and rule with Christ
-The 144,000 are born again as spiritual sons of God
-Prayers are to be directed only to Jehovah through Christ (Translation: No praying to Christ or the Holy Spirit)
-Images should not be used in worship (They don't believe in crosses being in churches during worship)
-A Christian ought to have no part in interfaith movements
-Taking blood into body through mouth or veins violates God's laws
-Sabbath observance was given only to Israel and ended with Mosaic Law
-A clergy class and special titles are improper

 

[Crystalicequeen123]

Are you a jehovah's witness?

Yes I am. Yeah, the reason why I asked if you had personally asked what your JW coworker thought about that information was because many times I feel like people misunderstand a lot about our religion, or they go by "hear-say" or what they see/read in the media. And I know that we (JW's) have not been necessarily portrayed in a "favorable" light in the media or even on the internet.

There is a plethora of information on the internet, and that's why even when you're doing research papers, the teachers/professors would rather you use a source other than the internet (unless it's from a reputable database of course!). You sort of see what I'm saying? Because along with GOOD valid information online, there is also false information online (we all know this), and to me (this is just my personal opinion) it would be better to go to the "horse's mouth" so-to-speak and look at what the JW official website says about the beliefs of JW's instead of what ex-JW members say. I'm just saying... at least if you go to the official website you have the TRUTH about what JW's believe, and not someone's "interpretation" of what JW's believe.

But also, I just wanted to add too that I think a lot of people may get the wrong idea about us (JW's), and call us "a sect" and stuff that like, but if you put yourself in our shoes, it can't possibly feel good to know that a lot of people think negative things about your religion. And why out of a lot of religions out here, the JW religion is looked down upon so much, where as if you're catholic or baptist then that's "okay" I guess. But oh well... that's why it's a free country I guess. You can choose what to believe and what not to believe I suppose. Even Jesus had people who didn't agree with him, and ended up killing him, so I guess we shouldn't be too surprised.

PS- EbonyEyes: I guess the only thing I can say is continue to have that thirst for bible knowledge. That's an excellent thing. Even though we may not agree on the same things at least you seemed to give that fellow JW guy a fair chance. And if you got a sign from God, then I suppose you have your answer. Btw, what sign did you get? Just curious....