SEQUEL: Can a person who doesn't believe Jesus is God be a Christian?

[GodMadeMePretty]

As JCoily exits the Christianity forum, I make my first appearance.

No person currently on this earth can say that another person is not/was not a Christian. Only God can decide that. You can "believe" what you like about another person's salvation, but thankfully, not one person on this earth will be the determining judge of who actually has God's salvation. NO ONE!!

 

[BlkHoneyLuv2U]

As JCoily exits the Christianity forum, I make my first appearance.

No person currently on this earth can say that another person is not/was not a Christian. Only God can decide that. You can "believe" what you like about another person's salvation, but thankfully, not one person on this earth will be the determining judge of who actually has God's salvation. NO ONE!!

And on that note, let the church say AAAAMAN

 

[Poohbear]

No person currently on this earth can say that another person is not/was not a Christian. Only God can decide that. You can "believe" what you like about another person's salvation, but thankfully, not one person on this earth will be the determining judge of who actually has God's salvation. NO ONE!!

This is so true.

 

[Poohbear]

In that same chapter, if you read a bit further, the scripture says "And the word became flesh and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the father) full of grace and truth" Me personally know what I know and it took the grace of God to reveal who Jesus was to me. Every one will know when it is their time to know. Before that time, it is fruitless to debate who Jesus is to those that havent received revelation.

Ladydee, if you feel that you are right, explain it to her. Don't just end it off with her by saying it is a fruitless debate and saying that she hasn't received revelation. No one is righteous, not even one...

Anyway JCoily, when ladydee mentioned this scripture where it says "the word became flesh" it is talking about the transformation of Jesus, in other words, God becoming human... When Jesus came into this world, He was God in human form to dwell among us, to give us an example of a perfect sinless person. Jesus was the glory of God. When people mention how Jesus was both fully human and fully divine, he was fully human because he was an actual human with flesh and blood, he was fully divine because he was of God's essence... perfect and sinless.

It is very confusing.... Let me go find my picture that I posted in that other forum.

Besides that, I really dont see how this thread is a sequel... I think that other thread was sufficient enough. But maybe it will help others understand the concept of Trinity rather than pointing fingers as to who is Christian and who's not a Christian.

 

[Poohbear]

You say that "The Word" = Jesus. I say "The Word" = God. I read it literally, you read it figuratively.

I know you were responding to EbonyEyes but I have a question for you...read carefully, what I just typed may get confusing.

John 1:1 says "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

You said that "The Word = God"... if you are reading it literally, how can that be? I'm just trying to understand how you interpreted it...

For example, let's replace "the Word" with "God" in that verse...

"In the beginning was 'God' and 'God' was with God and 'God' was God"... that doesn't make sense.

Do you see what I'm saying. If not, please let me know how you interpreted this verse.

 

[Poohbear]

Here you go ladies! I found the diagram that explains the concept of Trinity... a nice visual:

What Trinity is NOT:
3-in-1 does NOT mean that God (Father), Jesus (Son), & Holy Spirit are the same
They are NOT the same
They are NOT 3 separate gods either

What Trinity IS:
*The unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three persons in one Godhead according to Christian dogma
*The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit one in essence (in nature)
*Jesus and the Holy Spirit work together in Christians in order for us to have a relationship and constant communication with God

John 1:1-18 is a great scripture in the Bible to support the concept of Trinity.

Check out this nice website to help you out more about Trinity, especially Part 05: http://www.heaven.net.nz/writings/trinity.htm

 

[Poohbear]

And about salvation... I'm no expert but here's just a few verses on salvation...

Salvation's Freeway:

1. Romans 3:23 - Everyone has sinned
2. Romans 6:23 - The penalty for our sin is death
3. Romans 5:8 - Jesus Christ died for sin
4. Romans 10:8-10 - To be forgiven for our sin, we must believe and confess that Jesus is Lord. Salvation comes through Jesus Christ

If one has done that last step, he/she has salvation through Jesus Christ.

But if he/she continues in his/her sin and is unrepentant (meaning they do not ask for forgiveness nor turn away from sin), his/her salvation is questioned... but we as humans are not the ones to question or judge one's salvation, only God can.

Hope that helps some.

 

[BerrySweet]

Excellent explanations Pooh! Very enlightening-you should be a Sunday school teacher (if you're not already). Explanations like those help to bring people closer to the word because it is explained in a non-judgemental, non-condsecending and educational way. Beatuiful-even I learned something!

 

[Poohbear]

No problem BerrySweet. By the way, I am a Sunday school teacher at my church.

 

[cece22]

Excuse me but how can you call yourself a CHRISTian if you don't believe in Jesus the Christ? That's like me calling myself a Buddhist and I don't believe in Buddha. Christianity itself is based on the belief of Jesus the Christ.

Peace.

And where did I state that I don't believe in Christ? a Christian is a follower of Christ right? So I am a full breed Christian and I don't knock beliefs all things are truth in Christ. My research comes directly from the Bible and I speak of Christ to people on a personal level. I don't want to bomard this thread with masses of research that lead me to my conclusion. John 8:32 "and you will no the truth and the truth will set you free."

So if Jesus is God wouldn't he know all things?

 

[EbonyEyes]

And where did I state that I don't believe in Christ? a Christian is a follower of Christ right? So I am a full breed Christian and I don't knock beliefs all things are truth in Christ. My research comes directly from the Bible and I speak of Christ to people on a personal level. I don't want to bomard this thread with masses of research that lead me to my conclusion. John 8:32 "and you will no the truth and the truth will set you free."

So if Jesus is God wouldn't he know all things?

So you believe that
1) Jesus was sent by God to die for our sins?
2) Jesus was the promised messiah?
3) Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life?
4) Jesus is your personal Lord and Savior?

If so, then alrighty!!!

 

[cece22]

So you believe that
1) Jesus was sent by God to die for our sins?
2) Jesus was the promised messiah?
3) Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life?
4) Jesus is your personal Lord and Savior?

If so, then alrighty!!!

I see someone stated that somehow I don't believe in Christ just had to clear that up. I believe all 4 of these and so much more about the Christ believing is one thing following is another cause as the Apostle James of old said "faith without works is dead" James 2:22.

Enough said about me back to the original thread "Can a person who doesn't believe Jesus is God be a Christian?"

And again my answer is yes.

 

[Poohbear]

So if Jesus is God wouldn't he know all things?

Yes! He does, doesn't He? As Christians, He lives within our hearts and walks with us daily. He knows every single thing we do... just like God our Heavenly Father who watches over us all.

 

[Poohbear]

As for the original question of this thread: "Can a person who doesn't believe Jesus is God be a Christian?" I still don't have an answer... I don't believe anyone can really give an answer to that question. All I know that in order to be a Christian, you must confess with your mouth and believe in your heart that Jesus is the Son of God, Lord and Savior of your life. And you must pick up the cross and follow Him daily. Certain beliefs that raise controversial issues or disagreements are subjective and can't really be a basis as to whether you are a Christian or not. We are all at a certain level when it comes to Biblical knowledge and revelation. We can't go around judging people's salvation based on these certain beliefs like trinity, whether women should be preachers, homosexuality, and all these other issues that raise questions with people. We just need to focus on living a life according to God's purpose and be imitators of Christ as much as possible. Read your bible (listen and do what it says), pray, attend church, fellowship with Christians, and be blessed!

 

[cece22]

Yes! He does, doesn't He? As Christians, He lives within our hearts and walks with us daily. He knows every single thing we do... just like God our Heavenly Father who watches over us all.

At Mathew 24:36 NRS "But about that day and hour no one knows, neither the angels of heaven, nor the Son but only the Father."

So how is that the Father who is God Almighty knows things that the Christ who is the Son does not? If therefore Christ knows all things why is he ommited from knowing what the Father knows in the Scripture?

 

[Bublnbrnsuga]

I came across this question in my study of this subject:

Question: "Is Jesus God? Did Jesus ever claim to be God?"



Answer: Jesus is never recorded in the Bible as saying the exact words, “I am God.” That does not mean, however, that He did not proclaim that He is God. Take for example Jesus’ words in John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.” At first glance, this might not seem to be a claim to be God. However, look at the Jews’ reaction to His statement, “We are not stoning you for any of these, replied the Jews, but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God” (John 10:33). The Jews understood Jesus’ statement to be a claim to be God. In the following verses, Jesus never corrects the Jews by saying, “I did not claim to be God.” That indicates Jesus was truly saying He was God by declaring, “I and the Father are one” (John 10:30). John 8:58 is another example. Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, before Abraham was born, I am!" Again, in response, the Jews take up stones in an attempt to stone Jesus (John 8:59). Why would the Jews want to stone Jesus if He hadn’t said something they believed to be blasphemous, namely, a claim to be God?



John 1:1 says that “the Word was God.” John 1:14 says that “the Word became flesh.” This clearly indicates that Jesus is God in the flesh. Acts 20:28 tells us, "...Be shepherds of the church of God, which He bought with His own blood." Who bought the church with His own blood? Jesus Christ. Acts 20:28 declares that God purchased the church with His own blood. Therefore, Jesus is God!



Thomas the disciple declared concerning Jesus, “Lord and my God” (John 20:28). Jesus does not correct him. Titus 2:13 encourages us to wait for the coming of our God and Savior - Jesus Christ (see also 2 Peter 1:1). In Hebrews 1:8, the Father declares of Jesus, "But about the Son He says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom."



In Revelation, an angel instructed the Apostle John to only worship God (Revelation 19:10). Several times in Scripture Jesus receives worship (Matthew 2:11; 14:33; 28:9,17; Luke 24:52; John 9:38). He never rebukes people for worshiping Him. If Jesus were not God, He would have told people to not worship Him, just as the angel in Revelation had. There are many other verses and passages of Scripture that argue for Jesus’ deity.



The most important reason that Jesus has to be God is that if He is not God, His death would not have been sufficient to pay the penalty for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2). Only God could pay such an infinite penalty. Only God could take on the sins of the world (2 Corinthians 5:21), die, and be resurrected - proving His victory over sin and death.

gotanswers.org

 

[Poohbear]

The most important reason that Jesus has to be God is that if He is not God, His death would not have been sufficient to pay the penalty for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2). Only God could pay such an infinite penalty. Only God could take on the sins of the world (2 Corinthians 5:21), die, and be resurrected - proving His victory over sin and death.

You hit the nail on the head!

 

[Honey]

I am a little unclear with how the 2 scriptures you cited lead you to conclude that Jesus and God are the same. Those scriptures read as follows:

1 John 2:2 - And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world. (KJV)

To propitiate simply means to atone or reconcile for sin or wrongdoing. Adam and Eve were perfect humans, what was needed to reconcile their sins was another perfect human – Jesus in fleshy form.

2 Corinthians 5:21 - For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. (KJV)

Again, this scripture points to Jesus being without sin and that it’s only by means of his sacrificing his life that we can be made righteous before God.

The scripture that is most commonly used to support the idea that Jesus and God are the same is John 1:1. However, depending on the bible translation your may be using this scripture is translated as -

… the word was God (KJV)
… and what God was, the word was (New English Bible)
… the logos (Greek word generally translated word) was divine (Moffat)

The link below further explains John 1:1 – I won’t even try to paraphrase it as I know I won’t do it justice.



http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=247

~Honey

 

[comike]

Maybe I misunderstood your statement here. You seem to be implying that you are a Christian but you don't believe in Jesus. Meaning believing that He is the Christ. Throughout the NT, Jesus told spoke of who He is:

In Matthew 12:6, Jesus says to the Pharisees, "I say to you, that something greater than the Temple is here." How much greater? Look at verse 8. Referring to Himself, Jesus asserts, "The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath." How can anyone be Lord of the Sabbath except God who instituted it? This is a direct claim to deity.

In Matthew 23:37, Jesus speaks as though He has personally observed the whole history of Jerusalem:

0 Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.

In Mark 2:1,2, Jesus tells a paralyzed man, "My son, your sins are forgiven." Some scribes sitting there caught the obvious intent of Jesus' words and reasoned:

Why does this man speak in this way? Is he blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?

Jesus challenged them:

Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, "Your sins are forgiven"; or to say, "Arise, and take up your pallet and walk"? But in order that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins ...

And then Jesus healed the paralytic. The implication was obvious. No one forgives sin but God. Anyone could say he is able to forgive sin; but Jesus proved He had the authority to forgive sin when He healed the paralytic. Jesus was clearly claiming deity for Himself.

Back again in Matthew, at the end of the Sermon on the Mount (7:21-23), Jesus speaks of Himself as the ultimate judge who will have authority to deny entrance into the kingdom of heaven.

 

[Honey]

Comike, I am not sure if your comment is directed to me, however I’ll respond. I am a Christian and believe that Jesus is the Christ or Messiah. However, I do not equate Jesus being the Christ as him being equal to God (I don’t believe in the Trinity). My personal study of the bible and a couple of college religion classes has lead me to this conclusion.

In reference to the scripture you cite at Matt 12:6, my interpretation is different based upon the context of verses 1-8. Here, Jesus is being condemned for threshing wheat (or working) on the Sabbath – something that the Law condemns. He goes on to show other examples where people have violated the law and specifically mentions priests in the temple who desecrate the Sabbath and yet are not guilty. To me, these verses are about Jesus being greater than what the temple and the Sabbath represent – he’s the fulfillment of the Law covenant.

I’m also interpreting Matt 23:37 and Mark 2:5 differently than you are. Jesus could easily speak about Jerusalem’s history for two reasons: (1) he was a Jew and was instructed in the temple in accord with the Law and (2) going back to John 1:1, it says “in the beginning the Word was,” mean Jesus dwelt in heaven with God prior to coming to earth. He was the first of God’s creations and as such could witness their history. It is also because Jesus is the Word, that he has the authority to tell the paralyzed men that their sins were forgiven. The article in the prior post explains that Jesus being the Word or Logos means he is God’s mouthpiece, representative, or agent. That he acts on God’s behalf and in accord with his will.

Matt 7:21-says: Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Again, we have different interpretations of this scripture. I do not see this as Jesus equating himself to God or stating that he is the ultimate judge. My understanding is that he’s asking on God’s behalf – God is the ultimate judge, Jesus is the mediator.

~Honey

 

[cece22]

Comike, I am not sure if your comment is directed to me, however I’ll respond. I am a Christian and believe that Jesus is the Christ or Messiah. However, I do not equate Jesus being the Christ as him being equal to God (I don’t believe in the Trinity). My personal study of the bible and a couple of college religion classes has lead me to this conclusion.

In reference to the scripture you cite at Matt 12:6, my interpretation is different based upon the context of verses 1-8. Here, Jesus is being condemned for threshing wheat (or working) on the Sabbath – something that the Law condemns. He goes on to show other examples where people have violated the law and specifically mentions priests in the temple who desecrate the Sabbath and yet are not guilty. To me, these verses are about Jesus being greater than what the temple and the Sabbath represent – he’s the fulfillment of the Law covenant.

I’m also interpreting Matt 23:37 and Mark 2:5 differently than you are. Jesus could easily speak about Jerusalem’s history for two reasons: (1) he was a Jew and was instructed in the temple in accord with the Law and (2) going back to John 1:1, it says “in the beginning the Word was,” mean Jesus dwelt in heaven with God prior to coming to earth. He was the first of God’s creations and as such could witness their history. It is also because Jesus is the Word, that he has the authority to tell the paralyzed men that their sins were forgiven. The article in the prior post explains that Jesus being the Word or Logos means he is God’s mouthpiece, representative, or agent. That he acts on God’s behalf and in accord with his will.

Matt 7:21-says: Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Again, we have different interpretations of this scripture. I do not see this as Jesus equating himself to God or stating that he is the ultimate judge. My understanding is that he’s asking on God’s behalf – God is the ultimate judge, Jesus is the mediator.

~Honey

Wow Honey you really know your stuff your comments were very refreshing. Not to piggyback your comments. I just wanted to mention the scripture that eludes to Jesus being the first born of all creation which gives further food for thought about the discussion at hand. Here it mentions the ransom which was needed for the imperfect first man who sinned which was Adam. Only a person without sin could be the ransomer which was Jesus who was sent by his father. Jesus paid the ransom by shedding his innocent blood so we can be forgiven of our sins.

At Colossians 1 verse 15 it states that he is the firstborn of all creation now we all know that God was not created but rather he is the creator. Here Jesus is said to have been created how can he be the creator (Jehovah). And the one whom was first to be created. God created Jesus first then everything came after him. Jesus is God's son and they are not the same person.

1 Colossians 1:13-17
He delivered us from the authority of the darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of the Son of his love, 14 by means of whom we have our release by ransom, the forgiveness of our sins. 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him. 17

Proverbs 8:22-31 Is Jesus desribing his own creation? check it in the different translations of the Bible this scripture. Jesus was created it decribes how he was with God when he created everything including himself. How can he be God and be with God. Wouldn't he just be saying I created all things?

Proverbs 8:22- 31

22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. 23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. 24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. 25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: 26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. 27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: 28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: 29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth: 30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him; 31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.

 

[Honey]

Thanks, Cece22. I know that this can be a very controversial/sensitve subject for a lot of people, so I just want to emphasize that this is MY INTERPRETATION of the bible. However, I can also respect and appreciate what other people may believe.

~Honey