SEQUEL: Can a person who doesn't believe Jesus is God be a Christian?

[Denim And Leather]

Hello, Ladies

I was lurking in this forum last week, when I saw the thread “Can a person who doesn't believe Jesus is God be a Christian and not believe Jesus is God?"

The resounding answer is NO. Jesus clearly said in the bible that He is God, and if a person doesn’t believe He’s God, then they are rejecting His authority, for all authority has been given to Him (Matthew 28:18). Christianity either stands or falls on the claims of Christ, and if He claimed to be God, but really isn’t, then everything He said would be a lie; then that means He wasn’t resurrected, and if He wasn’t resurrected, then there is no Second Coming, no resurrection for the dead, and no hope for those of us who have accepted Christ, because that means we are still in our sins and will face eternal damnation, along with those who reject Christ.

Following Jesus’ teachings is one nice, but it means NOTHING if that person has never truly trusted Christ to save them from their sins, let alone believe He is God.

John 1:1 says about Jesus: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not *comprehend it. (This is from the authrorized King James Version, one of the most accurate translations.)

In John 10:30, Jesus says “I and My Father are one”.

The very reason Jesus was condemned to death by the Pharisees was for the crime of blasphemy: under Jewish law, if a person blasphemed God, this was punishable by death. To say that one is God is blasphemy, which is what Jesus said, because He IS God.

I have seen this said before about Jesus: that either Jesus was a liar, a lunatic, or who He said He was…the Son of God.

God has always existed, eternally in three persons; Father, Son and Holy Spirit. God is God the Father, Jesus is God the Son, and the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God. NOT manifestations, but Persons. One God, but three Persons.

No mere man could ever live a sinless, because we are all born with a sin nature. Jesus lived a sinless life, because He had no sin nature, because He is God. Yes, He was fully man, but he is also fully God, and never gave that up while He ministered here on earth.

See, God is holy and pure. While He is love, and loves us all, He is also just and cannot tolerate sin. He requires innocent blood to be shed in order to pay for sins, and again, since we are all sinners, we are not qualified to do this. That is why Jesus came down from the heaven, was born of a virgin, and lived among us. He faced temptation from Satan, but never sinned. He laid down His life to pay our sin debt, because none of us could ever do it. In other words, Jesus paid a debt He didn’t owe, because we owed a debt we couldn’t pay.

His death on the cross satisfied God’s requirement for justice. This analogy might sound familiar, but it bears worth repeating: if you committed a crime, and faced a judge, if the judge is a fair and impartial judge, He will fine you the $50,000.00 fine or go to jail. You don’t have the $50,000, but so the judge orders you to jail. It doesn’t matter if you committed this crime years ago and have been good since; it doesn’t matter how many good works and deeds you have done to make up for the crime, if the judge is an honest judge, he will still make you pay for your crime.

But if someone you don’t know steps in and pays the $50,000.00, then the judge will say you’re free to go, because your fine has been paid. That is exactly what Jesus has done for us. Only One who is God can do this for us and not a MERE MAN.

If you believe this, and want Jesus in your life, then repent, which means to turn away from your sins. Put your trust in Christ and make Him Lord of your life. He will give you a new heart with new desires, and will send His Holy Spirit to live in you. And He will never let you down.

I will be busy the next couple of days, and won't be replying to this thread. If any of you have any questions, please feel free to email me: [email protected].

Have a great night, and God bless you!

 

[star]

AMEN!!

See this thread done to help those with this question:

http://www.longhaircareforum.com/showthread.php?t=79811

 

[cece22]

I am a Christian and I don't believe Jesus is God. And this is due to extensive personal research and not what someone told me. Or what I feel to be true.

 

[Poohbear]

Denim And Leather, Amen!!! I agree... great post... but why did you have to start it up again?!?!

I am a Christian and I don't believe Jesus is God. And this is due to extensive personal research and not what someone told me. Or what I feel to be true.

For us Christians who believe Jesus is God, our belief is not based on what someone has told us or what we feel to be true. The Bible is all the proof and research one needs to see that Jesus was both fully human and fully divine.

 

[BlkHoneyLuv2U]

Denim And Leather, Amen!!! I agree... great post... but why did you have to start it up again?!?!

For us Christians who believe Jesus is God, our belief is not based on what someone has told us or what we feel to be true. The Bible is all the proof and research one needs to see that Jesus was both fully human and fully divine.

I T-Totally agree 100% and then some

 

[Denim And Leather]

Denim And Leather, Amen!!! I agree... great post... but why did you have to start it up again?!?!

Sorry, I didn't mean to start it up again. I felt compelled to make this thread. I hope this doesn't turn out to be a waste. erplexed

For us Christians who believe Jesus is God, our belief is not based on what someone has told us or what we feel to be true. The Bible is all the proof and research one needs to see that Jesus was both fully human and fully divine.

Not only that, but the Holy Spirit also bears witness to our spirit of the truth about Christ.

 

[Denim And Leather]

I am a Christian and I don't believe Jesus is God. And this is due to extensive personal research and not what someone told me. Or what I feel to be true.

Just because you feel a certain way doesn't mean you're right. What God says in His Word is what we need to listen to, because He's never been wrong.

Sometimes our feelings can be misleading.

 

[EbonyEyes]

Not only that, but the Holy Spirit also bears witness to our spirit of the truth about Christ.

This is so true! I'm reading this book by Joyce Meyer called "How to Hear From God". I also have the study guide that accompanies the reading. My goodness, this woman has you going through the scriptures and writing down what the scriptures mean to you.

It's like she's saying "Don't trust what I say. Trust what God's word says. Look it up and pray about it!"

As I'm getting closer to God and reading His Word more deeply, I'm starting to feel that peace that the Holy Spirit gives me more and more.

It's the same peace that I felt when I asked God to reveal to me whether his Son was God.

I think it's essential that when you are searching for an answer, don't just look up the scripture. Pray as well!

 

[Crackers Phinn]

See here is the thing. I believe God is God and Jesus is the son of God. Considering that there was an entire OLD TESTAMENT that didn't include or mention Jesus, BUT GOD WAS IN IT, I'd say I came to a logical conclusion.

So pity me for being less Christian than thou, if you will, but I'm cool with what I believe.

 

[EbonyEyes]

See here is the thing. I believe God is God and Jesus is the son of God. Considering that there was an entire OLD TESTAMENT that didn't include or mention Jesus, BUT GOD WAS IN IT, I'd say I came to a logical conclusion.

So pity me for being less Christian than thou, if you will, but I'm cool with what I believe.

Jesus was mentioned in the Old Testament (Read Isaiah for instance) so many times, it's not even funny.

Some of those who believe in Christophany believe that Jesus made countless appearances in the Old Testament.

 

[EbonyEyes]

Okay here goes:

First of all, Jesus existed from the very beginning like our Father existed in the beginning:

John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The Word is Jesus Christ.

In fact, he was the one who created the universe. (Genesis 1:1)

John 1:3 - All things were made by him and without him was not anything made that was made.

John 1:10 - He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

Colossians 1:14-16 - In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins; Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature. For by him were all things created that are in heaven and that are in earth....

Now, it says in quite a few scriptures that NO man has seen God the Father at anytime.

John 1:18 - No man hath seen God at any time.

John 6:46 (the words of Christ) - Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the father.

1 Timothy 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

So if NO man has seen the Father, then who were Moses, Joshua, Abraham and many others seeing and speaking with face-to-face?

Jesus Christ possibly!

The Lord says in Numbers 12:6-8 -- hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream. My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house. With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?

Read Genesis 32:24-30. Jacob wrestled with a man in verse 24. Later in the passage, Jacob asked for the man's name. The man then asks him "Why do you ask for my name" and the man blesses him. Then Jacob names the place Peniel bcause he saw God face-to-face and his life was spared.

The man Jacob wrestled could have been Jesus. Some may argue that the man was just a manifestation of God in the form of a man, NOT Jesus Christ.

Look at the next passage.

Joshua 5:13-15 -- And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries? And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my Lord unto his servant? And the captain of the LORD's host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.

Notice in this passage that this man, the captain of the host of the Lord, allowed Joshua to bow down and worship.

Contrast this to Acts 10:25-26 where Cornelius bowed down at Peter's feet to worship. Peter said "Stand up; I myself also am a man".

Also contrast the passage with Revelation 22:8-9 where John bowed down at an angel's feet to worship and the angel tells him not to do that. He tells him to worship God.

If this man that appeared to Joshua was just a manifestation of God in human form, then why did the manifestation call himself "The captain of the host of the Lord?"

Some food for thought.

 

[michc]

See here is the thing. I believe God is God and Jesus is the son of God. Considering that there was an entire OLD TESTAMENT that didn't include or mention Jesus, BUT GOD WAS IN IT, I'd say I came to a logical conclusion.

So pity me for being less Christian than thou, if you will, but I'm cool with what I believe

Yes, but you have to ask yourself is God 'cool' with what you believe?

I'm not trying to start anything (JCoily ), but I'm just saying like Denim and Leather pointed out that the Holy Spirit bears witness to our Spirit about Christ and who He is.

 

[mkh_77]

This constant "Us vs. Them" mentality is disgusting and this thread was created to further that mentality. Shameful.

 

[JuJuBoo]

This constant "Us vs. Them" mentality is disgusting and this thread was created to further that mentality. Shameful.

I don't see anything shameful about this thread. Has this topic been discussed before? yes. But I don't see anyone trying to further a "mentality"--they're having a discussion and using Scripture to support. Nothing shameful about that.

 

[comike]

I am a Christian and I don't believe Jesus is God. And this is due to extensive personal research and not what someone told me. Or what I feel to be true.

Excuse me but how can you call yourself a CHRISTian if you don't believe in Jesus the Christ? That's like me calling myself a Buddhist and I don't believe in Buddha. Christianity itself is based on the belief of Jesus the Christ.

Peace.

 

[comike]

Your comment about Jesus not being mentioned in the Old Testament is incorrect. Please take the time to sit down and read the Old Testament. Jesus' coming is prophesied throughout the Old Testament.

Peace.

 

[comike]

I am a Christian and I don't believe Jesus is God. And this is due to extensive personal research and not what someone told me. Or what I feel to be true.

My only comment to that is for you to earnestly seek His presence and you will find Him. If you really and truly want to know that He is real and if you seek His presence with all of your heart and soul, He will reveal Himself to you and no books, no TV show, no human being can ever disprove what you have witnessed for yourself.

 

[comike]

See here is the thing. I believe God is God and Jesus is the son of God. Considering that there was an entire OLD TESTAMENT that didn't include or mention Jesus, BUT GOD WAS IN IT, I'd say I came to a logical conclusion.

So pity me for being less Christian than thou, if you will, but I'm cool with what I believe.

Your comment about Jesus not being mentioned in the Old Testament is incorrect. Please take the time to sit down and read the Old Testament. Jesus' coming is prophesied throughout the Old Testament.

Peace.

 

[Crackers Phinn]

Okay here goes:

First of all, Jesus existed from the very beginning like our Father existed in the beginning:

John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The Word is Jesus Christ.

In fact, he was the one who created the universe. (Genesis 1:1)

John 1:3 - All things were made by him and without him was not anything made that was made.

John 1:10 - He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

Colossians 1:14-16 - In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins; Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature. For by him were all things created that are in heaven and that are in earth....

Now, it says in quite a few scriptures that NO man has seen God the Father at anytime.

John 1:18 - No man hath seen God at any time.

John 6:46 (the words of Christ) - Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the father.

1 Timothy 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

So if NO man has seen the Father, then who were Moses, Joshua, Abraham and many others seeing and speaking with face-to-face?

Jesus Christ possibly!

The Lord says in Numbers 12:6-8 -- hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream. My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house. With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?

Read Genesis 32:24-30. Jacob wrestled with a man in verse 24. Later in the passage, Jacob asked for the man's name. The man then asks him "Why do you ask for my name" and the man blesses him. Then Jacob names the place Peniel bcause he saw God face-to-face and his life was spared.

The man Jacob wrestled could have been Jesus. Some may argue that the man was just a manifestation of God in the form of a man, NOT Jesus Christ.

Look at the next passage.

Joshua 5:13-15 -- And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries? And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my Lord unto his servant? And the captain of the LORD's host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.

Notice in this passage that this man, the captain of the host of the Lord, allowed Joshua to bow down and worship.

Contrast this to Acts 10:25-26 where Cornelius bowed down at Peter's feet to worship. Peter said "Stand up; I myself also am a man".

Also contrast the passage with Revelation 22:8-9 where John bowed down at an angel's feet to worship and the angel tells him not to do that. He tells him to worship God.

If this man that appeared to Joshua was just a manifestation of God in human form, then why did the manifestation call himself "The captain of the host of the Lord?"

Some food for thought.

I have read and reread what you wrote. I have also let a couple of hours go by before responding so that I could say what I have to say without being heated.

Here goes: You quote scripture that doesn't mention Jesus by name and then give commentary telling me your interpretation means that scripture is talking about Jesus.

You say that "The Word" = Jesus. I say "The Word" = God. I read it literally, you read it figuratively. Christ said he was the Son of God. Maybe my altzheimers is setting in but I don't recall him specifically saying that he was God, not even after the resurrection. I also believe in the Holy Trinity, which I admit is an interpretation as opposed to literal translation, but it appeals to my sense of logic.

It seems this becomes an issue of whose interpretation is the correct one.
If we worship the same God, why does it matter?

 

[Crackers Phinn]

Yes, but you have to ask yourself is God 'cool' with what you believe?

I'm not trying to start anything (JCoily ), but I'm just saying like Denim and Leather pointed out that the Holy Spirit bears witness to our Spirit about Christ and who He is.

No worries, it's all love up in here!

I do feel like I have a very strong connection with the Lord. I pray in Jesus Christs name, but I do not pray to Jesus. I don't want to misquote scripture (I don't believe I'm doing so) but Christ said that you come to the Father through him - not that he was the Father. The way I see it, my form of prayer is consistent with going through the son to reach the father.

ETA -rephrase the last sentence.

 

[Plenty]

No worries, it's all love up in here!

I do feel like I have a very strong connection with the Lord. I pray in Jesus Christs name, but I do not pray to Jesus. I don't want to misquote scripture (I don't believe I'm doing so) but Christ said that you come to the Father through him - not that he was the Father. The way I see it, I'm just doing what he said to do.

This is pretty much the same understanding I got. I never heard of people believing Jesus was God.

 

[Crackers Phinn]

This constant "Us vs. Them" mentality is disgusting and this thread was created to further that mentality. Shameful.

I completely agree.

 

[Crackers Phinn]

Your comment about Jesus not being mentioned in the Old Testament is incorrect. Please take the time to sit down and read the Old Testament. Jesus' coming is prophesied throughout the Old Testament.

Peace.

I went to a bonafide fire and brimstone baptist church 5 days a week from the time I was 5 until I was 18. I have read the Old Testament along with the New Testament backwards, forwards, sideways and upside down.

I know that if you read the Old Testament literally, Jesus is not mentioned. If you choose to interpret scripture, then you can say one of several unnamed 'people' or 'angels' could be him.

 

[michc]

This constant "Us vs. Them" mentality is disgusting and this thread was created to further that mentality. Shameful.

Sorry that it comes across as that, I personally don't intend for it to. It's good to discuss things, give opinions and share beliefs and sometimes things get a bit heated, but like JCoily said it's all love in here

 

[mkh_77]

I don't see anything shameful about this thread. Has this topic been discussed before? yes. But I don't see anyone trying to further a "mentality"--they're having a discussion and using Scripture to support. Nothing shameful about that.

I didn't post that this thread is shameful, but the mentality it perpetuates is. And, the initial post was not made to spark "discussion", it was made to show all of those who don't believe Jesus is God that they are wrong.

I was lurking in this forum last week, when I saw the thread “Can a person who doesn't believe Jesus is God be a Christian and not believe Jesus is God?" . . . The resounding answer is NO.

Discussion starter? I think not.

And on the matter of using verses to further a point, once again:

"Do not cling to me," said Jesus, "for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers, and tell them that I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God." John 20:17

I still believe that Jesus, in his human form, was a manifestation of God on Earth, but he was not God while he walked the Earth; he was just a man as evidenced by the verse above where he makes a distinction between himself and God.

So, yes, someone who doesn't believe that Jesus was God can be a Christian.

Jesus didn't say that he was going to ascend to himself and he made a distinction between himself and God.

Why can't we just agree to disagree without putting the other person down or trying to make them feel like less of a Christian/person?

 

[Bublnbrnsuga]

This constant "Us vs. Them" mentality is disgusting and this thread was created to further that mentality. Shameful.

Just because people are expressing the Truth doesn't mean it's US vs THEM. I really don't get it- maybe I could see what you are saying if people were being mean and hateful,but that's not the case at ALL.
Do you say this whenever someone tries to steer someone else in the right direction? Do you comment like this in other forums here when one person doesn't agree with the other? If no, why not?

 

[BlkHoneyLuv2U]

I have read and reread what you wrote. I have also let a couple of hours go by before responding so that I could say what I have to say without being heated.

Here goes: You quote scripture that doesn't mention Jesus by name and then give commentary telling me your interpretation means that scripture is talking about Jesus.

You say that "The Word" = Jesus. I say "The Word" = God. I read it literally, you read it figuratively. Christ said he was the Son of God. Maybe my altzheimers is setting in but I don't recall him specifically saying that he was God, not even after the resurrection. I also believe in the Holy Trinity, which I admit is an interpretation as opposed to literal translation, but it appeals to my sense of logic.

It seems this becomes an issue of whose interpretation is the correct one.
If we worship the same God, why does it matter?

In that same chapter, if you read a bit further, the scripture says "And the word became flesh and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the father) full of grace and truth" Me personally know what I know and it took the grace of God to reveal who Jesus was to me. Every one will know when it is their time to know. Before that time, it is fruitless to debate who Jesus is to those that havent received revelation.

 

[mkh_77]

Just because people are expressing the Truth doesn't mean it's US vs THEM. I really don't get it- maybe I could see what you are saying if people were being mean and hateful,but that's not the case at ALL.
Do you say this whenever someone tries to steer someone else in the right direction? Do you comment like this in other forums here when one person doesn't agree with the other? If no, why not?

It's THEIR truth/interpretation, and that's what I have a problem with. Since when do certain people get to decide if I am a Christian or not based on what they believe? That does not sit well with me now, and it won't in the future. The whole point of accepting Jesus as your PERSONAL Lord and Savior is that you don't have to prove anything to anyone else because Jesus knows your heart and you are in direct communication with Him whenever you choose or whenever He chooses.

There is a very clear and present "Us vs. Them" mentality in this particular forum. I've witnessed it time and time again. And, it seems to me that some posts are written in a mean way, yet cloaked in "Christian love". Others have agreed with me, but even if they didn't, I would still stand by this claim. Prime example:

Me personally know what I know and it took the grace of God to reveal who Jesus was to me. Every one will know when it is their time to know. Before that time, it is fruitless to debate who Jesus is to those that havent received revelation.

Why write this? Is that REALLY necessary? The only point in posting something like this is to make that receiver feel LESS of what they claim to be because you have/know something you think they don't have/know. THIS is the mentality I am writing about. This is what is shameful to me. This is what I think is disgusting. This is what God teaches AGAINST! Why create so much separation?!

The few times I've posted where there was a disagreement, I've relied on facts to bolster whatever my stance may have been, just like I've done in this particular thread with the verse I provided.

In the thread regarding a minister having a $2K watch I posted my experiences, observations, and published articles to support my feelings about Creflo Dollar, but not once did I say that those who choose to follow him are wrong. I just said I think the man is a crook and gave support as to why. Their truth in regards to this particular minister are simply not my truths, but I am not going to say that they aren't Christians because they believe and support a prosperity ministry whereas I don't.

 

[Crackers Phinn]

Just because people are expressing the Truth doesn't mean it's US vs THEM. I really don't get it- maybe I could see what you are saying if people were being mean and hateful,but that's not the case at ALL.
Do you say this whenever someone tries to steer someone else in the right direction? Do you comment like this in other forums here when one person doesn't agree with the other? If no, why not?

I know this wasn't addressed to me but I thought I would take a shot at answering.

The reason that this thread can (is) construed as Us vs Them is that the OP comes straight out and says 'If you don't believe what her interpretation of the bible is then you're not a Christian."

That is not the truth. That is not steering anyone in the right direction. That is highly presumptuous and prideful.

To tell the truth, I find it highly disturbing that people who feel they are Christians would support someone telling people that they are not. What happens, if you disagree with some other point that Denim and Leather makes and she says YOU aren't a Christian for having a different interpretation than she - is she still correct?

I'm just saying.....

 

[Crackers Phinn]

In that same chapter, if you read a bit further, the scripture says "And the word became flesh and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the father) full of grace and truth" Me personally know what I know and it took the grace of God to reveal who Jesus was to me. Every one will know when it is their time to know. Before that time, it is fruitless to debate who Jesus is to those that havent received revelation.

It's amazing what I find out about myself.

1. I'm not a Christian because I don't interpret the bible as people who did not write the bible say I should.

2. I haven't received revelation because Ladydee 'knows what she knows'.

This concludes my visit to the Christian forum.