Romans 2 and Non-Christians in Heaven

[divya]

This is a challenging subject that likely may have come up here before. However, it is an interesting one...

Romans 2:12-16

12For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another );

16In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.


How do you understand these verses?

I understand them to mean that there are people who may not have professed Christianity on earth that will be justified and therefore in heaven. The Scriptures do tell us to believe on Jesus Christ, and we will receive salvation. As the Holy Spirit speaks to our consciences, there are those whose exposure to Jesus Christ may largely come in this manner. Our exposure to the Truth and the Light may differ when we walk on this earth, but if we believe in whatever Light we are given then we will receive the gift of salvation.

This is the message that I personally glean from Romans 2.


Along similar lines, Luke 12:46-48 speaks about judgment.

Luke 12:46 -48

46The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

47And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

48But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

We serve a just God!

 

[HeChangedMyName]

I have always thought it was speaking of the people who exhibited Christ-like character before he came and was witnesses as the saviour. I might be wrong. I'm interested to see what others have to say about it.

 

[divya]

I have always thought it was speaking of the people who exhibited Christ-like character before he came and was witnesses as the saviour. I might be wrong. I'm interested to see what others have to say about it.

Interesting...a declaration regarding those before Christ's first coming. Thanks for sharing. I also look forward to the understanding that others have of this chapter.

 

[blazingthru]

like slavery, as slaves tried to be righteous with the limited knowledge they had of God will be deem worthy of fellowshipping with the father. God is the great I am. He even provides for those who know him not but try to live a sin free life as much as possible believing someday it will all work out for their good.

 

[Crown]

Subscribing!
Maybe I will post later.

 

[Prudent1]

I have always thought it was speaking of the people who exhibited Christ-like character before he came and was witnesses as the saviour. I might be wrong. I'm interested to see what others have to say about it.

That's how I understood these passage too. I also took it to mean ppl who have never heard the name Jesus. Like those in remote places. Because no matter where you are the 10 commandments are in effect. You can't just run up in someone's hut and steal something. You can't just go to a remote island and kill ppl w/o some form of retribution. No matter where ppl are God places enough of himself on the inside to give all the basic blue prints of right and wrong. Now what you do with it supress, deny, argue, accept, whatever is up to you. Like you said I could be wrong and am always willing to learn.

 

[momi]

Just to add my two cents - I do not think this passage is speaking about "salvation", but our works which will be tried by fire at the final judgement. Advising that God takes account of what we know to do - but do not do... and what we do because it is ingrained into our being by God Himself. Even those who have not read The Bible have an inner witness that testifies about God - so we are all without excuse. So the Gentiles, who had not previously been exposed to "The Law" - obeyed the law given to them by the Holy Ghost...

Looking forward to more responses.

 

[Crown]

When I try to share this view with other Christians, they give me the look : weird ! How someone so logical can turn crazy about a so simple thing.

Anyway, I have this same interrogation. And, I am trying my best to explain it. Please, if you(general) think that I am crazy, please just give me the look, as I can’t see you. But, like Divya, I would like to know what you think about this, ladies.

Point 1: organization
We, human, know how to organize our community, so God. Where there are kings, there are kingdoms (or cities) with people, not just kings.
Lu. 19.15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
19.17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
19.19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.

Point 2 : nature
If the true believers will be the same nature as Christ, and God all in all…
1Cor. 15.52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 15.53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
2The. 1.10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
Phi. 3.21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
1Cor. 15.28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

…Why a need for healing ?
Ap. 22.2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
Ez. 47.12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.

Point 3 : evidence of more than 1 category
The group of elected or very elect :
Mat. 22.14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
Eph. 1.4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 1.5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will…
1The. 1.4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
The nations :
Zac. 14.9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one. 14.16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. 14.17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
14.18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. 14.19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Ap. 2.26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: 2.27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
21.24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. 21.25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. 21.26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

I could say more, but it’s enough to understand my point of view.


Warning : I don't know one Christian who shares this point of view. So, it's not doctrinal, take it just as a personal interrogation.

 

[divya]

Will be back soon ladies. Finish up an assignment...

 

[divya]

like slavery, as slaves tried to be righteous with the limited knowledge they had of God will be deem worthy of fellowshipping with the father. God is the great I am. He even provides for those who know him not but try to live a sin free life as much as possible believing someday it will all work out for their good.

Well said. I truly do believe this. There are so many people in this world, born into and living many different situations. He will reward those who strive to live right.

 

[divya]

That's how I understood these passage too. I also took it to mean ppl who have never heard the name Jesus. Like those in remote places. Because no matter where you are the 10 commandments are in effect. You can't just run up in someone's hut and steal something. You can't just go to a remote island and kill ppl w/o some form of retribution. No matter where ppl are God places enough of himself on the inside to give all the basic blue prints of right and wrong. Now what you do with it supress, deny, argue, accept, whatever is up to you. Like you said I could be wrong and am always willing to learn.

Amen! This is very true. We are made in His image, with the ability to think and reason. We tend to naturally understand basic issues of right and wrong.

 

[divya]

Just to add my two cents - I do not think this passage is speaking about "salvation", but our works which will be tried by fire at the final judgement. Advising that God takes account of what we know to do - but do not do... and what we do because it is ingrained into our being by God Himself. Even those who have not read The Bible have an inner witness that testifies about God - so we are all without excuse. So the Gentiles, who had not previously been exposed to "The Law" - obeyed the law given to them by the Holy Ghost...

Looking forward to more responses.

Agree with the bold. It reminds of another verse in Romans:

Romans 1:20 - For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

So my question is, for those who do not know of God but obey through listening to the Holy Ghost - does that not deal with salvation? Does that mean that have accepted the little about Jesus that they know?

 

[divya]

When I try to share this view with other Christians, they give me the look : weird ! How someone so logical can turn crazy about a so simple thing.

Anyway, I have this same interrogation. And, I am trying my best to explain it. Please, if you(general) think that I am crazy, please just give me the look, as I can’t see you. But, like Divya, I would like to know what you think about this, ladies.

Point 1: organization
We, human, know how to organize our community, so God. Where there are kings, there are kingdoms (or cities) with people, not just kings.
Lu. 19.15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
19.17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
19.19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.

Point 2 : nature
If the true believers will be the same nature as Christ, and God all in all…
1Cor. 15.52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 15.53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
2The. 1.10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
Phi. 3.21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
1Cor. 15.28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

…Why a need for healing ?
Ap. 22.2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
Ez. 47.12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.

Point 3 : evidence of more than 1 category
The group of elected or very elect :
Mat. 22.14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
Eph. 1.4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 1.5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will…
1The. 1.4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
The nations :
Zac. 14.9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one. 14.16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. 14.17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
14.18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. 14.19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Ap. 2.26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: 2.27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
21.24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. 21.25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. 21.26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

I could say more, but it’s enough to understand my point of view.


Warning : I don't know one Christian who shares this point of view. So, it's not doctrinal, take it just as a personal interrogation.

This is extremely perceptive. Let me make sure that I understand. You have come to a similar conclusion from these verses then?

And it definitely doesn’t have to be doctrinal, because we all learn as we study. Regarding Point 2, that fact that we will all be changed shows that all of us who truly believed will be given immortality and according to Point 3, we will come out of numerous nations. As all the nations of the past went to Jerusalem to worship the King, so it seems the saved will come from all the nations into the New Jerusalem to worship God.

Am I on the right track? What more have you drawn from these verses?

 

[Crown]

This is extremely perceptive. Let me make sure that I understand. You have come to a similar conclusion from these verses then?
Yours, these and others.

And it definitely doesn’t have to be doctrinal, because we all learn as we study.
It’s not doctrinal for me, because I am still studying. It’s not like what’s your belief about Jesus-Christ, or salvation, atonement for sin…

Regarding Point 2, that fact that we will all be changed shows that all of us who truly believed will be given immortality
Rev. 22:2 and Ez. 47:12 give details on what’s going on after the judgement, so my question remains : why the need of healing in the new, if we will all have immortality and a body like Christ ? Do we really understand this -all- ?

and according to Point 3, we will come out of numerous nations. As all the nations of the past went to Jerusalem to worship the King, so it seems the saved will come from all the nations into the New Jerusalem to worship God.
No, besides the priests and the servants in the city (the new Jerusalem), there is evidence of more than one category : kings and nations. The kings will rule over the nations, power will be given to them over the nations (Zac. 14:9-19 ; Rev. 2:26).

Am I on the right track? What more have you drawn from these verses?

And others. I could add the two joint characters of God (righteousness and mercy), the thrones, the judgement, the evidence of two fights, the books in Rev. 20:12… But I think it’s better to let it as is. Enough is said if someone wants to study the subject.

 

[GETHEALTHY]

This translation makes it a little more plan. I didn't understand it either until I looked at other translatons.

Romans 2:12-16 (New Living Translation)


12 When the Gentiles sin, they will be destroyed, even though they never had God’s written law. And the Jews, who do have God’s law, will be judged by that law when they fail to obey it. 13 For merely listening to the law doesn’t make us right with God. It is obeying the law that makes us right in his sight. 14 Even Gentiles, who do not have God’s written law, show that they know his law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it. 15 They demonstrate that God’s law is written in their hearts, for their own conscience and thoughts either accuse them or tell them they are doing right. 16 And this is the message I proclaim—that the day is coming when God, through Christ Jesus, will judge everyone’s secret life.


Romans 2:12-16 (Amplified Bible)


12All who have sinned without the Law will also perish without [regard to] the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged and condemned by the Law.
13For it is not merely hearing the Law [read] that makes one righteous before God, but it is the doers of the Law who will be held guiltless and acquitted and justified.
14When Gentiles who have not the [divine] Law do instinctively what the Law requires, they are a law to themselves, since they do not have the Law.
15They show that the essential requirements of the Law are written in their hearts and are operating there, with which their consciences (sense of right and wrong) also bear witness; and their [moral] [a]decisions (their arguments of reason, their condemning or approving [b]thoughts) will accuse or perhaps defend and excuse [them] 16On that day when, as my Gospel proclaims, God by Jesus Christ will judge men in regard to [c]the things which they conceal (their hidden thoughts).(A)


I hope this helps