Just had an epiphany: lye vs. no lye ,protein vs. ceramides

[delp]

I hope I could give some sort of insight on this...

Sounds good. Now my only question:
ceramide alone or ceramide w/wheat or light protein. Lye need protein but no lye user need protein and moisture. So, I am thinking the latter.

 

[newflowers]

I hope I could give some sort of insight on this...

Quote:
Originally Posted by newflowers
And finally, at what point in the hair care (and especially relaxer) process would one use the ceramide product? Is it relax, rinse, neutralize, detox/chelate, ceramide, reconstruct, condition?Some other order?
If it were me, I would use a product after rinsing the relaxer and before neutralizing, and then again during deep conditioning (similar to Pixel Lady's regimen). And then perhaps during styling or post-styling (daily moisturizer). Again, overkill is not a good look .

Thanks - that did help quite a bit. I am still in the research phase, but I am certainly going to try it. I do have Keraphix to use before and after relaxing.

I spent some time last night reading about the Joico K-Pak Reconstructor, Keratase Forcintense, and Redken Deep Fuel. All are billed to be intensive treatments because of the ceramides and the proteins.

I have another question -

When using any of these products during the relaxing process (after rinsing and after neutralizing for instance), will I still end of with my nice straight Phyto hair, or will the addition of extra protein make my hair hold a bit of curl/wave (like not complete the process or prevent the process from completing itself)? I'm really not adverse to a smidge of wave, but I am not certain how adding these products will change the process.

As you can see, I'm still working to synthesize my new knowledge about the protein/treatment phase before, during, and after relaxer.

 

[delp]

http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/4266/types.html
http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/4266/hair.html

(repost from previous post/from a fellow member) Talks alot about lipids.

 

[tnorenberg]

Ok, I did a product check. My Loreal Nutri Vive Shampoo & CO have ceramides and also La Bomba Conditioning Treatment. So we have at least 1 Dominican product that's ahead of the curve.

 

[Artemis]

Thanks - that did help quite a bit. I am still in the research phase, but I am certainly going to try it. I do have Keraphix to use before and after relaxing.

I spent some time last night reading about the Joico K-Pak Reconstructor, Keratase Forcintense, and Redken Deep Fuel. All are billed to be intensive treatments because of the ceramides and the proteins.

I have another question -

When using any of these products during the relaxing process (after rinsing and after neutralizing for instance), will I still end of with my nice straight Phyto hair, or will the addition of extra protein make my hair hold a bit of curl/wave (like not complete the process or prevent the process from completing itself)? I'm really not adverse to a smidge of wave, but I am not certain how adding these products will change the process.

As you can see, I'm still working to synthesize my new knowledge about the protein/treatment phase before, during, and after relaxer.

Yes, you should still have straight hair.

http://www.hair-science.com/_int/_en/topic/topic_sousrub.aspx?tc=ROOT-HAIR-SCIENCE^INFINITE-TRANSFORMATIONS^PLAYING-SHAPES&cur=PLAYING-SHAPES

Ahem...ok, let me see if I can explain this the way the real experts do...There are a few types of bonds that make up the hair strand. The bonds that are broken (I think are called "disulfide bonds") to curl or straighten the hair (depending on the chemical process that's chosen) are not the ones that ceramides work with. Ceramides and keratin proteins are there to maintain whatever structure the hair has taken after the chemical change occured, so "reversion" is not the protein's fault. You are just replacing what was lost in the chemical reaction. Sistaslick mentions this in some of her old threads (esp. the Breakage 101 thread) so feel free to search for more info.

Also, now that I think about it, I personally would more likely than not use the ceramides post relaxer (perhaps in a DC) and use silk proteins prior to and during the relaxer process, being that silk protein is stronger (check out Navsegda's thread on preventing relaxer damage using silk protein). It is my understanding ceramides pretty much benefit the cuticle, where as hydrolyzed keratin proteins and silk proteins actually penetrate the shaft...JMO

 

[Creatividual]

biolage is great for ceramide technology. i used to use their fortifying conditioner and my hair always felt healthy, soft, and I had virtually no breakage.

 

[newflowers]

Yes, you should still have straight hair.

http://www.hair-science.com/_int/_en/topic/topic_sousrub.aspx?tc=ROOT-HAIR-SCIENCE^INFINITE-TRANSFORMATIONS^PLAYING-SHAPES&cur=PLAYING-SHAPES

Ahem...ok, let me see if I can explain this the way the real experts do...There are a few types of bonds that make up the hair strand. The bonds that are broken (I think are called "disulfide bonds") to curl or straighten the hair (depending on the chemical process that's chosen) are not the ones that ceramides work with. Ceramides and keratin proteins are there to maintain whatever structure the hair has taken after the chemical change occured, so "reversion" is not the protein's fault. You are just replacing what was lost in the chemical reaction. Sistaslick mentions this in some of her old threads (esp. the Breakage 101 thread) so feel free to search for more info.

Also, now that I think about it, I personally would more likely than not use the ceramides post relaxer (perhaps in a DC) and use silk proteins prior to and during the relaxer process, being that silk protein is stronger (check out Navsegda's thread on preventing relaxer damage using silk protein). It is my understanding ceramides pretty much benefit the cuticle, where as hydrolyzed keratin proteins and silk proteins actually penetrate the shaft...JMO

Wow - I think I get it. The proteins added after the relaxer will not revert the hair; it will simply strengthen and replensih the amino acids/proteins lost during the relaxer process. I have Sistaslick and Nav printed and in my hair notebook - it's becoming the hair bible. I do have silk amino acids and silk peptide powder as well as hydrolyzed wheat and marine collagen. I was thinking it would be good to add a bit of each to the avc after rinsing the relaxer from my hair, but before using the neutralizing shampoo.

So let's see - apply silk before, apply relaxer, smooth, rinse, acv with proteins,rinse, neutralize, rinse, ceramids first then reconstructor, wait, rinse, leave-in, roller set, dry, and tada beautiful, strong hair (hopefully).

I must have dry hair, so do you think applying the silk amino acids the day before maybe? What do you think about using a chelating or detoxing shampoo after the neutralizing step? As you so wisely pointed out - there is a such thing as overkill, but... what about adding another smidge of silk protein to the conditioning phase? And lastly, in one of the links you sent, there was mention of using an acidifying conditioner at the very end to make sure that all cuticles are tightly closed - this is something like Porosity Control or Nexxus Ensure, right? Is the acidfying conditioner used after the reconstructor - like the final last step?

OMG - I am going to have the best hair in the world thanks to all of the ladies here. Artemis - thanks for your patience in helping me understand this.

Come on July!

 

[newflowers]

Delp- you are a wonder- thanks bunches for those links - super informative.

Vivacious - do you use the at home biolage ceramide treatment- the one that comes in the little tube? Or are you using the Pro4?

 

[Artemis]

Whew!!! Girl, you are killing me I honestly didn't think I had acquired any knowledge from all the hours I log on this board, but now you have proved that it is so...I'm glad all those late nights and time spent dawdling in my office didn't go to waste

Ok...to address your post:

Wow - I think I get it. The proteins added after the relaxer will not revert the hair; it will simply strengthen and replensih the amino acids/proteins lost during the relaxer process. I have Sistaslick and Nav printed and in my hair notebook - it's becoming the hair bible. I do have silk amino acids and silk peptide powder as well as hydrolyzed wheat and marine collagen. I was thinking it would be good to add a bit of each to the avc after rinsing the relaxer from my hair, but before using the neutralizing shampoo.

So let's see - apply silk before, apply relaxer, smooth, rinse, acv with proteins,rinse, neutralize, rinse, ceramides first then reconstructor, wait, rinse, leave-in, roller set, dry, and tada beautiful, strong hair (hopefully).
I guess you could do this, but I'd PM Sistaslick just to make sure; that's what I do

However, since you use no-lye, and I don't, I was thinking more like:
Silk protein/base, relaxer, smooth, rinse, PC+silk(like Motions), rinse, neutralize, rinse, ceramides (keraphix)+DC, wait, rinse, leave-in+ceramides(like Heat Protexx), rollerset, dry, and tada (Once it's time for rinsing out relaxer, all I think a/b is getting that pH down, the conditioning, etc, comes later.)

(BTW: What does the ACV do for you? Does it work like PC?)

I must have dry hair, so do you think applying the silk amino acids the day before maybe? What do you think about using a chelating or detoxing shampoo after the neutralizing step? As you so wisely pointed out - there is a such thing as overkill, but... what about adding another smidge of silk protein to the conditioning phase? And lastly, in one of the links you sent, there was mention of using an acidifying conditioner at the very end to make sure that all cuticles are tightly closed - this is something like Porosity Control or Nexxus Ensure, right? Is the acidfying conditioner used after the reconstructor - like the final last step?
I apply my silk protein (CHI Silk Infusion) just before applying the relaxer--it is apart of my pre touch-up ritual. I get good results from this, and have not tried it your way, so I cannot answer that question.

Neutralizing shampoos detox the hair already, so an additional chelating 'poo IMO is OVERKILL. Esp. if you're already lathering up 2+ times w/the neutr. 'poo.

Regarding the PC--Yes, that's a great idea. I use it either with the conditioner before I neutralize or before the DC after neutralize. Try either way and see how it works.

OMG - I am going to have the best hair in the world thanks to all of the ladies here. Artemis - thanks for your patience in helping me understand this. You are very welcome! Glad I could help.

Come on July!

 

[Artemis]

Sounds good. Now my only question:
ceramide alone or ceramide w/wheat or light protein. Lye need protein but no lye user need protein and moisture. So, I am thinking the latter.

I agree w/the latter also. Wheat/light proteins encourage moisture while giving strength, so it's a win-win combo .

 

[newflowers]

Artemia - I think you shuld take the A+ for your LHCF grade. I am so sitting in the student seat right now.

I will PM Sistaslick and ask about the order.

The acv rinse is designed to lower the pH and make the neutralizing step easier. With Phyto, it can take many,many, many washes to get to the white suds. Arcadian uses Phyto too and she explained to me that with the avc rinse (10 parts water: one part avc), she gets to white suds within a couple of washes. I am looking forward to that. I thought about adding the proteins to the acv based upon this and another thread. I really like the idea of adding a strengthening step at several points.

Okay, so I will need to go to the store again. I am going to get the Redken Deep Fuel and the Porosity Control - two more tiny little items to add to my list.

Once again - Artemis, you have helped me tremendously, and I thank you very much.

 

[SvelteVelvet]

Ok, I did a product check. My Loreal Nutri Vive Shampoo & CO have ceramides and also La Bomba Conditioning Treatment. So we have at least 1 Dominican product that's ahead of the curve.

Don't forget Silicon Mix!!

 

[sareca]

There are also plant-derived ceramides. They can be found in walnut oil and wheat germ oil. I'm sure there are others. These are just the two I know about.

 

[Artemis]

Oh, and also "glycolipids". That's what is listed on my Joico products.

 

[JazzyDez]

First of all, I love you guys!!!!!! Thanks for all your research and for sharing the info. This is good stuff

I switched from no-lye to lye after reading shamboosie's book and also started using humectress and keraphix on a regular basis and let me tell you my hair has never been better and it hasn't been this long since before I started relaxing it in elementary school (it used to be real long).

Yep, ceramides are the bomb...they are the reason I mainly use Mizani and Redken.

When I t-up, after I rinse but before I neutralize I use UV Rescue Treat for 10mins...AMAZING results.

Add some keratin oil to the relaxer and be prepared to be DOUBLE AMAZED!!

My hair is not long compared to the diva standards here, but I will say when it comes to healthy...its right up there with the BIG DOGS!!

Okay, I justs used my one bragging pass...

Okay I quoted you because I never heard of keratin oil?!? added to relaxer??? off to do some research

 

[mommatide]

i just recently heard of ceramides when i visited a salon here in orlando. i went to give it and the stylist a look over,(she will be doing my next relaxer). anywho, she suggested that i use redkin anti-snap because it contains ceramides. i had no idea what that was at the time, but after reading this thread, that tells me she knows her stuff. she really likes affirm fiberguard no-lye and said she would use it on my hair this friday. so there is the connection with ceramides and no-lye

 

[jade998]

Needed to bump this...

I am having dryness issuse after texlaxing with ORS no Lye.
I am new to this and some of this info has gone over my head

Could some one give me a sample regime of what they think someone with a No Lye relaxer should be using with all this ceramide technology.

What do I clarify with and how often?
What do I pre poo with?
What do I shampoo with?
What do I DC with?
What do I use as a leave in?
Do I seal with Oil?
What lotion do I use/ what do I put after DC to my hair?
How do I maintain it on a daily basis?

I am soo scared to have my hair out, incase it breaks. It is doing well, but only because I am on the HYH challenge, however I am determined to enjoy my hair form next year onwards. I don't want to be afraid of touching my hair and I don't want my hair looking jacked up duer to not using the right products.

Thanks

 

[Ladylynn]

This is a great thread! To make sure I understand this correctly, I can use ceramides with a lye relaxer as well as reap great benefits. I switched from lye to no-lye about a year ago due to underprocessing. I have my underprocessing under control but now I am experiencing dry hair and very dry ends. I am going to try ORS lye relaxer next, but I still would like to use ceramides just to make sure my hair will have a proper moisture/protein balance.

 

[RabiaElaine]

Octyldodecanol is in Loreal Vive Pro Nutri Gloss Conditioner...is this the same as Ceramide 3? If it is that's great because I just bought some.

Also does anyone know if you can conditioner wash daily with a ceramide conditioner without any problems??

This information is great and makes sooooooo much sense. I read the Shamboosie book a few years ago and switched to using primarily Nexxus products. My hair really thrived and was thick and growing. I was using a nexxus shampoo (I can't remember which), Nexxus Humectress/Humectic (I'm using currently only because I got 2 big bottles at the BSS for $30), and Keraphix. My hair was really strong and thick.

 

[tapioca_pudding]

Bumping this up with a question:

Nexxus Phyto Organics Enphuse is the equivalent of Keraphix. So would this still be considered a Ceramide conditioner?

Also, since Im using a Lye conditioner, is there still the need to clarify/chelate during the rinsing process? Or is this necessary for NoLye users only?

Thanks so much!! Please yall.. I relax next week!!

 

[Artemis]

Bumping this up with a question:

Nexxus Phyto Organics Enphuse is the equivalent of Keraphix. So would this still be considered a Ceramide conditioner?

Also, since Im using a Lye conditioner, is there still the need to clarify/chelate during the rinsing process? Or is this necessary for NoLye users only?

Thanks so much!! Please yall.. I relax next week!!

Just came back from the Nexxus site to answer your question

KerapHix

restorative protein crème reconstructor

Dry, brittle, over-relaxed, and completely wrecked hair can’t help but soften up when faced with KERApHix’s restorative and nurturing ingredients. It may be ultra gentle to your hair but it’s unrelentingly tough on damage.

ingredients:
Water (Aqua), Stearalkonium Chloride, Glycerin, Cetyl Alcohol, Cetearyl Alcohol, Mineral Oil, Keratin Amino Acids, Matricaria (Chamomilla Recutita) Extract, Hydrolyzed Collagen, Wheat Flour (Triticum Vulgare) Lipids, Tetrahexyldecyl Ascorbate, Alpha-glucan Oligosaccharide, Panthenol, Tocopheryl Acetate, Magnesium Citrate, Manganese Citrate, Avocado (Persea Gratissima) Oil, Safflower (Carthamus Tinctorius) Oil, Soybean (Glycine Soja) Sterol, Ceramide 3, Butyl Methoxydibenzoylmethane, Ethylhexyl Methoxycinnamate, Myristic Acid, Palmitic Acid, Stearic Acid, Polysorbate 60, Sodium Chloride, Polyglyceryl-3 Distearate, Guar Hydroxypropyltrimonium Chloride, Petrolatum, Disodium Edta, Dmdm Hydantoin, Iodopropynyl Butylcarbamate, Dna, Rna, Polyquaternium-10, Zinc Chloride, Citric Acid, Propylene Glycol, Methylparaben, Fragrance (Parfum).

Enphuse

intensive reconstructor

The ultimate reconstruction tool. This advanced hair therapy treatment adds softness, elasticity, and shine to even the most severely damaged hair.

ingredients:
Water (Aqua), Behentrimonium Chloride, Cetearyl Alcohol, Cyclomethicone, Trimethylsilylamodimethicone, Hydrolyzed Quinoa (Chenopodium Quinoa) Protein, Burdock (Arctium Lappa) Extract, Blessed Thistle (Carbenia Benedicta) Extract, Alfalfa (Medicago Sativa) Extract, Cohune Seed (Orbignya Cohune) Oil Extract, Cohune (Orbignya Cohune) Seed Oil, Panthenol, Aromatherapy Fragrance (Parfum) with Essential Oils of: Vanilla Planifolia Fruit, Fennel (Foeniculum Vulgare), Mimosa Tenuiflora; Glycerin, Guar Hydroxypropyltrimonium Chloride, Behentrimonium Methosulfate, Octyldodecyl Ricinoleate, Polyquaternium-37, C11-C15 Pareth-7, Laureth-9, Trideceth-12, PEG-150 Distearate, PPG-1 Trideceth-6, Propylene Glycol Dicaprylate/Dicaprate, Dimethiconol Stearate, Cetearyl Alcohol, Citric Acid, Tetrasodium EDTA, Phenoxyethanol, Methylparaben, Propylparaben, Propylene Glycol



Enphuse doesn't contain ceramides, but that doesn't mean it's not a fabulous reconstructor! I think you should still use it. Heck, use it as your mid-relaxer protein step. I bet your hair will feel awesome.

Also, from what I have read, some no-lye ladies have chelated, but do so that first wash after the touch up...you may want to seek Sistaslick's expertise on that one, as I am just wrapping my brain around the concept that no-lye doesn't have to damage your hair *flashing back to my childhood *

 

[tapioca_pudding]

Artemis - Thank you SO SO SO SO much!!!!!!! I havent used this Enphuse yet but Im very excited about it. Im def. gonna go ahead and use it as my mid-relaxer protein and see what I get.

Thank you for this thread and all the info you contributed!!

 

[Artemis]

Artemis - Thank you SO SO SO SO much!!!!!!! I havent used this Enphuse yet but Im very excited about it. Im def. gonna go ahead and use it as my mid-relaxer protein and see what I get.

Thank you for this thread and all the info you contributed!!

Aww You're very welcome

 

[Artemis]

Ok, I just re-read this thread and since then I've learned a lot a/b no-lye relaxers (thanks to Sistaslick's lovely articles).

For those that use no-lye relaxers and want to incorporate ceramides into your regimen, please keep in mind that ceramides are meant for more cuticle-binding purposes in regards to the hair shaft. The wash day after the relaxer is the perfect time to incorporate the ceramide-containing products into your regimen, considering using a chelating 'poo that day will rid your hair of most, if not all the deposits, and leave your hair with a clean slate and prepping it for the ultimate conditioning experience. (Now, this isn't to say that you cannot use a ceramide product on wash day!) Proteins and moisturizers are still necessary to help support the integrity of the hair post-relaxer (esp. hydrolyzed silk and wheat proteins that actually enter the shaft), but you can totally think of ceramides as a bonus ingredient to help nourish the strand after such an invasive process. Furthermore, using ceramide products throughout the relaxer cycle (those weeks between relaxer sessions) can help fortify the strands so that less damage will occur on the next touch up day

Lye users can still benefit from the strengthening properties of this ingredient as well, but I wanted to post this for no-lye users as calcium deposits/dryness, etc can be a concern for no-lye users.

Hope this made some sort of sense If not, I know someone will come in here and tell me a/b myself! J/k

 

[Soliel185]

This makes sense to me. I relaxed using ORS no-lye and I understood from previous experience that I would need protien to keep my hair strong. But I found that every "strengthening" shampoo and conditioner or protien treatment left my hair extremely dry and tangled, but no matter how many times I used moisturizing agents my hair never got "mushy" or over moisturized. I would still have problems with breakage, but it was mostly minor. Ceremides seems like they'd fit right in the middle between the moisture my hair loves, and the protien it needs.

 

[Artemis]

This makes sense to me. I relaxed using ORS no-lye and I understood from previous experience that I would need protien to keep my hair strong. But I found that every "strengthening" shampoo and conditioner or protien treatment left my hair extremely dry and tangled, but no matter how many times I used moisturizing agents my hair never got "mushy" or over moisturized. I would still have problems with breakage, but it was mostly minor. Ceremides seems like they'd fit right in the middle between the moisture my hair loves, and the protien it needs.

You should also try a chelating shampoo That would help the protein and moisture "stick"

 

[SpiritJunkie]

Artemis & Delp or anyone else who is an expert: You are soo full of great information! I really needed this thread.

I just bought Affirm Fibreguard :

1. firbeguard preservo strengthing serum
2. fibreguard relaxer
3. Affirm 5 n 1 reconstructor
4. firberguard normalizing shampoo

I didn't buy the Fibreguard Sustenance (step 3) for no lye process because it was double the price and I spent so much already. So I bought the Affirm lye relaxer step 3.

Will i still receive the same benefit? Should i bite the bullet and get Sustenance?

your advice would be greatly appreciated!!!!!

thanks..

 

[Neroli]

Wow, I don't know how I missed this thread. Excellent information all the way around and yet another confirmation for me on why nexxus classic line remains my hair's beloved. Therappe, humectress, keraphix, headdress all contain ceramide 3! I've tried nexxus new stuff, but my hair no likey and I RAN back to my old loves.

This makes soooo much sense. I was a nexxus girl before coming to the hair boards, when I was ignorant about hair care in general and basically abused my hair, these products ALWAYS made my hair feel good.

 

[Artemis]

Hey Sweetg! Thanks for the heads up You're so sweet to give such a nice compliment. I feel like I am still learning from the real experts in here (like Pixel Lady and Sistaslick!! Those are the real brains of the operation )

Anywho:

I just came from the Avlon site, and it seems to me like they are very similar products (I have never used Affirm before) so you should be fine. Be sure to watch for any changes throughout the week, although I don't anticipate there will be any. Both products are considered to be mid-relaxer protein steps which are helpful to the hair regardless if you use no-lye or lye relaxers.

You will be deep conditioning after using the neutralizing shampoo as well, correct? For extra pliability if you have a deep conditioner w/ceramides laying around, that would be the time to use it. If you do experience any dryness issues after relaxer day, then just use a chelating shampoo on the next wash day.

HTH

Artemis: You are soo full of great information! I really needed this thread.

I just bought Affirm Fibreguard :

1. firbeguard preservo strengthing serum
2. fibreguard relaxer
3. Affirm 5 n 1 reconstructor
4. firberguard normalizing shampoo

I didn't buy the Fibreguard Sustenance (step 3) for no lye process because it was double the price and I spent so much already. So I bought the Affirm lye relaxer step 3.

Will i still receive the same benefit? Should i bite the bullet and get Sustenance?

your advice would be greatly appreciated!!!!!

thanks..

 

[SpiritJunkie]

thanks so much for responding!! i'm learning so so much on the science of our hair.

I have alot of conditioners dom and otherwise so one of them must have cermides in it.


thanks again!!!