Is hair type due to race or genetics?

[Neith]

YES. its was a GRADUAL change of course that happened within 1000s of yrs.
Thats why i said, if africans/blacks keep reproducing interracially, kinky hair will go extinct in thousands of yrs to come.

So there you go. From kinky textured hair and darker skin types to looser textures and lighter skin without any direct racial mixing. That was my only point. There were/are some black people with the genes for curly hair naturally.

ETA: Straight hair is undeniably a recessive trait in humans.

http://www.blinn.edu/socialscience/LDThomas/Feldman/Handouts/0203hand.htm

If you can find any credible online source that says that straight hair is a dominant trait, I'd be surprised, lol.

 

[whitedaisez]

So there you go. From kinky textured hair and darker skin types to looser textures and lighter skin without any direct racial mixing. That was my only point. There were/are some black people with the genes for curly hair naturally.

oh ya, i edited my prev post to clarify further. Re-read the bottom part again please.

 

[Serenity_Peace]

Five words...

RACE. IS. A. SOCIAL. CONSTRUCT!!

But if we're talking about biology and genetics, that is much more complicated than which race is 1's, 2's, 3's and 4's.

 

[whitedaisez]

Ya, we are talkin more about genetics and features i.e dark skin, straight hair, etc.

 

[Neith]

oh ya, i edited my prev post to clarify further. Re-read the bottom part again please.

Yeah. The big thing for me was at least getting the point across that black people aren't limited to one color or hair type. That everything in between came from changes in the original Africans. That some of us DO have recessive genes from our African ancestors. That different hair types developed in "us" over time and not only from racial mixing.

I guess you agree on some level. I still don't agree with some things you said, but I'm not going to nitpick over your posting

Five words...

RACE. IS. SOCIAL. A. CONSTRUCT!!

But if we're talking about biology and genetics, that is much more complicated than which race is 1's, 2's, 3's and 4's.

I'm well aware of this, lol. I think most people, if not all of us here know that.

Even so, we all talk about race. You are on a hair board for women of color.

The difference between the "races" are superficial, but it's also human nature to notice differences and to sort and organize things.

In any case, how can you talk about the human migration out of Africa without bringing up race?

There is no scientific basis for race, but we still identify a black person as a black person and a white person as a white person. I'm sure you do.

 

[Christelyn]

I pretty much read the first and last page of this post and I must say it's a quite interesting debate. But I find this issue of race, hair and genetics pretty straightforward. I think that my challenge with growing (and keeping) my hair long has about 80% to do with my genetics. The majority of my genetics is rooted in African decent. If I were white or hispanic, I probably wouldn't have the same challenges as I do with keeping my hair at a nice length.

 

[whitedaisez]

Yeah. The big thing for me was at least getting the point across that black people aren't limited to one color or hair type. That everything in between came from changes in the original Africans. That some of us DO have recessive genes from our African ancestors. That different hair types developed in "us" over time and not only from racial mixing.

I guess you agree on some level. I still don't agree with some things you said, but I'm not going to nitpick over your posting

Well then, it depends mainly due to climatic/environmental conditions.
Evolution occurs when the environment changes dramatically and stays that way FOR A VERY VERY VERY long time.

The African continent is very hot and has stayed that way for a VERY long time; long/stable enough to evolve one hair type/color.
Since the African climate has not dramatically changed (to "less hot"), and has not stayed dramatic for a long enough period of time, it cannot enable the evolution of various hair types.
So racial mixing is the only probable way for diverse hair types.

Same in Europe. The cold climate there has not dramatically changed (to "less cold") and has not stayed that way for a LONG LONG enough time to enable tighter hair types/darker skin.
So any dark skinned/tight hair type person there, must have been racially mixed.

Since the African environment and the European environment are two EXTREMES, the genetic make-up of their native inhabitants are extreme as well.

eg.
polar bears (white) live in extreme cold and grizzly bears (brown) live in hot areas.
Except through mixing, there are no NATURALLY OCCURRING GREY/intermediate "prizzly" bears.

 

[Dani.Nicole]

Yeah. The big thing for me was at least getting the point across that black people aren't limited to one color or hair type. That everything in between came from changes in the original Africans. That some of us DO have recessive genes from our African ancestors. That different hair types developed in "us" over time and not only from racial mixing.

I don't mean to interject but...why is so wrong that certain attributes tend to characterize a group of people? Do you take offense to that? No one is innocent of stereotyping. People do it all the time. I don't think it's such a bad thing that people associate blacks or whites or any other group of people with certain characteristics. That's just seems to be how people identify others, thus the social construction of race. The real problem is that ignorance starts to consume us when we put labels on everything. It just needs to be understood that there will always be an anomaly that contradicts what we think we know about a certain group.

 

[whitedaisez]

I don't mean to interject but...why is so wrong that certain attributes tend to characterize a group of people? Do you take offense to that?

No one is innocent of stereotyping. People do it all the time. I don't think it's such a bad thing that people associate blacks or whites or any other group of people with certain characteristics. That's just seems to be how people identify others, thus the social construction of race. The real problem is that ignorance starts to consume us when we put labels on everything. It just needs to be understood that there will always be an anomaly that contradicts what we think we know about a certain group.

OMG!!!! THANK YOU!!!
i totally agree? why is sooo hard to believe that if u av a type 3a/b/c u must have some kind of mix? is it a BAD thing?? wtf?
pple with type 3b have more mixes than pple with 4b.
nevertheless, EVERYONE now is MIXED! period.

 

[Neith]

I don't mean to interject but...why is so wrong that certain attributes tend to characterize a group of people? Do you take offense to that? No one is innocent of stereotyping. People do it all the time. I don't think it's such a bad thing that people associate blacks or whites or any other group of people with certain characteristics. That's just seems to be how people identify others, thus the social construction of race. The real problem is that ignorance starts to consume us when we put labels on everything. It just needs to be understood that there will always be an anomaly that contradicts what we think we know about a certain group.

I'm not offended The point I was trying to make is that there is no ONE way a black person looks. There is some variation in all types of people.

Some people say that if you aren't the darkest of the dark or have the kinkiest of hair, then automatically you are mixed. Which isn't true 100% of the time. That's all.

 

[Neith]

OMG!!!! THANK YOU!!!
i totally agree? why is sooo hard to believe that if u av a type 3a/b/c u must have some kind of mix? is it a BAD thing?? wtf?
pple with type 3b have more mixes than pple with 4b.
nevertheless, EVERYONE now is MIXED! period.

When did I ever say it was bad to be mixed though?

What's so wrong with knowing that black people don't come in just one color or one hair texture?

 

[Dani.Nicole]

I'm not offended The point I was trying to make is that there is no ONE way a black person looks. There is some variation in all types of people.

Some people say that if you aren't the darkest of the dark or have the kinkiest of hair, then automatically you are mixed. Which isn't true 100% of the time. That's all.

LOL I thought you were! I understand what you're trying to say though. Because we tend to stereotype so much, it's hard for people to believe anything different than what has been ingrained into their heads by society.

 

[whitedaisez]

I'm not offended The point I was trying to make is that there is no ONE way a black person looks. There is some variation in all types of people.

Some people say that if you aren't the darkest of the dark or have the kinkiest of hair, then automatically you are mixed. Which isn't true 100% of the time. That's all.

The bold is true. At some point in Africa, EVERYONE looked the same.
Originally, there was no variation in africans (EXTREME ISOLATION).
Over hundreds of years later, everyone has now been been mixing.
Now, ALL variations in blacks/africans come from mixing.
Even the darked kinkiest haired african has been mixed!

 

[whitedaisez]

When did I ever say it was bad to be mixed though?

What's so wrong with knowing that black people don't come in just one color or one hair texture?

I did not say that YOU said it was bad.
There is nothing wrong with knowing that blacks are diverse.
You just need to know that these variations are all a result of mixing.
The african climate has not changed for long enough to NATURALLY allow skin, hair and nose varieties.
And there is NOTHING wrong with that.

 

[Kurlee]

this thread is being split into, old school, stereotypical views vs. newer, scientifically based, broader thought.

 

[song_of_serenity]

Some people are really pulling hard on the claiming mixing thing...

 

[Pretty Star]

Did anyone read the article posted, it says at one point:



...um Ok a Syndrome.. wow really ...I don't know what to think about that one.

For those that questioned Wooly Hair Syndrome. It is a real disorder found in some Caucasians. Wooly hair isn't the only symptom. It also causes heart abnormalities and other problems. It is rare but real. More info can be found at this link if you're interested :

http://www.orpha.net/data/patho/GB/uk-woollyhair.pdf

 

[Kurlee]

Some people are really pulling hard on the claiming mixing thing...

yea, i dunno why it's so hard to accept that we are diverse in skin and hair without having to be "mixed". Old habits die hard, I guess.

 

[soulie]

The bold is true. At some point in Africa, EVERYONE looked the same.
Originally, there was no variation in africans (EXTREME ISOLATION).
Over hundreds of years later, everyone has now been been mixing.
Now, ALL variations in blacks/africans come from mixing.
Even the darked kinkiest haired african has been mixed!

I would question this statement. Portions of Africa were isolated from each other and with climate variations, different characteristics, including skin tone, would have thrived and hence appeared dominant.

 

[Mz.MoMo5235]

i'm sorry but doesnt race have to do with genetics??? i mean grant it you can be mixed with 4 type hair and you can not be mixed with 2 and 3 type hair... but i dunno... i'm confused by the question a guess.. maybe i'm just slow lol

 

[Serenity_Peace]

For those that questioned Wooly Hair Syndrome. It is a real disorder found in some Caucasians. Wooly hair isn't the only symptom. It also causes heart abnormalities and other problems. It is rare but real. More info can be found at this link if you're interested :

http://www.orpha.net/data/patho/GB/uk-woollyhair.pdf

O.K., but I *still* believe that Jesus was some black Jewish dude!!

 

[Serenity_Peace]

yea, i dunno why it's so hard to accept that we are diverse in skin and hair without having to be "mixed". Old habits die hard, I guess.

Girl, you know how we do. Can't wait to claim that we mixed with Indian and all that nonsense!!

 

[Serenity_Peace]

.....................

 

[Serenity_Peace]

Yeah. The big thing for me was at least getting the point across that black people aren't limited to one color or hair type. That everything in between came from changes in the original Africans. That some of us DO have recessive genes from our African ancestors. That different hair types developed in "us" over time and not only from racial mixing.

I guess you agree on some level. I still don't agree with some things you said, but I'm not going to nitpick over your posting




I'm well aware of this, lol. I think most people, if not all of us here know that.

Even so, we all talk about race. You are on a hair board for women of color.

The difference between the "races" are superficial, but it's also human nature to notice differences and to sort and organize things.

In any case, how can you talk about the human migration out of Africa without bringing up race?

There is no scientific basis for race, but we still identify a black person as a black person and a white person as a white person. I'm sure you do.

I actually differ with you on this. I don't think that most people understand that race is socially constructed. I don't think the average American has evolved that much on this issue. And I continue to argue that hair type, skin color, etc., has much more to do with genetics, hereditary, and biology than race.

 

[curlicarib]

I haven't read the entire thread, so forgive me if I repeat others. Using my own family as an example, I have to say it's all about genetics. Race is a made up grouping created to classify people based on visual markers - skin color, hair texture, facial features, etc. In reality, these are all genetic traits. Mine is a "typical" caribean (Trinidad) family (in my opinion). We are a mixture of all the major "racial" food groups - black/Hispanic, white/spanish, Asian (chinese), & Asian (east indian). There is no correlation in my family between hair color, hair texture, eye color, facial features & skin color. As a matter of fact, we have a saying in my family - "anyone can give birth to anyone" - and we do. As an example, the last child born in my family has blond hair (3ish) & grey eyes. His mother has mostly Caribe Indian characteristics and his father has mostly "black" characteristics (good thing he looks like him!). Anyway, the point is, hair is genetic, not racial.

 

[whitedaisez]

I would question this statement. Portions of Africa were isolated from each other and with climate variations, different characteristics, including skin tone, would have thrived and hence appeared dominant.

No. portions in Africa were NOT isolated. Ever heard of the bantu migration? the nilotes? ngoni? Africans moved A LOT within the continent and INTRA bred A LOT! That is main reason kinky hair has survived.
And there were no dramatic climate variations in africa either. Even if there were, these variations must stable in place for AN EXTREMELY LONG PERIOD OF TIME to enable different characteristcs. That was not the case.

btw, kinky hair is vestigial.

 

[msa]

No. portions in Africa were NOT isolated. Ever heard of the bantu migration? the nilotes? ngoni? Africans moved A LOT within the continent and INTRA bred A LOT! That is main reason kinky hair has survived.
And there were no dramatic climate variations in africa either. Even if there were, these variations must stable in place for AN EXTREMELY LONG PERIOD OF TIME to enable different characteristcs. That was not the case.

btw, kinky hair is vestigial.

Maybe I'm understanding wrong but...did you really just say that on a continent as large as africa there were no dramatic climate variations and that people were not isolated from one another?

The continent is 11.7 million square miles and comprises 20% of the Earth's land. I think with that much land space it'd be pretty easy for people to be isolated from one another especially before there were easy ways to get around.

And part of the continent is above the equator, the other part is below, there are areas that are extreme deserts and others that are not. Clearly there are climate differences throughout the continent.

 

[Crackers Phinn]

My intuition tells me that if you sampled the indiginious people or oldest natives of the 47 African countries, that type 4 hair would be the norm. I'd also guesstimate that if you sampled the black diaspora the hairtype would come back nearly the same.

My intuition also tells me that race mixing would account for the majority of irregularities.

I don't see this as a bad thing. I don't understand why it's not ok for black Africans and their descendents to have their own independent unique features. I don't understand what we 'win' by arguing equal genetic access to type 1, 2, and 3 hair, especially when one look at most of our own heads kinda kicks that theory in the teeth.

DNA topics always remind me of whenever the picture of the little blue eyed black baby pops up and folks come in to show the same tired 10 pictures as proof that blue eyes and right along with blonde hair are damn near the norm in the diaspora.

 

[Neith]

My intuition tells me that if you sampled the indiginious people or oldest natives of the 47 African countries, that type 4 hair would be the norm. I'd also guesstimate that if you sampled the black diaspora the hairtype would come back nearly the same.

My intuition also tells me that race mixing would account for the majority of irregularities.

I don't see this as a bad thing. I don't understand why it's not ok for black Africans and their descendents to have their own independent unique features. I don't understand what we 'win' by arguing equal genetic access to type 1, 2, and 3 hair, especially when one look at most of our own heads kinda kicks that theory in the teeth.

DNA topics always remind me of whenever the picture of the little blue eyed black baby pops up and folks come in to show the same tired 10 pictures as proof that blue eyes and right along with blonde hair are damn near the norm in the diaspora.

Race mixing does account for many "irregularites". I never said that race mixing hasn't happened. I'm a black American, from a mutli-ethnic background myself.

I'm not saying that black people commonly have "white" features. I'm saying that we probably DO have natural variations is all.

Have you ever seen a people who have 1 skin color, 1 hair type and the exact same features? What were they, carbon copies? Like I've said more than once, yes kinky hair probably is the most common and dominant feature... but it's not like black people all had the exact same hairtype until they mixed with someone else. ESPECIALLY since all hairtypes started with "us"

There is and always was genetic VARIETY. If there wasn't, I don't think that we'd be here today. A species NEEDS genetic variety to thrive and survive.

I'm saying that there is variety WITHIN the blacks, even without being mixed. That's all.

Just in case this posting was directed at me. because if it was, I fear that I have been misunderstood.

 

[Neith]

I actually differ with you on this. I don't think that most people understand that race is socially constructed. I don't think the average American has evolved that much on this issue. And I continue to argue that hair type, skin color, etc., has much more to do with genetics, hereditary, and biology than race.

Really? So I'm giving the average person more credit than they deserve? Most people are too stupid to even google it? lol

Anyways, I wasn't saying that hair type, skin color is based on race. I said it's genetic probably more than once in this thread. In fact, lemme go quote myself... the very first thing I said in the thread.

Think of it the same way you think of skin color or any other feature. It's genetic.

So there ya go. We agree. Doesn't mean I don't talk about race or I'm not aware of it being a social construct.