Is Abortion Ever Allowable?

[nathansgirl1908]

I dont know if this has been asked or not b/c I havent read the whole thread so forgive me.

I have 4 children. If I got pregnant again ( crosses self ) and the child endangered my life to the point where I am expected to die if I carry the child to term, would it be wrong to terminate so that I can live for my other 4 children?

My answer is no but what do you think about it?

I don't think so. I would certainly understand why someone would do that and to be quite frank, I think God would too. It is MAN that places such strict standards on this kind of thing as evidenced by this thread and some of the responses. God does indeed know our hearts and he recognizes that we are in fact human. We are not perfect. Some of the things that have been stated in this thread boggle my mind because they don't take into account reality or the fact that we are but flesh.

 

[Poohbear]

@ spelmanlocks and nathansgirl1908,

Question:
If life doesn't begin at conception, then when do you think it begins according to God (not yourself)?

 

[Guitarhero]

I mean people justify in their mind what they want to do before the do it many times...that is what that scenario did...You made a cost benefit analysis to terminate one child based on 4. Desensitized the emotional/practical value of the one based on the 4 logically. Am I going to argue your personal logic, nope, or call your wrong and xyz, nope. Very few people will care about your children born or unborn more than you do. I still think it is scary, and I still think it's cold, so I'm glad that I am the only one with the power/responsibility(that I know of) to place and carry my own offspring to term.

But what about the people who are already here who need you to raise them? Not to mention, a spouse who will be single raising those kids when it could be prevented. You save not only 1 life, but the rest of the family.

That's why I made this thread, it's a very difficult subject and, IMHO, not exactly black and white. As a quasi analogy, I believe that persecuted people in war have a right to kill to preserve themselves - not murder, but to kill, especially when God is part of the matter. For example, religious groups. Amalekites, killed to further the people of God. I wonder if there would have been any christians without the killings back then. Sounds horrific, I know, but?????? Did Moses murder or did he kill? Because it happened as a response to his knowledge that he was, in fact, Hebrew and that he was being called to lead them out of bondage. The gray area for me is whether his anger was righteous or sinful. And that makes me wonder if killing a child who will kill the mother is righteous self-defense/family-defense or sinful such as to allow them both to die a horrible death.

 

[Poohbear]

^^^^CreoleNat, how about this... Religion and Reality don't always mix. I could elaborate but personally, even though I am "pro-life"...if I was a 10-year-old that was pregnant by a rapist, I would probably have an abortion.

 

[nathansgirl1908]

^^^^CreoleNat, how about this... Religion and Reality don't always mix. I could elaborate but personally, even though I am "pro-life"...if I was a 10-year-old that was pregnant by a rapist, I would probably have an abortion.

Religion and reality don't mix with certain TYPES of people, but it mixes with people who don't take themselves too seriously. I tend to ignore the unrealistic stuff. That's why each person's relationship with God is so inherently personal and unique.

 

[nathansgirl1908]

@ spelmanlocks and nathansgirl1908,

Question:
If life doesn't begin at conception, then when do you think it begins according to God (not yourself)?

Who knows? I won't sit here and say viability. But like you mentioned, I can't say conception either.





But I will go on a tangent and say this: God may or may not approve of or be pleased with abortions, but he probably isn't pleased with the unbending attitudes that some have towards the subject. Reading posts that suggest that someone should carry a baby to term when it could kill her, even when she has other children to raise, or in the case of a 10-yr old, just boggles my mind. And although I hate to see people disheartened, it is stuff like this that really turns people off and away from the church and ultimately from God.

 

[Guitarhero]

^^^^CreoleNat, how about this... Religion and Reality don't always mix. I could elaborate but personally, even though I am "pro-life"...if I was a 10-year-old that was pregnant by a rapist, I would probably have an abortion.

You can leave that carrot there dangling!!! I want to sample that one. What do you mean? Spill it!

 

[Poohbear]

Religion and reality don't mix with certain TYPES of people, but it mixes with people who don't take themselves too seriously. I tend to ignore the unrealistic stuff. That's why each person's relationship with God is so inherently personal and unique.

I agree.

Who knows? I won't sit here and say viability. But like you mentioned, I can't say conception either.

But I will go on a tangent and say this: God may or may not approve of or be pleased with abortions, but he probably isn't pleased with the unbending attitudes that some have towards the subject. Reading posts that suggest that someone should carry a baby to term when it could kill her, even when she has other children to raise, or in the case of a 10-yr old, just boggles my mind. And although I hate to see people disheartened, it is stuff like this that really turns people off and away from the church and ultimately from God.

Yeah. And since God is supposedly in control and nothing happens unless God wills it, He may very well approve of everything that goes on.

 

[~Sparklingflame~]

IMO abortions shouldnt be done EXCEPT in certain circumstances. One being the rape of a woman/child who has gotten pregnant as a result and two if the pregnancy is life threatening to the mother.

I cant see how its justifiable to let a mother of other children die as a result of a pregnancy that can kill her and I cant see the sense in making a baby have a baby in the event that she is raped.

In all things, even in the law of God there are exceptions. Sometimes you have to take the lesser of two evils.

 

[Poohbear]

You can leave that carrot there dangling!!! I want to sample that one. What do you mean? Spill it!

Well, it may go off subject a bit, but it's like this...I'm going to provide an example with tithing...

There are pastors that preach up and down how you must tithe 10% of your GROSS income, but in reality, it is NO WHERE in the Bible. They go as far as to say you are cursed and you sin against God if you do not tithe 10% of your GROSS income. That's what Religion wants you to do. But the Reality of it all is that based on each person's individual financial situation, it is IMPOSSIBLE (sorry for those that believe nothing's impossible with God, a verse that's commonly taken out of context) for everyone to tithe 10% of their gross income. Just with how the world and the economy runs, some people do not have enough left over. Yes, I have heard Christians say people need to save better, or spend less, or cut back on bills, but there are some genuine savers that STILL cannot afford to give one particular church 10% of their gross income, or even their net income. And why do they harp on it being just one particular church to give their money to? Is it really giving to God? Well some will argue "it's giving to God's people of the church". No, that money is going into a bank account somewhere for the church leaders to decide on how to spend the money.

But anyway, hope that makes somewhat of a point. But to use abortion as an example, fellow Christians can point out verses left and right against abortion and how bad of a sin it is and how God values life and so on so forth, but let this particular instance happen to us or someone close in our family or circle of friends. Let one of your daughters get pregnant by a rapist. Let one of your younger cousins or friends get pregnant by a rapist. Would these fellow Christians still say no to abortion? Just like those pro-choicers who say they aren't pro-abortion... pro-life doesn't always have to mean anti-abortion.

 

[spelmanlocks]

What I'm trying to explain is clearly YOUR perception of hypocrisy. Please try to understand what I'm saying. Again, I'm quoting the Bible on when life begins. If you don't believe that, then that's likely why you're having a hard time with this. I believe God has a purpose for every life, whether it gets the chance to be born or not... A failed pregnancy could likely serve its purpose to bring a husband/wife together or even to reinforce a woman's faith in God. Whatever the situation is, I believe there is a PURPOSE.


A tubal ectopic will KILL a woman. Period. That's not an abortion; the operation is to keep the fetus from rupturing the supertiny fallopian tube, so the woman doesn't die. It's not an option, like abortion. The only exception for an ectopic is if the fetus is in the abdomen, then there's a likely chance the fetus can come to term.

I don't know who "you all" is, but I'm done with this topic... you have a blessed day.

I'm not referencing you, but it was said in this thread that medical abortions are wrong, but in the same breath people are saying its okay to abort a tubal pregnancy. That's straight hypocrisy. And yes, purposely getting rid of a baby is abortion no matter what the reason. I know a tubal pregnancy will kill a woman, so will MANY other pregnancy situations. So you are saying its wrong to abort in any situation except for a tubal pregnancy. Why tubal pregnancy and no other medical situation? To me, that's just straight hypocrisy. And as a poster stated before there have been a few situations of women who have birthed babies from tubal pregnancies. Other posters in this thread said have faith and if it is god's will that you should die then so be it, so does that include ectopics?

Also, you are just quoting a bunch of interpretations of scripture and personal beliefs just as I am. The Bible is open to interpretation and everyone is not going to see the Bible in the same way that you do. Its just like my pastor is firmly against divorce. He does not believe a woman should leave her husband even if he beats her. He has quoted plenty of scripture regarding this. However, that's HIS interpretation. The things you have quoted are YOUR interpretation. NOT mine. Therefore please stop trying to convince me otherwise.

In reference to pooh bear's question, I believe life begins when you are born.

 

[Guitarhero]

I myself don't know when life begins and believe that the body is being knitted together but at some point and time, God places the soul within the body.

 

[spelmanlocks]

Who knows? I won't sit here and say viability. But like you mentioned, I can't say conception either.





But I will go on a tangent and say this: God may or may not approve of or be pleased with abortions, but he probably isn't pleased with the unbending attitudes that some have towards the subject. Reading posts that suggest that someone should carry a baby to term when it could kill her, even when she has other children to raise, or in the case of a 10-yr old, just boggles my mind. And although I hate to see people disheartened, it is stuff like this that really turns people off and away from the church and ultimately from God.

I agree, and it is sad. I doubt any of the women in this thread have been in that 10 year olds situation, so I take what people say about abortion in these situations with a grain of salt. No one knows what they would do until it happens to them.

 

[Poohbear]

I'm not referencing you, but it was said in this thread that medical abortions are wrong, but in the same breath people are saying its okay to abort a tubal pregnancy. That's straight hypocrisy. And yes, purposely getting rid of a baby is abortion no matter what the reason. I know a tubal pregnancy will kill a woman, so will MANY other pregnancy situations. So you are saying its wrong to abort in any situation except for a tubal pregnancy. Why tubal pregnancy and no other medical situation? To me, that's just straight hypocrisy. And as a poster stated before there have been a few situations of women who have birthed babies from tubal pregnancies. Other posters in this thread said have faith and if it is god's will that you should die then so be it, so does that include ectopics?

Also, you are just quoting a bunch of interpretations of scripture and personal beliefs just as I am. The Bible is open to interpretation and everyone is not going to see the Bible in the same way that you do. Its just like my pastor is firmly against divorce. He does not believe a woman should leave her husband even if he beats her. He has quoted plenty of scripture regarding this. However, that's HIS interpretation. The things you have quoted are YOUR interpretation. NOT mine. Therefore please stop trying to convince me otherwise.

In reference to pooh bear's question, I believe life begins when you are born.

You made a good point about hypocrisy. It goes to show you how there are so many factors that play into certain issues that are commonly debated.

And thanks for answering my question. And you know what? I can actually see how life begins when you're born. Just think about it... let's say someone is born December 25, 1934 and they die on December 25, 2004. No one says that the person lived to be 70 years old + the months he or she was in their mother's womb.

But even the word "life" is defined in so many ways. There are definitions that support a baby having life inside the mother's womb. See here: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/life

 

[Bachelorette]

Will you give some examples of God approving of worse things?

Just because some people like to do away with the Old Testament doesnt mean it doesnt exist or shouldnt be considered.

Read OT and you WILL see that he has approved of worse scenerios.

 

[Guitarhero]

You made a good point about hypocrisy. It goes to show you how there are so many factors that play into certain issues that are commonly debated.

And thanks for answering my question. And you know what? I can actually see how life begins when you're born. Just think about it... let's say someone is born December 25, 1934 and they die on December 25, 2004. No one says that the person lived to be 70 years old + the months he or she was in their mother's womb.

But even the word "life" is defined in so many ways. There are definitions that support a baby having life inside the mother's womb. See here: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/life

Actually, in some African traditions, the moment you are born, you are 1 year old.

 

[KnottyGurl]

I know alot of people are saying that the main reason she should abort is because of her age and size, but I found this list of similar incidents in the news to be interesting. It's sad, I know, but they did not abort and lived. Unless it's been decided that it's definitely life-threatening, I wouldn't want to make the situation worse by adding an unnecessary medical procedure to an already delicate situation. That's just my opinion though.

Cases by age of mother

[edit] Age 5

• 1939: Precocious puberty allowed Lina Medina of Ticrapo, Peru to become pregnant at 5 years, 7 months, and 21 days old; she gave birth to a 2.0 kg (4.4 lb) son, named Gerardo, by caesarean sectionLima. Her parents, who assumed their daughter had a tumor, took her to a hospital, where she was determined to be seven months pregnant. Although Medina's father was arrested on suspicion of child sexual abuse, he was later released due to lack of evidence, and the identity of who impregnated Medina was never uncovered.[1][2] on May 14, 1939 in

[edit] Age 8

• 2006: A girl from Huanuco, Peru, gave birth to a baby weighing 2 kg (4.4 lb) by caesarean section at a hospital in Lima in December 2006. Her ninth birthday occurred a couple of days later. She became pregnant after being raped by two of her cousins.[3][4]

[edit] Age 9

• 1957: Hilda Trujillo gave birth to a girl weighing over 6 lb (2.7 kg) at a hospital in Lima, Peru in December 1957. Her 22-year-old cousin, who was staying in her family's one-room house at the time, was arrested for rape.[5]
• 2001: Wanwisa Janmuk gave birth in February 2001 to a girl at a hospital in Phetchabun, a northern province of Thailand. The father was her 27-year-old husband; Thai law allows for the arranged marriages of minors by their parents.[6]
• 2004: A Singaporean girl gave birth to a boy in 2004 after being impregnated by a fellow student at her school. Her mother initially thought she had a urinary tract infection, but, upon taking her to the doctor, learned she was already six months pregnant. The baby was placed for adoption.[7]
• 2005: A girl gave birth to a baby boy by caesarean section at a hospital in Butare, Rwanda, in December 2005. The child, who underwent breast development at age six and menarche at age eight, became pregnant after being raped by her family's domestic servant.[8]
• 2006: A girl of the Apurinã, an indigenous people from the Amazon Rainforest in Brazil, gave birth to a baby girl weighing 2.2 kg (4.8 lb) by caesarean section at a hospital in Manaus in July 2006. Police are investigating the case.[9][10]
• 2010: A 9-year-old girl from Songyuan in north-east China gave birth to a healthy 2.75kg baby on January 27, 2010. A case has been registered with the police in this regard.[11][12]

Cont'd...

 

[KnottyGurl]

Part 2 cont'd

Age 10

* 1834: Sally Deweese of Butler County, Kentucky, was reported by Dr. D. Rowlett to have delivered a baby girl weighing 7.75 pounds (3.52 kg) on April 20, 1834. Deweese allegedly developed breasts within weeks of birth and began menstruating at 12 months.[13]
* 1979: A girl aged 10 gave birth to twins six weeks premature, both weighing 3 lb 6 oz, at a hospital in Indianapolis. She is thought to have been the youngest mother of twins at the time.[14]
* 2000: A girl from Bolivia gave birth to a baby girl weighing 2.5 kilograms (5.5 lb) by caesarean section at a hospital in Parque Patricios, Buenos Aires, Argentina on September 25, 2007. A 28-year-old was arrested on a charge of rape.[15][16]
* 2005: A girl from Calama, Chile, gave birth to a baby boy by caesarean section at a hospital in Antofagasta, Chile on April 13, 2005. The child became pregnant after having been raped by her father at age nine. Her parents, who both came from Bolivia, were jailed.[17][18][19]
* 2005: A girl gave birth to a baby girl at a hospital in Sion, Switzerland in August 2005. She had immigrated to Switzerland from Cameroon with her siblings when her mother married a Swiss citizen. A 68-year-old man who was in a relationship with the mother admitted to having molested the girl but a DNA test found that he was not the father of the girl's child.[20][21][22]
* 2006: A girl in Abbeville, South Carolina gave birth by caesarean section in 2006 after having been raped by then-26-year-old William Edward Ronca. Ronca admitted to having molested the girl over a two year period and was sentenced to 25 years in prison as a result. The baby was placed for adoption.[23]
* 2006: A girl from Charleroi, Belgium gave birth in 2006. After the child began gaining weight, her mother put her on a diet, but when the girl visited a doctor, it was discovered that she was nine months pregnant. The father was a then-13-year-old boy who attended the same school as the girl. News of the birth did not become publicly known until 2007.[24]
* 2006: A girl from Jaral del Progreso, Guanajuato, Mexico gave birth naturally to a baby girl weighing 2.3 kilograms (5.1 lb) on April 3, 2006. She became pregnant after being raped by a 47-year-old neighbour, who was sentenced to 11 years, 6 months in prison for the crime.[25][26]
* 2007: A girl from San Lorenzo Cacaotepec, Oaxaca, Mexico gave birth to a baby boy on July 2, 2007. Her pregnancy was the result of a rape committed by the 65-year-old landlord of the house which her parents rented. The man was jailed.[27][28][29][30]
* 2008: In St. Anthony, Idaho, U.S., a girl gave birth to a 6 pounds (2.7 kg) baby at Madison Memorial Hospital. 37-year-old Guadalupe Gutierrez-Juarez was jailed on one felony count of rape.[31]

Age 11

* 1972: A girl gave birth at the age of 11 years, 10 months at Royal Buckinghamshire Hospital in Aylesbury, England. The father was the young girl's stepbrother.[32]
* 2002: A girl from Bridgeport, Connecticut gave birth after being raped by a 75-year-old man, who was arrested on April 17, 2002.[33]
* 2004: A girl gave birth to a baby boy weighing 8.4 lb (3.8 kg) at a hospital in Kharkov, Ukraine in January 2004. The girl, who is currently the youngest mother in Ukraine, is suspected to have been impregnated by a 26-year-old neighbour, who fled in the fear of facing prosecution.[34]
* 2005: Valentina gave birth to a boy in Moscow, Russia, after she was impregnated by her 14-year-old boyfriend.[35]
* 2006: A girl of African origin gave birth to a baby boy at a hospital in West London, United Kingdom on May 5, 2006. A 37-year-old man was arrested.[36]
* 2007: A girl from Valhalla Park, Cape Town, South Africa gave birth to a baby boy on July 12, 2007. An elderly security guard was arrested in connection with rape. She agreed to give the baby up for adoption on the condition she could visit him once a month.[37]
* 2007: A girl from Lockland, Ohio, gave birth to a child on November 4, 2007. Her mother's boyfriend, Michael Chaffer, was sentenced to 28 years in prison on charges of felonious assault and two counts of rape. The baby is under the care of relatives.[38]
* 2009: Kordeza Zhelyazkova, a Roma school girl, gave birth to a healthy daughter in Bulgaria on her wedding day. Nineteen-year-old husband Jeliazko Dimitrov, with whom the child was allegedly conceived a week after meeting, now faces up to six years in jail for having sex with a minor. [39][40]
* 2010: An unidentified girl in Texas gave birth without complications to a healthy baby boy. No information was available regarding the father's identity. "My daughter and (her) baby are fine, and the baby is absolutely beautiful," said the mother of the 11-year-old girl.[41]

 

[MahoganyJazz]

Actually, you're wrong. Here's 1 case that's an example of a woman carrying a baby to term in her TUBE! It can, and has happened. Period.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3294090

A tubal ectopic will KILL a woman. Period.

 

[~Sparklingflame~]

Actually, you're wrong. Here's 1 case that's an example of a woman carrying a baby to term in her TUBE! It can, and has happened. Period.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3294090

If that happened to me, I would not take that chance.

 

[Guitarhero]

I know alot of people are saying that the main reason she should abort is because of her age and size, but I found this list of similar incidents in the news to be interesting. It's sad, I know, but they did not abort and lived. Unless it's been decided that it's definitely life-threatening, I wouldn't want to make the situation worse by adding an unnecessary medical procedure to an already delicate situation. That's just my opinion though.

Actually, the girl inspired the thread but her circumstances didn't color my opinion. It's rather about maternal morbidity from complications at any age. And such complications do increase with prolonged labor the younger the mother. In developing countries, the life-expectancy of surviving children lowers post maternal morbidity.

Actually, you're wrong. Here's 1 case that's an example of a woman carrying a baby to term in her TUBE! It can, and has happened. Period.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3294090

Did you actually purchase the article to read the stats, determing this as extremely rare as well?

 

[Lylddlebit]

But what about the people who are already here who need you to raise them? Not to mention, a spouse who will be single raising those kids when it could be prevented. You save not only 1 life, but the rest of the family.

That's why I made this thread, it's a very difficult subject and, IMHO, not exactly black and white. As a quasi analogy, I believe that persecuted people in war have a right to kill to preserve themselves - not murder, but to kill, especially when God is part of the matter. For example, religious groups. Amalekites, killed to further the people of God. I wonder if there would have been any christians without the killings back then. Sounds horrific, I know, but?????? Did Moses murder or did he kill? Because it happened as a response to his knowledge that he was, in fact, Hebrew and that he was being called to lead them out of bondage. The gray area for me is whether his anger was righteous or sinful. And that makes me wonder if killing a child who will kill the mother is righteous self-defense/family-defense or sinful such as to allow them both to die a horrible death.

That's the thing...I don't subscribe to the consequentialism ideology of thinking(where the consequences of the action determine if it was moral or not). To me the means is just as important than the end if not more so. I don't always get it right, but when I actually do something with pure motives(not damage control, not making the best out of it, not salvaging what I may) then it is what it is. A husband is designed to be the head of the household, that remains with or without my heartbeat, and I expect that from a man chosen as my husband. Children are to be taken care of until they can take care of themselves, that starts in pregnancy to me. I don't see my benefits to the quality of life in those around me as more important than the right to life to someone inside me. However, I understand how that can be controversial being human, or living in America and other developed countries.

 

[Bachelorette]

Did the person who posted pre teens having not dying from birth complications bother to read that 95% of those cases were due to rape and incest?

Is that something to be proud of? "well her brother raped her and she didnt abort she didnt die during child birth, so no one should use that as an excuse"..Seriously? or what is the point of that list?

 

[KnottyGurl]

Here we go...

Where did you get that I was saying that's something to be proud of? Like I said in my post, "I" felt that if the abortion wasn't absolutely life-threatening, then "I" don't understand why people are so quick to put this child through a procedure that in itself could do more harm than good. I thought the list was interesting b/c obviously this isn't the first case of this happenening, including this year. Also, I think it shows what the body CAN handle if necessary.

You need to get a grip and re-examine why you're so defensive.

Relax-Relate-Release

Did the person who posted pre teens having not dying from birth complications bother to read that 95% of those cases were due to rape and incest?

Is that something to be proud of? "well her brother raped her and she didnt abort she didnt die during child birth, so no one should use that as an excuse"..Seriously? or what is the point of that list?

 

[Nice & Wavy]

Father, forgive them...for they know not what they do or say!

In Jesus name, amen.

 

[Guitarhero]

Father, forgive them...for they know not what they do or say!

In Jesus name, amen.

Who????

 

[Nice & Wavy]

Who????

I was talking to the Lord...He knows.

Have a blessed evening, CreoleNat.

ETA: and before anyone gets bent out of shape, I wasn't talking to the Lord about anyone specific in this thread, ok?

 

[Poohbear]

I was talking to the Lord...He knows.

Have a blessed evening, CreoleNat.

ETA: and before anyone gets bent out of shape, I wasn't talking to the Lord about anyone specific in this thread, ok?

If you were talking to the Lord, then why did you post your so-called "talk with the Lord" in CreoleNat's thread? (a question that doesn't need to be answered) No one is stupid or ignorant, you were definitely aiming at one or more ladies in this thread...

 

[Nice & Wavy]

If you were talking to the Lord, then why did you post your so-called "talk with the Lord" in CreoleNat's thread? (a question that doesn't need to be answered) No one is stupid or ignorant, you were definitely aiming at one or more ladies in this thread...

You know PB...I'm really tired of you coming behind my posts in many threads and questioning my motives. I have a right to post what I like, just like you and everyone else on this forum. I would appreciate it if you would leave me alone...if not, I will certainly ask that it be enforced.

Thank you.

 

[Poohbear]

Did the person who posted pre teens having not dying from birth complications bother to read that 95% of those cases were due to rape and incest?

Is that something to be proud of? "well her brother raped her and she didnt abort she didnt die during child birth, so no one should use that as an excuse"..Seriously? or what is the point of that list?

I think she was posting that to show how there were young girls who had no problems giving birth to children, not as something to be proud of. It is sad that most of these cases were from rape and incest.