Is Abortion Ever Allowable?

[Reminiscing]

Yes, prayer changes things, and we should all have faith, but I don't see how it is totally relevant to the topic. In your mother's situation she WANTED the child. I think this is more about when people DON'T want to keep the child for various reasons. If someone wants to keep her baby, whether the doctors say it is dangerous or not, she should. They aren't going to force her to abort. Same with rape or being too young .

It is relevant to the topic in that someone asked in the thread for stories of anyone who's been through it, therefore I shared my mother's story.

Also, the topic is whether abortion is ok when it's needed due to health reasons. It's not about whether someone wants their baby or not. My mother was faced with the choice live or abort due to a health situation. It's completely relevant to this thread. You should read the original post again.

 

[topsyturvy86]

In the time of the bible children were equal with cattle. The same thing would have happend if a guy killed your sheep by accident. Theonly the time they are treated differently if when God tells the parents they will be " special".

God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. I don't think God values children any less today than he did then ,or more or less than adults. In the KJV it said the 'fruit' in her womb, not the child in her womb.

On the topic, I think its a very personal thing between a person and God and really depends on the situation. If the mother is most certainly going to die and the fetus too if the pregancy continues, I think it would be better if the mother got saved and fetus removed and at least one life be saved. She can try for another baby if she can still carry but if they both die ... well... My cousin died of pregnancy complications (it was in her womb). She could have tried again.

 

[Poohbear]

I have no problem with abortion especially in the case of rape and incest. No one is free from sin, especially these days as people pick and choose what they want to follow from the Bible. Plus, the Bible does not clearly state where life begin, so all we can do is interject our own interpretation. Either way God will make the final decision on judgment day, all we can do is live our life the best way we can.

So would you all tell a woman with an ectopic pregnancy to keep the child, even though there is an overwhelming chance she will die and only a handful of ectopics that have been carried to term in recorded history? If so, numerous women who are alive today would be dead.

When Does Life Begin?​

According to Psalm 51:5 life begins at conception: “Indeed, I was born guilty, a sinner when my mother conceived me” the psalmist laments. If one can be a sinner as soon as they are conceived, then they must be "alive" and possess a complete human nature at the time of conception. The psalmist continues: “...you created my innermost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb.” (Psalm 139:13-16) The image of being “knit together” suggests the intricate weaving together of body and soul; and a body plus a soul equals a life.

 

[nathansgirl1908]

BUT, the baby was in your friends womb, where the etopic pregnancy is not....that's the difference.

Again, your friend made a CHOICE, where with an etopic pregancy you don't have a CHOICE...you can't live if a baby is in your abdomen....eta: and neither can the baby....there is nourishment in the womb, the baby is connected to the mother via the cord...there's no cord in the abdomen.

Yes, but based on what others have said, apparently it was all part of God's plan. So any woman experiencing this should just pray and have faith, but not get rid of the baby.

 

[Laela]

You're right, none of those Scriptures alludes to getting rid of a fetus as wrong... I provided Scripture to address your asking where in the Bible does it say life begins. You are free a free moral agent, to choose what you believe and what you don't believe. I'm not disputing what you believe.

None of those things state getting rid of a fetus is wrong. Again you have interpreted them to say that.

The woman in that article had a laproscopic surgery which means the doctors REMOVED the fetus. Had she not had the surgery to remove it she would have died. It is nearly impossible to survive an ectopic pregnancy without getting rid of the fetus. In some cases doctors give women medicine to take which dissolves the fetus, in other cases they remove it surgically.

ETA: I'm sure someone has mentioned this but many argue that the Bible also condones slavery, but I doubt any of you would agree to going back to being a slave.

And here I'll address that not all ectopic pregnancies are tubal. It's impossible for a fetus to grow to term in a woman's fallopian tube. The fetus will rupture the tiny tube and kill the woman from massive bleeding. But there have been cases of ectopic pregnancies in the belly, outside of the womb, that have resulted in live births.

Well as I said before all you can do is live your life the best you know how. If you don't believe in abortion, then don't get one, its simple. I am firmly pro-choice. Always have been and always will be. You will likely always be pro-life, and I really don't care to change your mind. Now I personally would never get an abortion unless my life was in danger, but I don't begrudge women who get them for whatever reason. I also believe its a matter of personal choice. And as long as the many societal ills we have exist that lead to women seeking an abortion, it will always be around.

And Nice&Wavy--you will never know if that Baby would have survived either. There are a few documented cases of women who gave birth to babies from an ectopic pregnancy. There is no difference between aborting an ectopic or aborting a baby for any other medical reason, IMO.

*And I know the Bible doesn't use the word abortion.

 

[spelmanlocks]

You're right, none of those Scriptures alludes to getting rid of a fetus as wrong... I provided Scripture to address your asking where in the Bible does it say life begins. You are free a free moral agent, to choose what you believe and what you don't believe. I'm not disputing what you believe.

And here I'll address that not all ectopic pregnancies are tubal. It's impossible for a fetus to grow to term in a woman's fallopian tube. The fetus will rupture the tiny tube and kill the woman from massive bleeding. But there have been cases of ectopic pregnancies in the belly, outside of the womb, that have resulted in live births.

Either way it seems a bit hypocritical to me, if you all say life begins at conception. Medical abortions are wrong, but oh wait, its okay if its an ectopic. So its okay for a woman with an ectopic to save her life, but for a woman with other issues surrounding pregnancy, she should risk death and continue on with the pregnancy? And yes, I'm well aware ectopics can be in various places in the abdomen, from the ovaries, outside the uterus, etc.

 

[MahoganyJazz]

There are also cases of full term tubal pregnancies, resulting in healthy babies and mothers. So no, it isn't impossible for that to happen.

 

[Guitarhero]

To answer your revised question, my church's stance would vary per person. By the way, my church is multi-cultural and non-denominational but holds closest to Southern Baptist doctrine. But anyway, I know the pastor (who happens to be my dad) would say absolutely no to this girl having an abortion and that the girl should go through with the pregnancy and attempt to give birth to child. However, other church leaders and members in my church might say yes to abortion since the girl was raped and she is young. And no, no one would be excommunicated at my church if they had an abortion. If the church sees abortion as a sin, it's just as forgivable as any other sin committed by other people. Hope that answers your question and sticks to the topic you have presented.

Well, not that we know yet if the girl is in medical danger, hypothetically. They would allow a mother to abort if her life were in danger?

 

[Guitarhero]

I personally think abortion is allowable when the mothers life is in danger. If the mother dies, the fetus dies too, whearas if the fetus is taken out, the mother can live.
There is this scripture in the bible, Exodus 21:22-23

"22If men contend with each other, and a pregnant woman [interfering] is hurt so that she has a miscarriage, yet no further damage follows, [the one who hurt her] shall surely be punished with a fine [paid] to the woman's husband, as much as the judges determine.

23But if any damage follows, then you shall give life for life"

This makes me think the life of a feutus is valuable, yes, but not as valuable as the life of the mother. When the life of the mother is taken, it's life for life but for the fetus, not necessarily so.

Thanks for the scripture. In some circumstances where there is a father with young children and endangered pregnant wife, they truly face a dilemma and deserve compassion, either way they choose. I personally wouldn't want the father and young children to suffer without a mother. It's a tough situation.

 

[Guitarhero]

Can I share something?

An etopic pregnancy is far different than someone having an abortion.

As a woman who had an etopic pregnancy, I know I would have died because the baby can't live in the fallopian tube, that's why they rupture. Once the rupture happens, if the baby stays, the mother dies. However, that is still a baby growing, even though he/she will never get a chance to live in the world.

An abortion on the other hand, is done by decision. Whether its for saving the mother's life or because the person makes a choice not to have the child.

It doesn't say many things in the bible about what we may know about 'life', but it doesn't negate the fact that God has created our lives and we shouldn't take it for granted.

Ok, I'm done here...I just wanted to share my thoughts on this post.

Have a great day!

How did the doctor remove the ectopic pregnancy? I don't see the difference between some llife-threatening condition where fetus is in utero. Not sure when pre-eclampsia usually develops but that is a fatal condition if not treated either by inducing birth or caesarean. I'm not sure if it occurs early enough for an abortion to be performed. That's one reason why I ask this difficult question.

 

[Guitarhero]

BUT, the baby was in your friends womb, where the etopic pregnancy is not....that's the difference.

Again, your friend made a CHOICE, where with an etopic pregancy you don't have a CHOICE...you can't live if a baby is in your abdomen....eta: and neither can the baby....there is nourishment in the womb, the baby is connected to the mother via the cord...there's no cord in the abdomen.

Sorry for the 4-5 posts back to back, my computer was fried today. But um, I know of a woman who had a full-term ectopic pregnancy and the doctor advised her against it but closely monitored her with her decision to carry full-term. They both survived but I think she's sterile now. She should have died but didn't.

I know what the gist of this thread is, but I wanted to address this: Because a pregnancy is unwanted - no matter the circumstances - it doesn't mean God didn't have a purpose for that seed. However, man does possess the power of Life and Death by his very tongue - Prov. 18:21.

They could abort even though wanting the child. I agree about the purpose of all life. Power of the tongue? A doctor concluding a pregnancy is potentially fatal and because they're not exactly at that stage (trauma and distress requiring immediate termination), his words produce the death? Or are you alluding to something else?

 

[cgolden]

At this stage, I suspect it wouldn't even be a 'vaginal' abortion - they might have to more or less give her a section, as the baby might be too big to fit through her pelvis already.

*sigh*

No. They would remove it vaginally, but cut the baby into pieces while it's still inside her and pull piece by piece out. A baby can be aborted anytime during pregnancy so there are soooo many different procedures.

But i dont think abortion is ever right in the eyes of God, but He is a forgiving God, so He would throw it into a sea of forgetfulness once you repent.

I feel like the sexual abuse will be more mentally traumatic than having the child or aborting. Physically it depends on the girl. I dont know the case, but she wouldnt b ther first 10 year old to have a baby and survive.

 

[Poohbear]

Well, not that we know yet if the girl is in medical danger, hypothetically. They would allow a mother to abort if her life were in danger?

Did you even read what I said?
Only the pastor would say NO to her aborting the child, even if her life was in danger.
Other church leaders and members might say YES to her aborting the child since she was raped and if her life was in danger since she is so young.

 

[CoilyFields]

When Does Life Begin?​

According to Psalm 51:5 life begins at conception: “Indeed, I was born guilty, a sinner when my mother conceived me” the psalmist laments. If one can be a sinner as soon as they are conceived, then they must be "alive" and possess a complete human nature at the time of conception. The psalmist continues: “...you created my innermost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb.” (Psalm 139:13-16) The image of being “knit together” suggests the intricate weaving together of body and soul; and a body plus a soul equals a life.

Very good point!

 

[CoilyFields]

No. They would remove it vaginally, but cut the baby into pieces while it's still inside her and pull piece by piece out. A baby can be aborted anytime during pregnancy so there are soooo many different procedures.

But i dont think abortion is ever right in the eyes of God, but He is a forgiving God, so He would throw it into a sea of forgetfulness once you repent.

I feel like the sexual abuse will be more mentally traumatic than having the child or aborting. Physically it depends on the girl. I dont know the case, but she wouldnt b ther first 10 year old to have a baby and survive.

And yet we are debating if God would approve of this...

 

[Bachelorette]

He has approved of worse scenarios.

 

[Guitarhero]

No. They would remove it vaginally, but cut the baby into pieces while it's still inside her and pull piece by piece out. A baby can be aborted anytime during pregnancy so there are soooo many different procedures.

But i dont think abortion is ever right in the eyes of God, but He is a forgiving God, so He would throw it into a sea of forgetfulness once you repent.

I feel like the sexual abuse will be more mentally traumatic than having the child or aborting. Physically it depends on the girl. I dont know the case, but she wouldnt b ther first 10 year old to have a baby and survive.

I thought the cut-off was 4 months or so? And I thought that partial-birth was a banned practice in this country.

 

[Guitarhero]

Did you even read what I said?
Only the pastor would say NO to her aborting the child, even if her life was in danger.
Other church leaders and members might say YES to her aborting the child since she was raped and if her life was in danger since she is so young.

Yes I did and I refocused my response toward the case of medical danger only. I wasn't sure if your response meant in general, that particular girl (who's not in medical danger) or a case presently in your congregation. If there is no distress of child and mother, then it's not a medical emergency, it's just the case in which a young girl is preggers. That's what I mean.


See, I'm not going to support anyone getting an abortion in the case of rape and other circumstances, I'd only support abortion in the case of self-defense to save the life of the mother. Thanks for the info about your religious side and support or rejection of the procedure. Can you be a little NICER in your responses and not try to provoke folks as you typically do? Sorry, but that's how I see it.

 

[nathansgirl1908]

According to Psalm 51:5 life begins at conception: “Indeed, I was born guilty, a sinner when my mother conceived me” the psalmist laments. If one can be a sinner as soon as they are conceived, then they must be "alive" and possess a complete human nature at the time of conception. The psalmist continues: “...you created my innermost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb.” (Psalm 139:13-16) The image of being “knit together” suggests the intricate weaving together of body and soul; and a body plus a soul equals a life.

I disagree. I don't think that really means that life begins at conception. I think the point is that God creates everything and that we are ALL sinners, even from the time we are born.

Either way, I think that no one really knows what they would do until they are in that situation. People can say that the women should pray and have faith and the like, but until you are facing it YOU JUST DON'T KNOW how you are going to react. I am pro-choice, I can't say that I would have an abortion myself, but I also can't say that I wouldn't. It just depends. But whatever the case may be, as some have said, IF it is a sin, God is just as forgiving of that sin as He is of other sins.

 

[~Sparklingflame~]

I dont know if this has been asked or not b/c I havent read the whole thread so forgive me.

I have 4 children. If I got pregnant again ( crosses self ) and the child endangered my life to the point where I am expected to die if I carry the child to term, would it be wrong to terminate so that I can live for my other 4 children?

My answer is no but what do you think about it?

 

[Guitarhero]

I dont know if this has been asked or not b/c I havent read the whole thread so forgive me.

I have 4 children. If I got pregnant again ( crosses self ) and the child endangered my life to the point where I am expected to die if I carry the child to term, would it be wrong not to terminate so that I can live for my other 4 children?

My answer is no but what do you think about it?

That's what I'm saying because I know of folks. God can heal but He also uses medicine to accomplish that.

 

[Ms Lala]

I understand that. It would still be sinning, but I think it would be judged differently. Even if you kill someone in self defense, it doesn't change the fact that you murdered someone. Is it judged differently? Absolutely.

The circumstances do make a difference in whether something is killing or murder. The translation of the commandment is not to murder. I don't agree that killing someone in self-defense is murder. If this was the case this would mean that the soldiers overseas right now are sinning whenever there is a war related fatality. There are times in the old testament when God instructed people to go to war and kill entire groups of people. Was this a sin when they were following the instructions of the Lord? And please know I am not comparing abortion to war just pointing out that all killing is not always a sin from what I read in the bible.
Circumstances and intent do make a difference.

 

[Lylddlebit]

I was going to wait until this thread faded to a close, but it it's still here so. Abortion: Well free will is allowable, so we are able to have abortions without being forced to carry a baby to term. I however will never believe that God condones consciously taking a life because it suits our comfort level, eases our fears, or fits into a mold of convenience. Aborting a miracle, aborting any child for any reason blows me. I once told a relative to asked me what I thought about it "something scares me about a person who can kill half of themselves especially when they claim to love me."

 

[~Sparklingflame~]

I was going to wait until this thread faded to a close, but it it's still here so. Abortion: Well free will is allowable, so we are able to have abortions without being forced to carry a baby to term. I however will never believe that God condones consciously taking a life because it suits our comfort level, eases our fears, or fits into a mold of convenience. Aborting a miracle, aborting any child for any reason blows me. I once told a relative to asked me what I thought about it "something scares me about a person who can kill half of themselves especially when they claim to love me."

What about this reason that I posted above??

I have 4 children. If I got pregnant again ( crosses self ) and the child endangered my life to the point where I am expected to die if I carry the child to term, would it be wrong to terminate so that I can live for my other 4 children?

 

[Lylddlebit]

What about this reason that I posted above??

I posted the answer to that question in the following sentence. I probably should have worded it better. Someone who can kill there baby consciously scares me to a degree. I see killing your baby as killing a part of yourself...damaging the part that is selfless or has unconditional love for no reason. You either desensitize yourself to the gravity of what took place, or learn to accept what you did. Emotionally that is scary to me, it's cold, to set those emotions aside or not have them at all.

 

[~Sparklingflame~]

I posted the answer to that question in the following sentence. I probably should have worded it better. Someone who can kill there baby consciously scares me to a degree. I see killing your baby as killing a part of yourself...damaging the part that is selfless or has unconditional love for no reason. You either desensitize yourself to the gravity of what took place, or learn to accept what you did. Emotionally that is scary to me, it's cold, to set those emotions aside or not have them at all.

Hmmm. I dont see how this answers the question but thanks!

 

[Lylddlebit]

I mean people justify in their mind what they want to do before the do it many times...that is what that scenario did...You made a cost benefit analysis to terminate one child based on 4. Desensitized the emotional/practical value of the one based on the 4 logically. Am I going to argue your personal logic, nope, or call your wrong and xyz, nope. Very few people will care about your children born or unborn more than you do. I still think it is scary, and I still think it's cold, so I'm glad that I am the only one with the power/responsibility(that I know of) to place and carry my own offspring to term.

 

[Prudent1]

I thought the cut-off was 4 months or so? And I thought that partial-birth was a banned practice in this country.

It is but since when has that stopped ppl from doing what they want to do? Abortion itself was illegal not so long ago but ppl still found ways. Just like gun control laws or laws regarding intoxication, etc. Law abiding ppl aren't the ones breaking laws and lawbreakers are going to continue to break whatever laws anyway. It happens. If you can pay the right amount, you can do a lot of things...

He has approved of worse scenarios.

Will you give some examples of God approving of worse things?

 

[~Sparklingflame~]

I mean people justify in their mind what they want to do before the do it many times...that is what that scenario did...You made a cost benefit analysis to terminate one child based on 4. Desensitized the emotional/practical value of the one based on the 4 logically. Am I going to argue your personal logic, nope, or call your wrong and xyz, nope. Very few people will care about your children born or unborn more than you do. I still think it is scary, and I still think it's cold, so I'm glad that I am the only one with the power/responsibility(that I know of) to place and carry my own offspring to term.

If Im understanding you right, yes, to abort the child in my scenario is wrong.

 

[Laela]

What I'm trying to explain is clearly YOUR perception of hypocrisy. Please try to understand what I'm saying. Again, I'm quoting the Bible on when life begins. If you don't believe that, then that's likely why you're having a hard time with this. I believe God has a purpose for every life, whether it gets the chance to be born or not... A failed pregnancy could likely serve its purpose to bring a husband/wife together or even to reinforce a woman's faith in God. Whatever the situation is, I believe there is a PURPOSE.


A tubal ectopic will KILL a woman. Period. That's not an abortion; the operation is to keep the fetus from rupturing the supertiny fallopian tube, so the woman doesn't die. It's not an option, like abortion. The only exception for an ectopic is if the fetus is in the abdomen, then there's a likely chance the fetus can come to term.

I don't know who "you all" is, but I'm done with this topic... you have a blessed day.

Either way it seems a bit hypocritical to me, if you all say life begins at conception. Medical abortions are wrong, but oh wait, its okay if its an ectopic. So its okay for a woman with an ectopic to save her life, but for a woman with other issues surrounding pregnancy, she should risk death and continue on with the pregnancy? And yes, I'm well aware ectopics can be in various places in the abdomen, from the ovaries, outside the uterus, etc.