If a man isn't hands-on with the kids is that divorce worthy?

[Southernbella.]

As it relates to the topic I think parenting hands down is a double responsibility and this isn't in part to the marriage or an extra benefit of being a wife. This isn’t an expectation that I would have for a Husband but an expectation for any man that creates a child.

If I was arguing with my Husband about being more hands on with the kids and he yelled back that I need to work on my potato salad…then we don’t need to be together.

Ok, but that's not what I said. What I'm saying is that everyone in a relationship has expectations. I'm not talking about arguing here. I'm talking about giving someone a grace period to get their ish together, instead of saying "well, you suck at (sex/changing diapers/cooking/cleaning/budgeting/etc), so here are the papers. Have a good one!"

Just because a man doesn't change diapers at 3 months doesn't mean he won't be a great parent to his 4 year old. Circumstances change, people change, and I think it's only fair to give a person a chance to learn something that doesn't come naturally to them.

 

[JustKiya]

I see what you're saying, but to me, it seems completely counter-productive to go from being married to a man who doesn't help much to being divorced with no help at all. How is that better for the child? Yeah, at 3 months, he may not change diapers or get up in the middle of the night, and it may piss you off, but are you (general) really willing to sacrifice the next 17 years of fatherhood because he hasn't "gotten it" yet?

Men can be trained to be fathers, just like they can be trained to clean or make love or anything else. My dh was never completely hands off, but he pulled that 'calling and asking how long I'd be gone because he was oh so exhausted from being with the kids for an hour' routine a time or two. You just have to let them know, in no uncertain terms, what you expect.

I guess I'm thinking that if he was a good enough man to marry, and a good enough man to have a baby with, then he's a good enough man to sit down and communicate with, rather than calling it a day because he hasn't immediately taken to fatherhood.

The friend in the OP needs to have a sit down. It sounds like she's been accepting this behavior. Her dh, like any human, is doing what he's doing because he's getting away with it.

I'm with you, 100%.

I'm a little - hairtrigger - on this one, because I know FAAAARRR too many women who are married to men who are not trainable - or who out and out refuse to be trained. And yeah, they have tried to communicate, they have tried to train - and they still can't trust him to actually watch and take care of his own children.
And honestly, a man who is willing to leave his child sitting in it's own **** is (in my mind) not liable to shift to become a loving, generous, considerate, involved father once the kid is potty-trained. For farks sake, you can read the damn side of the package to figure it out!

At what point do you opt to draw the line? How long do you wait to see if he does become a hands-on father? How much 'training' should you really have to do to get a man to understand that he is a father, with just as many child related responsibilities as the mother has? In my mind, 3 months should be enough - plenty, in fact. *shrug* Hell, I think 3 weeks should be enough to learn that when the baby stinks, you change the diaper, and when the baby cries, you get up and get the child, and I think it's both an excuse for the man to say 'Oh, I just don't know what to do' and an insult to assume that all women somehow magically do.

But that's me, coming from a childless POV.

 

[Southernbella.]

I'm with you, 100%.

I'm a little - hairtrigger - on this one, because I know FAAAARRR too many women who are married to men who are not trainable - or who out and out refuse to be trained. And yeah, they have tried to communicate, they have tried to train - and they still can't trust him to actually watch and take care of his own children.
And honestly, a man who is willing to leave his child sitting in it's own **** is (in my mind) not liable to shift to become a loving, generous, considerate, involved father once the kid is potty-trained. For farks sake, you can read the damn side of the package to figure it out!

At what point do you opt to draw the line? How long do you wait to see if he does become a hands-on father? How much 'training' should you really have to do to get a man to understand that he is a father, with just as many child related responsibilities as the mother has? In my mind, 3 months should be enough - plenty, in fact. *shrug* Hell, I think 3 weeks should be enough to learn that when the baby stinks, you change the diaper, and when the baby cries, you get up and get the child, and I think it's both an excuse for the man to say 'Oh, I just don't know what to do' and an insult to assume that all women somehow magically do.

But that's me, coming from a childless POV.

See, I'm honestly inclined to think that "fathers" like these are not good people in the first place. I could be wrong, but a good person, a decent human being, would not allow a child, especially their own child, to sit in its own filth or to cry incessantly without reacting. So no, I couldn't stay married to a man like that. I would have never married a man like that.

I mean, can a man do a complete 180 and become completely lazy and disinterested in his family once the baby is coming/born? Yeah, but those men are likely sociopaths, a la Scott Peterson.

 

[ladysaraii]

I don't know if I'd divorce him, but you best believe babe would be an only child.

And saying that 'men don't know what to do' is an out. There are a lot of women whose first diaper change was done on their first child - you don't see them leaving the kid in their own waste. Nah, they figure out how the hell to do it. Men have a big arse brain and two hands just like we do. Umph.

B/c thanks aint enough

I see what you're saying, but to me, it seems completely counter-productive to go from being married to a man who doesn't help much to being divorced with no help at all. How is that better for the child? Yeah, at 3 months, he may not change diapers or get up in the middle of the night, and it may piss you off, but are you (general) really willing to sacrifice the next 17 years of fatherhood because he hasn't "gotten it" yet?

Men can be trained to be fathers, just like they can be trained to clean or make love or anything else. My dh was never completely hands off, but he pulled that 'calling and asking how long I'd be gone because he was oh so exhausted from being with the kids for an hour' routine a time or two. You just have to let them know, in no uncertain terms, what you expect.

I guess I'm thinking that if he was a good enough man to marry, and a good enough man to have a baby with, then he's a good enough man to sit down and communicate with, rather than calling it a day because he hasn't immediately taken to fatherhood.

The friend in the OP needs to have a sit down. It sounds like she's been accepting this behavior. Her dh, like any human, is doing what he's doing because he's getting away with it.

I dont think anyone is advocating divorce immediately w/o trying to recitify the situation. I believe these things need to be communicated before, during, and after the pregnancy. But if after the baby comes, the man continuously and willfully refuses to do his part, not help out, but do his part, then action needs to be taken.

I dont know if I'd divorce a guy, but as someone else said, it would be the last child we had and as long as I wasn't happy with the situation, please believe he wouldn't be either

 

[*5+5]

Ok, but that's not what I said. What I'm saying is that everyone in a relationship has expectations. I'm not talking about arguing here. I'm talking about giving someone a grace period to get their ish together, instead of saying "well, you suck at (sex/changing diapers/cooking/cleaning/budgeting/etc), so here are the papers. Have a good one!"

Just because a man doesn't change diapers at 3 months doesn't mean he won't be a great parent to his 4 year old. Circumstances change, people change, and I think it's only fair to give a person a chance to learn something that doesn't come naturally to them.

Oh I agree, that a man should be given a chance to correct any issue within' the relationship and I agree with the satement you made about it being counter-productive to go from some help to no help at all.

What I was thinking is that, I would have a problem with someone who ran all of those things along the same line with parenting. My bad sex or laziness with house chores fare far from his responsibility to our child.

I guess that's where I missed u. B/C for me, I don't see not being a hands on dad as an issue with the marriage, but an issue for me with that particular man.

I hope I'm still not confusing your point?

 

[JustKiya]

See, I'm honestly inclined to think that "fathers" like these are not good people in the first place. I could be wrong, but a good person, a decent human being, would not allow a child, especially their own child, to sit in its own filth or to cry incessantly without reacting. So no, I couldn't stay married to a man like that. I would have never married a man like that.

I mean, can a man do a complete 180 and become completely lazy and disinterested in his family once the baby is coming/born? Yeah, but those men are likely sociopaths, a la Scott Peterson.

Yeah, I think we are in agreement that a man like that - ain't a good person, deep down. I also suspect that most men like that are very good at concealing their 'issues' until their wife is 'tied' to them via a child.

Ya know, that's my issue!!! I think that men who neglect/ignore/whine about or resist taking care of their own children are just barely two steps to the righthand side of abusive. And while they might have 'matured' enough to control those tendencies with an adult - the children get the brunt of it.

Rather like a man who would leave a dog tied up outside in inclement weather - I can't really trust him with the care of an innocent.

 

[*5+5]

I think that men who neglect/ignore/whine about or resist taking care of their own children are just barely two steps to the righthand side of abusive.

Oh WOW

How so?

 

[JayAnn0513]

Justkiya you are on a roll today! Making some very good points.

 

[Southernbella.]

Oh I agree, that a man should be given a chance to correct any issue within' the relationship and I agree with the satement you made about it being counter-productive to go from some help to no help at all.

What I was thinking is that, I would have a problem with someone who ran all of those things along the same line with parenting. My bad sex or laziness with house chores fare far from his responsibility to our child.

I guess that's where I missed u. B/C for me, I don't see not being a hands on dad as an issue with the marriage, but an issue for me with that particular man.

I hope I'm still not confusing your point?

I see what you're saying.

I guess I don't equate things like changing diapers and getting up at night to parenting. It's what parents do, but I think actual parenting is far beyond that. So for that reason, I kinda do equate those specific acts with acts like cooking, cleaning, and sex. And if those were the only major issues we had, then no, I wouldn't get a divorce.

 

[exoticmommie]

Ok, but that's not what I said. What I'm saying is that everyone in a relationship has expectations. I'm not talking about arguing here. I'm talking about giving someone a grace period to get their ish together, instead of saying "well, you suck at (sex/changing diapers/cooking/cleaning/budgeting/etc), so here are the papers. Have a good one!"

Just because a man doesn't change diapers at 3 months doesn't mean he won't be a great parent to his 4 year old. Circumstances change, people change, and I think it's only fair to give a person a chance to learn something that doesn't come naturally to them.

You are right, people should give them a grace period. But I don't know any black woman that wouldn't give a warning first.
Don't be sucking your teeth at me when I ask you to HOLD your baby. That will give you a good talking to and a good threatening also.

 

[Skyfall]

I grew up with a dad just like this and yea my siblings and i had issues growing up. mine just recently resolved.

so we wouldn't even get married if he wasn't hands on.

 

[Southernbella.]

You are right, people should give them a grace period. But I don't know any black woman that wouldn't give a warning first.
Don't be sucking your teeth at me when I ask you to HOLD your baby. That will give you a good talking to and a good threatening also.

Yeah, I think this is foreign to me as a black woman.There would be much discontent in the house if he was pulling some mess like that. He'd be so sick of my mouth he'd probably divorce me.

 

[JustKiya]

Oh WOW

How so?

Just to be clear, the righthand side is the 'not abusive' side, and this is all shaped from my experiences of 'uninvolved fathers'.

I say that because anyone who can be cold hearted enough to allow a child to cry and not go to them and soothe them is missing a certain level of - empathy. Making someone else the 'other' and denying them the same level of 'personhood' as you is the first step in abuse.

I say that because I think that denying your partner your time, involvement, and commitment to raising the child that you had together - especially in the early months of a child's life - is dancing on the edge of emotional abuse towards your partner. The rate of occurrences of PPD is almost directly related to the level of support a new mother gets from her partner and support system.

I believe that anyone who allows any creature under their care to sit in their own filth for an extended period of time is physically abusive.

I'm mulling this over as I go along.......and I understand that their are some men who are 'scared' of 'breaking' newborns - and I give them a little slack. Slack to learn how to properly hold and carry and manipulate the child, not slack to back out of touching the kid until they can hold their own head up.

I'll be honest and say I haven't seen many examples of what I would consider to be 'good' fathers whose wives aren't up to HERE with nagging them into being so - and I see a lot more who are - in my mind - very suspect in the handling and care of their children and families.

ETA: Ah, yes! And as SouthernBella said above - these specific acts are just a small example of what being a parent is - but they are something that trends might be able to be determined from. Just like I'd never seriously date a man who never left a tip for a waitress, or who was rude to the support staff. Yeah, I might never be his waitress, but it's a hint - a clue - as to some deeper issues that WILL raise their head.

 

[gymfreak336]

OP do you know what type of conversations were had in regards to parenting and child rearing before she got pregnant?

 

[ladysaraii]

I see what you're saying.

I guess I don't equate things like changing diapers and getting up at night to parenting. It's what parents do, but I think actual parenting is far beyond that. So for that reason, I kinda do equate those specific acts with acts like cooking, cleaning, and sex. And if those were the only major issues we had, then no, I wouldn't get a divorce.

I kinda disagree. For an infant, diapers and late night feedings are actual parenting. It's not like it's at an age to be learning morals and character. And the differnce btwn that and cooking and cleaning for an adult is if I the wife, dont cook dinner, my husband can cook it himself or go buy something. A baby doesnt have that option and is dependent on its parents for care, which is why I think it's such an issue if the dad isn't involved

 

[*5+5]

OP do you know what type of conversations were had in regards to parenting and child rearing before she got pregnant?

I'm not really sure, but I recall and incident with my bestie where he wanted to leave her 8yr old niece home alone while she slept so that they could go out. I specifically remember then her telling me then they got into it and had somewhat of a conversation about her expectations for their child.

My cousin prolly assumed she had nothing to worry about (guessing here) b/c her SO had a son before their child that he was very hands on with. That's part of her problem with him, she feel as tho' he was being super dad with his 1st son and feels as tho' he doesn't pay their child much attention, he's 4 by the way.

 

[Summer_Rain]

I'm not really sure, but I recall and incident with my bestie where he wanted to leave her 8yr old niece home alone while she slept so that they could go out. I specifically remember then her telling me then they got into it and had somewhat of a conversation about her expectations for their child.

My cousin prolly assumed she had nothing to worry about (guessing here) b/c her SO had a son before their child that he was very hands on with. That's part of her problem with him, she feel as tho' he was being super dad with his 1st son and feels as tho' he doesn't pay their child much attention, he's 4 by the way.

How were his parent(s) with him as a child? Does she know? It goes back to my comment on the first page, that a man will be what he sees....even when it comes to parenting styles.

 

[Southernbella.]

I kinda disagree. For an infant, diapers and late night feedings are actual parenting. It's not like it's at an age to be learning morals and character. And the differnce btwn that and cooking and cleaning for an adult is if I the wife, dont cook dinner, my husband can cook it himself or go buy something. A baby doesnt have that option and is dependent on its parents for care, which is why I think it's such an issue if the dad isn't involved

I agree with you that those acts are part of parenting, but I think in the grand scheme of things, they aren't a huge part.

Let's face it...the mother needs more help than the baby in those early months. Most men know...if I don't do it, my wife will do it and the baby won't know the difference. Now, if they aren't bonding with the child at all, and won't even hold him, that's different.

That's just my humble opinion, though. My kids won't remember whether daddy changed their diaper or not (he did), but they will remember the hugs and kisses and stories and lectures and helping with homework.

JustKiya, to answer your earlier question, I think I'd give a man until the early toddler years. If I saw that he wanted no part of reading stories, discipline, showing affection, or spending quality time, then that would be a HUGE issue. We'd have to go to counseling.

ETA: I forgot about feedings. If the wife isn't breastfeeding, the father needs to be helping with that because bonding takes place during feeding.

 

[taz007]

My DH had 0 experience with kids. Before our kids, he NEVER changed a diaper/babysat/bottle fed, NADA. I still tease him about how when the twins were 1 day old, he used a DRY cloth to clean their little bottoms.

He took the time to learn and became a PRO within weeks. He was a hands on dad then and is a hands on dad now.

I would have had SERIOUS issue if he had been a hands off dad at any time.

I think a man does not have to be a perfect parent. My issue would be the "not even trying".

 

[JustKiya]

I agree with you that those acts are part of parenting, but I think in the grand scheme of things, they aren't a huge part.

Let's face it...the mother needs more help than the baby in those early months. Most men know...if I don't do it, my wife will do it and the baby won't know the difference. Now, if they aren't bonding with the child at all, and won't even hold him, that's different.

That's just my humble opinion, though. My kids won't remember whether daddy changed their diaper or not (he did), but they will remember the hugs and kisses and stories and lectures and helping with homework.

JustKiya, to answer your earlier question, I think I'd give a man until the early toddler years. If I saw that he wanted no part of reading stories, discipline, showing affection, or spending quality time, then that would be a HUGE issue. We'd have to go to counseling.

ETA: I forgot about feedings. If the wife isn't breastfeeding, the father needs to be helping with that because bonding takes place during feeding.

I can see that. Kid would definitely be a only til then, though, and we'd have a LOT of additional discussions on expectations when it comes to the early years of the next ones.

And you know, you make a good point about a lot of the early work being about supporting the mother - and I think that's another reason I give a lot a men a serious side-eye when it comes to the infant years. I can't respect a man who leaves his woman hanging, you know? Though, in the same token, a lot of women are reallly invested in being mother all alone, and put up a facade that they 'got this' - no matter how far from the truth it is.

And, I'm lightweight paranoid about the amount of pure WORK goes into parenting - and if I'm steady salty at my partner because he believes that it's a 90/10 kinda deal - that's not a healthy environment for a child, period, nor is it a healthy modeling of relationship behaviors, and it's not going to be healthy for me, either. Resentment, bitterness, anger, frustration - - doesn't sound like anything I want in my relationship.

DH has already been told that I'm going to be a bit of a *itch in the early weeks of life, because I have VERY high expectations of him.

 

[*5+5]

How were his parent(s) with him as a child? Does she know? It goes back to my comment on the first page, that a man will be what he sees....even when it comes to parenting styles.

I know they are both very family oriented men, who are momma boys, esp. the one that has a child already. I'm not sure what their relationship were/are like with their fathers. Good question.

 

[Southernbella.]

I can see that. Kid would definitely be a only til then, though, and we'd have a LOT of additional discussions on expectations when it comes to the early years of the next ones.

And you know, you make a good point about a lot of the early work being about supporting the mother - and I think that's another reason I give a lot a men a serious side-eye when it comes to the infant years. I can't respect a man who leaves his woman hanging, you know? Though, in the same token, a lot of women are reallly invested in being mother all alone, and put up a facade that they 'got this' - no matter how far from the truth it is.

And, I'm lightweight paranoid about the amount of pure WORK goes into parenting - and if I'm steady salty at my partner because he believes that it's a 90/10 kinda deal - that's not a healthy environment for a child, period, nor is it a healthy modeling of relationship behaviors, and it's not going to be healthy for me, either. Resentment, bitterness, anger, frustration - - doesn't sound like anything I want in my relationship.

DH has already been told that I'm going to be a bit of a *itch in the early weeks of life, because I have VERY high expectations of him.

RE the bolded: I think that's what this entire conversation is about, honestly. I don't work, and I breastfed, so I happily did more of the "work". My dh helped as much as he could (like get up and bring the babies to me for a feeding, even though he could have stayed asleep), but it mostly fell on me.

If it was really all about the baby, people would take issue with the fact that the baby spent more time with me, but nobody will because it's more about the mother and what she needs.

So yeah, I don't agree with all this divorce talk. Every OOW thread on this board has some stats about how children with two parents, even if one is sucky, do better than children with only one parent. Every cheating thread has several women for whom cheating isn't a dealbreaker. Cheating vs. diapers, cheating vs. diapers...hmmmmm...

If he's otherwise a good man but he won't change diapers or "babysit" his kids, get your black woman on and handle your business. If he's not a good man and his disinterest in parenting is just an extension of his general suckiness as a man, well, that's on you because you chose him. Again, get your black woman on and handle your business. If you've exhausted every possibility and he still won't change, then do what you gotta do, because at that point, it's not about diapers anyway.

 

[DMJ's Mom]

If DH was totally hands off after telling me that he wanted kids I'd leave him so fast! To tell me to carry our son out the room because he's getting annoyed I'd probably knock the H*** out of him

 

[IrrationalThoughts]

I think that if he's all excited about having the baby and then realizes that the kid is alot of work, and then decides to dump the responsibility on me, the mother, then that is grounds for divorce, esp. if I'm a working mom. Marriage is a partnership, and I'm not picking up the slack for someone who can't be bothered.



WTH? Did he always have murderous tendencies? Did that come up out of the blue?
Is he in psychiatric? Jail? What happened?

He was a punk before they got married, we all thought he was too 'weak' to hurt any one. He claims he was depressed, and then upset that she was spendig too much time with the baby and was jealous. He was in the air force so he is in their military jail. We are waiting for him to come back to MA.

 

[chocolat79]

I watched a documentary on the BBC one time and they did a study in which there were 10 men and 10 babies in cribs. Each of the men had to change the baby (a lot of these babies were crying too). So after the men changed the baby, 9 out of 10 of the men, just kinda stood there like "Uh, I'm finished, what do I do now?" They had no further intereaction with the babies, EXCEPT one man who picked the baby up after changing him/her. We know most women would have instinctively picked up the babies after changing them. The study basically showed that most men are not naturally nurturing. That being said, most men don't know what to do/expect and if you expect nothing, you get nothing. Those men would have had to be told to pick up the baby. From a female perspective, that sounds pathetic, but men are not wired the same. So, sometimes you gotta cut the guy some slack and TELL HIM what you expect and let him do it.

 

[Mortons]

I watched a documentary on the BBC one time and they did a study in which there were 10 men and 10 babies in cribs. Each of the men had to change the baby (a lot of these babies were crying too). So after the men changed the baby, 9 out of 10 of the men, just kinda stood there like "Uh, I'm finished, what do I do now?" They had no further intereaction with the babies, EXCEPT one man who picked the baby up after changing him/her. We know most women would have instinctively picked up the babies after changing them. The study basically showed that most men are not naturally nurturing. That being said, most men don't know what to do/expect and if you expect nothing, you get nothing. Those men would have had to be told to pick up the baby. From a female perspective, that sounds pathetic, but men are not wired the same. So, sometimes you gotta cut the guy some slack and TELL HIM what you expect and let him do it.

If the babies are strange babies and depending on the age of the men, I would kinda expect some distance.

Some women are not naturally nurturing or naturally motherly. However, they don't get cut slack and are expected to turn it on instantly. If the mother has to step up, the father should too, even in infancy.

 

[ladysaraii]

If the babies are strange babies and depending on the age of the men, I would kinda expect some distance.

Some women are not naturally nurturing or naturally motherly. However, they don't get cut slack and are expected to turn it on instantly. If the mother has to step up, the father should too, even in infancy.

Preach!!!


*&%^% 10CM

 

[Southernbella.]

Well, my dh agrees with yall. Vehemently.

 

[Farida]

Many new fathers just balk at the sight of the child. For some it is really a matter of the woman laying down the law and the man picking up the reins.

Now, as for the OP, assuming he just doesn't help with diapers, etc... but in all other respects lets you stay home, pays all the bills, takes out the trash etc? Would she still leave him?

 

[rafikichick92]

Um, I don't know that I would divorce him, but we would be having some serious talks, lol. My dad is/was not hands on at all, and I refuse for that to be the case with my husband.

My motto is my husband will not be "the third child"! (Think all he has to do is work and come home for me to take care of him, cook his meals, take care of the kids, clean the house, etc.). Huh uh! And we will be discussing this before marriage.

He is going to agree to be a full partner, and if/when he slacks, I will remind him what he agreed to. If he's got any character at all (which I will make sure he does) then he will pitch in and help. I saw my mother go through too much to accept anything less.