Historical Proof for Sabbath Day Change

[discobiscuits]

This is a YT video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yH8520YG-gI

It lays out the historical proof that the Sabbath was changed by man from Saturday to Sunday.

We already have threads that show by scripture the Sabbath.

What say you?

 

[Prudent1]

I think there is a lot of evidence to support this. I don't think it will make me change the day that I observe the Sabbath on.:scratchch IMHO I think there are so many other things that are of importance to the heart of God like how we treat other ppl and what we do on a daily basis in our homes and at work. Don't misunderstand me the sabbath is holy just like the tithe. I try to observe the sabbath as holy. If my pastor announced God instructed him to observe the sabbath on another day and I prayed and got confirmation then I would change immediately! I just don't know if we, the body of Christ, will ever be able to come to consensus on this issue. I know that God absolutely knows our hearts. For the record, I think you are correct on your findings though.

 

[GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I]

http://www.catholic.com/library/Sabbath_or_Sunday.asp

The first creation, rest on the Sabbath, the second, the Resurrection on Sunday. It was practiced in the very earliest "church," long before Constantine decreed it into law in 321 AD.

Athanasius


"The Sabbath was the end of the first creation, the Lord’s day was the beginning of the second, in which he renewed and restored the old in the same way as he prescribed that they should formerly observe the Sabbath as a memorial of the end of the first things, so we honor the Lord’s day as being the memorial of the new creation" (On Sabbath and Circumcision 3 [A.D. 345]).

The Letter of Barnabas


"We keep the eighth day [Sunday] with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead" (Letter of Barnabas 15:6–8 [A.D. 74]).



Ignatius of Antioch


"[T]hose who were brought up in the ancient order of things [i.e. Jews] have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s day, on which also our life has sprung up again by him and by his death" (Letter to the Magnesians 8 [A.D. 110]).

 

[Sharpened]

Jesus kept the Sabbath when he waited to rise on Sunday. That is all the confirmation I needed to keep the Fourth Commandment. I only regret not knowing sooner.

 

[momi]

Both of the arguments for Saturday and Sunday are pretty compelling.

I think I need to fast and pray about this. This guy has some really interesting videos.

 

[divya]

The Scriptures tell us the seventh day is the Sabbath and that we ought to keep it holy. As the man stated, Sunday worship is not biblical. It is man-made tradition.

 

[divya]

Catholic clergy have long affirmed that Catholicism is responsible for Sunday-worship and that it is not biblical:


1. “For example, nowhere in the Bible do we find that Christ or the Apostles ordered that the Sabbath be changed from Saturday to Sunday. We have the commandment of God given to Moses to keep holy the Sabbath day, that is the 7th day of the week, Saturday. Today most Christians keep Sunday because it has been revealed to us by the [Roman Catholic] church outside the Bible.” Catholic Virginian, October 3, 1947, p. 9, article “To Tell You the Truth.”


2. “Question: How prove you that the church had power to command feasts and holydays?
“Answer: By the very act of changing the Sabbath into Sunday, which Protestants allow of and therefore they fondly contradict themselves by keeping Sunday strictly, and breaking most other feasts commanded by the same church.

“Question: Have you any other way of proving that the church has power to institute festivals of precept?
“Answer: Had she not such power, she could not a done that in which all modern religionists agree with her; -she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the seventh day of the week, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority.” Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism On the Obedience Due to the Church, 3rd edition, Chapter 2, p. 174 (Imprimatur, John Cardinal McCloskey, Archbishop of New York)


3. “Perhaps the boldest thing, the most revolutionary change the Church ever did, happened in the first century. The holy day, the Sabbath, was changed from Saturday to Sunday. ‘The day of the Lord’ was chosen, not from any direction noted in the Scriptures, but from the (Catholic) Church’s sense of its own power...People who think that the Scriptures should be the sole authority, should logically become 7th Day Adventists, and keep Saturday holy.” St. Catherine Church Sentinel, Algonac, Michigan, May 21, 1995.


4. “Nowhere in the Bible is it stated that worship should be changed from Saturday to Sunday...Now the Church...instituted, by God’s authority, Sunday as the day of worship. This same Church, by the same divine authority, taught the doctrine of Purgatory long before the Bible was made. We have, therefore, the same authority for Purgatory as we have for Sunday.” Martin J. Scott, Things Catholics Are Asked About, 1927 edition, p. 136.


5. “Question - Which is the Sabbath day?
“Answer - Saturday is the Sabbath day.
“Question - Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
“Answer - We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church, in the Council of Laodicea (A.D. 364), transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.” Peter Geiermann, C.S.S.R., The Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, p. 50, 3rd edition, 1957


6. “Some theologians have held that God likewise directly determined the Sunday as the day of worship in the New Law, that He Himself has explicitly substituted the Sunday for the Sabbath. But this theory is now entirely abandoned. It is now commonly held that God simply gave His Church the power to set aside whatever day or days she would deem suitable as Holy Days. The (Roman Catholic) Church chose Sunday, the first day of the week, and in the course of time added other days as holy days.” John Laux, A Course in Religion for Catholic High Schools and Academies, 1936 edition, vol. 1, p. 51.


7. “St John speaks of the Lord’s day (Rev 1:10) but he does not tell us what day of the week that was, much less does he tell us what day was to take the place of the Sabbath ordained in the commandments. St.Luke speaks of the disciples meeting together to break bread on the first day of the week. Acts 20:7. And St. Paul (1 Cor.16:2) orders that on the first day of the week the Corinthians should lay in store what they designated to bestow in charity on the faithful in Judea: but neither the one or the other tells us that this first day of the week was to be henceforth a day of worship, and the Christian Sabbath; so that truly the best authority we have for this ancient custom is the testimony of the church. And therefore those who pretend to be such religious observers of Sunday, whilst they take no notice of other festivals ordained by the same church authority, show that they act more by humor, than by religion; since Sundays and holidays all stand upon the same foundation, namely the ordinance of the (Roman Catholic) church.” Catholic Christian Instructed, 17th edition, p. 272-273.


8. “Protestantism, in discarding the authority of the (Roman Catholic) Church, has no good reasons for its Sunday theory, and ought logically to keep Saturday as the Sabbath.” John Gilmary Shea, American Catholic Quarterly Review, January 1883.


9. “The Catholic church for over one thousand years before the existence of a Protestant, by virtue of her divine mission, changed the day from Saturday to Sunday...The Protestant World at its birth found the Christian Sabbath too strongly entrenched to run counter to its existence; it was therefore placed under the necessity of acquiescing in the arrangement, thus implying the (Catholic) Church’s right to change the day, for over three hundred years. The Christian Sabbath is therefore to this day, the acknowledged offspring of the Catholic Church as spouse of the Holy Ghost, without a word of remonstrance from the Protestant World.” James Cardinal Gibbons in the Catholic Mirror, September 23, 1983.

http://www.godssabbathtruth.com/catholicchurchchangedsabbathsunday.html

 

[blazingthru]

Jesus kept the Sabbath when he waited to rise on Sunday. That is all the confirmation I needed to keep the Fourth Commandment. I only regret not knowing sooner.

I felt the same thing but now is our time. Right now is the perfect time for us and I have accepted that. I am moving things around in my church because I want to love all people and I don't know if this would have been me a year ago. You know. Gods time is the perfect time. He found me at the right time in my life. hallueiah, Thank you Jesus.

 

[momi]

The Scriptures tell us the seventh day is the Sabbath and that we ought to keep it holy. As the man stated, Sunday worship is not biblical. It is man-made tradition.

Im confused. erplexed

I thought Sunday worship began because Jesus rose on Sunday and the New Testament church gathered together on this day to honor this.

Acts 20:7 (King James Version)

7And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

Romans 14:5

5One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

6He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

 

[JinaRicci]

Thank you for posting this 1star. It's very important for us to see the historical evidence for the change which is consistent with what scripture tells us about the Sabbath day.

I can understand how hard it would be for someone who has worshipped on Sunday all their life to accept this especially since this is what most of the world does. It might sound crazy and look crazy to keep the seventh day when there are so many reasons that are put forth for Sunday worship. Still, no matter the reason- Christ rising on Sunday, the laws being abolished, the history record stands as evidence of what really happened.

When all is said and done, the question is how important is this to God?

The only way to truly answer this question is to pray, ask God & search the scriptures. Remember that God doesn't want to keep us from anything good. He will reveal- we need to be willing to hear His voice. I know some are struggling with this- it's a tough one & I pray that God will continue to guide you.

 

[rafikichick92]

Thank you for posting this 1star. It's very important for us to see the historical evidence for the change which is consistent with what scripture tells us about the Sabbath day.

I can understand how hard it would be for someone who has worshipped on Sunday all their life to accept this especially since this is what most of the world does. It might sound crazy and look crazy to keep the seventh day when there are so many reasons that are put forth for Sunday worship. Still, no matter the reason- Christ rising on Sunday, the laws being abolished, the history record stands as evidence of what really happened.

When all is said and done, the question is how important is this to God?

The only way to truly answer this question is to pray, ask God & search the scriptures. Remember that God doesn't want to keep us from anything good. He will reveal- we need to be willing to hear His voice. I know some are struggling with this- it's a tough one & I pray that God will continue to guide you.

This is what I always ask myself when it comes to issues like this--is it important to God that we get it 100% right. I think the answer is yes and no. Obviously, God wants us to know the truth and to act on it, and I think He will guide us in the discovery of this truth if we ask/trust Him and generally behave like wise, sensible people. I don't think, however, that if we're not exactly sure about what is true or if we're genuinely misinformed that He is going to be angry with us.

What I always wonder is how does this apply to the parts of the world (like South America) where Monday is considered the first day of the week and Sunday is considered the last? Would Saturday still be considered the Sabbath there?

 

[JinaRicci]

Im confused. erplexed

I thought Sunday worship began because Jesus rose on Sunday and the New Testament church gathered together on this day to honor this.

Acts 20:7 (King James Version)

7And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

Romans 14:5

5One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

6He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

Remember how specific God was about the Sabbath- what day it is, how to worship, what to do/what not to do? (Exodus 20:8) If He had changed the Sabbath, wouldn't He have been just as specific?

For me using these texts to justify the change to Sunday is confusing because throughout the Bible the importance of the seventh day Sabbath is noted. Notice in Acts they are talking about gathering on the 1st day but it doesn't indicate that it is the Sabbath.

Then the question is why would God change the Sabbath to Sunday in honor of Christ's resurrection? When would have that first happened? Jesus stayed in the tomb to keep the Sabbath and rose on Sunday. Was that Sunday also kept as the Sabbath?

We also need to look at the significance of the Sabbath. It is a sign, a remembrance of creation week. Because He rested on the seventh day after 6 days of creating the earth, and sanctified it, we rest too as a sign that we recognize Him as our creator (Genesis 2: 1-3).

God is still our creator- that hasn't changed. Why would the sign- the Sabbath change?

 

[JinaRicci]

This is what I always ask myself when it comes to issues like this--is it important to God that we get it 100% right. I think the answer is yes and no. Obviously, God wants us to know the truth and to act on it, and I think He will guide us in the discovery of this truth if we ask/trust Him and generally behave like wise, sensible people. I don't think, however, that if we're not exactly sure about what is true or if we're genuinely misinformed that He is going to be angry with us.

What I always wonder is how does this apply to the parts of the world (like South America) where Monday is considered the first day of the week and Sunday is considered the last? Would Saturday still be considered the Sabbath there?

Yes- The Sabbath is observed on Saturday around the world. The biblical week predates any man-made calendar and calendar change. In South America the word Saturday is 'Sabado' in both Spanish and Portuguese. Even the language is consistent with the biblical week...

No- God is not going to be angry with us for being misinformed. He holds us accountable for what we know. You're right- the Holy Spirit has to be the One leading us into all truth. At the same time, we can't decide that we won't be informed and cut off the Holy Spirit from revealing truth to us.

Is it important to God that we get it 100% right?

Well, first off we can't speak for God. When we think about everything else- not lying, stealing, coveting, killing- is it important to God that we get it 100% right? What does He say about the Sabbath?

 

[blazingthru]

I thought Sunday worship began because Jesus rose on Sunday and the New Testament church gathered together on this day to honor this.

Acts 20:7 (King James Version)

7And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight

This is a interesting passage, Why was this included? Paul was leaving that day so he spoke all night. but the point of the story is no one wanted to leave. they stayed all night to hear him, who knows if they would ever see him again. it got so late that one person fell out the window it wasn't the day that was important. it was the desire to hear the message all day and all night if possible. As Christians they met everyday. They worshipped everyday. we can worship everyday but the Sabbath is a holy day. We obey Gods commandments.

Acts 20:7
As Paul spoke on and on, a young man named Eutychus, sitting on the windowsill, became very drowsy. Finally, he fell sound asleep and dropped three stories to his death below. 10 Paul went down, bent over him, and took him into his arms. “Don’t worry,” he said, “he’s alive!” 11 Then they all went back upstairs, shared in the Lord’s Supper,[d] and ate together. Paul continued talking to them until dawn, and then he left. 12 Meanwhile, the young man was taken home unhurt, and everyone was greatly relieved.


44 And all the believers met together in one place and shared everything they had. 45 They sold their property and possessions and shared the money with those in need. 46 They worshiped together at the Temple each day, met in homes for the Lord’s Supper, and shared their meals with great joy and generosity[j]—47 all the while praising God and enjoying the goodwill of all the people. And each day the Lord added to their fellowship those who were being saved.

 

[Sharpened]

Acts 20:7 (King James Version)

7And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

Romans 14:5

5One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

6He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

When I read those, it tells me that we can break bread and commune on any day, not about the Sabbath. Paul and the other apostles were on the go, so they had to do that. The Sabbath is merely the day of rest.

 

[blazingthru]

For me the Sabbath is not just a day of rest. The Sabbath is a holy Day. We spend out time with the Lord. We think on wonderful things that God has provided for us. For me. Its a day that I dont' think of nothing else but what God has done for me and what he is doing for me and what he going to do for me and others. I spend time in prayer in fellowshipping and learning. I visit those who cannot make it out, I pray with them. I sing with them and read scripture. I have a meal with others. I don't cook, I don't buy anything. I don't sell anything and I don't work for myself, I work for others. I serve others and it gives me great pleasure. I get so excited about the Sabbath. I love service, I am so excited when the message is starting because I know its going to blow me away. I get so excited about eating because I have the opportunity to serve someone and get to know someone and share how I got there and I get to hear how they got there and its so wonderful. Its been an extra blessing that so far everyone loves my cooking. thats is truly a blessing. I never cook and now I cook every friday for Sabbath and I got the elders looking forward to it and you know thats good. I make enough to feed thirty people and that is encouraging others to do the same. I would like more people to stay and attend Bible Study and share their lives. I think that brings healing to some and that open up door for others and now our bible Study had grown. So now I see why its important to honor the sabbath, you can touch so many lives, especially since you put your life on the back burner. Old days I go to service and go right to the market and go home and cook and my mind never got a rest from the stress I went through all week. Even if I didn't go to the market I still went home and made Sunday dinner and I was tired and then I made dessert and right after Dinner I would clean up and mop the floor and so forth and then serve the desert and then clean up and watch the Sunday night movies or whatever and go to bed before I got a chance to clear my mind I am at work. Not anymore, thats over

 

[rafikichick92]

Yes- The Sabbath is observed on Saturday around the world. The biblical week predates any man-made calendar and calendar change. In South America the word Saturday is 'Sabado' in both Spanish and Portuguese. Even the language is consistent with the biblical week...

No- God is not going to be angry with us for being misinformed. He holds us accountable for what we know. You're right- the Holy Spirit has to be the One leading us into all truth. At the same time, we can't decide that we won't be informed and cut off the Holy Spirit from revealing truth to us.

Is it important to God that we get it 100% right?

Well, first off we can't speak for God. When we think about everything else- not lying, stealing, coveting, killing- is it important to God that we get it 100% right? What does He say about the Sabbath?

@ the first part -- thanks. That's what I'm thinking that it has to do with man-made calendar changes, but my larger point is, can we trace back and see these calendar changes and match the current day name to the ancient day one, or should it even matter? You brought up a good example of this--the Spanish/Portuguese name for Saturday, Sabado, which means Sabbath (according to my Spanish language Bible). Does anyone know of any others?

2nd paragraph -- Thanks wasn't enough--my point exactly.

3rd paragraph -- What I'm saying is that God wants us to try to get everything He says to do 100% right. And obviously He tells us to keep the Sabbath and expects us to do that 100% as He says to.

What I was trying to get at was that to me (again, to me) it's not in God's character (what I know of it from reading the Bible) to condemn us if we did not know that the Sabbath was actually on Saturday and we did keep it, only we did it on Sunday because we didn't know any better, as many people do not. Technically in this situation (which is a plausible one, I think), a person is not obeying God 100% correctly, but they genuinely don't know this. I don't think a loving, merciful God would be angry at a person for that.

Again, as a firm believer in Proverbs 30:5-6, I'm not trying to speak for God at all. Just stating things as I understand them at this point.

 

[GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I]

.............never mind...it's obvious, really.

No, on second thought...

The authority rests with the Church, not singularly with the Catholic Virginian nor any other individual member or clergy. There is a hierarchy and a Magisterium of teaching. Take in mind the "judaizers" in the days of the New Church. They were teaching that gentiles had to convert fully to Judaism first to become christians.

Catholic means "universal" and all churches hail from the church..."universal" that Christ founded. They are not pulling the New Sabbath out of a hat. It's documented in the New Testament.

Disclaimer: Any points I send in reflect the church I belong to, just as any other member in this CF. There is no attempt to proselytize nor to accuse other denominations of "not having the truth." If there is something in an argument I wish to inject, I'll do it to present that particular variable. We can certainly discuss and present info and sides without attempting to discredit other faiths.

 

[rafikichick92]

.............never mind...it's obvious, really.

No, on second thought...

The authority rests with the Church, not singularly with the Catholic Virginian nor any other individual member or clergy. There is a hierarchy and a Magisterium of teaching. Take in mind the "judaizers" in the days of the New Church. They were teaching that gentiles had to convert fully to Judaism first to become christians.

Catholic means "universal" and all churches hail from the church..."universal" that Christ founded. They are not pulling the New Sabbath out of a hat. It's documented in the New Testament.

Disclaimer: Any points I send in reflect the church I belong to, just as any other member in this CF. There is no attempt to proselytize nor to accuse other denominations of "not having the truth." If there is something in an argument I wish to inject, I'll do it to present that particular variable. We can certainly discuss and present info and sides without attempting to discredit other faiths.

Do you mind my asking for specific verses?

 

[Pooks]

When doing your best to observe the other 9 commandments, I don't understand why some reject the commandment of keeping the Sabbath which God specifically said to Remember

Exodus 20:8-11:

Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

 

[GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I]

Do you mind my asking for specific verses?

Acts 20:7 "And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight."

That refers to the Eucharist. The first day of the week is Sunday, even in Judaism. As it was explained to me, it's important to remember that the Sabbath commandment contains 2 elements, primary and secondary, where the first concerns Jew and gentile setting up a time to worship G-d and the second concerning the ceremonial aspects which were abolished by Christ's death. He's the L-rd of the Sabbath as the Messiah, no? (Mk 2:28).This is why the early Church transferred it to Sunday, to reflect the L-rd's Resurrection.

Colossians 2: 2-17


12having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.
13When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature,[a] God made you[b] alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.[c]
16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

When Jesus rebuked the Pharisees for going above the spirit of the Sabbath (essentially, setting aside that day and communing spiritually with G-d), He was showing them that the Sabbath meets the need of man.

Lord of the Sabbath

23One Sabbath Jesus was going through the grainfields, and as his disciples walked along, they began to pick some heads of grain. 24The Pharisees said to him, "Look, why are they doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?" 25He answered, "Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need? 26In the days of Abiathar the high priest, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions."
27Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.

This from a forum citing scriptures on the authority of the Church as given by Christ:

(Mt 16:18–19, 18:17–18, Lk 10:16) and of God’s guarantee that this teaching would never fall into error (Mt 28:19–20, Lk 22:32, Jn 16:13), there is an impressive amount of evidence from Scripture that Christ and the apostles changed their day of corporate worship from Saturday to Sunday.

http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/quickquestions/?qid=1244


For the general discussion and not aimed at you Rafikichick,...


So, when I give an answer, I am only representing that which was taught to me on how, why and with what authority is it true. I will reiterate that that's what I think we all should do - identify where we get our teachings and it'll lend to more respect between us all. It will also help us to identify which sects believe xyz and which do not. Learning about each other shows our mutual respect. I cannot give a protestant answer as I am not qualified and will stick to my current traditions or my past ones in which I was involved as respectful.

In other words, I'm not saying Protestants are wrong for worshipping on Saturday. But I do know why Sunday became that day of rest and worship and it was the first century Church which recognized it and practiced it according to scripture. I also know that the Sabbath is for Jews. Protestant christians and Catholics, Orthodox...are not Jews. The Sabbath is still in effect for Jews. In Exodus, it's speaking to Jews. And according to what I was also taught in my Judaism days, the Sabbath must not be practiced by gentiles in the Jewish opinion...the Jewish Sabbath on Saturday. Of course, it's more involved than just worshipping on Saturday...it involves the bruchot or blessings and prayers, candle lighting etc.

Disclaimer: Again, this is what I was taught. I am not directing ANYONE on what to do, neither am I attempting to slyly discredit anyone's faith on here. People will continue to follow their own traditions. When we ask a question, we give the answers according to our traditions. I do not proselytize and I do not accept that anyone would attempt to proselytize me...either publicly in this forum or privately in a PM. I do not accept.

(Not in any way directed at RafikiChick who asked respectfully.)

 

[blazingthru]

@
What I was trying to get at was that to me (again, to me) it's not in God's character (what I know of it from reading the Bible) to condemn us if we did not know that the Sabbath was actually on Saturday and we did keep it, only we did it on Sunday because we didn't know any better, as many people do not. Technically in this situation (which is a plausible one, I think), a person is not obeying God 100% correctly, but they genuinely don't know this. I don't think a loving, merciful God would be angry at a person for that.

Again, as a firm believer in Proverbs 30:5-6, I'm not trying to speak for God at all. Just stating things as I understand them at this point.

you are correct, God is not going to condemn those who did not know any better, But those who know but refuse to accept yes. Those who hear but refuse to research yes, Those who make fun of it and dismiss it out of hand yes. Yes, I always get in trouble here. So please forgive me if this post gets locked. I am not trying to do that. I believe that is why God says when you seek him with your full heart you will find him. God knows our hearts and how we think and why we make the decisions we do. When I heard about the sabbath in 2004, I could not accept it. It was to hard and I didn't know where to turn to find the answers. I went to the pastors - several and they gave me scriptures but I knew in my heart that something wasn't right, but I didn't want to changed my life around so I believed them and walked away from the sabbath when I heard it again five years later, I had to sit down and research it out completely and I did and when I finished it was settled in my spirit that we are to honor the sabbath and when I did my entire life changed.

 

[blazingthru]

Not Under the Law?
Often we hear this argument in an effort to belittle the law of God: "Well, since we are not under the law but under grace, we do not need to keep the Ten Commandments any longer." Is this a valid point? The Bible certainly does say that we are not under the law, but does that imply that we are free from the obligation to obey it? The text is found in Romans 6:14, 15. "For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid."

How easily we could prevent confusion if we accepted exactly what the Bible says. Paul gives his own explanation of his statement. After stating that we are not under the law but under grace, he asks, "What then?" This simply means, "How are we to understand this?" Then notice his answer. In anticipation that some will construe his words to mean that you can break the law because you are under grace, he says, "Shall we sin (break the law) because we are not under the law but under grace? God forbid." In the strongest possible language Paul states that being under grace does not give a license to break the law. Yet this is exactly what millions believe today, and they totally ignore Paul's specific warning.

If being under grace does not exempt us from keeping the law, then what does Paul mean by saying that Christians are not under the law? He gives that answer in Romans 3:19. "Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God." Here Paul equates being under the law with "being guilty before God." In other words, those who are under the law are guilty of breaking it and are under the condemnation of it. This is why Christians are not under it. They are not breaking it - not guilty and condemned by it. Therefore, they are not under it, but are under the power of grace instead. Later in his argument, Paul points out that the power of grace is greater than the power of sin. This is why he states so emphatically, "For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace." Grace overrules the authority of sin, giving power to obey God's law. This is the effective reason that we are not under the law's guilt and condemnation and also why Paul states that we will not continue to sin.

Suppose a murderer has been sentenced to death in the electric chair. Waiting for the execution the man would truly be under the law in every sense of the word - under the guilt, under the condemnation, under the sentence of death, etc. Just before the execution date the governor reviews the condemned man's case and decides to pardon him. In the light of extenuating circumstances the governor exercises his prerogative and sends a full pardon to the prisoner. Now he is no longer under the law but under grace. The law no longer condemns him. He is considered totally justified as far as the charges of the law are concerned. He is free to walk out of the prison and not a policeman can lay hands upon him. But now that he is under grace and no longer under the law, can we say that he is free to break the law? Indeed not! In fact, that pardoned man will be doubly obligated to obey the law because he has found grace from the governor. In gratitude and love he will be very careful to honor the law of that state which granted him grace. Is that what the Bible says about pardoned sinners? "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law." Romans 3:31. Here is the most explicit answer to the entire problem. Paul asks if the law is nullified for us just because we have had faith in Christ's saving grace. His answer is that the law is established and reenforced in the life of a grace-saved Christian.

The truth of this is so simple and obvious that it should require no repetition, but the devious reasoning of those who try to avoid obedience makes it necessary to press this point a bit further. Have you ever been stopped by a policeman for exceeding the speed limit? It is an embarrassing experience, especially if you know you are guilty. But suppose you really were hurrying to meet a valid emergency, and you pour out your convincing explanation to the policeman as he writes your ticket. Slowly he folds the ticket and tears it up. Then he says, "All right, I'm going to pardon you this time, but ..." Now what do you think he means by that word "but"? Surely he means, "but I don't want to ever catch you speeding again." Does this pardon (grace) open the way for you to disobey the law? On the contrary, it adds compelling urgency to your decision not to disobey the law again. Why, then, should any true Christian try to rationalize his way out of obeying the law of God? "If ye love me," Jesus said, "keep my commandments." John 14:15.

 

[GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I]

The truth of this is so simple and obvious that it should require no repetition, but the devious reasoning of those who try to avoid obedience makes it necessary to press this point a bit further.,,, "If ye love me," Jesus said, "keep my commandments." John 14:15.

You're not Jewish, right?. Correct me if I'm wrong. I believe that command precisely to the Jews:

Just for the sake of the discussion since the Sabbath laws were cited, I thought this would be appropriate. If you're going to have Judaism, have all of it. This is from that point of view:


The Sabbath Observing Gentile: Halakhic, Hashkafic and Liturgical Perspectives Elchanan Adler

While the notion of commemorating the divine rest associatedwith primordial creation would seem to bear universalimport, it is surely no coincidence that the mitspa of Shabbat was assigned solely to Am Yisrael and not to Benei Noah.' Moreover, not only is a gentile absolved of the obligation to observe Shabbat, he is actually enjoined from doing so. Hence, the talmudic dictum: "Goy she-shavat hayav mita"—"a gentile who rests [on the Sabbath] incurs the death penalty" (Sanhedrin 58b). That the mitsva of Shabbat, in particular, should be perceived in uniquely Jewish terms is evident from its designation as an ot—a sign—between HaKadosh Barukh Hu and Benei Yisrael, as highlighted in Parashat Ki Tisa: "Ki ot hi beni u-venekhem ledoro-tekhem. . . . Beni u-ven Benei Yisrael ot hi le-olam" (Exodus 31:13, 17).


Yet another disclaimer: This is solely for the sake of discussion. I'm not going to pretend to have authority myself. These are points I have questions about so, until all those points are explained and exhausted, I'll still have counterpoints in search of the answer.

 

[divya]

Reasons Why The Sabbath Was Not Just For the Jews


1) Adam and Eve were not Jewish. "God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it" (Genesis 2:3) before sin entered. "Sanctified" means "to be set apart for holy use." The only ones in the Garden of Eden for whom the Sabbath was “set apart” were Adam and Eve, who weren’t Jewish.

2) "The Sabbath was made for man." Mark 2:27. Jesus said this. It was "made" in the Garden of Eden before it was "written" down on Mount Sinai. The Sabbath was "made" for "man," not just Jews.

3) The other nine commandments are not "just for Jews." God wrote "Ten Commandments" on stone, not just nine (See Deut. 4:12, 13; Ex. 20). Does “Do not commit adultery,”“Do not murder,”“Do not steal,” and “Do not bear false witness” apply "only to Jews"?

4) "The seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God." Exodus 20:10. God calls the Sabbath, "my holy day." Isaiah 58:13. The Bible never calls it "the Sabbath of the Jews." It isn’t their Sabbath, but God's.

5) The Sabbath commandment is for the "stranger" too. The fourth commandment itself says the "stranger" is to rest on the Sabbath. Exodus 20:10.“Strangers” are non-Jews, or Gentiles. Thus the Sabbath applies to them too. Read also Isaiah 56:6.

6) Isaiah said Gentiles should keep the Sabbath. "Also the sons of the stranger ... every one that keeps the Sabbath ... for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people." Isaiah 56:6, 7. Thus the Sabbath is for Gentiles and “all people,” not just for Jews.

7) "All" mankind will keep the Sabbath in the New Earth. In "the new earth ... from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, says the Lord." Isaiah 66:22, 23. Here God says that “all flesh” will be keeping the Sabbath in “the new earth.” If this is the case – and it is – shouldn’t we start now?

8) Gentiles kept the Sabbath in the Book of Acts. "The Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath ... Paul and Barnabas ... persuaded them to continue in the grace of God."' Acts 13:42, 43. Here saved-by-grace Gentiles kept the Sabbath (see also verse 44).

9) "The law" [of Ten Commandments] is for "all the world," not just for Jews. Paul wrote these words. Read Romans 2:17-23; 3:19, 23.

10) Luke was a Gentile who kept the Sabbath. Luke was the only Gentile who wrote any New Testament books (he wrote The Gospel According to St. Luke and The Acts of the Apostles). Luke traveled with Paul and wrote, "On the Sabbath we went out of the city by a river side." Acts 16:13. It was the seventh-day Sabbath, the memorial of the creation (see Ex. 20:11). Both Luke and Paul knew it....

 

[divya]

Why we should observe the Seventh-Day Sabbath (Saturday)

God rested on the seventh day after He created the earth. Genesis 2:1-3

God commanded with His own voice that the Sabbath be kept. Deuteronomy 4:12,13

God set aside the Sabbath and demanded that it be kept holy unto Him. Exodus 20:11

God blessed the Sabbath. Genesis 2:3

God established the Sabbath day in the Garden of Eden. Genesis 2:1-3

God designated the Sabbath before the fall of man and it was observed after the fall of man.

The Sabbath was given to Adam, the head of the human race. Mark 2:27, Genesis 2:1-3

Cain and Abel brought an offering to Jehovah on the Sabbath. Genesis 4:3

The Sabbath was a part of God’s law before Sinai. Exodus 16:4,23-29

The Sabbath is not a Jewish institution; it was made 2,300 years before the tribe of Judah existed.

God placed the Sabbath in the heart of His moral law. Exodus 20:1-17 Why would He place it there if it was not like the other nine precepts, which all admit to be absolute? Who are we to ignore it?

God forbade work upon the Sabbath, even in the most hurrying times. Exodus 34:21

God destroyed the Israelites in the wilderness because they profaned the Sabbath. Ezekiel 20:12,13

God wrote the commandment with His own finger. Exodus 31:18

God engraved it in the enduring stone, indicating its imperishable nature. Deuteronomy 5:22

The Sabbath was sacredly preserved in the ark in the holy of holies. Deuteronomy 10:1-5

The Sabbath is the sign of the true God, by which we are to know Him from false gods. Ezekiel 20:20

Strangers and foreigners together with the Jews observed the Sabbath. Exodus 20:10

The Bible never calls it the Jewish Sabbath, but always “the Sabbath of the Lord thy God.”

Reference is made to the Sabbath through out the patriarchal age. Genesis 2:1-3; 8:10,12; 29:27,28

God promised that Jerusalem should stand forever if the Jews kept the Sabbath. Jeremiah 17:24, 25

God sent the Israelites into Babylonian captivity for breaking the Sabbath. Nehemiah 13:18

God destroyed Jerusalem for its Sabbath violation. Jeremiah 17:27

God promises to bless all who keep the Sabbath. Isaiah 56:2

God says that those who observe the Sabbath are pleasing to Him. Isaiah 56:5

God promises that who ever keeps the Sabbath will eat with the heritage of Jacob. Isaiah 56:6

God pronounced a special blessing on all Gentiles who keep the Sabbath. Isaiah 56:6,7

Isaiah prophesied that Gentiles would join themselves to the Sabbath. Isaiah 56:6

God promises to make Gentiles who observe the Sabbath, joyful in His house of prayer. Isaiah 56:7

God promises that he will gather Gentiles who observe the Sabbath, to His holy mountain in Israel. Isaiah 56:7

God requires us to call the Sabbath “honorable.” Isaiah 58:13 Beware, you who take delight in calling it “a yoke of bondage.”

God has never given any man permission to work upon the Sabbath.

God has ever removed His blessing or sanctification from the Sabbath?

All the holy prophets kept the Sabbath.

Jesus says the Sabbath was made for man; jew and GENTILE. Mark 2:27

Jesus said that He was Lord of the Sabbath. Mark 2:28

Jesus indicated that the Sabbath will be observed by believers during the end times. Matthew 24:20

Jesus kept the Sabbath His entire life. Luke 4:16; John 15:10 Will we not be safe in following the Father and the Son?

Jesus severely condemned the Pharisees as hypocrites for pretending to love God, while at the same time they made void the commandments of God by their traditions.

Jesus is the husband of the Sabbath Mark 2:28 that is, to love and protect it, as the husband is the lord of the wife, to love and cherish her. 1 Peter 3:6

Jesus vindicated the Sabbath as a merciful institution designed for man’s good. Mark 2:23-28

Jesus carefully taught how the Sabbath should be observed. Matthew 12:1-13

Jesus taught His disciples that they should do nothing upon the Sabbath day but what was “lawful.” Matthew 12:12

Jesus expressly declared that He had not come to destroy the law, including the Sabbath. Matthew 5:17

Jesus taught on the Sabbath. Mark 1:21

Jesus said whosoever breaks the commandment of the Sabbath, and teaches others to do the same would be called “least” in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall observe it and teach others to do the same, shall be called “great” in the kingdom of heaven. Matt 5:19

Jesus rested in the grave on the Sabbath. John 20:1

The pious women who followed Jesus carefully kept the Sabbath after His death indicating that he had not instructed them to the contrary. Luke 23:5

Thirty years after Christ's resurrection, the Holy Spirit expressly calls it “the Sabbath day.” Acts 13:14

Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles, called it the “Sabbath day” in A.D. 45. Acts 13:27

Luke, the inspired Christian historian, writing as late as A.D. 62, calls it the “Sabbath day.” Acts 13:44

The Gentile converts called it “the Sabbath.” Acts 13:42

In the great Christian council, A.D. 49, in the presence of the apostles and thousands of disciples, James calls it the “Sabbath day.” Acts 15:21

Prayer meetings were held on the Sabbath. Acts 16:13

People worshipped on the Sabbath. Psalm 92:1

Paul read the Scriptures in public meetings on the Sabbath. Acts 17:2, 3

Paul preached on the Sabbath. Acts 17:2, 3

There was never any dispute between the Christians and the Jews about the Sabbath day. This is proof that Christians observed the same Sabbath day that the Jews did.

In all of their accusations against Paul, they never charged him with violating the Sabbath.

Paul himself expressly declared that he had kept the law. Acts 25:8 How could this be true if he had not kept the Sabbath?

The seventh-day Sabbath is mentioned in the Scriptures 126 times in the Old Testament, and 62 times in the New Testament.

Not a word is said anywhere in the New Testament that the Sabbath’s would be abolished, done away with or changed.

No Christian of the New Testament, either before or after the resurrection, ever did ordinary work upon the seventh day.

After the holy Sabbath has been trodden down “many generations,” it is to be restored in the last days: Isaiah 58:12-13

The Sabbath is observed eternally in the New Earth. For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. Isaiah 66:22-23

 

[GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I]

5) The Sabbath commandment is for the "stranger" too. The fourth commandment itself says the "stranger" is to rest on the Sabbath. Exodus 20:10.“Strangers” are non-Jews, or Gentiles. Thus the Sabbath applies to them too. Read also Isaiah 56:6.

6) Isaiah said Gentiles should keep the Sabbath. "Also the sons of the stranger ... every one that keeps the Sabbath ... for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people." Isaiah 56:6, 7. Thus the Sabbath is for Gentiles and “all people,” not just for Jews.

Was this meant for those gentiles living amongst Jews? So that all will come under the G-d of Israel and His decrees in the land of Israel? The whole house? Does this apply to people who are not Jewish today when the scriptures were written to and about the Jews? Gentiles were grafted into the vine with Christ. My question is this, isn't that judaizing? Also, do 7th Day Adventists circumcize? Is it a form of Messianic "Judaism"? My father is one but he wishes to convert fully to orthodox Judaism.

God promised that Jerusalem should stand forever if the Jews kept the Sabbath. Jeremiah 17:24, 25

If the Jews kept the Sabbath...which they are doing as commanded. I'm only asking. Divya, is this according to 7th Day Adventist?

 

[Sharpened]

When did Jesus break bread with His Disciples? On Wednesday evening (which would actually be Thursday) for Passover. This is the reasoning for Wednesday services. Let's not confuse the breaking of the bread with the Sabbath. You can break bread any day of the week.

This is a quote from the link:

Put this question to your Seventh-Day Adventist friends: Jesus, being God, knew whether or not his Church would apostatize by changing the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. If Adventists are correct that Christians are still obliged to keep Saturday as their day of corporate worship, isn’t it strange that Jesus underscored exactly the opposite by appearing to his disciples after his Resurrection nearly exclusively on Sunday?

I don't belong to any religion, but I had answered this: Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath, still kept the Sabbath; He couldn't rise on Saturday. Also, Jesus' anger at the Pharisees dealt with all of the extra, man-made requirements that distracted the Hebrews from growing closer to His Father and their hypocrisy towards their own doctrine.

I read Colossians 2. Paul was correcting the trouble a group who were mixing Hebrew and Gentile (secular) beliefs together had caused. Maybe the question we should ask is if the Ten Commandments still hold true.

 

[GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I]

When did Jesus break bread with His Disciples? On Wednesday evening (which would actually be Thursday) for Passover. This is the reasoning for Wednesday services. Let's not confuse the breaking of the bread with the Sabbath. You can break bread any day of the week.

This is a quote from the link:

I don't belong to any religion, but I had answered this: Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath, still kept the Sabbath; He couldn't rise on Saturday. Also, Jesus' anger at the Pharisees dealt with all of the extra, man-made requirements that distracted the Hebrews from growing closer to His Father and their hypocrisy towards their own doctrine.

I read Colossians 2. Paul was correcting the trouble a group who were mixing Hebrew and Gentile (secular) beliefs together had caused. Maybe the question we should ask is if the Ten Commandments still hold true.

You should put the source of the quote as being of the Catholic Forum. It was an answer given to someone being asked by a 7th Day Adventist. The Shabbat as maintained by the Jews is distinct. The Decalogue was given to Moses for the Hebrews and all the gentiles who left with them and would live under them. As G-d's purpose and intent was to bring salvation to all mankind through the Messiah, all should definitely follow the 10 Commandments. Good and bad are written on all of men's hearts. However, that Shabbat is distinct. I don' t think it is specifically for gentiles at all. I've already cited scriptures and my reasons for believing so. There is the Sabbath...but for Jews...it's quite distinct as there are certain ritual that must be performed. Is that what christians are doing? BTW, not all churches have Wednesday services.

 

[Sharpened]

You should put the source of the quote as being of the Catholic Forum. It was an answer given to someone being asked by a 7th Day Adventist. The Shabbat as maintained by the Jews is distinct. The Decalogue was given to Moses for the Hebrews and all the gentiles who left with them and would live under them. As G-d's purpose and intent was to bring salvation to all mankind through the Messiah, all should definitely follow the 10 Commandments. Good and bad are written on all of men's hearts. However, that Shabbat is distinct. I don' t think it is specifically for gentiles at all. I've already cited scriptures and my reasons for believing so. There is the Sabbath...but for Jews...it's quite distinct as there are certain ritual that must be performed. Is that what christians are doing? BTW, not all churches have Wednesday services.

Either the Fourth Commandment applies, or none of it does.