Historical Proof for Sabbath Day Change

[divya]

They both have the same meaning, Sweetie. Those two sames are one in the same. :Rose:

Jesus and Joshua are not the same, in my belief...

I checked another version and it's Joshua. Would make sense...they weren't talking about Jesus. What is it in the Greek or Aramaic? Anybody know? But those two names have different meanings.

I did some reading on the versions. Many of them branched from the New King James. My Greek has Jesus... This is quite strange.

Here's a site I found on changes made in the NKJV and follow by other versions. Scroll down for the comparisons. http://www.av1611.org/nkjv.html

Here's what they had to say at the end:

The NKJV removes the word "Lord" 66 times!

The NKJV removes the word God 51 times!

The NKJV removes the word "heaven" 50 times!

In just the New Testament alone the NKJV removes 2.289 words from the KJV!

The NKJV makes over 100,000 word changes!

And most will match the NIV, NASV, RSV, or RSV!

I don't use the other versions but I'm certainly curious about this now...

 

[divya]

In order for that interpretation to be correct, that entire passage would need to be about keeping the Sabbath in traditional Jewish ways. But that goes against what the broader context of the book is saying, particularly given that Paul then goes on to speak of Jesus being the fulfillment of other Jewish laws, meaning that those laws no longer need to be carried out in the same manner as before. The letter to the Hebrews on the whole is about Jesus as the fulfillment of the old testament laws. It is written to Hebrews to help them understand why they no longer need the temple, the sacrifices, the holy days of obligation because Christ has fulfilled all—not done away with it all, but fulfilled it all.

I think that more of it needs to be unpacked.

“And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.” (Heb. 3:18-19)

The disobedience of which the author speaks is specifically related to not having faith in the Gospel, not Sabbath-day observance: "Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. For we who have believed do enter that rest." (4:1-3) Here, he links entering into God’s rest to embracing the Gospel. Further, he says that
For if Joshua had given them rest. Sometimes translated as “Jesus” but better and more accurate translations translate it as Joshua, which actually is less confusing, as the author of Hebrews is not talking about Jesus here, but rather Joshua of the Old Testament. And as it has been mentioned, the names are connected. Joshua is a pre-figure of Christ, as one who was leading God's people into the promised land. (Moreover, it it’s not just one errant interpretation (NKJV) that “changed” it from Jesus to Joshua. It’s the King James that was not correct, which is a point that is fairly well established in biblical scholarship. We need to be careful of creating doctrines around one particular interpretation of Scripture.)

Why would the author of Hebrews mention Joshua giving them rest, saying that Joshua had not actually given them rest? Because Joshua was the leader who led God’s people into the Promised Land. For the Hebrews, Canaan would have been their rest and blessing. The disobedient Israelites who died in the wilderness failed to enter into the Promised Land. But even more than that, those who did enter it still did not receive God’s ultimate rest. By quoting the passage saying that there is yet another day and another rest, the Hebrews author is saying that even after God’s people entered the promised land, they still did not have rest, which led David to write in the Psalms: “If today you hear His voice, harden not your hearts.”

In David’s time, the people of God had already gotten to the Promised Land, and yet they had not truly entered into God’s rest because they were still disobedient. Thus, the author says, “There remains a rest for the people of God.” When he says that God designates “a certain day,” he does not say that that day is a particular day of the week, but rather that that “certain” day is “Today.” He is speaking not about calendar observances, but about coming to belief in the gospel today. Today, be obedient to Christ. Today enter into God’s rest.

Some have not entered into the rest because they have not embraced the gospel in faith. Again, the author said “for we who have believed do enter that rest.” We enter that rest when we believe. When the author says, “For there remains a rest for the people of God,” he is reiterating the point that the covenant of old did not ultimately bring rest to the people of God. But that rest is available now, and some have experienced it already, as he says:“For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.”

Now, in all the NT, is the act of “ceasing from works” ever tied to physical labor, jobs, cooking, etc? Not at all. Wherever “works” are mentioned, they refer to the actions associated with the Jewish tradition to obtain righteousness before God. We are to cease striving for acceptance before God through our own efforts; i.e, we are to come to faith in Christ through the preaching of the Gospel.

Rest is not something we do, but something that God gives us, allows us to enter into through faith in Christ. If Jesus did not bring us rest, then there’s no rest to be had at all!



God’s mysteries are wonderful.

Here you share the interpretations held by first-day worshipers. However, where you believe that Jesus did away with all Old Testament law, many Sabbath-keepers believe that He fulfilled the ceremonial/sacrificial law. All of the 10 commandments are mentioned in the New Testament, extending their validity. On these issues, the two groups will always diverge doctrinally.

 

[divya]

To be honest, I find the implication that non-Saturday observers have some kind of agenda to get rid of the Sabbath to be rather odd. Biblical translators are not sitting around trying to figure out ways of eliminating the Sabbath from the Bible. In the grand scheme of the Christian life, resting on Saturday would hardly be the challenging part.

I think a lot of people (including the devil!) would sooner change the Bible's meaning to allow for fornication, adultery, and homosexuality before changing it to mean that we don't have to rest on Saturday. Again, we're all seeking to be obedient to God here.

Also, from today's viewpoint, keeping Sabbath on Saturday (or keeping it in traditonal ways at all) looks like a desire to be more faithful to the radical call of the law. But when the Hebrews heard these messages, the idea of traditional observance no longer being in effect was radical to them. The idea that so much of how they observed the law and related themselves to God was radically changed by Jesus Christ was a stumbling block for some. They had difficulty accepting Christ as the fulfillment of the law. So we shouldn't feel a need to bring back Sabbath/Saturday observance as a way of being faithful to the law. If we get stuck on that point, we're doing the same thing that that Hebrews did when the Gospel was first preached to them.

I believe it is the agenda of true Christians - whether Sunday-worshiping or Sabbath-observing - to please God. As Nymphe pointed out, the grand deception begin long ago by Satan, who is seeking whom he can devour. And as you point out, it isn't limited to this one issue at all. There are so many way that the devil can deceive us.

Keeping the Sabbath appears not to be a challenge to many people. However, as Jina has pointed out, people lose their jobs daily because they choose to keep Sabbath holy. Past statistics reveal that two to three people lose their jobs daily in the U.S. because they refuse to work on Sabbath. As a student, I have had to make arrangements for required training done over the weekend. It required me going into the Dean with the head of the Jewish Law Students Association. So much is scheduled on the Sabbath. For example, just to be able to exercise the option to take the LSAT on Sunday, you have to send proof that you are a member of a Sabbath-keeping faith. Then until you live close, you have to travel to a place where they will administer the test on Sunday. Let's not even talk about bar classes. But it's worth it to please God!

From today's viewpoint as a Sabbath-keeper, keeping the law of God is out of love for God. The issue in Hebrews in my belief deals with the setting aside of the priestly laws (sacrificial/ceremonial laws), while the Ten Commandments are written in our hearts - to become a part of who we are and how we live. The priestly laws (sacrificial/ceremonial) are set aside because of Jesus' sacrifice. I love the imagery of Jesus as our High Priest!

 

[divya]

But that's just it...Jesus is L-rd of the Sabbath. He made it for man, not man for the Sabbath. The decalogue is G-d's revelation to man through the Hebrews....directly talking to THEM and all generations of THEM throughout the ages. Christians have been grafted into the vine...the curtain in the Temple torn...no longer separation. That doesn't mean Jews are invalid and that christians have to uphold Jewish law. Salvation is offered to all. Jesus provided the example. If we can argue that that revelation and prescribed mitzvot were all leading up to the Messiah and the spiritual meaning, the crux, the jist being returning to G-d in one's heart...how can we not see the spirit of the Sabbath spiritually? It's as though we want to subjugate Christ, the Redeemer of the world, under Saturday worship.

I don't have a problem with Shabbat for a variety of reasons. I kept it Jewishly. But I do have a problem when scripture is manipulated to say that those who do not worship on Saturday are somehow transgressing G-d. Jesus tells you you are not.

Interesting note: Sunday Sabbath in the RCC was absolutely mandated. People have grown away from the practice...but you weren't supposed to actually work on Sunday to be in good standing (not sure if considered a mortal sin or not) with church teaching. No one's saying that we shouldn't devote a day...but Christ is the head. Some prefer Saturday, some prefer the L-rd's Day.

Jews don't go by "scripture" concerning mitzvot and ritual laws...that's a protestant invention.... Oral law, tradition, scripture....can't divide it.

Yes, Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath. The Scriptures state that the “Sabbath was made for man.” It does not say that the Sabbath was made for the Jews. Buried somewhere in this discussion are differences on the role of the Jews, and here we will differ...

Israel was chosen by the God to be an example to other nations so that by them others would come to a knowledge of the one true God and His principles. God revealed the Decalogue to Israel to further that purpose and to share the truth through their example. It was not written solely for them in any way - Israel was only part of the grand plan of God.

I understand the curtain (veil) in the Temple torn from top to bottom signifying that the entire ceremonial system was no longer necessary because Christ made atonement of our sins. Ceremonial/sacrificial law was temporary. It was a shadow of things to come, full of types – all of which pointed to the ultimate sacrifice by Jesus. When Jesus died, no longer was it necessary to sacrifice the lamb/goat. Those sacrifices were shadows, looking towards Christ’s redemptive work.

When the curtain tore, it revealed the the Holiest of Holies. That curtain separated a sinful people from a Holy God. That is why only the high priest could enter in on the Day of Atonement. When Christ died, the curtain tore – revealing the Holiest of Holies because now God is accessible to all of us. Praise His name! No longer did the chosen high priest need to pass through the veil with blood (Hebrews 9:7) but Jesus made the our Holy God accessible to every person.

Hebrews 10:19-22
19Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; 21And having an high priest over the house of God; 22Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Christ’s death did away with the sacrificial/ceremonial system and Hebrews expounds on this. At the same time, Christ affirmed the Ten Commandments through His walk and writing the law in our hearts, that we may live in out in our lives. The sacrificial/ceremonial law is not the same as the Ten Commandments. Only the former was nailed to the cross. What is true, however, is that the Ten Commandments do not save us - we keep them because we love Jesus who gave His life for us, giving us access to God and the Kingdom of Heaven.

 

[Child0fGod]

This is a YT video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yH8520YG-gI

It lays out the historical proof that the Sabbath was changed by man from Saturday to Sunday.

We already have threads that show by scripture the Sabbath.

What say you?

ohhhh it's theforerunner777!! lol, this dude is the best. God keep him. i saw this video on his channel and intend to watch it... watched the entire 11-part "Jay-Z Deception" video. i'll probably come back and post my thoughts then thank you for sharing with us!

 

[GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I]

I believe it is the agenda of true Christians - whether Sunday-worshiping or Sabbath-observing - to please God. As Nymphe pointed out, the grand deception begin long ago by Satan, who is seeking whom he can devour. And as you point out, it isn't limited to this one issue at all. There are so many way that the devil can deceive us.


From today's viewpoint as a Sabbath-keeper, keeping the law of God is out of love for God. The issue in Hebrews in my belief deals with the setting aside of the priestly laws (sacrificial/ceremonial laws), while the Ten Commandments are written in our hearts - to become a part of who we are and how we live. The priestly laws (sacrificial/ceremonial) are set aside because of Jesus' sacrifice. I love the imagery of Jesus as our High Priest!

I think we all find that perfectly acceptable, just as long as we all realize that one's love of G-d and demonstration of it does not point to the lack of discernment, love and seeking of G-d when practices and interpretations differ for another.

 

[divya]

I think we all find that perfectly acceptable, just as long as we all realize that one's love of G-d and demonstration of it does not point to the lack of discernment, love and seeking of G-d when practices and interpretations differ for another.

Only the Lord determines whether we are living up to the light that we have been given. I believe that there will be people of all faiths standing on the sea of glass, even including individuals that may not have professed Christianity here on earth. That last statement is a whole separate issue though...

 

[JinaRicci]

^^ OT: Roti!! girl- what are u trying to do to me? LOL my favorite dish...


Yep- only God can judge.

 

[GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I]

Yes, Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath. The Scriptures state that the “Sabbath was made for man.” It does not say that the Sabbath was made for the Jews. Buried somewhere in this discussion are differences on the role of the Jews, and here we will differ...

Israel was chosen by the God to be an example to other nations so that by them others would come to a knowledge of the one true God and His principles. God revealed the Decalogue to Israel to further that purpose and to share the truth through their example. It was not written solely for them in any way - Israel was only part of the grand plan of God.

..
Christ’s death did away with the sacrificial/ceremonial system and Hebrews expounds on this. At the same time, Christ affirmed the Ten Commandments through His walk and writing the law in our hearts, that we may live in out in our lives. The sacrificial/ceremonial law is not the same as the Ten Commandments. Only the former was nailed to the cross. What is true, however, is that the Ten Commandments do not save us - we keep them because we love Jesus who gave His life for us, giving us access to God and the Kingdom of Heaven.

To the bolded, I know but that's not what I am saying. What I see is a disconnect here about Israel's continuous role in the scheme of things. The First Covenant is still in effect and is "their" salvation. Many, if not most, christians disagree with this and believe themselves to have taken over the physical and spiritual place of Israel. This is what I am speaking about. Shabbat, for the Jew, is actually mandatory...even though there are many secular people who never step foot into a synagogue, let alone interrupt their weekend lives to welcome in the sabbath. In that sense, christians cannot keep shabbat. They are not Jews. This is the disconnect. When a christian keeps sabbath, it is according to their specific role. They keep the gentile sabbath, worship of g-d, rest in Him etc. Their role and purpose is distinct from that of the Jew. In the cosmos, who knows how much is held together because some Jewish family is faithfully honoring and welcoming in Shabbas? Roles...they are distinct.

When a Jew keeps sabbath, it is for another distinct purpose to fulfill that special role in the world that G-d appointed. It cannot be changed. It has not been abolished. So, the roles people have, Jewish and gentile, differ. Rest is in G-d, period. But how we do it and by what authority, what purpose, etc...depends upon the role each of us place in the universe.

As far as the Decalogue, to me, it is salvation. I cannot be in full grace if I do not examine my conscience against it. I cannot participate fully in the sacraments if I am not in good standing. For us, it is still the law to live by. "If you love me, you will obey my commandments..." That might be or might not be limited to the Decalogue...but to other mitzvot. That's for study. But I cannot transgress them without putting myself in mortal danger and it includes the Sabbath worship...according to the first day of the week that Jesus broke bread with the apostles.

 

[divya]

^^ OT: Roti!! girl- what are u trying to do to me? LOL my favorite dish...


Yep- only God can judge.

My favorite too! Been dreaming of one this week. I'm going to have some this weekend when I head back home!

 

[divya]

To the bolded, I know but that's not what I am saying. What I see is a disconnect here about Israel's continuous role in the scheme of things. The First Covenant is still in effect and is "their" salvation. Many, if not most, christians disagree with this and believe themselves to have taken over the physical and spiritual place of Israel. This is what I am speaking about. Shabbat, for the Jew, is actually mandatory...even though there are many secular people who never step foot into a synagogue, let alone interrupt their weekend lives to welcome in the sabbath. In that sense, christians cannot keep shabbat. They are not Jews. This is the disconnect. When a christian keeps sabbath, it is according to their specific role. They keep the gentile sabbath, worship of g-d, rest in Him etc. Their role and purpose is distinct from that of the Jew. In the cosmos, who knows how much is held together because some Jewish family is faithfully honoring and welcoming in Shabbas? Roles...they are distinct.

When a Jew keeps sabbath, it is for another distinct purpose to fulfill that special role in the world that G-d appointed. It cannot be changed. It has not been abolished. So, the roles people have, Jewish and gentile, differ. Rest is in G-d, period. But how we do it and by what authority, what purpose, etc...depends upon the role each of us place in the universe.

As far as the Decalogue, to me, it is salvation. I cannot be in full grace if I do not examine my conscience against it. I cannot participate fully in the sacraments if I am not in good standing. For us, it is still the law to live by. "If you love me, you will obey my commandments..." That might be or might not be limited to the Decalogue...but to other mitzvot. That's for study. But I cannot transgress them without putting myself in mortal danger and it includes the Sabbath worship...according to the first day of the week that Jesus broke bread with the apostles.

Yes, that's a main area where we differ. I don't believe in that continuous role of Israel. And as stated previously, since the Scriptures established the Sabbath before Israel, it isn't confined to them. I believe the the Scriptures are for all and salvation through believing on Jesus Christ is for all.

Galatians 3:26-28 - For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

The verses above reflect my belief, but I understand where you stand in yours.

 

[GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I]

It is written to Hebrews to help them understand why they no longer need the temple, the sacrifices, the holy days of obligation because Christ has fulfilled all—not done away with it all, but fulfilled it all.
.

Except that they still sacrificed in the Temple. 70 ad was when it was destroyed. When the ark is located, the Temple will be rebuilt for the sacrifice...the red heiffer. The Divine Presence is amongst us now in the eucharist, which is the continuation of the sacrifice as it happens daily somewhere in the world. It was transformed. Holy Days of Obligation...also existing...but transformed. This should be another discussion, actually...what was transformed and how. I'd like to expand upon it and see what you all think about it, learning new things myself.

 

[aribell]

Here you share the interpretations held by first-day worshipers. However, where you believe that Jesus did away with all Old Testament law, many Sabbath-keepers believe that He fulfilled the ceremonial/sacrificial law. All of the 10 commandments are mentioned in the New Testament, extending their validity. On these issues, the two groups will always diverge doctrinally.

Actually, I specifically said that Jesus didn't do away with the law, but rather fulfilled it. Also, the conversation wasn't about whether to obey the 4th commandment, but rather what that obedience entailed. So, I don't see how that actually addresses the issues brought up in my post. But at this point, I think all sides have been represented. I think the more important point here is that we are actually thinking well about the Scriptures and relying on sound doctrine and interpretation to come to our conclusions.

 

[aribell]

Except that they still sacrificed in the Temple. 70 ad was when it was destroyed. When the ark is located, the Temple will be rebuilt for the sacrifice...the red heiffer. The Divine Presence is amongst us now in the eucharist, which is the continuation of the sacrifice as it happens daily somewhere in the world. It was transformed. Holy Days of Obligation...also existing...but transformed. This should be another discussion, actually...what was transformed and how. I'd like to expand upon it and see what you all think about it, learning new things myself.

It seems that those days, sacrifices, etc. were optional for the Jewish Christians, like they are optional for Messianic Jews today. The physical temple or ceremonial sacrifices weren't necessary to their life in Christ.

 

[Shimmie]

Jesus and Joshua are not the same, in my belief...

I understand, for this is your perception and how you were taught; and I respect your understanding and your feelings about this even more. There's nothing in my heart that wants to challenge your faith and your devotion to it. :Rose:

I will share what I've been taught, but still in respect, the utmost of you.

In Bible college, we were taught the meanings of the names of Jesus and it was years of Greek, Hebrew, Latin (in minor studies), as well as Arabic. We focused more on the Hebrew and Greek. What I respected about our Pastor, is that he allowed teachers of various faiths to come to our Church and minister to us with 'their' knowlege; it's what they knew because they live it, it's their culture.

This is only an example of how we were taught. And I share this only to be a blessing, and not as a challenge or to try to 'change' what anyone believes.

http://www.abarim-publications.com/Meaning/Joshua.html

Meaning, origin and etymology of the name Joshua

Joshua

The name Joshua occurs four times in the Bible. Most famous is the judge Joshua the Ephraimite, the successor of Moses and the one who leads Israel into the Promised Land. The original name of this Joshua is Hosea (

; Num 13:16) but Moses names him Joshua.

Other Joshuas are: the owner of a field in Beth-shemite where the Ark returns to Israel (1 Sam 6:14); A governor of Jerusalem (2 Kings 23:8); A high priest (Hag 1:1).

Joshua is also the original Hebrew form of the Greek name Jesus. A shortened form of Joshua (although not clear in English) is the name Jeshua (

).

The name Joshua is a compilation of two elements. The first element is

, which is the commonly accepted abbreviated form of

, which is YHWH, the Name of the Lord.

The second part of the name comes from the verb

(yasha 929), be saved, delivered. Derivations

(yesha 929a) and

(yeshua 929b) both mean salvation. Derivation

(shoa 929c) indicates a 'free man,' meaning an independent person.

BDB lists

under

and reads Yah Is Salvation. NOBSE reads Yahweh Is Salvation.

The name Joshua is the Hebrew form of the Greek name Jesus, and most probably the name by which Jesus was known by His contemporaries.

Jesus was fascinated by the Book of Isaiah, probably mostly because this Book appears to be entirely about Him, but perhaps also because the name Isaiah (

) is almost identical to the name Joshua with the two segments reversed.

Other names that are formed from the word

are Elisha and Ishi,

=================

Again, I'm just sharing what I've learned as a Bible and history student and as a Christian with the express desire to learn of God.

Each of us have such a 'wealth' of knowledge of our faith. I respect it all. I just want to make this clear. I truly respect each of you, no matter how/what we believe.

 

[GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I]

I don't believe in that continuous role of Israel. And as stated previously, since the Scriptures established the Sabbath before Israel, it isn't confined to them. I believe the the Scriptures are for all and salvation through believing on Jesus Christ is for all.

As a separate and distinct role according to G-d's plan...and this is where I input the "old" Testament...the Torah...and can I ask why out of curiosity? Does the SDA (or any other church, for that matter) see itself as Israel?

Shemot/Exodus 31:

13 -'Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying: Verily ye shall keep My sabbaths, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that ye may know that I am HaShem who sanctify you. 14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore, for it is holy unto you; every one that profaneth it shall surely be put to death; for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. 15 Six days shall work be done; but on the seventh day is a sabbath of solemn rest, holy to HaShem; whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. 16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. 17 It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel for ever; for in six days HaShem made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day He ceased from work and rested.'


Even though salvation has been offered to all, christians are not the children of Israel.

 

[blazingthru]

Why doesn’t the NT explicitly teach the seventh-day Sabbath?
It does, actually, in Hebrews 4. There we find the seventh day specified in connection with Gospel rest.

To see the context, go back a few verses to chapter 3, which recounts the fatal unbelief of those who failed to enter Canaan. Then comes a warning for Jewish Christians to avoid likewise falling short of gospel rest. In this context of resting in God's salvation, the seventh day Sabbath is introduced: God's "works were finished from the foundation of the world" and He "rested on the seventh day from all His works" (4:3,4). Then comes the sad history of Jewish failure to enter this Sabbath rest, which God had earned for them. Even after Joshua finally led them into Canaan they were not yet into Sabbath rest. Being external sabbatarians, the Jews did avoid business on the holy day. But they were not true Sabbath keepers they never entered the spirit of Sabbath rest.

This passage, read carefully, clearly carries the seventh-day Sabbath into the Christian church. Verse 8 mentions "another day" David introduced. Another day besides what? The Sabbath, of course; the passage is still discussing the seventh day rest. Did David's day replace the Sabbath day? On the contrary. He made true Sabbath keeping possible by calling a time apart to repent and believe in God's salvation. Did the Jews ever become true Sabbath keepers? Unfortunately not: "There remains therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God" (4:9). And what Sabbath rest is this that remains for New Testament Christians? "For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His" (4:10). When did God rest from His works? Verse 4 says: “God did rest the seventh day from all His works.”

So there we have it. This seventh-day Sabbath, says the apostle, remains for us so we can celebrate gospel rest.

Keep in mind that Hebrews 4 has no hint that God would abolish His sacred day of rest. The opposite is stated. So why do even Adventists themselves often ignore this powerful New Testament proof of the Sabbath? Because some of us doubt that the seventh day Sabbath is under discussion throughout the passage. After all, how could the apostle be telling Heb¬rews that their nation never kept the Sabbath? But this is exactly his point the Jews, who strictly observed the day, ignored its meaning. The apostle proves their need to begin true Sabbath keeping by reminding them of Canaan. In David's day, three centuries after Joshua brought them in, they still had not entered the rest it represented. Therefore they were mere sabbatarians, not Sabbath keepers. The call for spiritual rest on Sabbath, just like God Himself did rest—on the seventh day! This is the rest that remains for us.

 

[blazingthru]

^^ OT: Roti!! girl- what are u trying to do to me? LOL my favorite dish...


Yep- only God can judge.

This is what I was thinking. Roti!!

 

[divya]

Actually, I specifically said that Jesus didn't do away with the law, but rather fulfilled it. Also, the conversation wasn't about whether to obey the 4th commandment, but rather what that obedience entailed. So, I don't see how that actually addresses the issues brought up in my post. But at this point, I think all sides have been represented. I think the more important point here is that we are actually thinking well about the Scriptures and relying on sound doctrine and interpretation to come to our conclusions.

Thanks for clarifying your statement. I completely agree, Jesus did state that He came to fulfill the law. The very next verse tells us when all is fulfilled.

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." (Matthew 5:17-18)

Therefore, the law does not change until heaven and earth pass. This has not yet occurred, so based on that, my belief that we are to keep every jot/tittle of the law until then.

I can understand your perspective of the conversation. From a different perspective, the 4th commandment and the Scriptures give guidelines as to obedience. So in essence, the discussion is about whether to obey the 4th commandment and guidelines as provided or not, making it an issue of obedience.

Agree, it is wonderful to see us coming together to understand the Scriptures.

 

[divya]

I understand, for this is your perception and how you were taught; and I respect your understanding and your feelings about this even more. There's nothing in my heart that wants to challenge your faith and your devotion to it. :Rose:

I will share what I've been taught, but still in respect, the utmost of you.

In Bible college, we were taught the meanings of the names of Jesus and it was years of Greek, Hebrew, Latin (in minor studies), as well as Arabic. We focused more on the Hebrew and Greek. What I respected about our Pastor, is that he allowed teachers of various faiths to come to our Church and minister to us with 'their' knowlege; it's what they knew because they live it, it's their culture.

This is only an example of how we were taught. And I share this only to be a blessing, and not as a challenge or to try to 'change' what anyone believes.

http://www.abarim-publications.com/Meaning/Joshua.html

Meaning, origin and etymology of the name Joshua

Joshua

The name Joshua occurs four times in the Bible. Most famous is the judge Joshua the Ephraimite, the successor of Moses and the one who leads Israel into the Promised Land. The original name of this Joshua is Hosea (

; Num 13:16) but Moses names him Joshua.

Other Joshuas are: the owner of a field in Beth-shemite where the Ark returns to Israel (1 Sam 6:14); A governor of Jerusalem (2 Kings 23:8); A high priest (Hag 1:1).

Joshua is also the original Hebrew form of the Greek name Jesus. A shortened form of Joshua (although not clear in English) is the name Jeshua (

).

The name Joshua is a compilation of two elements. The first element is

, which is the commonly accepted abbreviated form of

, which is YHWH, the Name of the Lord.

The second part of the name comes from the verb

(yasha 929), be saved, delivered. Derivations

(yesha 929a) and

(yeshua 929b) both mean salvation. Derivation

(shoa 929c) indicates a 'free man,' meaning an independent person.

BDB lists

under

and reads Yah Is Salvation. NOBSE reads Yahweh Is Salvation.

The name Joshua is the Hebrew form of the Greek name Jesus, and most probably the name by which Jesus was known by His contemporaries.

Jesus was fascinated by the Book of Isaiah, probably mostly because this Book appears to be entirely about Him, but perhaps also because the name Isaiah (

) is almost identical to the name Joshua with the two segments reversed.

Other names that are formed from the word

are Elisha and Ishi,

=================

Again, I'm just sharing what I've learned as a Bible and history student and as a Christian with the express desire to learn of God.

Each of us have such a 'wealth' of knowledge of our faith. I respect it all. I just want to make this clear. I truly respect each of you, no matter how/what we believe.

Thank you so much! This is interesting! So in fact, the reference is still to Jesus!

Maybe you missed the previous posts, but the explanation given by another post was that it was not a reference to Jesus at all, but to Joshua in the Land of Canaan. So it made no sense to me, that the KJV would use Jesus and the NKJV would make reference to Joshua, the successor of Moses.

Really appreciate you sharing!

 

[divya]

As a separate and distinct role according to G-d's plan...and this is where I input the "old" Testament...the Torah...and can I ask why out of curiosity? Does the SDA (or any other church, for that matter) see itself as Israel?

Shemot/Exodus 31:

13 -'Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying: Verily ye shall keep My sabbaths, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that ye may know that I am HaShem who sanctify you. 14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore, for it is holy unto you; every one that profaneth it shall surely be put to death; for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. 15 Six days shall work be done; but on the seventh day is a sabbath of solemn rest, holy to HaShem; whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. 16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. 17 It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel for ever; for in six days HaShem made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day He ceased from work and rested.'


Even though salvation has been offered to all, christians are not the children of Israel.

My statement regarding the continuous role of Israel means that I do not believe in the role that is others often understand Israel as occupying today.

I definitely do not dispute this Scripture, but nowhere does it confine the Sabbath to Israel alone. It does, however, implore them to keep the Sabbath - which it should. Just like Hebrews implores us all to keep the Sabbath.

 

[divya]

Why doesn’t the NT explicitly teach the seventh-day Sabbath?
It does, actually, in Hebrews 4. There we find the seventh day specified in connection with Gospel rest.

To see the context, go back a few verses to chapter 3, which recounts the fatal unbelief of those who failed to enter Canaan. Then comes a warning for Jewish Christians to avoid likewise falling short of gospel rest. In this context of resting in God's salvation, the seventh day Sabbath is introduced: God's "works were finished from the foundation of the world" and He "rested on the seventh day from all His works" (4:3,4). Then comes the sad history of Jewish failure to enter this Sabbath rest, which God had earned for them. Even after Joshua finally led them into Canaan they were not yet into Sabbath rest. Being external sabbatarians, the Jews did avoid business on the holy day. But they were not true Sabbath keepers they never entered the spirit of Sabbath rest.

This passage, read carefully, clearly carries the seventh-day Sabbath into the Christian church. Verse 8 mentions "another day" David introduced. Another day besides what? The Sabbath, of course; the passage is still discussing the seventh day rest. Did David's day replace the Sabbath day? On the contrary. He made true Sabbath keeping possible by calling a time apart to repent and believe in God's salvation. Did the Jews ever become true Sabbath keepers? Unfortunately not: "There remains therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God" (4:9). And what Sabbath rest is this that remains for New Testament Christians? "For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His" (4:10). When did God rest from His works? Verse 4 says: “God did rest the seventh day from all His works.”

So there we have it. This seventh-day Sabbath, says the apostle, remains for us so we can celebrate gospel rest.

Keep in mind that Hebrews 4 has no hint that God would abolish His sacred day of rest. The opposite is stated. So why do even Adventists themselves often ignore this powerful New Testament proof of the Sabbath? Because some of us doubt that the seventh day Sabbath is under discussion throughout the passage. After all, how could the apostle be telling Heb¬rews that their nation never kept the Sabbath? But this is exactly his point the Jews, who strictly observed the day, ignored its meaning. The apostle proves their need to begin true Sabbath keeping by reminding them of Canaan. In David's day, three centuries after Joshua brought them in, they still had not entered the rest it represented. Therefore they were mere sabbatarians, not Sabbath keepers. The call for spiritual rest on Sabbath, just like God Himself did rest—on the seventh day! This is the rest that remains for us.

Wow! This is something else!

Honestly, I don't know what to make of the change in language between the versions but this is a great explanation...

 

[GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I]

My statement regarding the continuous role of Israel means that I do not believe in the role that is others often understand Israel as occupying today.

I definitely do not dispute this Scripture, but nowhere does it confine the Sabbath to Israel alone. It does, however, implore them to keep the Sabbath - which it should. Just like Hebrews implores us all to keep the Sabbath.

You mean the Saturday Sabbath, not the christian one...which might occur on Saturday or Sunday, right? I just cannot think of Shabbat as christian. There is Sabbath rest...but Israel was definitely called to honor the Sabbath in a certain way that is not required of others. I'm trying to comprehend why SDA apparently thinks it is Israel...for lack of a better way of asking. Can you give me an url so I can read up on the philosophy of your church from the source...I don't like 2-3rd handed sources. I'd rather respect and learn as it is being taught from that particular organization.

So, do you mean that Israel misunderstands it's role? I do believe all are called to a Sabbath. I'm just disagreeing that christians have to honor it as the Jews because of their respective roles. Does SDA believe in Replacement Theology?

For me, I think the difficulty is in attempting to understand just how non-Jews think they are Jewish christians, per se. Hebrews was addressed to Jews. Of course, gentiles entered into the faith and the issues surrounding their faith was taken up in the NT. They were not required to convert to the Mosaic Covenant in order to be christians.

We keep putting this term out there..."Jewish christians" but they were still Jews. At some point, they were kicked out of the synagogues, making their new identity and becoming "christian" and no longer Jewish. Unless someone gentile converted under the Mosaic Law back then and subsequently came to faith in Jesus, they were certainly still gentiles...not Jews. One cannot become a Jew simply by honoring Shabbat. So, I see these scriptures addressed to Jews...not gentiles. And this is the reason I'm asking if SDA believes in Replacement Theology...or anyone else's church, for that matter.

I keep editing as thought come...

But you make mention that the scriptures implore all to keep the Sabbath. Noachides keep the Sabbath, but they are not Jews. Maybe this will help you comprehend where I'm coming from. Now, I realize it's going to contradict somewhat the christian observance of a day of rest...or even support it as part of the Abrahamic convenant now that the Messiah has come...and christians being grafted in are also called to teach others about the One True G-d. I'm sorry this is so long...I'll try next time to cut these in half and separate the questions.

http://www.mesora.org/noachide-shabbos.html

On page 58b in Sanhedrin, the Talmud states, "A non Jew who rests on the Sabbath is punished with death, as it states (when Noach left the ark and sacrificed animals to God as thanks for his rescue, Gen. 8:21-22):

"And God smelled the pleasant scent, and God said in His heart, 'I will never again curse the earth for man's sake, for man's inclination is evil from youth, and I will never again smite all life as I have done. Furthermore, all the days of earth, planting and reaping, cold and hot, summer and winter, day and night shall not cease."

Rashi learns from this verse that God was not simply describing future solar and meteorological phenomena, but He was also commanding Noach and all mankind never to cease from planting and harvesting - not even for one day. Rashi states further that this prohibition regarding Noachides is not limited to the Jewish Sabbath, but also applies to a Jewish holiday which may fall out on a Sunday and even applies to a Noachide's proclaiming his day of rest - whether it is a Jewish day of rest or not. In short, any institutionalized day of rest is prohibited to a Noachide by this verse.

Cessation from such labor is a denial of God's mercy. Such heresy and denial is punishable with death. Noachides observing the Sabbath obscure the lesson that Torah stems from monotheists, i.e., those descendants of Abraham. While it is true that many gentiles may be monotheists, it is not true that all are. What is an absolute truth is the fact that ALL of Abraham's children partake of his monotheistic heritage. The role of "mankind's teachers" can only be filled by those with the divine directive inherited from the founder, and commanded by God at Sinai. This reputation must not be diluted by others filling such a role. It would obscure God's plan that descendants of a monotheist - Abraham - teach monotheism. As time progressed, and mankind regressed into paganism, God gave a select group of people the Torah. These were the descendants of a man who extricated himself from idolatry. With no teacher other than the world alone, he discovered monotheism. This is God's plan for man, that he relate to God. If one such as Abraham was able to do so, even being raised in an idolatrous culture, then God desired that Abraham be the one personality demonstrating the correct life for mankind. There could be no one better than Abraham to exemplify God's desired lifestyle. For this reason, God chose Abraham's adherents as the guardians of his philosophy. But guarding such an outlook, and Abraham's acts of reaching out to others - is not achieved without hours of pondering the universe. Such pondering requires time, and therefore Abraham's children are afforded this time in the form of the Sabbath. It is not favoritism towards the Jew that he rests on the Sabbath. Rather, it is God's separate consideration that the Jew be commanded in teaching the rest of the world which corrupted itself with pagan beliefs. In order to teach others, the Jew must have the knowledge. Thus, he is commanded that one day each week, his preoccupation with toiling for earthly sustenance must be interrupted.

 

[divya]

You mean the Saturday Sabbath, not the christian one...which might occur on Saturday or Sunday, right? I just cannot think of Shabbat as christian. There is Sabbath rest...but Israel was definitely called to honor the Sabbath in a certain way that is not required of others. I'm trying to comprehend why SDA apparently thinks it is Israel...for lack of a better way of asking. Can you give me an url so I can read up on the philosophy of your church from the source...I don't like 2-3rd handed sources. I'd rather respect and learn as it is being taught from that particular organization.

So, do you mean that Israel misunderstands it's role? I do believe all are called to a Sabbath. I'm just disagreeing that christians have to honor it as the Jews because of their respective roles. Does SDA believe in Replacement Theology?

For me, I think the difficulty is in attempting to understand just how non-Jews think they are Jewish christians, per se. Hebrews was addressed to Jews. Of course, gentiles entered into the faith and the issues surrounding their faith was taken up in the NT. They were not required to convert to the Mosaic Covenant in order to be christians. We keep putting this term out there..."Jewish christians" but they were still Jews. At some point, they were kicked out of the synagogues, making their new identity and becoming "christian" and no longer Jewish. Unless someone gentile converted under the Mosaic Law back then and subsequently came to faith in Jesus, they were certainly still gentiles...not Jews. One cannot become a Jew simply by honoring Shabbat. So, I see these scriptures addressed to Jews...not gentiles. And this is the reason I'm asking if SDA believes in Replacement Theology...or anyone else's church, for that matter.

I respect your views, but there is only one Sabbath in the Scriptures. My faith holds to the verses below:

Galatians 3:26-28 - For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Matthew 5:17 -18 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." (Matthew 5:17-18)

Here are SDA sites that example the movements' beliefs: http://www.adventist.org/

 

[GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I]

Divya, the post was so long, I had to keep editing it...can you go back now and see where my questions are...esp. addressing the article from Mesora.org? And thank you for the link.

 

[divya]

I keep editing as thought come...

But you make mention that the scriptures implore all to keep the Sabbath. Noachides keep the Sabbath, but they are not Jews. Maybe this will help you comprehend where I'm coming from. Now, I realize it's going to contradict the christian observance of a day of rest...

http://www.mesora.org/noachide-shabbos.html

On page 58b in Sanhedrin, the Talmud states, "A non Jew who rests on the Sabbath is punished with death, as it states (when Noach left the ark and sacrificed animals to God as thanks for his rescue, Gen. 8:21-22):

"And God smelled the pleasant scent, and God said in His heart, 'I will never again curse the earth for man's sake, for man's inclination is evil from youth, and I will never again smite all life as I have done. Furthermore, all the days of earth, planting and reaping, cold and hot, summer and winter, day and night shall not cease."

Cessation from such labor is a denial of God's mercy. Such heresy and denial is punishable with death. Noachides observing the Sabbath obscure the lesson that Torah stems from monotheists, i.e., those descendants of Abraham. While it is true that many gentiles may be monotheists, it is not true that all are. What is an absolute truth is the fact that ALL of Abraham's children partake of his monotheistic heritage. The role of "mankind's teachers" can only be filled by those with the divine directive inherited from the founder, and commanded by God at Sinai. This reputation must not be diluted by others filling such a role. It would obscure God's plan that descendants of a monotheist - Abraham - teach monotheism. As time progressed, and mankind regressed into paganism, God gave a select group of people the Torah. These were the descendants of a man who extricated himself from idolatry. With no teacher other than the world alone, he discovered monotheism. This is God's plan for man, that he relate to God. If one such as Abraham was able to do so, even being raised in an idolatrous culture, then God desired that Abraham be the one personality demonstrating the correct life for mankind. There could be no one better than Abraham to exemplify God's desired lifestyle. For this reason, God chose Abraham's adherents as the guardians of his philosophy. But guarding such an outlook, and Abraham's acts of reaching out to others - is not achieved without hours of pondering the universe. Such pondering requires time, and therefore Abraham's children are afforded this time in the form of the Sabbath. It is not favoritism towards the Jew that he rests on the Sabbath. Rather, it is God's separate consideration that the Jew be commanded in teaching the rest of the world which corrupted itself with pagan beliefs. In order to teach others, the Jew must have the knowledge. Thus, he is commanded that one day each week, his preoccupation with toiling for earthly sustenance must be interrupted.

Rashi learns from this verse that God was not simply describing future solar and meteorological phenomena, but He was also commanding Noach and all mankind never to cease from planting and harvesting - not even for one day. Rashi states further that this prohibition regarding Noachides is not limited to the Jewish Sabbath, but also applies to a Jewish holiday which may fall out on a Sunday and even applies to a Noachide's proclaiming his day of rest - whether it is a Jewish day of rest or not. In short, any institutionalized day of rest is prohibited to a Noachide by this verse.

Respectfully...

I comprehend your position. However, as a Christian, I believe in the Scriptures, and if other writings do not coincide with the Scriptures, then they have no authoritative value on such matters.

 

[aribell]

Thank you so much! This is interesting! So in fact, the reference is still to Jesus!

Maybe you missed the previous posts, but the explanation given by another post was that it was not a reference to Jesus at all, but to Joshua in the Land of Canaan. So it made no sense to me, that the KJV would use Jesus and the NKJV would make reference to Joshua, the successor of Moses.

Really appreciate you sharing!

Hmmm...I don't think that is what that passage that Shimmie shared actually says. It said that Jesus is the Greek form of the Hebrew name Joshua, and is also the name by which Jesus was likely called by his Hebrew contemporaries.

That isn't to say that any passage speaking of Joshua of the OT is in reality a reference to Jesus.

Again, it's okay to disagree, but how we reason to reach our conclusions is nearly as important as the conclusions themselves.

 

[divya]

Hmmm...I don't think that is what that passage that Shimmie shared actually says. It said that Jesus is the Greek form of the Hebrew name Joshua, and is also the name by which Jesus was likely called by his Hebrew contemporaries.

That isn't to say that any passage speaking of Joshua of the OT is in reality a reference to Jesus.

Again, it's okay to disagree, but how we reason to reach our conclusions is nearly as important as the conclusions themselves.

It seems like the only sensible explanation as to how how Jesus in the KJV was then translated to Joshua in the same passage. I welcome any other ideas though...

 

[GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I]

Respectfully...

I comprehend your position. However, as a Christian, I believe in the Scriptures, and if other writings do not coincide with the Scriptures, then they have no authoritative value on such matters.

It's Jewish...which I thought that the SDA read from...they take into consideration the Mosaic Laws. This is their position on non-Jews under Noachide Law and I included it to further comprehend the SDA position of the Sabbath. Is it because it's Talmud? Okay, I respect that...hadn't expected that reaction...but I respect. Well, that cuts the questioning right in half...I won't get an answer then concerning the specific issues. I want to stress it was for discussion and comprehension of the SDA position. As I said before, I oathe people's attempt to coerce and proselytize...which is something I just will not do. So I hope you understand why I am questioning...to comprehend but I can only do that by bringing up certain issues I've wanted to know about. I previously had no clue as to what SDA's beliefs were. It's interesting, nonetheless. But we can leave it at that. G-d forbid you think I'm trying to suade you to one side...G-d forbid.

 

[divya]

It's Jewish...which I thought that the SDA read from...they take into consideration the Mosaic Laws. This is their position on non-Jews under Noachide Law and I included it to further comprehend the SDA position of the Sabbath. Is it because it's Talmud? Okay, I respect that...hadn't expected that reaction...but I respect. Well, that cuts the questioning right in half...I won't get an answer then concerning the specific issues. I want to stress it was for discussion and comprehension of the SDA position. As I said before, I oathe people's attempt to coerce and proselytize...which is something I just will not do. So I hope you understand why I am questioning...to comprehend. I previously had no clue as to what SDA's beliefs were. It's interesting, nonetheless. But we can leave it at that. G-d forbid you think I'm trying to suade you to one side...G-d forbid.

Oh ok, I see. We don't uphold such laws, but rather only what comes from the Scriptures. That is not to say that one cannot read those passages at all or for any reason. I'm sure there are those who have studied them. However, as far as direction for living, the Holy Scriptures are the authority. It is interesting though...