can you or can you not lose your salvation?

[loolalooh]

To answer your question:

When the Bible speaks about inheriting the kingdom concerning sinners...it is talking about eternal life (because that is all it can refer to concerning them). But when it talks to Christians depending on the context it is speaking about either here on earth or eternal life (as we have benefits of being an heir here on earth as well as in heaven).

1. Romans 14:17 talks about not offending (becoming a stumblingblock) to our brothers/sisters by eating meat that may have been offered to idols. He says that the Kingdom of God is not actually about food and drink but is a state of righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. The example is talking about this earthly life concerning meat and drink and it makes sense that it also is referring to having the kingdom of God here on earth. The below scripture supports having the kingdom of God present now (not just in heaven).
Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.


On a different note
I think the issue is that there are a lot of scriptures that talk about salvation and eternal life, and inheriting the kingdom etc. And if you're not careful they will seem to contradict themselves (as each side in this thread has used scripture to back their belief). It is necessary to start from the right basis to correctly interpret seemingly contradictory scriptures.

I am starting from the premis:

1. I was born in sin
(Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.)

2. Due to my sinful state I am destined for death (physical and eternal seperation from God) Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death;

3. God made a way for me to escape the eternal consequences of my sins by having Jesus Christ die in my place. Romans 6:23 but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Let's look at the verse in context (i.e., along with verse 22):

ROMANS 6: 22 But now you are free from the power of sin and have become slaves of God. Now you do those things that lead to holiness and result in eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.

We were born into sin. God has given us a way out that is twofold:
1) instead of death, we have eternal life
2) instead of remaining slaves to sin, we become slaves of God (i.e., "do those things that lead to holiness")

4. But this escape is not automatic to humans. I have to recieve this gift. How do I recieve it?
JOhn 3:16 that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Acts 16:30-31 He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”
Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

5. Is that all I have to do? Yes, (other than the outward show of baptism that does not save us but we do because we are saved). Because our right standing with God is not a result of our own righteousness but of Jesus' righteousness.

"Believe" is in the present tense. Those who "believe in Jesus" will be saved. Christians who fall away from the Lord (i.e., stop believing) should be careful. Additionally, "believe" is a power-packed word. Believe encompasses becoming a new person in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17) ... a slave to God (Romans 6:22).

2 CORINTHIANS
14 Either way, Christ’s love controls us.[c] Since we believe that Christ died for all, we also believe that we have all died to our old life.[d] 15 He died for everyone so that those who receive his new life will no longer live for themselves. Instead, they will live for Christ, who died and was raised for them.

I didn't get to the rest of the post, but I agree: "The Bible CANNOT say that we are saved by works AND we are saved by grace only." But that grace comes with a change in our lives. If we are not accepting that change in our lives then something's not right in the water. Whether the person was not saved to begin with ... or whether the person lost his/her salvation. Something's not right in the water ...

This has been a great discussion on both sides.

 

[sidney]

So, I prayed specifically about this thread and I want to share a dream that God showed that I believe contains the answer to this question. My sincere hope is that this may help someone, that is my only aim. So in the dream an electronic bible was open, like on a phone, and I saw the verse 19 bold on the left, and the text scrolled “up” as if someone was reading “down” to the middle verse, and it stopped there. Somehow I knew that the chapter was Luke. So the info I had was Luke 19, middle verses…and that was it! So…I had to ask God for an understanding of the scripture because he said nothing in the dream. By faith, I will attempt to explain to you the meaning of this parable. So, I will start with talking about faith, because outwardly it may seem that Luke 19 has nothing to do with faith and salvation, but it does! In Hebrews 11, there is an entire chapter summarizing the works of some of our most famed bible heroes. By faith, Abel brought a better offering than Cain did. By faith, Noah…when warned about things not seen, built an ark to save his family. By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. The chapter goes on and on about the faith of Moses, the faith that caused the walls of Jericho to fall, the faith of Rahab, David, Samuel, and many others. The curious thing is that faith in every believer listed is accompanied by works! It’s BY FAITH, that all of these heroes were able to perform the works. See, our outward works always reflect what we believe! (ie. You don’t open a bible to read it unless you think that it will benefit your spiritual life). It is clear that the middle verses of Luke 19[11-27] is about salvation/entering into the kingdom, but with a cursory glands one might think the way to obtain it is all about works. But it’s not. I will post the parable first, attempt to explain it, and then try to answer the question asked in this thread.

The Parable of the Ten Talents: Luke 19:11-17[middle verses]
11 While they were listening to this, he went on to tell them a parable, because he was near Jerusalem and the people thought that the kingdom of God was going to appear at once. 12 He said: “A man of noble birth went to a distant country to have himself appointed king and then to return. 13 So he called ten of his servants and gave them ten talents. ‘Put this money to work,’ he said, ‘until I come back.’ 14 “But his subjects hated him and sent a delegation after him to say, ‘We don’t want this man to be our king.’ 15 “He was made king, however, and returned home. Then he sent for the servants to whom he had given the money, in order to find out what they had gained with it. 16 “The first one came and said, ‘Sir, your talent has earned ten more.’ 17 ‘Well done, my good servant!’ his master replied. ‘Because you have been trustworthy in a very small matter, take charge of ten cities.’ 18 “The second came and said, ‘Sir, your talent has earned five more.’’ 19 “His master answered, ‘You take charge of five cities.’ 20 “Then another servant came and said, ‘Sir, here is your talent; I have kept it laid away in a piece of cloth. 21 I was afraid of you, because you are a hard man. You take out what you did not put in and reap what you did not sow.’’ 22 “His master replied, ‘I will judge you by your own words, you wicked servant! You knew, did you, that I am a hard man, taking out what I did not put in, and reaping what I did not sow? [23 Why then didn’t you put my money on deposit, so that when I came back, I could have collected it with interest?’ 24 “Then he said to those standing by, ‘Take his talent away from him and give it to the one who has ten talents.’’ 25 “‘Sir,’ they said, ‘he already has ten!’ 26 “He replied, ‘I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what they have will be taken away. 27 But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me.’

So obviously the man of noble birth who appointed himself King is God[Jesus]. He is self-appointed. And he has three servants. Like the believers in Hebrews 11, the faithful servants did good works because they have faith in God that in doing so they would receive the promise. They sowed into God’s kingdom, by faith! By faith, they prepared for his return! Likewise, by faith, we prepare for his return and endure the cost of discipleship! And their good works were accompanied by their faith and evidence of their faith! See, this parable is not about works earning righteousness. But the wicked servant did not sow, but rather accused God! It was because of his unbelief, he was deemed wicked, and the penalty is death. It’s like the flipside of Hebrews 11, because of unbelief, he did nothing. Because of his unbelief, he did not obey God’s commandments to sow into his kingdom because he did not truly fear the King as he claimed. If he did, he would have obeyed. That is why he is deemed wicked, instead of just unfaithful! And because of it, he experienced “weeping and gnashing of teeth” which always refers to hell in the bible. Also notice that the wicked servant,rejected God as his king. God’s word says, why do you call me Lord, Lord, but do not do what I say. Luke 6:26. Not everyone who says, Lord, Lord, will enter into the kingdom. Matthew 7:21. Prophesying in Christ's Name [by the power of Christ] and casting out demons, is done by Christians. Not wordly people. See this, whole parable was well and good with me, until I realized that ALL three servants, are Christians. Yep, even the wicked one. Which, indicated to me that Christians can forfeit their salvation through continual and willful unbelief. [I will try to support this by scripture in the rest of this message].

So from the last line, it’s clear the point of this parable is about salvation. But how do I know this parable is about faith, and not works? “For by grace, you have been saved through faith, and this is not your doing, it is a gift from God. Not because of your own works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship. Created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand.” Ephesians 2:8-10

Hebrews 10 is broken up into two parts. The first part talks about the sacrifice of God for our sins. The second half is an admonishment by Paul to persevere in faith. I will summarize the keep points. Paul starts by saying that we have the confidence to enter in by the blood of Jesus Christ, and to hold on unswervingly with the hope we profess, and to encourage eachother. Okay, I can’t summarize it. Verse 26:
26 If we [notice he includes himself, he is talking to Christians] deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge his[notice he says HIS] people.” 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. 32 Remember those earlier days after you had received the light, when you endured in a great conflict full of suffering. 33 Sometimes you were publicly exposed to insult and persecution; at other times you stood side by side with those who were so treated. 34 You suffered along with those in prison and joyfully accepted the confiscation of your property, because you knew that you yourselves had better and lasting possessions.[still talking about Christians, who else would be persecuted for Christ’s sake]

35 So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. 36 You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised[he is talking about salvation]. 37 For, “In just a little while, he who is coming will come and will not delay. [again talking about salvation]” 38 And, “But my righteous one will live by faith. And I take no pleasure in the one who shrinks back.” [See we must live by faith! Just like in the parable of the talents, because of our faith in him…we will be lead to do good works for the kingdom like the Hebrews 11 christians. Yes you, too! By faith, you have run the race like Paul, to get that crown that will last forever, 1 Corinthians 9:25. And by our faith ALONE will we be justified. The righteous ones will have faith through all the suffering we go through, see verses33-34. He will not walk away and turn to unbelief—and become and accuser of God,like the wicked servant, when things get rough; God takes no pleasure in this kind of person].

. CONTINUE TO NEXT POST

 

[sidney]

Like the good and faithful servants in Luke 19, and the heroes in Hebrews 11, we should have faith that this lifestyle of holiness will win for us an eternal reward. We have to do what God tells us to do, by faith! We have to sow into the kingdom, by faith! As we saw in the Ephesians 2 verse above, we were created for good works! Our works, won’t save us through. Even the Pharisee’s have works but they had no faith in the one who was sent. Don’t just have faith in faith either, have faith IN GOD.
Hebrews 11:6 “And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that HE EXISTS and that HE REWARDS those who earnestly seek him.


One more thing, there is grace. This is not just about anyone having good works! It’s not! It’s about having a repentant heart! We can’t forget the story of the prodigal son. Repentance is always available. You are not disqualified! It’s not about works, it’s about having the faith to do what is right because he died for us. From that your good works will flow. But I must warn that to continue to willfully continue in sin earns judgment. When you continue in willful and deliberate sin after hearing God's truth you are functioning in unbelief. BY FAITH, we do our best to live right. As I stated before, when you continue deliberate sin, you are operating in UNBELIEF. Your actions and works testify to the fact that you do not believe that the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life. Romans 6:23. See, the wicked servants bad actions and words condemned him!

I also want to post Hebrews 6, I have to put whole verses in because the message gets loss with only posting one part. “Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3And this will we do, if God permit. 4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost [who get’s the holy ghost, talking about christians], 5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance[because they are unrepentant, hardened]; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. 7For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: 8But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned. 9But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. 10For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labor of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints [good works of the faithful servant], and do minister. 11And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end: 12That ye be not slothful [like the wicked servant], but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises

 

[sidney]

@CoilyFields - The problem with the "once saved, always saved" doctrine is that no one is truly saved yet. Check out these verses in the bible:

Matthew 24:13
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Philippians 2:12-13
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Obtaining salvation is all about faith. It has nothing to do with works. As long as you do not sin wilfully then you shall be saved in the end. If you do sin wilfully, then you lose your salvation because you are not relying on Christ who died on the cross for the punishment of our sins. We cannot take credit for our salvation. Our righteousness is but filthy rags.

Didn't realize I said most of what you said, Thank you. I agree with you Poohbear and all the ladies here and the scriptures you posted.

 

[sidney]

For you ladies that believe in once saved always saved. Please explain what 1 Timothy 4:1 tells you. If you walk with Christ and live according to His will then yes but what about 1 Timothy 4:1.

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 1 Tim 4:1

Now these people were once apart of the faith, they were once saved had departed and gave into deception.

WOW, speechless! Oh my my my!!

 

[makeupgirl]

Ok so this particular discussion has bothered me greatly throughtout the weekend and even until today and I'll probably always bother me because I just cannot believe that anyone in Christ would believe that they will lose their salvation. That's just mind-blowing to me.

So I've been researching and today was led to this site (while working..shhhhh)

It speaks about Eternal Security/God's Assurance. Now, I do believe once saved always saved doc? I surely do because its' in alignment with what Eternal Security is.

So just read this with an open mind and remember this, if you're in Christ, you are a new creature and you've passed from life to death.

ETERNAL SECURITY/ GOD'S ASSURANCE​

Jesus states in Jn.10:27-30: “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall anyone pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one.
You can break your communion with God but not your spiritual union. If one truly believes and follows, they are part of a living eternal organism called the body of Christ.
The believer lives under grace. This guarantees God's ability to bring to a conclusion what we cannot. We were not saved by our works, so we don't undo our salvation by works. One cannot keep themselves saved, since we didn’t save ourselves in the first place, we remain saved by grace, by His power.
Salvation is a gift freely given apart from any human effort. It does not depend on our performance nor on a certain amount of obedience in having it be permanent in our life. If you brought someone to faith in Christ and they asked how long will I be saved for? You say as long as you obey. How long can I obey? who knows. Your eternal security is not associated with your works but to Christ's work
It is not a reward for good behavior Jn.10:28 “I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost.”
There are approximately 85 passages in the New Testament by both Jesus and Paul which attest to salvation by grace and that eternal life is imparted as a gift to all those who believe in Christ.

Salvation's checklist​

One of the foremost ways Satan attacks Christians is by condemning them when they sin. He makes them question or doubt their salvation. Without the helmet of salvation on our minds are open to his doubts. We are to know what we believe so we cannot be persuaded into a lie.
How does one know that they are saved. First is they will become acutely aware of their sin. They will sense a struggle of doing what was once pleasurable and be repelled of it, they will no longer practice sin as a lifestyle. They will have a battle of the indwelling of sin with his new nature, he cries out who will deliver me from this body of death. They will have the power to say no to the sins that so easily trapped him, if he so chooses. They have the witness of the Spirit, the word is now understandable and He bears witness that it is the truth. They have the peace of God where before he was wrestling against him he now enjoys obeying Gods commands where before he detested them. Their attitude toward the world will change his affections will be redirected toward the things of God. They will love Christ and be looking forward to his return having the assurance of being in his kingdom. They will also love the brethren, enjoying fellowship with them. They will provoke others to love and service unto the Lord not things contrary. They have a love for the Word which sets them apart from the world that is contrary to the things of God Jn.17:14-19. They will experience answered prayers for God's will in his life and others Jn.14,15:7. He will have the ability to discern truth from error whereas before he had no guidelines1 Jn.2:27; Heb.5:13-14. They believe in the essential doctrines of the faith and are willing to defend them to some degree when they are challenged.
If someone leaves the lord and goes back into a lifestyle that is lived by heathens were they saved? The parable of the seed found in Mt.13 shows how it can germinate and lose its vitality being strangled by things in the world. No plant can be firm and produce fruit without a root system that is well grounded. Jesus says He has appointed us to produce fruit in various degrees, we will all produce fruit because we are a tree the Lord planted. Trees need nourishment, they need water (the word). As Jesus said in Jn.15 we must abide in the vine, apart from him we can do nothing. He then goes on to say those who do not abide are cast out into fire. There are a number of ways to look at this; one is that it is hell, another is fiery trial that will purge or chasten the believer back into obedience. Again if we go back and take the context He is speaking about abiding in His Word, which continually cleanses us, proving one is a true disciple.

​

 

[makeupgirl]

Its either eternal security or eternal insecurity
​

Jn.10:28 “I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, no one shall snatch them out of my hand.”
Rom.6:23 “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Jn.3:18 “He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Jn.5:24 “He that hears my word, and believes on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.” One is made spiritually alive by having true living faith.
The believer has (present tense) eternal life, he does not have judgment of his destiny but his works, as1 Cor. 3:10-15 says all that he has done may be burned but He Himself will receive eternal life. Why? because it is a free gift!
The presence of sin is always with us 1 Jn.1:8 “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. So it is continually there as the old nature. When someone is always walking in the flesh they are condemned because they are not enjoying the benefits of grace. This is why so many start to question their possessing salvation. 1 Jn.2:1 “I write to you that you may not sin and if anyone sins we have an advocate with the father.” We sin when we act upon the nature that is always present. When we give over to its desires it brings forth death Jm.1:14-15. As believers we now have a new nature dwelling inside us next to the old. This death James speaks about is not spiritual death. If that were true every time we sin we need to be reborn. Paul clarifies this by saying in Gal.6:8 “For he who sows to the flesh will of the flesh reap corruption but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap eternal life.”
Although sin is always with us: We have been saved from the penalty of sin by Christ’s death on the cross. We are presently being saved from the power of sin that tries to dominate us. We are no longer slaves but set free. We will finally be saved from the presence of sin when we are transformed to our eternal incorruptible bodies.

The meaning of eternal life means a present possession that continues throughout eternity. It is not eternal life for a day, a month, and a year. It means what it says, it is eternal life from God, who is also eternal. If one entertains the idea that eternal life has a limit then God will also cease. Because the same word describes both God's nature and the believers standing in Christ. One cannot undo their spiritual birth anymore than they can reverse their physical birth. (2 Cor.5:17, Gal.6:15, Eph.2:10)
God is not like men who who give only to take back; Titus 1:2: “In hope of eternal life which God who cannot lie, promised before time began.” Those who believe they can lose their salvation are usually those who felt they did something to gain it, that they have to keep it by their own deeds. To claim you lost your salvation by not doing something often means they received it by doing something. If works are interjected for salvation then there is no eternal security because it is always in the future tense. If salvation is dependent on what we do to keep it, then we have no assurance, because we all fall short in many things. Eternal life is a gift from God by His grace, not a command we keep.
We should have more confidence and faith than the Old Testament saints (Heb.11) because we have more revelation in the word to be assured of.
Rom.5:20-21...”But where sin increased grace abounded all the more.”
There is always more grace than there is sin, no matter what is done God is willing to cover our faults and sins. He doesn’t give up on anyone.
Rom.4:8 “Blessed is the man to whom the Lord does not impute sin.” In our forgiven position God does not charge us with what we owe. He does not count our sins against us otherwise no one would be able to stand before him.
Rom.8:30 tells us that who God justifies he will also glorify. (Rom.5:15-16 tells us justification is the free gift.) This is the future promise that he who began a good work in you will complete it Phil.1:6. In Heb12:2 it States “Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith. It's not dependent on us as much as it is on him. We cooperate with the work he is doing in us and through us.
Rom.8:1-9 this whole chapter is on the believers new relationship in the present and future with God. Vs.1 there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. vs.2-8 we are delivered from the law of sin and death by the death of Jesus fulfilling the spiritual obligation of the law.(Heb.7:18 tells us the Old Testament covenant was annulled 8:13 the 1st covenant he has made obsolete) vs.9-13 we now have the presence of Gods nature dwelling inside us that helps us live the Christian life. vs.14-17 the believer is now an heir of God. vs.28-29 God has a divine purpose for each believer as he conforms each to his son. vs.30-33 he has a united purpose for all and will bring to completion, no exceptions. There is nothing that can separate us from the love of God.
Eph.1:13 we are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise (gr. aurobon- means a down payment like an engagement ring) God does not break his promises we are engaged as the bride soon to be married. He has asked for our hand in the marriage. If we accept we are in an unconditional covenant relationship, meaning it is not dependent on us but on him.
2 Cor.1:22 “Set his seal of ownership on us and put his spirit in our hearts as a deposit guaranteeing what is to come. There are no refunds on his deposit.
Rom.8:9...If anyone does not have the spirit of Christ he does not belong to him.
1Cor. 3:16 “do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you.” The spirit is his assurance to us we are owned by him.

Assurance scriptures​

1 Jn.5:10: He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. V.11: And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12: He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 13: These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may believe on the name of the Son of God.” When we are weak in faith we will struggle with the promises.
Many say I don't feel secure-but you are, we can’t go on feelings. I haven't done enough to deserve salvation- but he’s given it as a free gift, so you don’t have to do anymore than when you first received him. I don't feel I'm living up to his expectations- repent and go back to your first love. Anything we have to say that reflects our falling short, God has a solution for. The root of the problem is that we don't really know our position in Christ and live by our condition.
So assured is our eternal life that it says we are already seated in heavenly places. (positionally)

1 Pt. 1:3-5 “Who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.”
This concept is further expanded by statements of being kept from falling or preserved until the day of Christ.

One cannot undo their spiritual birth anymore than they can undo their physical birth. Eph.4:30 says we are sealed until the day of redemption. The indwelling ministry of the Spirit is forever our eternal life is dependent upon him. Through the baptizing work of the Holy Spirit we are vitally joined to Christ and become part of his body. We are now citizens of heaven, a pilgrim to this world, a foreign resident just passing through. (Luke 10:20; 2 Cor. 5:20; Eph. 2:19; Phil.3:20; Heb. 12:19-20)

 

[makeupgirl]

He is the beginner and finisher of our faith​

Heb.5:9: “He is the author of eternal salvation to ALL WHO OBEY HIM.”
The first act of obedience is repentance, going from unbelief to belief, exercising faith in the Gospel. If you repent and believe this puts you in the new covenant, faith is obedience. Then one follows turning over their life daily to the Lord. As Paul said he dies daily, picking up the cross of suffering denying self and having Christ live his life through you.
Col. 1:20-23: “And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight-- if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard” Faith equals faithfulness, it is persevering. We must hold to the faith not be passive. Then he will “ present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight. It is not how you start the race but if you finish it.
Heb. 3:5-6 :“And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward, but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.” We show we are Saints by our persevering; faithfulness.
Proverbs says if a righteous man falls 7 times he will get up 7 times. Our part is to continue and God will be there for us, He will not forsake us.
There is always grace to those who are willing. 2 Tim 2:11-13 “This is a faithful saying: for if we died with Him, we shall also live with Him. If we endure, we shall also reign with Him. If we deny Him, he also will deny us. If we are faithless, he remains faithful; he cannot deny Himself.”
God will give his Holy Spirit to those who ask, He will always go further with us than we can with Him. Our co-operation is needed to have a victorious life of faith.

God is faithful to us.
1 Thess. 5:24:“He who calls you is faithful who will also do it.”
Jude 24 “Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy.”
This is why Paul starts off his letters with grace and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus. We depend on him to do the work in us by faith.
Phil.1:6: “Being confident of this very thing, that he who began a good work in you will complete it until the day of Christ Jesus.” vs.12...“Work out your own salvation in fear and trembling for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for his good pleasure.” Paul tells the church to bring to a completion what they already possess, their salvation, we cooperate for doing Gods will and having him glorified and our maturity.
While we are to continually confess our sins, it is not to obtain or keep salvation but for cleansing. Our fellowship with God and his people can be hindered and severed for a time but our union with Christ can never be taken away.
The same one who saves us is the one who keeps us. If maintaining our faith for salvation were dependent on us alone then none of us could be saved.
I Jn.5:1 gives us the promise “Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves him who begot also loves him who is begotten of him”vs.11 “and this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son...vs.13 these things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know you have eternal life, and that you may continue in the name of the Son of God.”

The only way one can know this is to...

 

[makeupgirl]

CONFUSING COMMANDSWITH SALVATION​

The Bible gives numerous commands- it tells us to pray always, does this mean if we fail to do this we lose our salvation. We are told to love the Lord our God with all of our heart, mind, soul and strength, no one is able to do this all the time. Does this mean we lose our salvation? Of course not.
If we look at the examples such as Peter who denied the Lord three times and disobeyed many times afterwards. If salvation depended solely upon his obedience he never would have made it and neither would we. What of Lot? He must have lost his salvation with his compromising and what he did to his daughters. 2 Pt.2:6-9 tells us Lot died a saved man. What about Samson? If anyone should lose their salvation for compromising and sin it would be him. Yet, Heb.11:32 tells us he died a saved man. What of Moses who disobeyed God once and was not allowed into the Promised Land, did he lose his salvation? No, he was physically punished, not spiritually punished. He appears with Elijah on the Mt. of Transfiguration discussing with Jesus His coming sacrifice, something he would not be able to do if he lost his salvation. So we must not assume that every time someone is judged in the body they are also judged spiritually.
What of David and his sins of adultery and murder? Surely the Bible teaches that no adulterer or murderer will enter the kingdom of heaven, but it is talking about one who continues to practice these things as a lifestyle without repentance. These acts did not lead to a loss of salvation because David repented (Ps.51:8-12) and he was cleared of all his sins. However he did reap problems as the sword never left his household. The book of Hebrews has all these individuals and others mentioned. The Bible never hides the faults nor shines the halos over its people. It tells both sides; the good, and the bad and the ugly. They are included in the Hebrews hall of faith and they received a good testimony inheriting the promise of eternal life with us. When we come to the New Testament. All the warnings are in reference to losing ones physical life and losing our rewards.
We have the example of Annanias and Sapphira. Just as in the Old Testament they were judged in the body losing their physical life. The Bible is silent on whether or not they forfeited their spiritual life. We assume they were saved being part of the church. Lying to the Holy Spirit should not be confused as with the blasphemy of the Spirit.
Last example and not the least is Judas Iscariot. It is assumed he was saved because he traveled with the other disciples but we know he was not. Jn.13:16-21 Jesus says he was not clean, in other words he heard the word but really did not believe it or act upon it. He did not have living faith. Jn.17:12 tells us no one will be lost, but the son of perdition, who is Judas. He fulfilled the position by the purposes of his own heart. At the last supper we find Judas did not partake of the wine (Christ's blood ) but only the bread (Jesus’ flesh) Jn.13:26-30. Mt.27:3-5. Later we find Judas is for his betrayal but it was not a godly sorrow that would lead to repentance or salvation. Acts 1:24-25 states that he fell from his potential position of apostleship not from salvation since he never possessed it. He never followed by his heart but only by the outward looking for a redeemer that would be political and overthrow Rome. He of course was trapped by his own coveting as he longed for money instead of truth.
There are also numerous commands that we are to keep not for salvation but for discipleship. There are also commands that apply to both, in Mk.8:34 Jesus states, “If any man would come after me, let him deny himself take up his cross and follow me.” This is a requirement for both salvation and discipleship as Paul admonishes in Rom. 6:1-11 “Reckon yourself dead to sin but alive to God.” Also in Mt.10:32-33 “To confess me before men and I will confess you before my father in heaven.” Is applied to our lifestyle if we are ashamed of him then he is not really alive working in our lives. This is not to be confused with a salvation confession in Rom.10:8-11.
Sometimes people rely on their feelings. We may feel something at the time of our new birth, we may not. As time goes on many do not feel saved, they have sinned feel ashamed and so they believe they need to ask Jesus again and again to save them. And they continue to come forward because they believe they have no assurance of salvation. This is because they do not understand what faith is and how it is placed in trusting Christ’s work on the cross. Salvation is by God’s grace in Christ's work and received through faith.

God saves a person based on their faith in response to the gospel message, we are justified by God (Rom. 3:24, 28), we are declared non guilty, clothed in Christ's righteousness and now accepted as His children. We are able to stand without guilt before His law that condemns all. Paul makes it clear that once God justifies the person, he cannot be condemned or lose his salvation (Rom. 8:1, 32, 33). However our salvation is not completed until we are glorified in God's presence. And this occurs at the end of the believer's life on earth or by the rapture/resurrection, whichever comes first (1 John 3:2; John 17:24; Rev. 21:3, 4). This is why we are admonished to persevere, there must be faithfulness in our life; which is an outworking of living faith. If someone does not make it to the end in faith were they saved? This why Heb. 4:1-3 says “Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word, which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: “So I swore in My wrath, they shall not enter My rest,” although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
With all the assurance Scripture we do not neglect the part we are to do either. We are admonished to persevere, there must be faithfulness in our life, which is an outworking of living faith. If someone does not make it to the end in faith were they saved? This why Paul compares this life to a race. 1 Cor. 9:24-27: “Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it. And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown. Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.” We must reach the end still in the faith not dropping out along the way.
Paul twice mentions a warning about running in vain Gal. 2:2: “And I went up by revelation, and communicated to them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to those who were of reputation, lest by any means I might run, or had run, in vain.” Phil. 2:16: “holding fast the word of life, so that I may rejoice in the day of Christ that I have not run in vain or labored in vain.”
2 Tim. 4:6-7: “For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure is at hand. I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.”​

The writers of Hebrews adds Heb. 12:1-2: “and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith and then explains Jesus fulfilling his mission by going to the cross.
To be in the faith means one will be faithful as the fruit of their trust. When one falls in sin they get right back up ask for cleansing. While we can wrestle over what the demarcation line is for losing salvation, we do know Scripture makes it clear the only unforgivable sin is the Blasphemy of the Spirit. 2 Pet. 2:20 says, “For if, after they have escaped the pollution's of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.” If one is questioning where they stand, they need only to repent and be renewed. 2 Tim. 2:21 “Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work.” Then, “These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that you may know that you have eternal life,” will be your assurance.



INFO via here

 

[Honi]

makeupgirl. I have to read this when I get back from Taekwando . I can't believe it either because all I can see is Christ and Him laying down his life. That's all I SEE. To believe otherwise is a slap in the face to what HE has done and therefore, has some believers having an under estimation of what HE IS.

Ok I'm rushing. Some of the scriptures in the book of Hebrews is talking to the Jew not the gentile. Not all parts of Scripture pertain to us but in Hebrews 6 and 10 there is reference to those that reject Him after having once known Him. This is the believer no longer believing and rejection salvation. Constant and consistent rejection will cause you to lose it.

 

[makeupgirl]

@makeupgirl. I have to read this when I get back from Taekwando . I can't believe it either because all I can see is Christ and Him laying down his life. That's all I SEE. To believe otherwise is a slap in the face to what HE has done and therefore, has some believers having an under estimation of what HE IS.

Ok I'm rushing. Some of the scriptures in the book of Hebrews is talking to the Jew not the gentile. Not all parts of Scripture pertain to us but in Hebrews 6 and 10 there is reference to those that reject Him after having once known Him. This is the believer no longer believing and rejection salvation. Constant and consistent rejection will cause you to lose it.

I understand. Have fun at Taekwando

 

[Iwanthealthyhair67]

My thoughts yes, one can loose his salvation, otherwise who are these people who did things in HIS name and will call on the Lord in the last day and HE will firmly declare that he knows them not...

Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound, God forbid...


It's dangerous to think that we can turn back on God and there are no consequences...

Ezekiel 18 (in fact from v.20 on down is very enlightening)
24 “But if a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked person does, will they live? None of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness they are guilty of and because of the sins they have committed, they will die.

Please don't tell me he was talking to the Israelites and not us, the unchanging God changes his mind for no man, we have inherited both the blessings and cursings only those who endureth till the end will be saved not those who change there minds along the way.

 

[Iwanthealthyhair67]

Remember this: Satan was saved once too, can I expect to see him receiving a golden crown on judgement day, God forbid.

If that is case then I might as well quit right now and live as my flesh sometimes wants to.

He give's us free will and doesn't force his will on us, he is a gentlemen, only those who are willing and obedient will eat the good fo the land...those who are faithful unto death will receive the Crown of Life.

 

[makeupgirl]

My thoughts yes, one can loose his salvation, otherwise who are these people who did things in HIS name and will call on the Lord in the last day and HE will firmly declare that he knows them not...

Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound, God forbid...


It's dangerous to think that we can turn back on God and there are no consequences...

Ezekiel 18 (in fact from v.20 on down is very enlightening)
24 “But if a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked person does, will they live? None of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness they are guilty of and because of the sins they have committed, they will die.

Please don't tell me he was talking to the Israelites and not us, the unchanging God changes his mind for no man, we have inherited both the blessings and cursings only those who endureth till the end will be saved not those who change there minds along the way.

With those he will say "Depart from me, I never knew you" those are the people who have claimed to be Christians but have no relationship with him. They are the Pharaisses (sp?) if you will. They are religious folk. Remember religion is man's attempt to reach God. So these people are doing everything they can to work to get into heaven, instead of what God tell us to do. Cain and Abel is a good example like this. Abel obeyed and offer the sacrifice that God wanted. Cain tried to offer his own thing, thus disobeying God. Their example is just one of the many examples leading up to the cross that will show how it's going to be, to show who is the church and who is of the world. If we could lose our salvation, truly lose it, then the bible would say it without sugarcoating. Plus, if we could lose our salvation, why would God put his Spirit in those who believe in him? Plus, Jesus said it is finished when he was on the cross, where he conquered death, hell, and the grave and most of all sin. He also died for past, present and future sins. (yep that image of little makeupgirl stealing that cookie from grandma's cookie jar and present time makeupgirl cussing out in her mind that has ticked her off was shown then) Even though the body of Christ are no longer sinners, we cannot escape sin. We still have that sinful nature that is always going to restle for control. This is why we was told to be filled with the Holy Spirit (Gal 5:16-17) Pray without ceasing; and 1 John 1:9. We can't lose our sonship. Just like when I make my mom mad, I don't lose my relationship with her; Im just briefly out of fellowship with her until I make things right and this is the same with our relationship with God.

 

[Galadriel]

This is truly a hot topic. What do I believe?

Once saved always saved.

Thanks for sharing! A lot of my college friends also have the same view .

Due to the fact that I did not do anything to EARN my salvation (works), then conversely I cannot do anything to UNEARN it (works) Eph 2:8-9.8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast

I agree that we do not earn salvation. It is a free gift from God. However, we must willfully accept Christ's redemption and have faith in Him. And if we can accept Christ, we can also reject Him.

-Jesus traded his righteousness for my unrighteousness once and for all (for sins past, present, and future) 2 Cor 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

True, but this does not support (or disprove) once saved always saved--it's just saying that Christ's sacrifice on the Cross is eternal and sufficient to redeem us.

-If we lost our salvation then God would not have made provision for us (believers) for when we do sin. 1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

What if we sin and refuse to confess? What if we sin and don't want to acknowledge it? If a Christian can sin, then he can commit mortal sin. I think the question of whether or not a Christian can lose his salvation hinges on our belief and understanding on (1) what sin is (2) the effect it has on us and (3) Hell

If I can lose my salvation then I live in fear that if I sin, I no longer have eternal life. So since most of us sin regularly (in thought and deed) then at any moment we may die and heaven becomes...the luck of the draw? If I fornicated then got hit by a car and died then hell is my home? No!

From my p.o.v: If a person had repented of it before getting hit by the car, he would finish getting cleansed in purgatory then go to heaven. If he did not repent, yes, he would go to Hell.

-The Word often talks about not inheriting the kingdom due to different sinful acts...

The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. (Gal 5:19-21)

This is not referring to heaven or eternal life as the kingdom of God, but to the life we live here on earth. Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

I believe (Gal. 5:19-21) refers to Heaven and Hell. In Revelation, these people are also shut out.

-Salvation does not equal living right (if that were the case then anyone who lived a "good" life could go to heaven and wouldnt need Jesus). Salvation is being saved from the damnation we are owed due to our sins. Not because we earned it...but simply because God is so gracious that he knew the ONLY way to guarantee our place in heaven was to let us borrow Jesus' righteousness-cause even our rightousness is as filthy rags Isaiah 64:6 and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags. Even our sanctification and holiness (trying to live right) is not good enough to secure salvation.


I don't expect everyone to agree with that but it is what I understand the Word to say, what we have been taught in my Church, and what I truly believe based on the scriptures.

CoilyFields what would you (or your church/theology) define as sin? What is Justification and Sanctification? what is Hell, and who goes there?

(I ask these b/c I think our Yay or Nay on the question hinges on our underlying views on sin, salvation, and Hell)

 

[makeupgirl]

Remember this: Satan was saved once too, can I expect to see him receiving a golden crown on judgement day, God forbid.

If that is case then I might as well quit right now and live as my flesh sometimes wants to.

He give's us free will and doesn't force his will on us, he is a gentlemen, only those who are willing and obedient will eat the good fo the land...those who are faithful unto death will receive the Crown of Life.

Actually, Satan was never a follower of Christ to begin with. Satan/Lucifer was created just like Adam, Eve, and all of the angels in heaven but despite the perfect place that he was in, he chose to go rogue and tried to exalt himself higher than his creator and was cast out. Plus, Satan couldn't have been saved then because there was no need for a savior yet. We didn't need a Savior until Adam's sin, thus is the reason why Christ died to reverse what happen so we could be reconciled back to God.

Satan fate was already sealed from the very beginning and is destined for the Lake of Fire.

 

[Galadriel]

It's impossible to just completely stop sinning,

We're going to have to at some point. Souls in Heaven don't sin at all.

 

[makeupgirl]

We're going to have to at some point. Souls in Heaven don't sin at all.

That's why we're getting a new body when we go. (side note**im so looking forward to this. No more diabetes, periods, PMS, bipolar, acne, etc. lol)

Phil 3:20:"For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:"

Phil 3:21:"Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself."

Also 1 Cor 15: 35-49

A Glorious Body (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+15&version=NKJV)

35 But someone will say, “How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?” 36 Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies. 37 And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain—perhaps wheat or some other grain. 38 But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind of flesh[c] of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.”[d] The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord[e] from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear[f] the image of the heavenly Man.

 

[Galadriel]

That's why we're getting a new body when we go. (side note**im so looking forward to this. No more diabetes, periods, PMS, bipolar, acne, etc. lol)

I am so with you on that. Do you believe we'll have a glorified body when we die and go to heaven? Or at the resurrection?

 

[Nice & Wavy]

Remember this: Satan was saved once too, can I expect to see him receiving a golden crown on judgement day, God forbid.

If that is case then I might as well quit right now and live as my flesh sometimes wants to.

He give's us free will and doesn't force his will on us, he is a gentlemen, only those who are willing and obedient will eat the good fo the land...those who are faithful unto death will receive the Crown of Life.

Actually, Satan was never a follower of Christ to begin with. Satan/Lucifer was created just like Adam, Eve, and all of the angels in heaven but despite the perfect place that he was in, he chose to go rogue and tried to exalt himself higher than his creator and was cast out. Plus, Satan couldn't have been saved then because there was no need for a savior yet. We didn't need a Savior until Adam's sin, thus is the reason why Christ died to reverse what happen so we could be reconciled back to God.

Satan fate was already sealed from the very beginning and is destined for the Lake of Fire.

Ok...ya'll have got to explain this to me.

Man (includes Adam and Eve) was made in the image and likeness of God...satan was not.

Satan was an angel (created being) whom got kicked out of heaven. (we know the story...as lightening)

Jesus laid down His life to save mankind (remember, He doesn't want any to perish but all to come to repentance.)

So, I ask this:

How was satan saved? And, when did he become a man?

Thanks in advance!

 

[Iwanthealthyhair67]

Ok...ya'll have got to explain this to me.

Man (includes Adam and Eve) was made in the image and likeness of God...satan was not.

Satan was an angel (created being) whom got kicked out of heaven. (we know the story...as lightening)

Jesus laid down His life to save mankind (remember, He doesn't want any to perish but all to come to repentance.)

So, I ask this:

How was satan saved? And, when did he become a man?

Thanks in advance!

Okay I apologize for my over zealousness it brings error and misunderstanding, Satan once served God and that was the point
point I was trying to make.

 

[Nice & Wavy]

Okay I apologize for my over zealousness it brings error and misunderstanding, Satan once served God and that was the point
point I was trying to make.

Thanks for answering...I was wondering, but you cleared it up for me

Btw, never stop being zealous....it becomes you!

N&W

 

[Iwanthealthyhair67]

Love you back more...

Over zealousness and poor choice in wording can lead to harsh rebuke...by the way if I'm in need by all means...

 

[Nice & Wavy]

Love you back more...

Over zealousness and poor choice in wording can lead to harsh rebuke...by the way if I'm in need by all means...

I didn't mean to give you a harsh rebuke...If I did, I'm sorry :Rose:

 

[Iwanthealthyhair67]

I didn't mean to give you a harsh rebuke...If I did, I'm sorry :Rose:

Now I'm sorry times two, trust that I didn't take it that way at all....just letting u know that I would welcome if it was necessary.

 

[Honi]

makeupgirl that was enlightening. Thank you so much for that.

Hebrews was directed to the Jews that had accepted Christ and was written to encourage them in Christianity. The unsaved Jews who were still wavering on whether to accept Christ or not willing to commit were in danger of abandoning Christ's teachings all together as a faith and slipping back into Judiasm and therefore into judgment.

Chapter 3 reminds the Jews that Christ as the Son of God was above Moses, therefore His Word was final and His sacrifice sufficient.

Chapter 6 warns against mixing law and grace. Do not taste the work of the Spirit and then go back to ceremonies of the Law. There is no more sacrificing bulls and goats.

6:4 - It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen[c] away, to be brought back to repentance.

This reference is for the Hebrews that were FULLY enlightened in the prophecies about Christ having seen Him, His signs, miracles and wonders, the works of the Holy Spirit, His resurrection and still reject Him. It is not for the believer because we have received His heavenly gift and not "tasted". Only one comes to mind that rejected Him....Judas.

Now….

Any unsaved Jew that persists in moving away from the truth and light they have already received in Christ Jesus and rejects the Gospel they can expect nothing but judgment from God.

Hebrews 10:26 - If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

 

[makeupgirl]

Actually, Satan was never a follower of Christ to begin with. Satan/Lucifer was created just like Adam, Eve, and all of the angels in heaven but despite the perfect place that he was in, he chose to go rogue and tried to exalt himself higher than his creator and was cast out. Plus, Satan couldn't have been saved then because there was no need for a savior yet. We didn't need a Savior until Adam's sin, thus is the reason why Christ died to reverse what happen so we could be reconciled back to God.

Satan fate was already sealed from the very beginning and is destined for the Lake of Fire.

Ok...ya'll have got to explain this to me.

Man (includes Adam and Eve) was made in the image and likeness of God...satan was not.

Satan was an angel (created being) whom got kicked out of heaven. (we know the story...as lightening)

Jesus laid down His life to save mankind (remember, He doesn't want any to perish but all to come to repentance.)

So, I ask this:

How was satan saved? And, when did he become a man?

Thanks in advance!

Good morning

I was in such a hurry last night trying to finish my work that I probably worded it wrong. I meant that Satan is a created being, even though he wasn't made in the image of God, he was still a created being like everyone else. (if I"m wrong, feel free to correct me )

But no Satan was never saved and never became a man; so there was no need for him to be saved anyway even if possible, because he sealed his own fate upon his rebellion. (was that a dumb thing for him to do or what?)

 

[makeupgirl]

@makeupgirl that was enlightening. Thank you so much for that.

Hebrews was directed to the Jews that had accepted Christ and was written to encourage them in Christianity. The unsaved Jews who were still wavering on whether to accept Christ or not willing to commit were in danger of abandoning Christ's teachings all together as a faith and slipping back into Judiasm and therefore into judgment.

Chapter 3 reminds the Jews that Christ as the Son of God was above Moses, therefore His Word was final and His sacrifice sufficient.

Chapter 6 warns against mixing law and grace. Do not taste the work of the Spirit and then go back to ceremonies of the Law. There is no more sacrificing bulls and goats.

6:4 - It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen[c] away, to be brought back to repentance.

This reference is for the Hebrews that were FULLY enlightened in the prophecies about Christ having seen Him, His signs, miracles and wonders, the works of the Holy Spirit, His resurrection and still reject Him. It is not for the believer because we have received His heavenly gift and not "tasted". Only one comes to mind that rejected Him....Judas.

Now….

Any unsaved Jew that persists in moving away from the truth and light they have already received in Christ Jesus and rejects the Gospel they can expect nothing but judgment from God.

Hebrews 10:26 - If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

You're welcome and your post was enlightening, as well. I haven't been able to attend bible study at my church since my schedule at work changed, so I enjoy the discussions with everyone.

 

[CoilyFields]

@CoilyFields what would you (or your church/theology) define as sin? What is Justification and Sanctification? what is Hell, and who goes there?

(I ask these b/c I think our Yay or Nay on the question hinges on our underlying views on sin, salvation, and Hell)

1. Sin is any thought, action, attitude, desire or position that is in disobedience to God and his divine law.

2. Justification is the act of being declared righteous-in right standing with God.

3. Sanctification is the process by which we become more holy (sin less and do more good).

4. Hell is a place of eternal seperation from God. A place of torment for those who choose not to accept Jesus as their savior. (There are different degrees of torment in hell just as there are different degrees of rewards in heaven)

How do these work together?

We are housed in bodies of sin (sinful nature) and continuously break Gods laws.

God declared that the wages of sin is death (eternal seperation from God in hell) so we were all headed straight to hell because of our sinful nature (when we break one law we are gulity of breaking all).

Jesus died on the cross to free us from the ultimate penalty of sin (hell). He did this by trading his righteousness for our unrighteousness, thereby justifying us before God. So for those who believe...when God looks at us, He sees the righteousness of His son and declares us righteous, securing our eternal destination, heaven.

But while here on earth we have a part to play. Sanctification is us, by the power of the Holy ghost, doing our part to become more like God (working out -or choosing to live in the reality of-our soul salvation, enduring until the end etc.). This includes prayer, obedience to His word, studying, repenting for sins, doing good works etc. Though we are no longer slaves to sin...we still sin and will not be completely free from our sinful nature until death. And while we are still here on earth we will reap in this life what we sow...present consequences/rewards and the un/fulfilling of certain promises God gave.

Galadriel , where do you/catholicsm differ on the above doctrines (sin, sanctification, justification, and hell)


It seems as though there are a couple different view points going on concerning losing one's salvation.

1. You can lose it if you believe in Jesus but commit certain sins.

2. You can lose it if you believe in Jesus and commit a sin that you do not repent for before you die.

3. You can believe then choose not to believe and therefore give back your salvation.

I'm not sure if everyone is adhering to all of the above or some.

 

[Nice & Wavy]

Good morning

I was in such a hurry last night trying to finish my work that I probably worded it wrong. I meant that Satan is a created being, even though he wasn't made in the image of God, he was still a created being like everyone else. (if I"m wrong, feel free to correct me )

But no Satan was never saved and never became a man; so there was no need for him to be saved anyway even if possible, because he sealed his own fate upon his rebellion. (was that a dumb thing for him to do or what?)

No problem