Why the desire to use the word "curls" in reference to kinky natural hair?

[Solitude]

I don't say curly, wavy, kinky, coily and definitely not nappy (i think it's rude). I've always just said that i have afro hair, simple.

Yeah, I've always liked "afro-textured" hair. That always seemed to be an accurate description of most of the hair types we discuss on this board.

 

[Mercie]

It still is a curl.
It's not like kinky hair is straight hair.
Kinky hair is just a hair texture with very tight curls.

I refer to my natural hair texture as kinky. I don't have a problem with saying it, and I don't see whats wrong with someone with kinky hair saying that they have curls.

 

[ajoyfuljoy]

It has been very interesting to read everyone's responses to this thread. I've enjoyed the discussion and variety of responses so far

 

[Geminigirl]

Ajoyfuljoy, I agree with you. Sometimes I jsut really think people are in denial and using that language supports it (especially when people start talking about defining their "curls" or making them "pop").

was about to hop out of this thread but ran over this post. I must say I know I am a type 4. not sure what letter but probably all of them. I say "Defining my curls" and "making them pop". Sure do because I can do that. I usually refer to my hair as coily BUT my coils are small spiral curls no? So if you see someone with looser spiral curls is their hair "curly" and mines not? What's the difference? My hair is textured and not silky? My "curls" are smaller and tighter so I have kinky hair and theirs is curly?

Honestly I don't care what anyone thinks about how I choose to describe my hair. You describe you hair the way you want and I will describe mines the way I want. I don't care about good hair bad hair I love all hair that is healthy. I am not trying to be something I am not and I am not indenial. I love love LOVE my hair and I will describe it anyway I want. I do believe that you can define my waves and coils and I do believe my hair can POP just like anyone elses. When I put my KCCC in my hair, coils pop up that I didn't even know existed, I have more defintion and my hair just looks really nice. So I don't think it's wrong to use those terms. That's JMO though.


(not all of this directed at msa just starting speaking in general...and rambling.)

 

[AwesomelyNappy]

Tom-A-to, Tom-AH-to

Curl are Coils.

so i'm getting that if you have small curls, its ok to call it coils. if you have small coils, its ok to call it kinks. if you like nappy, call it naps then. whatever....

I call my hair what I call it depending on how it looks, how i feel... sometimes I call it brillo, a kitchen, a comb breaker, the don king... especially when I sleep on it without properly setting it the night before. I wake up to a terribly matted mess... oh, I also call it a mess some times... doesn't mean i think of it in a negative way or that I have issues when I call it what I call it on those days...

I LOVE my hair. every nappy, coily, curl on my head. I love it, and the only thing I'd change is for it to be longer. I love it so much, I want more of it!!!


Sometimes I think its 4a, sometimes the front looks 3b. sometimes my curls "pop" (and why is "poping the curl" such a bad thing to say?), sometimes it looks like cotton candy. Sometimes its wavy, sometimes its very curly and defined. Sometimes it looks like a tangled mess, some times it looks like a coil-out. Sometimes its a mix of a lot of different textures and I think that my hair has multiple personalities.

I dont think less than(when I use so called bad words to describe it) or greater than (when I uses so called positive words like curly or 3-x) of my hair. When I describe it, its based on how I feel, how it looks and how my mood is (frustrated with detangling, goofy, happy, sad because its not doing what I want... excited when it does what I want...) what word my tongue picks out from my vocabulary that best describes what it is I see and feel on my head... shouldn't bother anyone...

I think that, yes, some folks have deeply rooted hair issues and may try to "talk up" their situation despite what our eyes see as reality... but not all people (knowingly) does that. if you say your hair has big 3 curls, when its really 4a coils, then maybe thats what that person really believes based on their interpretation on hair knowledge... few things-if not-nothing (to do with hair) is written in stone. There is no law that says 4a IS 4a or 3c IS 3c or that 4b cant have curls. most people on hair sites cant even agree on what each type really is (i still dont realllllly know my own hair type)... perception is a beast! But I wont get upset if someone erplexed at me for me calling my "cottony" hair "curls" instead of "kinks" or if because I have a 1x1 cubic inch of a patch of 3a "curls" hair behind my ears, so I call all my whole head of (4b "coils") hair 3b... if thats is what I believe. to each their own. (ignorance is bliss, and maybe I just wanted to be happy that day!)

All I know is, I love my hair... and it goes by many names!


sorry if I got off topic or crazy... I cant sleep tonight!

 

[Fine 4s]

I tend to not use the word 'curl' to describe my hair.

 

[Morenita]

Short Answer: Because for many of us, curls are just as accurate of a descriptor for our hair as "kinky" or "nappy" are. It is all extremely subjective, much like hair typing. I personally find those words too deeply rooted in negative history to refer to my own hair with them, but to each their own. I just don't buy into the whole reclaiming a word movement.

This is Teri, a very popular idol on this board and others. Here is her hair when it was uncared for:

Here is her hair now:

Would you describe it as kinky, nappy, or curly? It's simply a matter of preference, viewpoint, and personal opinion.

 

[song_of_serenity]

Short Answer: Because for many of us, curls are just as accurate of a descriptor for our hair as "kinky" or "nappy" are. It is all extremely subjective, much like hair typing. I personally find those words too deeply rooted in negative history to refer to my own hair with them, but to each their own. I just don't buy into the whole reclaiming a word movement.

This is Teri, a very popular idol on this board and others. Here is her hair when it was uncared for:

Here is her hair now:

Would you describe it as kinky, nappy, or curly? It's simply a matter of preference, viewpoint, and personal opinion.

So true. A lot of folk would if "little" girl Teri described her hair as "curly" and give the same look if she described it NOW as nappy. Same head of hair.

 

[ajoyfuljoy]

delete delete delete

 

[silvergirl]

i dont know...

i dont use nappy to describe frizzy hair, to me if terry has a similar texture to my hair then when her hair was in that first photo she probably could still run her fingers through it.. so to me thats not nappy hair thats just curly hair frizzed up. .......

my definition of nappy is very thick, very condensed hair. hers looks lite and fluffy the way most type 3 hair looks if you mess it up.

 

[snillohsss]

I say curly. Why? Well its curly. I don't say coils...mainly because it isn't a word that I readily think of.

 

[Ediese]

So true. A lot of folk would if "little" girl Teri described her hair as "curly" and give the same look if she described it NOW as nappy. Same head of hair.

Yep...they'd probably think she was in denial, and doing too much to define her 'curls and make it 'pop'. lol

 

[song_of_serenity]

i dont know...

i dont use nappy to describe frizzy hair, to me if terry has a similar texture to my hair then when her hair was in that first photo she probably could still run her fingers through it.. so to me thats not nappy hair thats just curly hair frizzed up. .......

my definition of nappy is very thick, very condensed hair. hers looks lite and fluffy the way most type 3 hair looks if you mess it up.

But see, I wonder if we didn't see the "after" if folk would be quick to come to an outcome. Or would we just see type 4 "kinky" hair and make an assumption then.

Yep...they'd probably think she was doing too much to make her 'curls pop'. lol

Everytime I'll see the phrase "curls pop" I'm going to laugh. I dunno, it's grown to sound funny to me in light of this thread!

I know someone with a certain hairtype (C-nap I guess?) and you can slap gel, s curl, run a denman with conditioner through it a thousand times and no curls will come. You have to HAVE in order to...well...end up having.

I know "curly hair" gives many a mental image of loose 3ish curls so I understand both sides.

As for RECLAIMING the word "nappy?" While I have no problem with anyone using the word, come on. RECLAIMING a word that was FIRSTLY used as a negative thing? What? Reclaiming negativity? I'm not going to recycle some idiots insult to me and "spin it" to make it positive. We aren't short any words in this abundant english language that I can't steal massa's word and use it for myself, ie "nig**r" and all the varieties of it. UGH.

 

[melodies815]

Okaaaayyyy........

I came to LHCF not knowing how to take care of my hair. As I learned from the experienced women here on this board, I was able to BC and go natural...taking great care of my hair while I decided whether I would transition or just take the plunge and cut off all the hair with a relaxer in it.

After my BC, it was beautiful for me to learn that Aloe Vera Gel and shea butter could have random people coming up to me to say things like, "Oooohh your hair is so curly. How did you do that?" Or...."Do you have a texturizer?" or "What did you put in your hair????" I never thought my hair could do some of the things that it does now that it is properly moisturized all the time.

I personally have a problem with the word nappy because, like many others have iterated on this post, the word has not historically been used in a positive manner to describe textured or ethnic hair. I'm sure it's not completely the same, but "reclaiming" the word to me is like trying to reclaim the word ni**er as something positive. I know my comparison is in the extreme, but it is how I feel. I feel very strongly about this.

To say that I should maybe call my hair nappy because that is what it is is like closing a huge window filled with sunlight just to make sure I am in the dark again for the satisfaction of someone else. I am not trying to "pass" with my hair, and I am sure no one else here is either. African American hair comes in so many textures, and for people who have struggled with loving their hair...well....to learn how to take care of it and to find that there are curls there - no matter how small or loose - only to be told that they should embrace terms that may not fully describe their hair...well...

...I don't know...I feel like someone is trying to take something precious from me, something I have gained from hours and days of reading and washing and conditioning and doing all that we know now to do to have hair in its best health and, therefore, appearance.

I don't like that feeling at all. No one has the right to tell me that if I call my curls curls that I am deluded or deceived. I am not. Now, to be clear, the sides of my head are more tightly coiled than the top and back, but I still can see tiny curls there without working at it.

This morning, my husband rubbed his fingers through my hair and told me..."Your hair is amazing. I never knew it looked like this..."

I didn't say this of myself. Someone who loved me said it...and he said it having previously thought my hair was "nappy." There was NOTHING positive about his former ideas about my hair.

If someone calls their hair curly, I think it's because it is...whether those curls are tight or loose...and I think we have all gained a tremendous education being here on this board. I would hope that no one would want to take away the gains we've gotten through being educated on our hair just to "keep it real" or to lessen anyone's irritation about which terms we use. What is even more interesting to me is that ethnic hair continues to change in appearance as it grows. As we saw earlier, what might appear to be kinky when short might actually prove to be curly or wavy when long...

(I would prefer the term kinky to nappy. I find kinky to be a beautiful term.)

(Last thing: I did not want to even post here because this thread troubles me deeply for reasons I cannot yet fully understand. I think I want to say thank you to the OP, but I'm not sure yet...) ohwell:

cj

 

[Spongie Bloom]

This is a good point. The image of curly as we know it is very Eurocentric. Historically it is viewed as a very loose coil or wave. Yet that is not the true definition. We have created our own definitions to describe our hair which is definitely distinct from European. What's wrong with expanding the definition to include the description of our hair as curly (as by definition it already does) vs. rejecting the definition altogether. Is it because no one else accepts it? Why do Europeans have to have a lock on curly?

ETA: While still embracing all if the other unique terms to describe our hair.

This basically sums it up my definition of curly is not eurocentric, I grew up in South Africa when i think curly I do not think Julia Roberts I think from big curls (like that Ethiopian model Bekelele (is that her name ) to tiny coils its all curls

 

[sharifeh]

I totally agree with the analogy of the word nappy with the other n word
I think we need to reclaim the word curly not the word nappy

 

[Junebug D]

Before anybody gets thoughts in their heads, I just wanted to add that Teri's hair was NOT merely "uncared for" in that photo. It was not natural either. It had chemical damage:

The one time my mom took me to a hairdresser, the hairdresser cut off all my hair and gave me a Jheri curl on top of my relaxer. After that, everyone sort of threw their hands up in the air, and I began trying to take care of it myself. I’d just brush it and pat it into a roundish shape

No one should assess texture based on chemically altered hair, even if it looks natural.

 

[ajoyfuljoy]

Okaaaayyyy........

I came to LHCF not knowing how to take care of my hair. As I learned from the experienced women here on this board, I was able to BC and go natural...taking great care of my hair while I decided whether I would transition or just take the plunge and cut off all the hair with a relaxer in it.

After my BC, it was beautiful for me to learn that Aloe Vera Gel and shea butter could have random people coming up to me to say things like, "Oooohh your hair is so curly. How did you do that?" Or...."Do you have a texturizer?" or "What did you put in your hair????" I never thought my hair could do some of the things that it does now that it is properly moisturized all the time.

I personally have a problem with the word nappy because, like many others have iterated on this post, the word has not historically been used in a positive manner to describe textured or ethnic hair. I'm sure it's not completely the same, but "reclaiming" the word to me is like trying to reclaim the word ni**er as something positive. I know my comparison is in the extreme, but it is how I feel. I feel very strongly about this.

To say that I should maybe call my hair nappy because that is what it is is like closing a huge window filled with sunlight just to make sure I am in the dark again for the satisfaction of someone else. I am not trying to "pass" with my hair, and I am sure no one else here is either. African American hair comes in so many textures, and for people who have struggled with loving their hair...well....to learn how to take care of it and to find that there are curls there - no matter how small or loose - only to be told that they shoud embrace terms that may not fully describe their hair...well...

...I don't know...I feel like someone is trying to take something precious from me, something I jhave gained from hours and days of reading and washng and conditioning and doing all that we know now to do to have hair in its best health and, therefore, appearance.

I don't like that feeling at all. No one has the right to tell me that if I call my curs curls that I am deluded or deceived. I am not. Now, to be clear, the sides of my head are more tightly coiled than the top and back, but I still can see tiny curls there without working at it.

This morning, my husband rubbed his fingers through my hair and told me..."Your hair is amazing. I never knew it looked like this..."

I didn't say this of myself. Someone who loved me said it...and he said it having previously thought my hair was "nappy." There was NOTHING positive about his former ideas about my hair.

If someone calls their hair curly, I think it's because it is...whether those curls are tight or loose...and I think we have all gained a tremendous education being here on this board. I would hope that no one would want to take away the gains we've gotten through being educated on our hair just to "keep it real" or to lessen anyone's irritation about which terms we use. What is even more interesting to me is that ethnic hair continues to change in appearance as it grows. As we saw earlier, what might appear to be kinky when short might actually prove to be curly or wavy when long...

(I would prefer the term kinky to nappy. I find kinky to be a beautiful term.)

(Last thing: I did not want to even post here because this thread troubled me deeply for reasons I cannot yet fully understand. I think I want to say thank you to the OP, but I'm not sure yet...) ohwell:

cj

That's cool. I've always wondered about this question but had no clue that it would generate so many varied responses. Nevertheless I have enjoyed reading everyone's opinions from around the globe. It really gives me a lot of perspective and I like seeing all the different "angles" so I hope the thread doesn't trouble you in any way. It wasn't meant to be a type war or anything like that...just a discussion about words used and why.

 

[Maracujá]

I refer to my hair as kinky/nappy/coily.

 

[Whimsy]

I use the word curly to describe my hair because my hair is curly.

 

[Whimsy]

um..off topic... spongie bloom you are FREAKING GORGEOUS!!!!! i LOVE that profile shot in your signature

 

[MonPetite]

Curly.

Because it is. I have coils around my hair line, though, so sometimes I say "coils and curls". My curls get fatter and longer with length. Around a foot they reach finger diameter.

I thought "kink" was to denote a texture that lacks a set curl or coil pattern.

Either way it's all beautiful. To each her own.

 

[JinaRicci]

Maybe we need a new word?

I say curly because technically that's what it is- hair that twists back on itself. Since I started this HHJ, I've learned so much (especially from you ladies) and one of the most striking things is the similarity b/w all curly hair including with those of european descent. To me whether there is a distinct or obvious 'curl pattern' the hair is still curly b/c of the internal structure of the hair.

Now kinky & coily seem to mean the same thing.. *shrugs*... we always put our own spin on things. Nappy- to me- not so much- it's been said- trying to reverse such a negative? my energy is better spent elsewhere. What I don't understand (and never knew- thanks OP) is the exception some would take to the use of the word curly for all types of... well curly hair.

 

[andromeda]

This has probably already been said in one form or another, but I want to add my thoughts...

There are people who have identity/self-love issues with their hair which manifest in them describing their hair as curly as a sort of coping mechanism.

However the above in no way reflects on those with highly-textured hair who describe their hair as "curly" bc curly is curly regardless of how small the curls, regardless of how other people have associated curls with a certain texture/size, regardless of the fact term is used by others with their own issues.

There were people throughout history, white and black, who used "nappy", an inherently innocuous term, to describe and deride the hair of those that they felt superior to or were contemptuous of. By doing so the word's connotation was tainted with hate but the definition wasn't originally offensive and this denotation will never change.

However, the above in no way reflects on those with highly-textured hair who describe hair (on their head or other's) as "nappy" bc nappy is an apt descriptor of the soft/fuzzy/coarse/dense tufts of hair that reside on their head regardless of if these naps are actually microscopic curls or kinks, regardless of other people's use of the word throughout history, regardless of other people's issues with the word.

Conversely, the above is obviously an influence on those who use "nappy" with the motivation to reclaim it. In their use of the word, they acknowledge the history of the word and are seeking to carve out a new future for it. As melodies noted, the analogy between reclaiming "nappy" and reclaiming "******" isn't completely accurate but it does speak to the intense emotions both evoke. However, it must be acknowledged that "nappy" isn't inherently derogatory, while "N****" is, lest we wrongly group reclaimers of the former with those of latter.

 

[doll-baby]

My hair does not have curls not even with product, it's more of a frizz, so I call it kinky.

 

[melodies815]

nappy (adj.) "downy," 1499, from nap (n.). Meaning "fuzzy, kinky," used in colloquial or derogatory ref. to the hair of black people

I believe that the word "nappy" was originally intended to be used in a derogatory manner, thus I reject it outright. It is not as harsh as the N- word, but its origins are the same. As someone said before, I don't want to embrace something negative and put a happy spin on it. I think my comparison, though extreme, was accurate.

To the OP, I now know why I wanted to thank you. This is a great thread. I know you are just curious and are not trying to start a "Type" war. Please know that my discomfort originates with me and me alone...and maybe some others here feel it as well. It's a good thing to write about here. In a live setting, it might turn into an argument for no reason, but here, we have to think about our words carefully, and make a choice before submitting. Thanks for this...

Today, I find myself thinking about things like...

...why people with curls will still call their hair nappy when its clear that they have curls (again, no matter how small, the curls/coils are still there. Maybe self-hatred in reverse...trying to fit a profile of being black with "black hair" when our hair is more diverse than just the one texture ascribed to it by the majority. If I put a comb in my wet hair, I will look like an unkempt, crazy poodle, but if I leave it alone after conditioning, my curls pop - sorry to those who hate that term....)

...will I even care about this debate when my hair is really long?!? I notice that the majority of the BSL-WL women are not even here. They are clear on their textures maybe because length has made it clear to them who they are, and this conversation is pointless for many of them. I don't know...just guessing. Feel free to chime in, long haired ladies! Quite possibly, we only think and wonder these things (myself included) because our hair has not reached the point where terms and others' opinions don't sway us at all. Maybe this conversation is part of the journey of growing longer, healthier, ethnic hair. I don't enjoy this particular conversation AT ALL; it makes me uncomfortable, but I can see why I need to work this stuff out of my heart and mind...

...what do white people really think about our hair? Maybe I shouldn't wonder about white people. Maybe I should wonder what anyone who is not black thinks about back hair. I do business with these people and enjoy their conversation and what they bring to my life. I hope I bring something to theirs as well. Though business is really good, I might find that what they think can inform me of why I sometimes lose an account that seemed to be going so well. Maybe it does not matter. I just don't know yet...

So...you have me thinking, Miss Lady! Thanks for that. This is a great discussion taking place, and I am glad for LHCF that we can talk about these things without fussing and share our thoughts with one another. I know we don't all agree, but that makes it all the more "good for the soul." (Thanks for your well-worded comment, Rosa.)

Well, we are on holiday in Jamaica and have a full day ahead of us, so I am going to jump off of here. Thanks again, JoyfulJoy.

HHG to us all,

cj

 

[anon123]

I don't know what to call anything anymore. Seriously, hair boards have gotten me so confused. If someone had told me, pre-hair boards, to meet them and said "I'm the girl with the curly hair" and I went to find her and saw someone standing there with my hair, I would have kept on looking. I just had never referred to anyone with hair similar to mine as "curly" nor had anyone refer to my hair that way. So now that I'm on hair boards, I have to readjust.

Technically, I guess it is a "curl". What is a curl? Does it just mean it goes 360 degrees? It's like I don't even speak English any more. I think almost all of our hair is kinky. So even if it is curly, it's not a smooth curl; the curl itself has kinks (bends) in it.

 

[Solitude]

melodies & rosa - both of your points were quite elegantly written.

 

[FlowerHair]

Yeah, I've always liked "afro-textured" hair. That always seemed to be an accurate description of most of the hair types we discuss on this board.

Yes, I like that word too, because it can describe anything from a 2 to a 4

There's a difference between afro textured 2b and European 2b for example.
Their hair lacks that extra oomph

 

[FlowerHair]

Short Answer: Because for many of us, curls are just as accurate of a descriptor for our hair as "kinky" or "nappy" are. It is all extremely subjective, much like hair typing. I personally find those words too deeply rooted in negative history to refer to my own hair with them, but to each their own. I just don't buy into the whole reclaiming a word movement.

This is Teri, a very popular idol on this board and others. Here is her hair when it was uncared for:

Here is her hair now:

Would you describe it as kinky, nappy, or curly? It's simply a matter of preference, viewpoint, and personal opinion.

Ooohh...I recognize myself!

My mom used to wash my hair with shampoo only, no conditioner, no hair creams, no butters, no oils, no nada. To top it off, she brushed it out daily! My hair didn't look quite like Teri's hair, but I never ever thought my hair could look the way it does now with just some moisture and leaving it alone. I didn't even know I had curls...it was just bushy.