Why do a lot of "hydrating" products have keratin protein?

[gymfreak336]

Okay, from a chemical standpoint......

Just because protein is in a product, doesn't make it a protein conditioner.

Hair needs protein to hold moisture. A protein molecule has a carboxyl end and an amine end. One end can be pronated with a water molecule. Hence the reason why a great moisture product has a protein in it. If the protein has a low molecular weight, that can help drive moisture deeper into the hair strand, especially given the porosity of that hair.

Also the OVERALL formula determines the end result. Yes concentration is listed in order but what you don't know is the orginal concentration of each ingredient. You also don't know the synergistic reactions that might be occuring in the product between certain additives. Those are things that you can't just know from looking at the ingredients without having a very strong inorganic and organic chemistry background and more information from the company.

Other ingredients in a product can buffer the effects of something of intensify the effects. Also, some things don't need to used in a high concentration to affect the final product. It depends on their purpose and the other components that have a similar or complentary function. For example, when you bake a cake, you don't have to use 1/4 cup of baking soda,you usually only need a 1 teaspoon or so. Depending on the other ingredients in the cake, you might need more, you might need less but you still get the final result of a properly cooked cake.

Reading ingredients is more complicated than we think.

 

[Nice & Wavy]

Okay, from a chemical standpoint......

Just because protein is in a product, doesn't make it a protein conditioner.

Hair needs protein to hold moisture. A protein molecule has a carboxyl end and an amine end. One end can be pronated with a water molecule. Hence the reason why a great moisture product has a protein in it. If the protein has a low molecular weight, that can help drive moisture deeper into the hair strand, especially given the porosity of that hair.

Also the OVERALL formula determines the end result. Yes concentration is listed in order but what you don't know is the orginal concentration of each ingredient. You also don't know the synergistic reactions that might be occuring in the product between certain additives. Those are things that you can't just know from looking at the ingredients without having a very strong inorganic and organic chemistry background and more information from the company.

Other ingredients in a product can buffer the effects of something of intensify the effects. Also, some things don't need to used in a high concentration to affect the final product. It depends on their purpose and the other components that have a similar or complentary function. For example, when you bake a cake, you don't have to use 1/4 cup of baking soda,you usually only need a 1 teaspoon or so. Depending on the other ingredients in the cake, you might need more, you might need less but you still get the final result of a properly cooked cake.

Reading ingredients is more complicated than we think.

Great post, gymfreak! I learned something new today from it Thank you.

 

[ajoyfuljoy]

I love threads like this that make me think about the science of haircare.

And you know a hair science thread isn't complete until gymfreak chimes in

 

[Nice & Wavy]

I love threads like this that make me think about the science of haircare.

And you know a

hair science thread isn't complete until gymfreak chimes in [/

quote]

Girl, you can say that again.....Sho U right!!!

 

[gymfreak336]

I love threads like this that make me think about the science of haircare.

And you know a hair science thread isn't complete until gymfreak chimes in

I love threads like this that make me think about the science of haircare.

And you know aquote]

Girl, you can say that again.....Sho U right!!!

Thanks Ladies

 

[ShiShiPooPoo]

Okay, from a chemical standpoint......

Just because protein is in a product, doesn't make it a protein conditioner.

Hair needs protein to hold moisture. A protein molecule has a carboxyl end and an amine end. One end can be pronated with a water molecule. Hence the reason why a great moisture product has a protein in it. If the protein has a low molecular weight, that can help drive moisture deeper into the hair strand, especially given the porosity of that hair.

Also the OVERALL formula determines the end result. Yes concentration is listed in order but what you don't know is the orginal concentration of each ingredient. You also don't know the synergistic reactions that might be occuring in the product between certain additives. Those are things that you can't just know from looking at the ingredients without having a very strong inorganic and organic chemistry background and more information from the company.

Other ingredients in a product can buffer the effects of something of intensify the effects. Also, some things don't need to used in a high concentration to affect the final product. It depends on their purpose and the other components that have a similar or complentary function. For example, when you bake a cake, you don't have to use 1/4 cup of baking soda,you usually only need a 1 teaspoon or so. Depending on the other ingredients in the cake, you might need more, you might need less but you still get the final result of a properly cooked cake.

Reading ingredients is more complicated than we think.

Thank you. I was hoping you'd pop in.

I am getting better about reading ingredients and asking more scientific questions when it pertains to haircare. If it doesn't make sense to me I have to question until it does...just the type of person I am.

What I was doing was looking at keratin in ingredients and not paying much attention to the rest and how they may work TOGETHER.

Thanks again my smart sistahs...I appreciate all of you!

 

[gymfreak336]

Thank you. I was hoping you'd pop in.

I am getting better about reading ingredients and asking more scientific questions when it pertains to haircare. If it doesn't make sense to me I have to question until it does...just the type of person I am.

What I was doing was looking at keratin in ingredients and not paying much attention to the rest and how they may work TOGETHER.

Thanks again my smart sistahs...I appreciate all of you!

Asking questions is how we all learn. Many things that I know now were oly researched because of the questions asked here. I love threads like this. They lead to new discoveries

 

[msa]

Okay, from a chemical standpoint......

Just because protein is in a product, doesn't make it a protein conditioner.

Hair needs protein to hold moisture. A protein molecule has a carboxyl end and an amine end. One end can be pronated with a water molecule. Hence the reason why a great moisture product has a protein in it. If the protein has a low molecular weight, that can help drive moisture deeper into the hair strand, especially given the porosity of that hair.

Also the OVERALL formula determines the end result. Yes concentration is listed in order but what you don't know is the orginal concentration of each ingredient. You also don't know the synergistic reactions that might be occuring in the product between certain additives. Those are things that you can't just know from looking at the ingredients without having a very strong inorganic and organic chemistry background and more information from the company.

Other ingredients in a product can buffer the effects of something of intensify the effects. Also, some things don't need to used in a high concentration to affect the final product. It depends on their purpose and the other components that have a similar or complentary function. For example, when you bake a cake, you don't have to use 1/4 cup of baking soda,you usually only need a 1 teaspoon or so. Depending on the other ingredients in the cake, you might need more, you might need less but you still get the final result of a properly cooked cake.

Reading ingredients is more complicated than we think.

So I failed every science class I took in high school and college but I completely understood that explanation. You have a talent for breaking it down! Thanks.

 

[gymfreak336]

So I failed every science class I took in high school and college but I completely understood that explanation. You have a talent for breaking it down! Thanks.

Thanks! msa

 

[anon123]

Okay, from a chemical standpoint......

Just because protein is in a product, doesn't make it a protein conditioner.

Hair needs protein to hold moisture. A protein molecule has a carboxyl end and an amine end. One end can be pronated with a water molecule. Hence the reason why a great moisture product has a protein in it. If the protein has a low molecular weight, that can help drive moisture deeper into the hair strand, especially given the porosity of that hair.

Thank you for your helpful explanations. I have a question. So we need a little protein in order to hold moisture. Hair is naturally mostly protein all by itself, right? Does the necessary protein have to be in the product itself, or can the protein in healthy hair act as the protein needed to bind with the moisture molecules. Hair is a great part keratin already, right? I like products with some protein in them, but several other naturals on another board I chat on hate them and describe products that have no protein in them as more moisturizing for their hair, so I wonder how this is so. Thanks.

 

[Supergirl]

Like stated from posters above, keratin protein will help moisture adhere to the strands better. Its not necessarily adding moisture to your hair at that exact time (but its a very big helper for moisture to be retained within the strands correctly)

For instance..if u relax...never use protein...but u moisturize daily, but ur strands are still dry. Ur porosity is in check, as well as other things, but ur strands still feel as if its not drinking up the moisture/water content correctly.....then u may see a significant difference after u use a product with keratin b.c. the protein will help structure the hair SO THAT the moisture u give it in the future adheres. keratin is not just a strengthener/reconstructor, but it plays a big role in how moisture reacts to your hair.

 

[gymfreak336]

Thank you for your helpful explanations. I have a question. So we need a little protein in order to hold moisture. Hair is naturally mostly protein all by itself, right? Does the necessary protein have to be in the product itself, or can the protein in healthy hair act as the protein needed to bind with the moisture molecules. Hair is a great part keratin already, right? I like products with some protein in them, but several other naturals on another board I chat on hate them and describe products that have no protein in them as more moisturizing for their hair, so I wonder how this is so. Thanks.

I wanted to preface this with saying that I am not a cosmetic chemist and that what I say comes only from the things I have learned in school and the labs I have worked in.
This is the way I see it....

The protein in our hair will hold moisture in the same manner. The difference is that the protein in conditioners, the ones designed to help moisturize, help the hair hold onto and absorb more moisture. Our hair is protein as we all know and one of the amino acids that is found in our hair in large quanities is Cysteine. Cysteine is one of the only amino acids that can form covalent side chains with other molecules. You know how I said that a protein molecule has two ends. Well, one end bonds the opposite end of another protein molecule. This adds more protein, mainly in the already weak spots in our hair, thus adding more open hands to hold more moisture. Every strand of hair has weak points, part of that is just our strand biology in the way it coils out of the scalp. This goes into the whole protein tolerance thing and how some people are more protein sensitive which leads us into cuticle layers and your own personal "holding space" for protein and moisture but I am not going there today

My guess is that for the ladies that avoid protein like the plague.........well part of it is just picking the wrong product and using it incorrectly. The other part of it, at least to me, is that their hair has a lower affinity for protein. Another thing I want to point out is that alot of them probably use alot of oils that help preserve protein content and vegetable proteins, even if they don't know that it is protein.

 

[thegirltolove]

I wanted to preface this with saying that I am not a cosmetic chemist and that what I say comes only from the things I have learned in school and the labs I have worked in.
This is the way I see it....

The protein in our hair will hold moisture in the same manner. The difference is that the protein in conditioners, the ones designed to help moisturize, help the hair hold onto and absorb more moisture. Our hair is protein as we all know and one of the amino acids that is found in our hair in large quanities is Cysteine. Cysteine is one of the only amino acids that can form covalent side chains with other molecules. You know how I said that a protein molecule has two ends. Well, one end bonds the opposite end of another protein molecule. This adds more protein, mainly in the already weak spots in our hair, thus adding more open hands to hold more moisture. Every strand of hair has weak points, part of that is just our strand biology in the way it coils out of the scalp. This goes into the whole protein tolerance thing and how some people are more protein sensitive which leads us into cuticle layers and your own personal "holding space" for protein and moisture but I am not going there today

My guess is that for the ladies that avoid protein like the plague.........well part of it is just picking the wrong product and using it incorrectly. The other part of it, at least to me, is that their hair has a lower affinity for protein. Another thing I want to point out is that alot of them probably use alot of oils that help preserve protein content and vegetable proteins, even if they don't know that it is protein.

WOW.... I love learning new stuff like this. Very interesting. Keep it coming Gymfreak, keep it comin'!

 

[JustKiya]

*taking notes*

Ooh, such good information here!!

 

[africa]

I wanted to preface this with saying that I am not a cosmetic chemist and that what I say comes only from the things I have learned in school and the labs I have worked in.
This is the way I see it....

The protein in our hair will hold moisture in the same manner. The difference is that the protein in conditioners, the ones designed to help moisturize, help the hair hold onto and absorb more moisture. Our hair is protein as we all know and one of the amino acids that is found in our hair in large quanities is Cysteine. Cysteine is one of the only amino acids that can form covalent side chains with other molecules. You know how I said that a protein molecule has two ends. Well, one end bonds the opposite end of another protein molecule. This adds more protein, mainly in the already weak spots in our hair, thus adding more open hands to hold more moisture. Every strand of hair has weak points, part of that is just our strand biology in the way it coils out of the scalp. This goes into the whole protein tolerance thing and how some people are more protein sensitive which leads us into cuticle layers and your own personal "holding space" for protein and moisture but I am not going there today

My guess is that for the ladies that avoid protein like the plague.........well part of it is just picking the wrong product and using it incorrectly. The other part of it, at least to me, is that their hair has a lower affinity for protein. Another thing I want to point out is that alot of them probably use alot of oils that help preserve protein content and vegetable proteins, even if they don't know that it is protein.

I love your posts!! They are always so helpful and intelligent.

And, @bold, please do go there. I really need help understanding this protein sensitive hair thing. Can you give a really brief explanation of why some hair is protein sensitive and others is not?

I'm texlaxed and believe my hair is naturally medium/coarse and my hair is quick to get brittle if its' not moisturized with something (or if I use protein). At the same time, I know I need protein because I am relaxed. What's a girl to do? I'm thinking Joico's moisturizing conditioner might be a good thing that gives me that balance.

 

[Neroli]

I wanted to preface this with saying that I am not a cosmetic chemist and that what I say comes only from the things I have learned in school and the labs I have worked in.
This is the way I see it....

The protein in our hair will hold moisture in the same manner. The difference is that the protein in conditioners, the ones designed to help moisturize, help the hair hold onto and absorb more moisture. Our hair is protein as we all know and one of the amino acids that is found in our hair in large quanities is Cysteine. Cysteine is one of the only amino acids that can form covalent side chains with other molecules. You know how I said that a protein molecule has two ends. Well, one end bonds the opposite end of another protein molecule. This adds more protein, mainly in the already weak spots in our hair, thus adding more open hands to hold more moisture. Every strand of hair has weak points, part of that is just our strand biology in the way it coils out of the scalp. This goes into the whole protein tolerance thing and how some people are more protein sensitive which leads us into cuticle layers and your own personal "holding space" for protein and moisture but I am not going there today

My guess is that for the ladies that avoid protein like the plague.........well part of it is just picking the wrong product and using it incorrectly. The other part of it, at least to me, is that their hair has a lower affinity for protein. Another thing I want to point out is that alot of them probably use alot of oils that help preserve protein content and vegetable proteins, even if they don't know that it is protein.

Thanks for your usual coherent breakdown. You never disappoint and I was hoping you would jump in here and give us the "science" on this one . . .

 

[Neroli]

LHCF has taught me the beauty of differences.....

I haven't experienced any sufferings releasing chems from my life. I admit the hunt has been long and tedious to meet my hair's needs in a 'purest' fashion but I did it and I'm proud of it...

I have one last hurdle to jump and I'll be chem free...'xcept for the air I breathe, the foodstuffs on the market for me to eat and the water which pours from my faucet.... ... YAR....

Have a great day...

Yep, I feel ya, especially on the bolded part . . .

 

[gymfreak336]

I love your posts!! They are always so helpful and intelligent.

And, @bold, please do go there. I really need help understanding this protein sensitive hair thing. Can you give a really brief explanation of why some hair is protein sensitive and others is not?

I'm texlaxed and believe my hair is naturally medium/coarse and my hair is quick to get brittle if its' not moisturized with something (or if I use protein). At the same time, I know I need protein because I am relaxed. What's a girl to do? I'm thinking Joico's moisturizing conditioner might be a good thing that gives me that balance.

Thanks Africa!

Protein sensitivity........

Protein sensitivity comes from nature and from hair practice.

From nature...I mean the way your hair, in its baseline state is. Some hair just has a higher affinty for protein. Some women can use protein intensive products on a regular basis without a problem, like Mane and Tail. That is a protein intensive line but some women can use it on a regular basis as thier staple shampoo and conditioner and some, like myself, use it as a mild protein. Your hair is composed of protein like we all know but hair is different in the chemical breakdown of that protein. Like the % cysteine is different throughout the hair types. This goes into the amount of disulfide bonds for example. These are the bonds that are broken and realigned in the relaxing process. This goes into the relaxer strength since more the disulfide bonds you have, *in general* the straighter your hair type. This is why many of the super relaxers are marketed towards women with a more wavy straightish hair types because they have more disulfide bonds to break (some women really need super). Which lead into the next point........In general (again there are always exceptions) the women with this hair type have more cuticle layers. I have used this as an example before and I am going to use it again because its the best way to "see" it yourself. Imagine an empty movie theater....Now the row of empty seats are the cuticle layers. Now imagine people waiting to sit down. These are the conditioning agents waiting to take a spot..all your fatty acids, proteins, ceramides (glycolipids) etc..... Now if you have 50 "people" waiting to sit down but only 3 rows avaible then you are going to run out of space. This is also why product buildup tolerance is different in everyone.

In practice......

Some people have protein sensitivity because of their regime. The products and the way one uses those products can cause the hair to be protein sensitive. Many people that are protein sensitive use alot of oils and have sources of protein and fortification, even if they don't think so. Just because an ingredient doesn't have protein in it name doesn't mean it doesn't not contain protein. For example, aloe vera is a vegetable protein. Sistaslick had talked about that before. Oils can help preserve protein content in the hair which could lead to the need of less protein. Also, the molecules of some oils can mimic the glue affects of proteins temporarily. Now oils are not a protein substitue and eventually all hair will need it. All hair needs protein but the frequency and intensity is different. It is also important to note that all protein is alike only in the fact that it is made of amino acids but protein is the most diverse of all biological molecules on this planet They don't behave the same way. Silk protein and wheat protein do not behave the same way. Each type of protein used in cosmetic application has different attributes. Wheat protein helps the hair stay pliable and moisturized which is why it is a major ingredient in Kenra MC. Silk proteins are known for their protective and gentle effects, especially in heat and chemical repair. Silk protein as a low molecular weight so it is really great for hair that is easily weighted down and for moisture in thicker hair types that need something with a low mol. weight to help transport moisture into the thicker, tighter hair strands. Every protein has its advantages.

When trying to understand your own protein tolerance, you have to think about your hair's nature, what you put it through, and the type of product you use. Don't tell me your hair is protein sensitive and the only protein product you have ever used it Aphogee Alot of the diagnoses of protein sensitivty comes from improper selection and use of protein products as well. I would actually say 50% of the problem is product selection an use.

 

[gymfreak336]

Thanks for your usual coherent breakdown. You never disappoint and I was hoping you would jump in here and give us the "science" on this one . . .

Thanks Neroli!

 

[Nice & Wavy]

You know your stuff....go girl

Thanks Africa!

Protein sensitivity........

Protein sensitivity comes from nature and from hair practice.

From nature...I mean the way your hair, in its baseline state is. Some hair just has a higher affinty for protein. Some women can use protein intensive products on a regular basis without a problem, like Mane and Tail. That is a protein intensive line but some women can use it on a regular basis as thier staple shampoo and conditioner and some, like myself, use it as a mild protein. Your hair is composed of protein like we all know but hair is different in the chemical breakdown of that protein. Like the % cysteine is different throughout the hair types. This goes into the amount of disulfide bonds for example. These are the bonds that are broken and realigned in the relaxing process. This goes into the relaxer strength since more the disulfide bonds you have, *in general* the straighter your hair type. This is why many of the super relaxers are marketed towards women with a more wavy straightish hair types because they have more disulfide bonds to break (some women really need super). Which lead into the next point........In general (again there are always exceptions) the women with this hair type have more cuticle layers. I have used this as an example before and I am going to use it again because its the best way to "see" it yourself. Imagine an empty movie theater....Now the row of empty seats are the cuticle layers. Now imagine people waiting to sit down. These are the conditioning agents waiting to take a spot..all your fatty acids, proteins, ceramides (glycolipids) etc..... Now if you have 50 "people" waiting to sit down but only 3 rows avaible then you are going to run out of space. This is also why product buildup tolerance is different in everyone.

In practice......

Some people have protein sensitivity because of their regime. The products and the way one uses those products can cause the hair to be protein sensitive. Many people that are protein sensitive use alot of oils and have sources of protein and fortification, even if they don't think so. Just because an ingredient doesn't have protein in it name doesn't mean it doesn't not contain protein. For example, aloe vera is a vegetable protein. Sistaslick had talked about that before. Oils can help preserve protein content in the hair which could lead to the need of less protein. Also, the molecules of some oils can mimic the glue affects of proteins temporarily. Now oils are not a protein substitue and eventually all hair will need it. All hair needs protein but the frequency and intensity is different. It is also important to note that all protein is alike only in the fact that it is made of amino acids but protein is the most diverse of all biological molecules on this planet They don't behave the same way. Silk protein and wheat protein do not behave the same way. Each type of protein used in cosmetic application has different attributes. Wheat protein helps the hair stay pliable and moisturized which is why it is a major ingredient in Kenra MC. Silk proteins are known for their protective and gentle effects, especially in heat and chemical repair. Silk protein as a low molecular weight so it is really great for hair that is easily weighted down and for moisture in thicker hair types that need something with a low mol. weight to help transport moisture into the thicker, tighter hair strands. Every protein has its advantages.

When trying to understand your own protein tolerance, you have to think about your hair's nature, what you put it through, and the type of product you use. Don't tell me your hair is protein sensitive and the only protein product you have ever used it Aphogee Alot of the diagnoses of protein sensitivty comes from improper selection and use of protein products as well. I would actually say 50% of the problem is product selection an use.

 

[gymfreak336]

You know your stuff....go girl

Thanks Nice & Wavy

 

[PinkPebbles]

I learn something new from all of your posts / threads! You are a gem! Yesterday, I learned from Tracyee' s blog too that some oils like avocado and coconut are protein agents. Knowledge is indeed powerful!

Thanks Africa!

Protein sensitivity........

Protein sensitivity comes from nature and from hair practice.

From nature...I mean the way your hair, in its baseline state is. Some hair just has a higher affinty for protein. Some women can use protein intensive products on a regular basis without a problem, like Mane and Tail. That is a protein intensive line but some women can use it on a regular basis as thier staple shampoo and conditioner and some, like myself, use it as a mild protein. Your hair is composed of protein like we all know but hair is different in the chemical breakdown of that protein. Like the % cysteine is different throughout the hair types. This goes into the amount of disulfide bonds for example. These are the bonds that are broken and realigned in the relaxing process. This goes into the relaxer strength since more the disulfide bonds you have, *in general* the straighter your hair type. This is why many of the super relaxers are marketed towards women with a more wavy straightish hair types because they have more disulfide bonds to break (some women really need super). Which lead into the next point........In general (again there are always exceptions) the women with this hair type have more cuticle layers. I have used this as an example before and I am going to use it again because its the best way to "see" it yourself. Imagine an empty movie theater....Now the row of empty seats are the cuticle layers. Now imagine people waiting to sit down. These are the conditioning agents waiting to take a spot..all your fatty acids, proteins, ceramides (glycolipids) etc..... Now if you have 50 "people" waiting to sit down but only 3 rows avaible then you are going to run out of space. This is also why product buildup tolerance is different in everyone.

In practice......

Some people have protein sensitivity because of their regime. The products and the way one uses those products can cause the hair to be protein sensitive. Many people that are protein sensitive use alot of oils and have sources of protein and fortification, even if they don't think so. Just because an ingredient doesn't have protein in it name doesn't mean it doesn't not contain protein. For example, aloe vera is a vegetable protein. Sistaslick had talked about that before. Oils can help preserve protein content in the hair which could lead to the need of less protein. Also, the molecules of some oils can mimic the glue affects of proteins temporarily. Now oils are not a protein substitue and eventually all hair will need it. All hair needs protein but the frequency and intensity is different. It is also important to note that all protein is alike only in the fact that it is made of amino acids but protein is the most diverse of all biological molecules on this planet They don't behave the same way. Silk protein and wheat protein do not behave the same way. Each type of protein used in cosmetic application has different attributes. Wheat protein helps the hair stay pliable and moisturized which is why it is a major ingredient in Kenra MC. Silk proteins are known for their protective and gentle effects, especially in heat and chemical repair. Silk protein as a low molecular weight so it is really great for hair that is easily weighted down and for moisture in thicker hair types that need something with a low mol. weight to help transport moisture into the thicker, tighter hair strands. Every protein has its advantages.

When trying to understand your own protein tolerance, you have to think about your hair's nature, what you put it through, and the type of product you use. Don't tell me your hair is protein sensitive and the only protein product you have ever used it Aphogee Alot of the diagnoses of protein sensitivty comes from improper selection and use of protein products as well. I would actually say 50% of the problem is product selection an use.

 

[PinkPebbles]

Double Post......

Thanks Africa!

Protein sensitivity........

Protein sensitivity comes from nature and from hair practice.

From nature...I mean the way your hair, in its baseline state is. Some hair just has a higher affinty for protein. Some women can use protein intensive products on a regular basis without a problem, like Mane and Tail. That is a protein intensive line but some women can use it on a regular basis as thier staple shampoo and conditioner and some, like myself, use it as a mild protein. Your hair is composed of protein like we all know but hair is different in the chemical breakdown of that protein. Like the % cysteine is different throughout the hair types. This goes into the amount of disulfide bonds for example. These are the bonds that are broken and realigned in the relaxing process. This goes into the relaxer strength since more the disulfide bonds you have, *in general* the straighter your hair type. This is why many of the super relaxers are marketed towards women with a more wavy straightish hair types because they have more disulfide bonds to break (some women really need super). Which lead into the next point........In general (again there are always exceptions) the women with this hair type have more cuticle layers. I have used this as an example before and I am going to use it again because its the best way to "see" it yourself. Imagine an empty movie theater....Now the row of empty seats are the cuticle layers. Now imagine people waiting to sit down. These are the conditioning agents waiting to take a spot..all your fatty acids, proteins, ceramides (glycolipids) etc..... Now if you have 50 "people" waiting to sit down but only 3 rows avaible then you are going to run out of space. This is also why product buildup tolerance is different in everyone.

In practice......

Some people have protein sensitivity because of their regime. The products and the way one uses those products can cause the hair to be protein sensitive. Many people that are protein sensitive use alot of oils and have sources of protein and fortification, even if they don't think so. Just because an ingredient doesn't have protein in it name doesn't mean it doesn't not contain protein. For example, aloe vera is a vegetable protein. Sistaslick had talked about that before. Oils can help preserve protein content in the hair which could lead to the need of less protein. Also, the molecules of some oils can mimic the glue affects of proteins temporarily. Now oils are not a protein substitue and eventually all hair will need it. All hair needs protein but the frequency and intensity is different. It is also important to note that all protein is alike only in the fact that it is made of amino acids but protein is the most diverse of all biological molecules on this planet They don't behave the same way. Silk protein and wheat protein do not behave the same way. Each type of protein used in cosmetic application has different attributes. Wheat protein helps the hair stay pliable and moisturized which is why it is a major ingredient in Kenra MC. Silk proteins are known for their protective and gentle effects, especially in heat and chemical repair. Silk protein as a low molecular weight so it is really great for hair that is easily weighted down and for moisture in thicker hair types that need something with a low mol. weight to help transport moisture into the thicker, tighter hair strands. Every protein has its advantages.

When trying to understand your own protein tolerance, you have to think about your hair's nature, what you put it through, and the type of product you use. Don't tell me your hair is protein sensitive and the only protein product you have ever used it Aphogee Alot of the diagnoses of protein sensitivty comes from improper selection and use of protein products as well. I would actually say 50% of the problem is product selection an use.

 

[gymfreak336]

I learn something new from all of your posts / threads! You are a gem! Yesterday, I learned from Tracyee' s blog too that some oils like avocado and coconut are protein agents. Knowledge is indeed powerful!

Thans PinkPebbles. This stuff can get interesting

 

[anon123]

The protein in our hair will hold moisture in the same manner. The difference is that the protein in conditioners, the ones designed to help moisturize, help the hair hold onto and absorb more moisture. Our hair is protein as we all know and one of the amino acids that is found in our hair in large quanities is Cysteine . . .

Thank you for the response!

Thanks Africa!

Protein sensitivity........

Protein sensitivity comes from nature and from hair practice.

From nature...I mean the way your hair, in its baseline state is. Some hair just has a higher affinty for protein. Some women can use protein intensive products on a regular basis without a problem, like Mane and Tail. That is a protein intensive line but some women can use it on a regular basis as thier staple shampoo and conditioner and some, like myself, use it as a mild protein. Your hair is composed of protein like we all know but hair is different in the chemical breakdown of that protein. Like the % cysteine is different throughout the hair types. This goes into the amount of disulfide bonds for example. These are the bonds that are broken and realigned in the relaxing process. This goes into the relaxer strength since more the disulfide bonds you have, *in general* the straighter your hair type. This is why many of the super relaxers are marketed towards women with a more wavy straightish hair types because they have more disulfide bonds to break (some women really need super). Which lead into the next point........In general (again there are always exceptions) the women with this hair type have more cuticle layers. I have used this as an example before and I am going to use it again because its the best way to "see" it yourself. Imagine an empty movie theater....Now the row of empty seats are the cuticle layers. Now imagine people waiting to sit down. These are the conditioning agents waiting to take a spot..all your fatty acids, proteins, ceramides (glycolipids) etc..... Now if you have 50 "people" waiting to sit down but only 3 rows avaible then you are going to run out of space. This is also why product buildup tolerance is different in everyone.

See, this is really interesting. In fact, I had been noticing that many women with hair that is not classically called the "nappiest" often have a problem with relaxers "taking" fully. Sometimes I saw the relaxer not taking being given as evidence that their hair was somehow "extra nappy", but this didn't make sense given what I was seeing. What you say here helps it to make sense.

This diverges a little, but I had been wondering about white and asian people when they get curly perms. I read at the Univ. of Wiki that the same chemicals, like ammonium thioglycolate, can be used for curly perms or straight perms a.k.a. relaxers and that for the straight kind the hair simply was not rolled around the rods. I guess the rods/rollers are what reforms the bonds in a certain way. Anyway, I know that whites and asians, though their hair may continue to be damaged by having received the chemicals, don't really have to transition out of a curly perm. After time and a lot of washing, the curl is lost. So now that you say the above what I was wondering was if them losing the curls was a result of the fact that their hair is straighter and has more bonds to break so essentially it never takes as well as AA would to these chemicals, or if it's because the process of setting the hair on rollers to reform the bonds is not one that can give a permanent result? What do you think?

 

[gymfreak336]

Thank you for the response!



See, this is really interesting. In fact, I had been noticing that many women with hair that is not classically called the "nappiest" often have a problem with relaxers "taking" fully. Sometimes I saw the relaxer not taking being given as evidence that their hair was somehow "extra nappy", but this didn't make sense given what I was seeing. What you say here helps it to make sense.

This diverges a little, but I had been wondering about white and asian people when they get curly perms. I read at the Univ. of Wiki that the same chemicals, like ammonium thioglycolate, can be used for curly perms or straight perms a.k.a. relaxers and that for the straight kind the hair simply was not rolled around the rods. I guess the rods/rollers are what reforms the bonds in a certain way. Anyway, I know that whites and asians, though their hair may continue to be damaged by having received the chemicals, don't really have to transition out of a curly perm. After time and a lot of washing, the curl is lost. So now that you say the above what I was wondering was if them losing the curls was a result of the fact that their hair is straighter and has more bonds to break so essentially it never takes as well as AA would to these chemicals, or if it's because the process of setting the hair on rollers to reform the bonds is not one that can give a permanent result? What do you think?

I think the amount of bonds they have to break have a lot to do with it. I also notice with them that the line of demarcation isn't that pronouced either. Those chemicals *I believe* are also not at "strong". I'll have to check on that though. I really don't remember. One way you know Asians have very strong (in terms of protein bonds) hair is how they color. It usually takes alot more elbow grease to get them lighter. I think that is because the melatin that gives our hair color is all intertwinned with our protein bonds. Because they have so many strong ones, it takes longer to get the pigment to lift.

 

[africa]

Thanks Africa!

Protein sensitivity........

Protein sensitivity comes from nature and from hair practice.

From nature...I mean the way your hair, in its baseline state is. Some hair just has a higher affinty for protein. Some women can use protein intensive products on a regular basis without a problem, like Mane and Tail. That is a protein intensive line but some women can use it on a regular basis as thier staple shampoo and conditioner and some, like myself, use it as a mild protein. Your hair is composed of protein like we all know but hair is different in the chemical breakdown of that protein. Like the % cysteine is different throughout the hair types. This goes into the amount of disulfide bonds for example. These are the bonds that are broken and realigned in the relaxing process. This goes into the relaxer strength since more the disulfide bonds you have, *in general* the straighter your hair type. This is why many of the super relaxers are marketed towards women with a more wavy straightish hair types because they have more disulfide bonds to break (some women really need super). Which lead into the next point........In general (again there are always exceptions) the women with this hair type have more cuticle layers. I have used this as an example before and I am going to use it again because its the best way to "see" it yourself. Imagine an empty movie theater....Now the row of empty seats are the cuticle layers. Now imagine people waiting to sit down. These are the conditioning agents waiting to take a spot..all your fatty acids, proteins, ceramides (glycolipids) etc..... Now if you have 50 "people" waiting to sit down but only 3 rows avaible then you are going to run out of space. This is also why product buildup tolerance is different in everyone.

In practice......

Some people have protein sensitivity because of their regime. The products and the way one uses those products can cause the hair to be protein sensitive. Many people that are protein sensitive use alot of oils and have sources of protein and fortification, even if they don't think so. Just because an ingredient doesn't have protein in it name doesn't mean it doesn't not contain protein. For example, aloe vera is a vegetable protein. Sistaslick had talked about that before. Oils can help preserve protein content in the hair which could lead to the need of less protein. Also, the molecules of some oils can mimic the glue affects of proteins temporarily. Now oils are not a protein substitue and eventually all hair will need it. All hair needs protein but the frequency and intensity is different. It is also important to note that all protein is alike only in the fact that it is made of amino acids but protein is the most diverse of all biological molecules on this planet They don't behave the same way. Silk protein and wheat protein do not behave the same way. Each type of protein used in cosmetic application has different attributes. Wheat protein helps the hair stay pliable and moisturized which is why it is a major ingredient in Kenra MC. Silk proteins are known for their protective and gentle effects, especially in heat and chemical repair. Silk protein as a low molecular weight so it is really great for hair that is easily weighted down and for moisture in thicker hair types that need something with a low mol. weight to help transport moisture into the thicker, tighter hair strands. Every protein has its advantages.

When trying to understand your own protein tolerance, you have to think about your hair's nature, what you put it through, and the type of product you use. Don't tell me your hair is protein sensitive and the only protein product you have ever used it Aphogee Alot of the diagnoses of protein sensitivty comes from improper selection and use of protein products as well. I would actually say 50% of the problem is product selection an use.

This description is awesome!!! Thanks so much . There is a lot to process here. I need start thinking more about whether this seeming protein sensitivity is more nature or nurture. I am very hesitant to use oils--especially directly on my hair because again, it ==hardness. So for me, its not from getting a lot of protein rich oils in my regimine. I generally try to avoid them in my leave-ins and stuff here, but I'm really going to consider the possibility that it is products and not nature. I did try the Joico Moisture balm,and my hair did well with it...no hardness (and it has keratin). My hair seems to get along reaaaal well with Aveda Damage Remedy too.

This post reminded me about my biology teacher hammering home the diversity of proteins...for some reason, it is only now clicking in relaiton to protein for hair. I now finally connect that TYPE of protein is HUGE!

I'm trying to think more about how protein sensitivity can relate to people with naturally kinky 4a/4b hair in relation to what you wrote above. So people with wavy/straight hair have more cysteine & disulfide bonds. If a person with kinky 4a/4b hair has a very thick hair strand (coarse), it seems like it would be possible that their hair could be more protein sensitive because there is more protein (cysteine or disulfide bonds) there in the cortex to begin with. So if a relaxer does not or cannot break down the protein and bonds in their hair compleltely, they may be more sensitive to protein than the next person...

But then again, I've heard people with fine hair say they are protein sensitive too so who knows!!!

Don't feel compelled to answer gymfreak, I'm just thinking aloud here. Your description above is a godsend that is about to get printed out in a minute !

 

[ladylibra_30]

wow, this thread is a treasure of info! although i got some clarification i feel a little overwhelmed too. purchasing products for hair care is really a serious task.

 

[ShiShiPooPoo]

wow, this thread is a treasure of info! although i got some clarification i feel a little overwhelmed too. purchasing products for hair care is really a serious task.

I feel overwhelmed too...but in a good way...like I have learned something new that will forever change the way I shop for haircare!


I LOVE IT!

 

[gymfreak336]

This description is awesome!!! Thanks so much . There is a lot to process here. I need start thinking more about whether this seeming protein sensitivity is more nature or nurture. I am very hesitant to use oils--especially directly on my hair because again, it ==hardness. So for me, its not from getting a lot of protein rich oils in my regimine. I generally try to avoid them in my leave-ins and stuff here, but I'm really going to consider the possibility that it is products and not nature. I did try the Joico Moisture balm,and my hair did well with it...no hardness (and it has keratin). My hair seems to get along reaaaal well with Aveda Damage Remedy too.

This post reminded me about my biology teacher hammering home the diversity of proteins...for some reason, it is only now clicking in relaiton to protein for hair. I now finally connect that TYPE of protein is HUGE!

I'm trying to think more about how protein sensitivity can relate to people with naturally kinky 4a/4b hair in relation to what you wrote above. So people with wavy/straight hair have more cysteine & disulfide bonds. If a person with kinky 4a/4b hair has a very thick hair strand (coarse), it seems like it would be possible that their hair could be more protein sensitive because there is more protein (cysteine or disulfide bonds) there in the cortex to begin with. So if a relaxer does not or cannot break down the protein and bonds in their hair compleltely, they may be more sensitive to protein than the next person...
But then again, I've heard people with fine hair say they are protein sensitive too so who knows!!!

Don't feel compelled to answer gymfreak, I'm just thinking aloud here. Your description above is a godsend that is about to get printed out in a minute !

Whats up girl!

With the protein sensitivity thing, I really am going to have to do more research to dig deeper into my theory behind some of it. I think the critical thing we have to remember is that all protein is not the same. My theory behind the bolded is that is has more to do with the cuticle and how it is constructed which is why even when you look at a group of typical 4b heads, protein sensitivty varies so much.

One thing I want to clarify is that you have lots of cuticle layers and still have high porosity just as you can have less cuticle layers that are super tight causing you to have low porosity. This is why some women still have resistant hair, even if their hair isn't the typical resistant "coarse, wirey and thick". If you have low porosity, your dryness usually comes from the fact that you have a hard time getting moisture into the hair strand and if you have high porosity (raises hand) then your hair has a hard time holding on to it............................Adequate protein can help fix both problems and here is how. ...............As the thread already stated by many many posters in this thread, hair needs protein to hold onto moisture. Those with high porosity benefit from protein on a steady basis to help keep our cuticle smooth and to keep moisture in our hair. One reason many fine hair product lines are basically mild protein lines is for this reason. Protein with its moisture carrying properties, can be a relativly weightless moisturizer especially when combined with gentle moisturizing agents that are light on the hair strand. That way the hair can be moisturized without weighing it down. Now for the converse....using proteins that have a small molecular weight like silk can help penetrate the hair strand. These proteins carry a little moisture with them too thus helping the low porosity hair stay conditioned. Combined with more bulky emollients like certain non volitale silicones, butters (shea, mango etc..), oils and the typical emollients and humectants like all of the fatty alcohols, you have a conditioner that can help moisturize lower porosity hair. This is one reason why one product can be used by either type but for different reasons. For example, Motions Moisture Plus does nothing for me. The only thing it is good for a quick rinse and even then I can only use a little of it and only for trying to get some slip. Now other ladies swear by it for keeping their hair moisturized. They tend to have thicker more resistant hair than I do. Same with ORS replenishing. We all know its a moisturizing mild protein but some people use it here as a moisturizing conditioner after heavy protein like aphogee without any problem, other can only use it as a mild protein treatment.