The Official Catholic Thread

[auparavant]

I think the verses are helpful--the passage about the bronze serpent is particularly thought-provoking. It's one of those really interesting happenings in the OT, kind of like the story of the man who fell on Elijah's bones and was immediately healed (relics).

It does seem to me, though, that the question about whether the use of statues is idolatry is ultimately a question about whether the veneration of saints is idolatry. In answering that question, often the distinction between "latria" and "dulia" is made, with latria being only given to God. The apologetical arguments that I've read on that point haven't always been convincing, as saints are often honored in a manner that we would not honor a living person (at least not in the West--some of this is cultural, imo).

To take a non-Catholic example, I had the pleasure of spending a few months as a visitor in an Orthodox parish. At one point, a "wonder working icon" of Our Lady of Sitka (Alaska) was brought to the church. There was a service dedicated to the Theotokos (Mary) in which the icon was displayed at the front of the church and a liturgy of prayers was sung to the Theotokos with much kneeling and bowing before the icon. I was honestly rather mortified, as for me, such acts fall squarely into the "God" category and again, for me, are reserved as an expression of worship toward God. (the point about Japanese culture is duly noted, which is why I do think that sensibilities about such things differ across cultures and amongst individuals).

On my part, it is easier for me to say that insofar as I could discern from our fellowship and discussions together, that the individuals of that church did not have idolatrous hearts than it is for me to say that such a service was not idolatrous. Do they submit themselves or their hearts to the icon, or the Theotokos, rather than to God? No, not in any way that I could tell. And yet I would not participate in such a service in the future.

Veneration is not a black or white thing, I think. It remains a matter of the heart. I've seen some rely on book definitions of idolatry and philosophical distinctions on the nature of worship, and while such distinctions are real, they can't in themselves answer the question of whether an individual, at heart, is offering to a creature what should only be offered to the Creator. People still have to continually sift their own hearts to know whether they are truly submitting to Him or to something man-made.

Or submit to the teaching authority in which such has already been determined with boundaries set forth. This is how we know we are right, when we mirror what has been passed down. We need not go it alone ever again.

 

[Shimmie]

This is where I am.

I have become more aware of the love that flows from the hearts of those who are Catholic, SDA, and other Christian faiths here.

I don't want to care about how a person's denomination differs from how I worship God. I don't see anyone here worshipping nor exhalting satan.

Here are the basics:

We all love God
We all acknowledge Jesus as our Lord and Saviour
We all acknowledge the fullness of the Holy Spirit
We each denounce satan and all of his wickedness
We each honour the true meaning of Marriage which is between One Man and One Woman... no in between. No alterations; no variations, no counterfeits.
We each respect life; renounce abortion

We just need to come together as one. Jesus said "Unto we all come together in the knowledge of the Truth"... The Truth is Jesus.

satan doesn't want us to become one. Who cares about what he wants or doesn't want?

There isn't a perfect religion among us. Not one. Yet there is perfect love and that's all I'm changing my heart to see.

I may not worhip the same as Catholics, however, Catholics are not evil nor are they serving the devil. They have something greater to share among us; their loving hearts.

 

[auparavant]

I hope this thread is taken well. I think we have more similarities and certainly all derive from the first universal faith and therefore, have more in common than we realize. I posted this to just put people at ease with the differences and to know that all people need prayer, not just catholics What is also very important is that we ask questions and continue to do so all of our lives. That's how we learn. And in that learning, we begin to see just how the people of G-d are definitely thrown often to the lions. We all need to know our roots and comprehend why we do what we do...all of us.

Thanks @Shimmie but I have to even say about "loving hearts," that it's not even the focus. We are all imperfect. If there's anything I wish for others to know about catholicism and Judaism, it's best described in these pics. That is the whole focus.

Demonstrating the Father's love is definitely important...but before even that is G-d's word. May He increase and I decrease.

 

[aribell]

Or submit to the teaching authority in which such has already been determined with boundaries set forth. This is how we know we are right, when we mirror what has been passed down. We need not go it alone ever again.

Well, the point that I'm making is that even if an act is not sinful in and of itself, that fact alone cannot tell someone whether or not they are an idolater, as idolatry is not simply about outward movements and postures, but is very much about the place God has within one's heart, and the place that created things have within one's heart. One might have official sanction to do certain acts, but nevertheless need a heart check. Jesus harped on the scribes and Pharisees about this all the time. "Well did Isaiah prophesy of you when he said, "This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me." (Matt. 15:8)

 

[auparavant]

When we affirm the Nicene Creed, we affirm belief in Him. When we baptize a child, we affirm our belief in Him. 1st Communion, Confirmation, 1st Reconciliation...and all sacraments...we affirm individual and communal belief in Him. Yes, one can honor G-d with the lips...but HE is basically the only one who knows whether it is true or not and reveals it to the individual for whom it might be true. That is not for others to determine, actually. And yet, we are to admonish one another. We are in this walk as a community of faith together. That is rather akin to saying to someone that they shouldn't really wear a cross as a symbol and just to keep it all inside. Well, I think the article explained religious ritual quite well. It might be a matter of confusion for some but for those who know what they do and what they do not do, there's no misunderstanding at all.

 

[Belle Du Jour]

When we affirm the Nicene Creed, we affirm belief in Him. When we baptize a child, we affirm our belief in Him. 1st Communion, Confirmation, 1st Reconciliation...and all sacraments...we affirm individual and communal belief in Him. Yes, one can honor G-d with the lips...but HE is basically the only one who knows whether it is true or not and reveals it to the individual for whom it might be true. That is not for others to determine, actually. And yet, we are to admonish one another. We are in this walk as a community of faith together. That is rather akin to saying to someone that they shouldn't really wear a cross as a symbol and just to keep it all inside. Well, I think the article explained religious ritual quite well. It might be a matter of confusion for some but for those who know what they do and what they do not do, there's no misunderstanding at all.

For emphasis

 

[Belle Du Jour]

Awesome photos!!! Evidence of the "faith of our fathers" (which is actually a Catholic hymn ) in action. Priests and deacons also wear a similar stole and bishops wear that "beanie." Pagan roots my foot.

 

[auparavant]

Hahaha...'beanie' Kippa or yarmulke and for our cardinals...zucchetto (had to look that one up cuz I forgot).

But all in all, we are from one initially. People of the book...that's christians and Jews...and they have the same origin religiously, sometimes genetically.

 

[auparavant]

Speaking of knowing all the religious articles....I can remember in undergrad when I was taking one of my French courses in culture and our prof. (Parisian) wondered why some of us didn't comprehend automatically what the use of the items were. Duh, he was used to everybody being catholic. I wasn't a catholic then. Then I made the mistake a few years ago to send in a Montreal joke on new immigrants to Canada and the snow and cold. With each passing year, they got more Montrealer ...meaning, they began to curse. H-ly Moses...I had to retract that...cuz they use the terms of the ritual vessels and instruments of the mass. If I ever finish paying for that on earth....haha.

 

[Galadriel]

How timely is this? I've just had a discussion with my brother (non-Catholic) about this the other day.

No, this is not a proselytization attempt. It is explaining the seemingly inexplicable. It is an attempt to set the record straight based upon our adherence to the scriptures and holy and sacred tradition handed down through the apostles, guided by the H-ly Spirit so that heretical charges can be put to rest. You will probably disagree anyway, but the reasons are there in easy to read format. It's like call an apple purple when it's red. Someone may want to see it as purple, but if it's red, then it's red.

 

[Galadriel]

Very interesting. I had some of the same questions myself (when I was not a Catholic) and asked my Catholic friends why they did what they did. I agree we cannot see what's in each individual's heart of hearts, but I also realize that we sometimes judge things through our cultural lens.

In our particular culture (American), there's really no place for bowing. For anything. Maybe in a movie before a king or queen . To bow before anyone would seem awkward at best, humiliating at worst. We're a culture and country founded upon anti-monarchist ideals, and much of the actions (bowing, etc.) in Catholicism carry with it echoes from cultures and times in history where the monarchy, the King and Queen were ingrained in culture. Thus, you'll notice a lot of the Medieval religious books use flowery language because this is how you would address the royalty of the court--and the royalty of the Court of Heaven are the King Jesus and the Queen Mother (Mary).

I once had someone accuse Catholics of idolatry because he once saw a Catholic enter a Catholic church and approach the sanctuary/altar on his knees. If the person understood Catholicism, he would've known that near the altar would be Jesus Christ Himself present in the Eucharist inside the tabernacle.

I have also had some people mention that the mere presence of statues = idolatry.

nicola.kirwan, I think with proper religious education and formation, people can have a good/better grasp of latria and dulia, and their proper places

I think the verses are helpful--the passage about the bronze serpent is particularly thought-provoking. It's one of those really interesting happenings in the OT, kind of like the story of the man who fell on Elijah's bones and was immediately healed (relics).

It does seem to me, though, that the question about whether the use of statues is idolatry is ultimately a question about whether the veneration of saints is idolatry. In answering that question, often the distinction between "latria" and "dulia" is made, with latria being only given to God. The apologetical arguments that I've read on that point haven't always been convincing, as saints are often honored in a manner that we would not honor a living person (at least not in the West--some of this is cultural, imo).

To take a non-Catholic example, I had the pleasure of spending a few months as a visitor in an Orthodox parish. At one point, a "wonder working icon" of Our Lady of Sitka (Alaska) was brought to the church. There was a service dedicated to the Theotokos (Mary) in which the icon was displayed at the front of the church and a liturgy of prayers was sung to the Theotokos with much kneeling and bowing before the icon. I was honestly rather mortified, as for me, such acts fall squarely into the "God" category and again, for me, are reserved as an expression of worship toward God. (the point about Japanese culture is duly noted, which is why I do think that sensibilities about such things differ across cultures and amongst individuals).

On my part, it is easier for me to say that insofar as I could discern from our fellowship and discussions together, that the individuals of that church did not have idolatrous hearts than it is for me to say that such a service was not idolatrous. Do they submit themselves or their hearts to the icon, or the Theotokos, rather than to God? No, not in any way that I could tell. And yet I would not participate in such a service in the future.

Veneration is not a black or white thing, I think. It remains a matter of the heart. I've seen some rely on book definitions of idolatry and philosophical distinctions on the nature of worship, and while such distinctions are real, they can't in themselves answer the question of whether an individual, at heart, is offering to a creature what should only be offered to the Creator. People still have to continually sift their own hearts to know whether they are truly submitting to Him or to something man-made.

 

[auparavant]

http://www.aish.com/jw/s/Farewell-to-Pope-Benedict.html

Farewell to Pope Benedict
Despite some disappointments, he moved the strained Christian-Jewish relations one step closer.
by Rabbi Benjamin Blech

I met Pope Benedict at the infamous death camp of Auschwitz-Birkenau.

It was right after he had assumed his position as head of the Catholic Church and his very first trip as Pope was to Poland. After stopping in Wadowice, birthplace of his predecessor, Pope John Paul II, Pope Benedict went on to the concentration camp complex 37 miles west of Cracow that epitomized the very worst of Nazi Germany’s genocidal plans for the Jewish people.

It was an historic moment. The newly installed Pope, after all, was a German who at the age of 14 joined the Hitler Youth, as was required of young Germans of the time. What were we to make of his past affiliation? It was a troubling thought that preoccupied Jews throughout the world. Having serendipitously become involved with Pope John Paul II a short while before in an effort to secure the return of precious Jewish items from the Vatican, I was filled with trepidation.

The previous Pope had proved to be more of a friend than we could have possibly imagined. When he made his famous pilgrimage to Jerusalem in March 2000, he wrote a very special note which he inserted into the Western Wall. He acknowledged the special role of Jews as God’s messengers and apologized for generations of bigotry and appalling behavior:

We are deeply saddened by the behavior of those who in the course of history have caused these children of yours to suffer, and, asking your forgiveness, we wish to commit ourselves to genuine brotherhood with the people of the Covenant.

Pope John Paul II had been, as the expression goes, “good for the Jews.” What could we expect from Joseph Aloisius Ratzinger, the ninth German Pope in history?

The decision to stage the first major event of his papacy at the site of history’s most horrific example of anti-Semitism was unmistakably important, and I was lucky enough to have been present for the occasion.

A solemn Pope Benedict, his hands clasped in prayer, entered the camp gates on foot, 20 meters in front of his cardinals, in a driving rain storm. Church bells rang in the southern town of Oswiecim, the Polish name for Auschwitz. After placing a bowl containing a lighted candle at the camp's execution wall, where the Nazis summarily shot thousands of inmates, he moved along a line of 32 camp survivors waiting to meet him. Poland's Chief Rabbi Michael Schudrich recited the Kaddish, while musicians played a haunting Jewish lament.

At the site where Nazis exterminated more than a million people, most of them Jews, the Pope began his address by telling the assembled, "In a place like this, words fail. To speak in this place of horror, in this place where unprecedented mass crimes were committed against God and man, is almost impossible – and it is particularly difficult for a Christian, for a pope from Germany.”

"I could not fail to come here. I had to come," he said. "It is a duty before the truth and the just, due of all who suffered here, a duty before God, for me to come here as the successor of Pope John Paul II and as a son of the German people."

Then an utterly amazing thing happened. Not everyone there understood its biblical significance. But for those who did, it magnificently captured the spiritual meaning of the moment.

Until then we all stood in torrential rain. An aide held an umbrella over the Pope. The fortunate ones among us found some cover. But precisely when the Pope concluded his remarks the rain ceased. A magnificent rainbow appeared in the sky with its arc pointing almost directly to the six memorial markers commemorating the 6 million Jews who had perished.

It was in the time of Noah after the flood and the first cataclysmic time of destruction that God designated the rainbow as an eternal sign to mankind. Its message was God’s promise that a similar devastation would never again be repeated.

What could have been more relevant than a rainbow for those of us who wept at the site of 20th century’s most heinous evil! “Never again” was the divine assurance we perceived from the totally unexpected sign in the sky.

Transference of Power

In the aftermath of the ceremony, hordes of reporters gathered round me to get a rabbinic response to the Pope’s remarks. It soon became apparent though, that they were uninterested in hearing how moved I was by a German Pope’s condemnation of Nazi atrocities. They would have loved to be able to get a headline like, “Jewish leader appalled by Pope’s failure to sufficiently mourn Jewish victims of the Holocaust.”

“Weren’t you disappointed that the Pope didn’t…” was the question raised in variously worded queries goading me to say something negative. But this first encounter with the newly elected Pope was, to my mind, greatly reassuring.

Since that time I have carefully followed Pope Benedict’s relationship with the Jews. He made sure to visit numerous synagogues, has received many delegations from the Jewish community, and pledged repeatedly to uphold the Second Vatican Council’s 1965 teachings about Jews and Judaism that had opened the door to today’s positive relations between the two communities.

Despite some disappointments, some admittedly serious, I concur on the whole with Israeli Chief Rabbi Yona Metzger. After the pope announced he would resign, a spokesman quoted Metzger as saying, “During his period [as Pope] there were the best relations ever between the Church and the Chief Rabbinate and we hope this trend will continue. I think he deserves a lot of credit for advancing inter-religious links the world over between Judaism, Christianity and Islam.”

I do not know what is in the Pope’s heart of hearts. There are those who refuse to consider the possibility that any Christian, especially its highest spiritual leader, could sincerely harbor any goodwill toward our people. History would indeed justify our hesitation. But Pope John Paul II gave hope that as we come closer to the end of days, ancient wounds might find the opportunity for at least a measure of healing. And I believe it would be a mistake for us not to acknowledge the positive efforts of Pope Benedict during the years of his papacy, even as we fully recognize the many differences between our faiths.

Pope Benedict stunned the world with his announcement of imminent retirement. I believe his final message to the world is as important to us as it is to his followers. Unable to properly fulfill his duties due to physical constraints, he has chosen to transfer his position of power and honor to someone more capable. That is certainly an idea worthy of imitation by many.

As to the selection of a new Pope, it is not within the Jewish purview to involve ourselves in such a process. But we hope the Church finds a papal leadership that will continue its path of atonement for the many centuries of its anti-Semitic history, and will do its part to help heal the world.

 

[JaneBond007]

Question for my catholic sisters:

Well, we used to observe Passover and I think one of the reasons I don't observe it today is partly due to the tedious preparations. It can be murderous (for me, at least). But...given our heritage, would you, if you were of that heritage, still observe some form of Passover? I sometimes feel so guilty and unappreciative.

 

[Galadriel]

Question for my catholic sisters:

Well, we used to observe Passover and I think one of the reasons I don't observe it today is partly due to the tedious preparations. It can be murderous (for me, at least). But...given our heritage, would you, if you were of that heritage, still observe some form of Passover? I sometimes feel so guilty and unappreciative.

I have a good friend who is Jewish she and her mom became Christians (I think Methodist? I forget the specific denom) and she still celebrates Passover as well as Easter. She really enjoys celebrating both, and I think it also helps her form a deeper appreciation for her faith, heritage, and history.

 

[JaneBond007]

With all that G-d has given me, I just feel I'm not quite appreciating what I could. At the same time, I don't want to think that my salvation depended upon it. I'd like to think of it as a joyous occasion, but....I can barely keep up with the catholic holidays and they don't take nearly as much prep, except for not eating bacon and beef on Fridays. Which is funny, cuz I'm always worrying about the "legalism" thing.

Funniest....a few years ago when I sat in the blessed sacrament with the siddur or prayer book in my hand pondering what to do, He appeared to me and told me, "you have 2 choices, orthodox judaism or catholicism." So, I started looking at them and figured out..."they're the same darned orthodox thing! I'll never escape any kind of high holy days!" This thing is built into my bones...and was handed down by Moses, then the apostles. It's just the "system," innit?

 

[Belle Du Jour]

With all that G-d has given me, I just feel I'm not quite appreciating what I could. At the same time, I don't want to think that my salvation depended upon it. I'd like to think of it as a joyous occasion, but....I can barely keep up with the catholic holidays and they don't take nearly as much prep, except for not eating bacon and beef on Fridays. Which is funny, cuz I'm always worrying about the "legalism" thing.

Funniest....a few years ago when I sat in the blessed sacrament with the siddur or prayer book in my hand pondering what to do, He appeared to me and told me, "you have 2 choices, orthodox judaism or catholicism." So, I started looking at them and figured out..."they're the same darned orthodox thing! I'll never escape any kind of high holy days!" This thing is built into my bones...and was handed down by Moses, then the apostles. It's just the "system," innit?

I hear you about the Catholic feast days We have a lot going on LOL. I have never celebrated Passover but I am very interested in learning more about how the two faiths are similar. Please share some examples if you have time.

 

[Belle Du Jour]

I went to Tenebrae last night and it definitely has Jewish roots. They played solemn Hebrew music and we read passages from lamentations and psalms while candles were extinguished one by one. Has anyone done that before?

 

[Galadriel]

I went to Tenebrae last night and it definitely has Jewish roots. They played solemn Hebrew music and we read passages from lamentations and psalms while candles were extinguished one by one. Has anyone done that before?

Haven't done it, but it sounds amazing!

 

[JaneBond007]

@Belle Du Jour

I'll come back with a proper post on it. I'm so beat right now...family is coming over. Yikes! That means major cleanup oy vey. But I'll share some insight on the Haggadah and the Passover plate.

Galadriel

I've never heard of Tenebrae. I feel ashamed...or maybe I was taught about it but never observed it? RCIA was ages ago lol. I found this youtube of it and will be watching it tonight. I seriously need to learn so much more of our ancient faith.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tesCU_wafbM

 

[Galadriel]

@Belle Du Jour

I'll come back with a proper post on it. I'm so beat right now...family is coming over. Yikes! That means major cleanup oy vey. But I'll share some insight on the Haggadah and the Passover plate.

@Galadriel

I've never heard of Tenebrae. I feel ashamed...or maybe I was taught about it but never observed it? RCIA was ages ago lol. I found this youtube of it and will be watching it tonight. I seriously need to learn so much more of our ancient faith.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tesCU_wafbM

Thanks for sharing, JB!

 

[Galadriel]

LOVED what this lady had to say about veiling (she's a convert entering the Church this Easter):

What has finally brought about my YES to veil during Mass (beginning after my baptism- though, I still am not sure if I should begin on Holy Saturday, after my baptism, wait until Easter, or next weekend...if anyone has thoughts on this, please share! I am really not sure when would be most appropriate!) is reflecting on what is veiled in the Church. Chalice, tabernacle, and crucifixes, and statues, toward the end of Lent. What do all of those things have in common? They are all sacred, precious reminders of our faith. They are all worthy of beginning veiled. They are all worthy of being hidden, so that when they are revealed we will once again be reminded of their beauty, importance, and significance. What is the one other thing that was once commonly veiled during Mass?

Women. So, beyond humbleness, beyond modesty, beyond 1 Corinthians is the Church saying; "YOU are worthy of being veiled." Whoa. How could one argue with that? Well, this one could not.

(Read full blog post HERE)

 

[Belle Du Jour]

I veil for TLM and in front of the blessed sacrament if it is exposed. I also veiled at the.feast of the immaculate conception in honor of our lady. Honestly, I think people judge you when you veil (outside of Latin mass). I know their opinion doesn't matter but i hate feeling like I'm drawing attention to myself. Do you veil Galadriel?

 

[Belle Du Jour]

Ladies don't forget to start the divine mercy novena today! Now more than ever we need to implore his grace and mercy with all that's happening with the possible redefinition of marriage.

O blood and water which gushed forth from the heart of Jesus as a fountain of mercy for us, I trust in You!

 

[Belle Du Jour]

New article about the shroud of Turin: http://cosmiclog.nbcnews.com/_news/...otlight-with-new-pope-new-app-new-debate?lite

 

[Belle Du Jour]

Watching The Passion of the Christ has me all the way messed up on this Good Friday.

Mother of Sorrows, you walked every step of the way with Christ and watched your Son crucified on a tree. Unite my suffering with yours today.

 

[Galadriel]

I veil for TLM and in front of the blessed sacrament if it is exposed. I also veiled at the.feast of the immaculate conception in honor of our lady. Honestly, I think people judge you when you veil (outside of Latin mass). I know their opinion doesn't matter but i hate feeling like I'm drawing attention to myself. Do you veil @Galadriel?

I veil at TLM but I do see some women veil for NO at my parish.

 

[Galadriel]

Watching The Passion of the Christ has me all the way messed up on this Good Friday.

Mother of Sorrows, you walked every step of the way with Christ and watched your Son crucified on a tree. Unite my suffering with yours today.

Watching it right now with DH.

 

[Galadriel]

Happy Holy Saturday.

I always think about the Harrowing of Hell on this day:

 

[HWAY]

Would you mind explaining this to a person who was never tauggt about the Harrowing of Hell? I attended a passion play two weeks ago that included this doctrine. I've heard it mentioned but never researched this doctrine.

 

[Galadriel]

Would you mind explaining this to a person who was never tauggt about the Harrowing of Hell? I attended a passion play two weeks ago that included this doctrine. I've heard it mentioned but never researched this doctrine.

HWAY

This is the Old English and Middle English term for the triumphant descent of Christ into hell (or Hades) between the time of His Crucifixion and His Resurrection, when, according to Christian belief, He brought salvation to the souls held captive there since the beginning of the world. (Catholic Encyclopedia)

The Harrowing of Hell is based on the New Testament, especially 1 Peter 3:18-20:

For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.

From the moment of Christ's death on Good Friday until His resurrection on Sunday, He went to "make proclamation" to the spirits in Hades (e.g., those in Abraham's Bosom. Think of the parable of Lazarus).

Christ's words here also reflect the Harrowing of Hell:

And He called them to Himself and began speaking to them in parables, “How can Satan cast out Satan? “If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. “If a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand. “If Satan has risen up against himself and is divided, he cannot stand, but he is finished! “But no one can enter the strong man’s house and plunder his property unless he first binds the strong man, and then he will plunder his house. (Mark 3:23-27)

Christ is the one who "binds the strong man" and "plunders" the strong man's house by rescuing the souls of those in Abraham's Bosom waiting on the Messiah.