Spirits of the Deceased

[auparavant]

When I hear people talk of "spirits," I often thin they are referring to evil spirits and not the holy souls.

 

[aribell]

Hi again ladies, so sorry I ducked out of the convo like that (I'm in the process of moving). But I really appreciate the stories shared and the perspectives given.

About my friend, Shimmie was totally right in sensing a spirit of unforgiveness. The life led by his father and the circumstances surrounding his death were tragic and emotionally draining. I've told him before that he will have to forgive his father at some point, and he acknowledged that, but it doesn't seem like he's quite there yet. His family members seem very stuck, just as they were kind of stuck when he was alive.

Something else I should have mentioned was that he said he felt his "relationship" with his father was better now than when he was alive. Much has been said about where the soul and spirit go after death, but I'm thinking we all agree that we don't have a "relationship" with the deceased?

He is not at all Catholic, but he asked why his father can't be one of the "great cloud of witnesses" watching events unfold here and cheering him on; the concept he was getting at was very "communion of the saints"-ish. However, it seemed like the issue was really more one of not wanting to let him go. I have lost loved ones, and while I do not know what it is like to lose a parent, my family treats death as a normal part of life and you simply let the deceased go, you don't hold on emotionally. Also, idk, the story about Carlton Pearson was also striking because he seems like one who changed his theology to fit his emotional state.

So, I don't know what to tell him just yet. I think that even if it were possible to have visitations that the Lord permitted, that we are still told in Scripture not to seek communication with the dead.

 

[MSee]

@nicola.kirwan I don't have much to add except I pray for your wisdom in dealing with the matter and for your friends healing from the hurt of his loss and deliverance from deception. Unfortunately the longer his "relationship" with the assumed spirit of his dead father continues, the more dangerous it gets.

This verse may have already been written but the bolded part is on my mind:

Isaiah 8:19 When men tell you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living?

 

[Iwanthealthyhair67]

nicola.kirwan

thanks for the above post it helped to fill in the blanks ...

when my mother died even thou we were close, there were some unresolved things that that I felt she needed to be aware of that I had never told her, even though her prognosis was grim her death somehow still took me by surprise, being the oldest child all of the repsonsibility of the funeral, house, my 17 year old sister fell on me, and there was family drama to match, I was overwhelmed and frustrated.

Months later at church, the service turned into a delivernace ceremony my Pastor came up to me and whispered in my ear; "you need to forgive your mother" well I searched my heart and realized that there was some unforgivensess there that I needed to get rid of.

With your friend; he feels by talking to his father helps him in some way ...what he needs to to his tell Father everything and let it go, the relationship seems better to him because his dad is not around to explain his side or to say I'm sorry, the best that he can to is tell God and ask for a heart of forgiveness toward his dad ...

You can continue to pray and support him and gently point out that he is dealing with unforgiveness, but he has to come to that place for himself.

I pray that its quickly as he is opening doorways for other things to take place ...

 

[loulou7]

Btw, @loulou7 I thought that this was a commendable refutation of the heresy of "soul sleep"

Origin of the Soul Sleep Heresy

The phrase “soul sleep” per se is not a Scriptural term. In fact, you never find the soul linked to sleep anywhere in the Bible. It is actually a hybrid heterodoxy contrived from the Biblical euphemism for the sleep-like appearance of the body at death (2 Sam. 7:12; 2 Pet. 3:4) which has been hijacked by heretics.

A study of church history proves soul sleep has no roots in Christian orthodoxy, and no place in sound exegesis. And for the first three centuries of the church the immediate ascendency of the soul to Paradise (aka Heaven) at death (Luke 23:43) was never questioned. Then, according to historian Philip Schaff, soul sleep fomented in the mind of a specious fourth century pantheist named Arnobius. Since that time, poor exegesis has been the main mechanism soul sleepers have employed in the maintenance of their ruse. Today its champions are noteworthy indeed: atheists, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Christadelphianists, Old school Armstrongism, and Seventh Day Adventists. Talk about a spurious crew!...

Death as understood in the Old Testament

As previously stated, by and large, Jews were fatalists believing in a future– albeit general- resurrection: “Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise

. . . and the earth shall cast out the dead” (Isa. 26:19). To them death was lonely, somber, and somewhat fearful:

David mourned, “For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks” (Psa. 6:5).

Job anguished: “Are not my days few? cease then, and let me alone, that I may take comfort a little, Before I go whence I shall not return, even to the land of darkness and the shadow of death; A land of darkness, as darkness itself; and of the shadow of death, without any order, and where the light is as darkness” (Job 10:20-22).



Even though these men loved the Lord with their entire being, they seem to have been almost smothered in a blanket of despair when contemplating their own death.

Death as revealed in the New Testament

By the time of Christ, the doctrine of the resurrection of the dead was a highly debated issue. Greek philosophers like Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, and Epicurus had launched circuitous philosophies that diverted focus from God to man, and from eternal to temporal.

As the NT was written- and a new dispensation unfolded– God began unwrapping the precious yet somewhat shadowy secrets stored in the OT (1 Cor. 2:7). Not surprising, this became startling revelation to Old Testament Jews, “who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage” (Heb. 2:15).

One person the Holy Spirit chose to reveal these mysteries to was a brilliant OT scholar we know as the Apostle Paul (1 Cor. 2:7; 15:51; Eph. 1:9; 3:3). Interestingly, while Paul’s teachings in some ways mirrored the OT thought regarding bodies falling asleep at death (1 Cor. 11:30; 1 Thess. 4:14), when God revealed as many as 14 Books of the NT to Paul, He also gave him a fresh understanding of what happens to the spirit and soul at death; that it becomes absent from the body and present with the Lord (2 Cor. 5:8; Phil. 1:21). From that point forward Paul taught that death was not to be dreaded, but looked upon with anticipation and hope somewhat like a graduation (1 Cor. 15:54-55). This of course garnered the ire of his former Sanhedrin associates who now sought to kill him for teaching such things (Acts 9:23; 26:21).

5 Great Truths Refute Soul Sleep

There is an erroneous doctrine known as “general resurrection, general judgment” that teaches one day all the dead throughout history will be awakened from their sleep and summoned to the Great White Throne (Rev. 20:11-15) where they’ll stand before God to enter either Heaven or the Lake of Fire.

If that is true, and Scripture proves that it is not, every saint in history should be asleep somewhere awaiting judgment. And yet, such is not the case as we will see from the testimony of Jesus and several saints that died and yet were very much alive.

Note if you will, the following 5 great Scriptural truths that will easily repudiate the soul sleep heresy:

TRUTH #1: The Bible refutes soul sleep in that God is God of the living, not the dead! Since God is life and the source of all life (Gen. 1:20; Deut. 30:20; John 1:4; 14:6), apart from Him is considered death (Eph. 2:1,5). Toward the end of His physical ministry on earth, Jesus was confronted by the godless liberal Sadducees who had led the Jews to believe there was no future resurrection. Once while trying to trap Him, they disingenuously inquired about the status of marriage in the after life. Of course Jesus spotted the ploy and called them ignorant which not only sewed their mouths shut but no doubt helped seal His fate:

“Have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living” (Mat 22:31-32).

What does this mean? If you believe in soul sleep, it means nothing. If you believe Jesus, you understand that it means these patriarchs (Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob) along with all the saints of history, have been alive– not asleep– all these years (see Luke 16:22-31; Rev. 4:4, etc).

TRUTH #2: Jesus refuted soul sleep by promising we would never die! In a public pledge Jesus promised: “He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life” (John 5:24). Later Jesus said, “If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death” (John 8:51). Again, Christ’s integrity is at stake here. Every person who heard the Lord utter this promise died, and their bodies were buried. In light of that, if Jesus was referring to the death of the body as soul sleepers are forced to maintain– and in view of the fact that all those disciples bodies eventually died (fell asleep)- wouldn’t that make a liar out of our Savior?

TRUTH #3: Paul refuted soul sleep when he taught that absent from the body is to be present with the Lord! As we have stated previously, Old Testament writers operated under the disadvantage of limited light and therefore viewed the resurrection as a one-time future event.

Paul, a converted rabbi, was given additional revelation, adding light to what had been known regarding the intermediate state of the body and soul at death. Remember, he had experienced a trip to paradise so he knew first hand how real and magnificent it was (1 Cor. 12:2). He taught more about death and resurrection than any other Bible writer. Although he agreed with the Old Testament writers that death brought about the appearance of a body falling asleep (1 Cor. 15:6; 1 Thess. 4:14), he never implied that a sleeping body brought about a sleeping soul or spirit- ever. Please consider God’s Word here:

“Whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord (2 Cor. 5:6, 8). Did you see that reinforcement? So not to confuse his readers, he said it one way, then repeated it another way. In the body, away from the Lord. With the Lord, away from the body. How much clearer can it get? Then, three years later this captivating thought surfaced again in a letter to the Philippians. “For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you” (Phil. 1:23-24). Once again, to depart from earth (death) is to be with Christ. No soul sleep, no awaiting a general resurrection, and no confusion for those who are not bound by the fallacious traditions of religious rogues who continue to hold an eerie spell over their duped disciples.

TRUTH #4: Hebrews refutes soul sleep by teaching that the spirits of those who died exist right now in Heaven! “But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the Heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in Heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel” (Heb 12:22-24).


Source HERE

Hi Galadriel, Thank you for sharing your information with me. As I wrote previously, my great grandmother was Catholic, so I’m familiar with some of the things that you’ve have stated in your postings. We are definitely not on the same page concerning our beliefs about certain subjects of The Bible. And I’m going to leave it at that!

 

[Galadriel]

Thanks for adding more details nicola.kirwan

As mentioned earlier, most Christians throughout history have held to the Communion of Saints and the "cloud of witnesses" as mentioned in Hebrews.

However with all the information shared so far, I'm leaning toward a *possible* case of obsession, but I can't make an accurate call because I obviously don't know the entire situation or all of the pertinent facts. Ask your friend to seek spiritual counseling; continue being supportive and pray with and for him.

Hi again ladies, so sorry I ducked out of the convo like that (I'm in the process of moving). But I really appreciate the stories shared and the perspectives given.

About my friend, @Shimmie was totally right in sensing a spirit of unforgiveness. The life led by his father and the circumstances surrounding his death were tragic and emotionally draining. I've told him before that he will have to forgive his father at some point, and he acknowledged that, but it doesn't seem like he's quite there yet. His family members seem very stuck, just as they were kind of stuck when he was alive.

Something else I should have mentioned was that he said he felt his "relationship" with his father was better now than when he was alive. Much has been said about where the soul and spirit go after death, but I'm thinking we all agree that we don't have a "relationship" with the deceased?

He is not at all Catholic, but he asked why his father can't be one of the "great cloud of witnesses" watching events unfold here and cheering him on; the concept he was getting at was very "communion of the saints"-ish. However, it seemed like the issue was really more one of not wanting to let him go. I have lost loved ones, and while I do not know what it is like to lose a parent, my family treats death as a normal part of life and you simply let the deceased go, you don't hold on emotionally. Also, idk, the story about Carlton Pearson was also striking because he seems like one who changed his theology to fit his emotional state.

So, I don't know what to tell him just yet. I think that even if it were possible to have visitations that the Lord permitted, that we are still told in Scripture not to seek communication with the dead.

 

[sweetvi]

This is a story about a man who visited he'll. He talks about his experience but one interesting one is when he referred to different forms of demons, he talks about familiar spirits and ghosts

 

[sweetvi]

Oops. Here is the link lol
http://www.testimoniesofheavenandhell.com/2010/12/placebo-heaven-testimony-by-howard-pittman/

 

[Galadriel]

Oops. Here is the link lol
http://www.testimoniesofheavenandhell.com/2010/12/placebo-heaven-testimony-by-howard-pittman/

Based on Mr. Pittman's own words, I am inclined to state that his visions/experience was not from God.

Here's why:

1) He claims that Satan is enthroned in the second heaven, beneath God (who's in the third Heaven)

2) He claims that our souls are all identical, and that we wouldn't be able to tell each other apart except that we have bodies that look different. He claims our bodies aren't part of our true selves. This is wrong. A human being is a creature of body + soul. We will even be resurrected one day and have our bodies and souls reunited forever.

3) Furthermore, he says

Although humans are spirit beings, we are confined to physical bodies.

We are not spirits trapped in physical bodies. This is a heresy known as Gnosticism.

4) Though he claims a near death experience where he felt he was going to die and was resolved to go to God and ask that his life be spared, the first thing he heard was the voice of the devil, and MOST of the journey he experienced was visions of demons and how powerful and frightful they were.

There are a few more red flags, but that's what stuck out so far...

 

[sweetvi]

Thanks for reading... I posted before I finished reading. When I read further and noted he got to speak to God and see him... Hmmmm. I could not help you wonder? He is the first person I know that who got to be present in front of God and speak to him and live..? But who knows

 

[Galadriel]

Thanks for reading... I posted before I finished reading. When I read further and noted he got to speak to God and see him... Hmmmm. I could not help you wonder? He is the first person I know that who got to be present in front of God and speak to him and live..? But who knows

sweetvi I saw the YouTube video (Placebo) the other day and also thought it was interesting at first, but when certain red flags were popping up, I was like .

 

[MuseofTroy]

This is a tough subject because society has diluted the Word of God so that people only go for the "feel" good messages. No one wants to think about the possibility that mom, dad, or another closed loved one is in hell after they pass away because they never accepted Christ in their life. I had to correct my mom (who I adore) a few months ago because she once told me if she ever passed away she would watch out for me and guide me. I said...Um no mom, if some spirit comes me that looks like you I'm going to assume it's a demon and rebuke it. Visitations from spirits usually means your hedge is low and/or you have a cursed object in your home. Take a look around your home to see if you have any objects that might attract demons. So many people have those hindu and Budda statues in their house not realizing what that they are getting cursed. Certain objects attract demons into your dwelling. For some reason Black people love to buy those african statues as home decor when in reality those are cursed objects. You don't know who made them or what was prayed into those spirits. Death is hard but you still have to live and move forward. That's why its important to show appreciate for the people you love while they are here and treat everyone with respect and dignity.

 

[CosmopolitanChic]

Hi Sweetvi :Rose:

Carlton's story is another example of how grieving for loved ones is an open door for satan to come in and wreck havoc in one's life, even to the point of tearing them away from the truth.

Carlton had a powerful Ministry and the annointing of God was definitely with him. However, his grief over his parents dying without Jesus Christ got the best of him and he began teaching there there is no hell or devil. He could not believe that God would send/allow his parents to suffer in hell.

Years Prior to his 'fall' ... He studied under Katherine Kulman, Oral Roberts University (studied and taught); Kenneth Hagan and many of the other 'ancient's of that era in Ministry. He was also close to TD Jakes.

For years he was known as the "Single Pastor" (unmarried) and was sought after by many women to become his wife. It was in the early 1990's when he met his wife Gina and they married and had two beautiful children.

Later in the mid to late 1990's Carlton began to show signs of change. At first, those who were close to him were in dis-belief and yet they had to accept that something wrong was indeed going on with Carlton. Carlton was set in his doctrine of no hell or devil. He began to teach heavily on a new coined phraze "the Gospel of Inclusion" which stated 'everyone goes to heaven, gays, as well as other non Christian faiths.... *sigh* This is so sad.

Of course there was division in the body; he lost his 'Mega Church' Ministry and the irony is that his change left him 'open' to a Lesbian Minister who came to give him 'solace' which was actually an entrapment as Carlton in his brokeness began to embrace the gay church ministry.

I know this 'first hand' as Carlton was a very close friend and actually 'family' to our Church. He ministered at our Church often; he was never 'too good' to sit with anyone, no matter who they were and talk and laugh and especially pray with them. To this day, everyone that I know from my former Church still grieve over the change in this man's heart and are still praying for him and his family.

Recently I read that the gay church where he as 'leading' as Pastor has asked him to 'step down', for they wanted someone else with more experience... in that area of ministry.

I have no doubt that God can use this as a vehicle to bring Carlton back where he belongs preaching and teaching all the more the True Gospel of Jesus Christ. Enough is Enough...

Jesus said, 'Simon, Simon satan desires to have you and to sift you as wheat..."

This is what satan is out to do when someone is grieving... sift them as wheat and to tear them away from the fold of Jesus Christ...

Shimmie, is that lesbian Pastor the same one from the Bay Area Love Center Church where Walter Hawkins was Pastor? I hear she also wanted Walter Hawkins to make his church strictly a gay church, but even though allegedly, he was gay himself he declined and she became angry. I understand on his deathbed he told his son that it homosexuality was wrong it it not the will of GOD.