Soooo I was watching Creflo talk about a recording of hell

[Laela]

So tell me, what happens to the spirit when someone dies? I understand that we lie "silent" in the grave. This is because our spirit has separated from the body.

What happens to the spirit?

 

[divya]

So tell me, what happens to the spirit when someone dies? I understand that we lie "silent" in the grave. This is because our spirit has separated from the body.

What happens to the spirit?

Some of us also do not believe in any inner spirit that is conscious after death. If that was the case then we would be immortal. The Scriptures state that God alone is immortal (1 Timothy 1:17) and only when He comes, will He bestow upon the righteous immortality. (1 Corinthians 15:53).


Ecclesiates 12:7 - Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.The translation of the word spirit in Hebrew is ruach. Ruach simply means breath. Here is a further explanation:

Problem: This passage is cited as evidence that man's immortal spirit (or soul) leaves the body at death and returns to God. Solution:

1. The passage makes no distinction between "good" and "bad" spirits.
2. If the spirit is to return to God, it must have come from God. But who would suggest one has a conscious existence before the earthly life begins? Therefore, there is no reason to expect a conscious existence when this life ends.
3. The word "spirit" (Hebrew "ruach") is the same as in Ecc. 3:19 (Heb. "ruach", translated "breath"). could any argue that beasts have, or are, immortal "spirits"?
4. The writer of Ecclesiastes emphatically teaches the mortality of man. (See Ecc. 9:5,6,10; 3:19,20). http://www.wrestedscriptures.com/b01immortality/ecclesiastes12v7.html


Ecclesiastes 9:4-10 states in much detail the condition of the dead.

1."the dead know nothing"
2. "they have no further reward"
3. "the memory of them is forgotten" [this does not mean OUR memory of them, but THEIR memory]
4. Their emotions have vanished
5. "never again will they have a part in anything that happens under the sun"
6. "there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom" among the dead.

 

[Laela]

Some of us also do not believe in any inner spirit that is conscious after death. If that was the case then we would be immortal. The Scriptures state that God alone is immortal (1 Timothy 1:17) and only when He comes, will He bestow upon the righteous immortality. (1 Corinthians 15:53).

If the spirit doesn't resurrect after death, as you intimate, then why bother get "saved" or live a life of faith? What are we being saved from? You quote some great supporting Scriptures, but when we start to "reason" we can walk that thin line of doubt. I'm not trying to cop out but there are times when reasoning gets the best of us.

The only way for a non-believer to know for sure what happens to them after they die is for them to just DIE. I'd rather believe there is an actual hell, than to die and find out.
Those who believe God's Word believe we are spirits walking around in temporary bodies.

Ecclesiates 12:7 - Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

That's a good try, but this passage is referring to those who remember their Creator/God. When they return to dust (physical death), their spirit return to God. Ths spirits of who choose not to remember their Creator or live for him will not return to him but instead go to judgment. Actually, hell wasn't even created for us, it was created for Satan and his followers as punishment after they chose to break from God and go to Earth to have sex with humans:

Matthew 25: 41 says "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels..

Hell got enlargen when Jesus died, went to hell to save others and rose again. After that, those who who choose to be followers of Satan will face the same punishment he does because God made room. Isaiah 5:14

Ecclesiastes 9:4-10 states in much detail the condition of the dead.

1."the dead know nothing"
2. "they have no further reward"
3. "the memory of them is forgotten" [this does not mean OUR memory of them, but THEIR memory]
4. Their emotions have vanished
5. "never again will they have a part in anything that happens under the sun"
6. "there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom" among the dead.

This is all true... referring to the dead body. The physical body gets no rewards, has no emtions.... "under the sun" is clear reference to EARTH as we know it.

I read the Scriptures to understand God and what he is saying, not to question or doubt. I think that when we start "reasoning" based on our intellect, we can get caught up in twisting the Scriptures to the point we think God is contradictory or we can quote out of context. There is no confusion in the Bible. Many Scriptures can be cross-referenced.

When Jesus spoke in Parables, he was speaking to those who would understand. For not everyone "understands". In Matthew 13: 9-11, the disciples ask Jesus why he always speaks in parables. He says "He who has ears, let him hear... "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them."

Who is THEM? Those who are NOT open to listen to God.

 

[Highly Favored8]

Very good thread ladies I am learning a lot from all of your posts. Very good questions and answers. Very Good.

 

[divya]

If the spirit doesn't resurrect after death, as you intimate, then why bother get "saved" or live a life of faith? What are we being saved from? You quote some great supporting Scriptures, but when we start to "reason" we can walk that thin line of doubt. I'm not trying to cop out but there are times when reasoning gets the best of us.

The only way for a non-believer to know for sure what happens to them after they die is for them to just DIE. I'd rather believe there is an actual hell, than to die and find out.
Those who believe God's Word believe we are spirits walking around in temporary bodies.

But where are your Scriptures to support this? Jesus resurrects us. The sound of His voice will bring the righteous up from the grave (hell) at the second coming.


1 Thess 4:16 -17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:and the dead in Christ shall rise first:Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord

I Cor 15:52 -54 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

I respect your choice believe what you do, but I will only believe what the Scriptures state.

That's a good try, but this passage is referring to those who remember their Creator/God. When they return to dust (physical death), their spirit return to God. Ths spirits of who choose not to remember their Creator or live for him will not return to him but instead go to judgment. Actually, hell wasn't even created for us, it was created for Satan and his followers as punishment after they chose to break from God and go to Earth to have sex with humans:

Matthew 25: 41 says "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels..

Hell got enlargen when Jesus died, went to hell to save others and rose again. After that, those who who choose to be followers of Satan will face the same punishment he does because God made room. Isaiah 5:14

this is all true... referring to the dead body. The physical body gets no rewards, has no emtions.... "under the sun" is clear reference to EARTH as we know it.

I read the Scriptures to understand God and what he is saying, not to question or doubt. I think that when we start "reasoning" based on our intellect, we can get caught up in twisting the Scriptures to the point we think God is contradictory or we can quote out of context. There is no confusion in the Bible. Many Scriptures can be cross-referenced.

When Jesus spoke in Parables, he was speaking to those who would understand. For not everyone "understands". In Matthew 13: 9-11, the disciples ask Jesus why he always speaks in parables. He says "He who has ears, let him hear... "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them."

Who is THEM? Those who are NOT open to listen to God.

Where are the verses that say the bold? Those other verses you give are true, but they don't deal with the issue at hand. For me, I must have multiple verses to support an idea, and I also use the Greek and the Hebrew to make sue that I understand exactly what is being spoken about.

Hell is used 54 times in the Bible, generally to refer to the grave. So you are right...there is no confusion. However, it may require very in depth study.

ETA: The whole thread deals with this issue...but just to add..

Sheol translates to "the grave" in Hebrew.
Hades translates to "the grave" in the Greek.

 

[divya]

This is a good site that was posted earlier. It takes time to read but you can go little by little, verse by verse and use your translations.

http://www.thetruthabouthell.net/

If you don't like reading that much online, it can be print out via pdf.

http://www.thetruthabouthell.net/TheTruthAboutHellFire.pdf

 

[topsyturvy86]

So tell me, what happens to the spirit when someone dies? I understand that we lie "silent" in the grave. This is because our spirit has separated from the body.

What happens to the spirit?

That's a good question. I found something very interesting in the apocrypha which i'll paste below about what happens after death. Its in the book of 2 Esdras : 75 - 115 (Esdras apparently = Ezra)

75 I answered and said, "If I have found favor in your sight, O Lord, show this also to your servant: whether after death, as soon as everyone of us yields up the soul, we shall be kept in rest until those times come when you will renew the creation, or whether we shall be tormented at once?"

76 He answered me and said, "I will show you that also, but do not include yourself with those who have shown scorn, or number yourself among those who are tormented.77 For you have a treasure of works stored up with the Most High, but it will not be shown to you until the last times.78 Now concerning death, the teaching is: When the decisive decree has gone out from the Most High that a person shall die, as the spirit leaves the body to return again to him who gave it, first of all it adores the glory of the Most High.79 If it is one of those who have shown scorn and have not kept the way of the Most High, who have despised his law and hated those who fear God--80 such spirits shall not enter into habitations, but shall immediately wander about in torments, always grieving and sad, in seven ways.81 The first way, because they have scorned the law of the Most High.82 The second way, because they cannot now make a good repentance so that they may live.83 The third way, they shall see the reward laid up for those who have trusted the covenants of the Most High.84 The fourth way, they shall consider the torment laid up for themselves in the last days.85 The fifth way, they shall see how the habitations of the others are guarded by angels in profound quiet.86 The sixth way, they shall see how some of them will cross overs into torments.87 The seventh way, which is worset than all the ways that have been mentioned, because they shall utterly waste away in confusion and be consumed with shame,u and shall wither with fear at seeing the glory of the Most High in whose presence they sinned while they were alive, and in whose presence they are to be judged in the last times.
88 "Now this is the order of those who have kept the ways of the Most High, when they shall be separated from their mortal body.v89 During the time that they lived in it,w they laboriously served the Most High, and withstood danger every hour so that they might keep the law of the Lawgiver perfectly.90 Therefore this is the teaching concerning them:91 First of all, they shall see with great joy the glory of him who receives them, for they shall have rest in seven orders.92 The first order, because they have striven with great effort to overcome the evil thought that was formed with them, so that it might not lead them astray from life into death.93 The second order, because they see the perplexity in which the souls of the ungodly wander and the punishment that awaits them.94 The third order, they see the witness that he who formed them bears concerning them, that throughout their life they kept the law with which they were entrusted.95 The fourth order, they understand the rest that they now enjoy, being gathered into their chambers and guarded by angels in profound quiet, and the glory waiting for them in the last days.96 The fifth order, they rejoice that they have now escaped what is corruptible and shall inherit what is to come; and besides they see the straits and toilx from which they have been delivered, and the spacious liberty that they are to receive and enjoy in immortality.97 The sixth order, when it is shown them how their face is to shine like the sun, and how they are to be made like the light of the stars, being incorruptible from then on.98 The seventh order, which is greater than all that have been mentioned, because they shall rejoice with boldness, and shall be confident without confusion, and shall be glad without fear, for they press forward to see the face of him whom they served in life and from whom they are to receive their reward when glorified.99 This is the order of the souls of the righteous, as henceforth is announced;y and the previously mentioned are the ways of torment that those who would not give heed shall suffer hereafter."
100 Then I answered and said, "Will time therefore be given to the souls, after they have been separated from the bodies, to see what you have described to me?"
101 He said to me, "They shall have freedom for seven days, so that during these seven days they may see the things of which you have been told, and afterwards they shall be gathered in their habitations."


102 I answered and said, "If I have found favor in your sight, show further to me, your servant, whether on the day of judgment the righteous will be able to intercede for the ungodly or to entreat the Most High for them--103 fathers for sons or sons for parents, brothers for brothers, relatives for their kindred, or friends for those who are most dear."
104 He answered me and said, "Since you have found favor in my sight, I will show you this also. The day of judgment is decisivez and displays to all the seal of truth. Just as now a father does not send his son, or a son his father, or a master his servant, or a friend his dearest friend, to be illa or sleep or eat or be healed in his place,105 so no one shall ever pray for another on that day, neither shall anyone lay a burden on another;b for then all shall bear their own righteousness and unrighteousness."
36 106 I answered and said, "How then do we find that first Abraham prayed for the people of Sodom, and Moses for our ancestors who sinned in the desert,37 107 and Joshua after him for Israel in the days of Achan,38 108 and Samuel in the days of Saul,c and David for the plague, and Solomon for those at the dedication,39 109 and Elijah for those who received the rain, and for the one who was dead, that he might live,40 110 and Hezekiah for the people in the days of Sennacherib, and many others prayed for many?41 111 So if now, when corruption has increased and unrighteousness has multiplied, the righteous have prayed for the ungodly, why will it not be so then as well?"

42 112 He answered me and said, "This present world is not the end; the full glory does notd remain in it;e therefore those who were strong prayed for the weak.43 113 But the day of judgment will be the end of this age and the beginningf of the immortal age to come, in which corruption has passed away,44 114 sinful indulgence has come to an end, unbelief has been cut off, and righteousness has increased and truth has appeared.45 115 Therefore no one will then be able to have mercy on someone who has been condemned in the judgment, or to harmg someone who is victorious."

 

[divya]

That's a good question. I found something very interesting in the apocrypha which i'll paste below about what happens after death. Its in the book of 2 Esdras : 75 - 115 (Esdras apparently = Ezra)

Interesting, it's very different from the KJV of the Bible. 2 Esdras is not part of the Hebrew Old Testament or the Greek New Testament.

Wonder if that that's an unmentioned basis of many mainstream Christian denominations. It was canonized by the Roman Catholic church in 1546 AD, largely supporting it's doctrine. But I'm seeing here that 2 Esdras was rejected by Roman Catholics.

http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/apocryph.htm

Here is the KJV of the Scriptures, which is completely different and translated from the Hebrew Old Testament:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezra 2;&version=9;

 

[topsyturvy86]

Interesting, it's very different from the KJV of the Bible. It isn't part of the Hebrew Old Testament or the Greek New Testament.

Wonder if that that's an unmentioned basis of many mainstream Christian denominations. It was canonized by the Roman Catholic church in 1546 AD, largely supporting it's doctrine. But I'm seeing here that 2 Esdras was rejected by Roman Catholics but kept by the Greek Orthodox faith.

http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/apocryph.htm
http://www.bible.ca/b-canon-orthodox-catholic-christian-bible-books.htm

I don't know the history of the apocrypha and have never cared enough to find out to be honest. I know all of the books were taken out of the bible for reason's such as not being relevant or Holy spirit inspired but I read it anyway because i'm curious. From what ive read so far, it doesn't contradict the bible, just filled with stories.

I came across that a while ago and thought id share as it's always good to know what's out there.

 

[topsyturvy86]

Interesting, it's very different from the KJV of the Bible. 2 Esdras is not part of the Hebrew Old Testament or the Greek New Testament.

Wonder if that that's an unmentioned basis of many mainstream Christian denominations. It was canonized by the Roman Catholic church in 1546 AD, largely supporting it's doctrine. But I'm seeing here that 2 Esdras was rejected by Roman Catholics.

http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/apocryph.htm

Here is the KJV of the Scriptures, which is completely different and translated from the Hebrew Old Testament:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezra 2;&version=9;

I highly doubt it. They're mainly old testament books and Christianity is based mainly on Christ.

 

[divya]

I don't know the history of the apocrypha and have never cared enough to find out to be honest. I know all of the books were taken out of the bible for reason's such as not being relevant or Holy spirit inspired but I read it anyway because i'm curious. From what ive read so far, it doesn't contradict the bible, just filled with stories.

I came across that a while ago and thought id share as it's always good to know what's out there.

Cool. My mother grew up Roman Catholic and many of my relatives still profess the faith. So it's something I had a little knowledge about, but this led to more. Honestly, I find that it does contradict with the Scriptures, which is likely why it wasn't included. Things like "alms make atonement for sin" and "Mary being born without sin" are a few. But that's just my belief. Maybe some other Protestant faiths believe that...

 

[divya]

I highly doubt it. They're mainly old testament books and Christianity is based mainly on Christ.

I'm confused. What does that mean? The Old Testament predicts Christ, and so is just as relevant to Christianity.

 

[topsyturvy86]

Cool. My mother grew up Roman Catholic and many of my relative still profess the faith. So it's something I had a little knowledge about, but this lead to more. Honestly, I find that it does contradict with the Scriptures, which is likely why it wasn't included. Things like "alms make atonement for sin" and "Mary being born without sin" are a few. But that's just my belief. Maybe some other Protestant faiths believe that...

No, u're talking about the Catholic bible, the corrupt one. They shouldn't really have those anymore. The old Catholic bible included the apocrypha books but they're not the same thing. Read the website below, it looks at the history of the bible as we know it today.

While Noah Webster, just a few years after producing his famous Dictionary of the English Language, would produce his own modern translation of the English Bible in 1833; the public remained too loyal to the King James Version for Webster’s version to have much impact. It was not really until the 1880’s that England’s own planned replacement for their King James Bible, the English Revised Version(E.R.V.) would become the first English language Bible to gain popular acceptance as a post-King James Version modern-English Bible. The widespread popularity of this modern-English translation brought with it another curious characteristic: the absence of the 14 Apocryphal books.

Up until the 1880’s every Protestant Bible (not just Catholic Bibles) had 80 books, not 66! The inter-testamental books written hundreds of years before Christ called “The Apocrypha” were part of virtually every printing of the Tyndale-Matthews Bible, the Great Bible, the Bishops Bible, the Protestant Geneva Bible, and the King James Bible until their removal in the 1880’s! The original 1611 King James contained the Apocrypha, and King James threatened anyone who dared to print the Bible without the Apocrypha with heavy fines and a year in jail. Only for the last 120 years has the Protestant Church rejected these books, and removed them from their Bibles. This has left most modern-day Christians believing the popular myth that there is something “Roman Catholic” about the Apocrypha. There is, however, no truth in that myth, and no widely-accepted reason for the removal of the Apocrypha in the 1880’s has ever been officially issued by a mainline Protestant denomination.

http://www.greatsite.com/timeline-english-bible-history/

 

[topsyturvy86]

I'm confused. What does that mean? The Old Testament predicts Christ, and so is just as relevant to Christianity.

I highly doubt a form of Christianity would be heavily based on old testament books that aren't even a part of the bible anymore. BUT ... u never know ...

 

[divya]

No, u're talking about the Catholic bible, the corrupt one. They shouldn't really have those anymore. The old Catholic bible included the apocrypha books but they're not the same thing. Read the website below, it looks at the history of the bible as we know it today.

http://www.greatsite.com/timeline-english-bible-history/

Right, I referred to the what Roman Catholics accepted from within the apocrypha. That's where any familiarity I had came, minimal. But the Greek Orthodox church also uses parts. However, the apocrypha is not part of the Hebrew Old Testament or the Greek New Testament. That's likely why most Protestants eventually rejected it.

 

[topsyturvy86]

Right, I referred to the what Roman Catholics accepted from within the apocrypha. That' where any familiarity I had came in with it. But the Greek Orthodox church also uses parts. However, the apocrypha is not part of the Hebrew Old Testament or the Greek New Testament. That's likely why most Protestants eventually rejected it.

Are you making an argument for use of the Apocrypha?

Nope. I'm under the impression u're looking to start an arguement with me about it for reason's im really struggling to understand. I read something I found interesting realating to the question and then all this. I probably should have said 'unknown source'.

 

[divya]

I highly doubt a form of Christianity would be heavily based on old testament books that aren't even a part of the bible anymore. BUT ... u never know ...

A few do use it, but not many...

Look at this blog...LOL!
http://christianblogs.christianet.com/1119350300.htm

 

[divya]

Nope. I'm under the impression u're looking to start an arguement with me about it for reason's im really struggling to understand. I read something I found interesting realating to the question and then all this. I probably should have said 'unknown source'.

No, not at all, which is why I removed that part of my post after reading your other reply. I was simply wondering why you used it, and if maybe you believed it.

 

[topsyturvy86]

A few do use it, but not many...

Look at this blog...LOL!
http://christianblogs.christianet.com/1119350300.htm

I don't see the bl0g, just rand0m pe0ple's c0mments.

No, not at all, which is why I removed that part of my post after reading your other reply. I was simply wondering why you used it, and if maybe you believed it.

I might have reservati0ns ab0ut the ap0crypha because it was taken 0ut, but I believe the what happens after death bit (and im n0t g0ing t0 defend myself ) The wh0le chapters bef0re and after are very inline with what revelati0ns says ab0ut the spirit/s0uls (cant remember which 0ne n0w) in waiting and 0ther parts. N0w, i'm n0t saying u have t0 believe it 0r anyb0dy f0r that matter, as I said, I f0und it interesting and th0ught id share as it was relevant t0 the questi0n.

 

[divya]

I don't see the bl0g, just rand0m pe0ple's c0mments.

Oh, I think that's what they are calling a blog.

I might have reservati0ns ab0ut the ap0crypha because it was taken 0ut, but I believe the what happens after death bit (and im n0t g0ing t0 defend myself ) The wh0le chapters bef0re and after are very inline with what revelati0ns says ab0ut the spirit/s0uls (cant remember which 0ne n0w) in waiting and 0ther parts. N0w, i'm n0t saying u have t0 believe it 0r anyb0dy f0r that matter, as I said, I f0und it interesting and th0ught id share as it was relevant t0 the questi0n.

Understand where you are coming from but was just wondering. It's interesting though and now I'd like to research if the immortal soul doctrine finds basis in that, outside of Greek philosophy etc.

 

[topsyturvy86]

Oh, I think that's what they are calling a blog.



Understand where you are coming from but was just wondering. It's interesting though and now I'd like to research if the immortal soul doctrine finds basis in that, outside of Greek philosophy etc.

C00l, let me kn0w what u c0me up with after ur research, w0uld be g00d t0 kn0w.

 

[Laela]

But where are your Scriptures to support this?

To support what? My question..? Or the Jesus in hell part? I'm not clear here...

Jesus resurrects us. The sound of His voice will bring the righteous up from the grave (hell) at the second coming.


1 Thess 4:16 -17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:and the dead in Christ shall rise first:Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord

I Cor 15:52 -54 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

I respect your choice believe what you do, but I will only believe what the Scriptures state.

I believe all those Scriptures you just quoted. The second passage is supporting my statement that the human body is gone, when we awaken from death (which really is a deep sleep), we awake with NEW BODIES. Where were our spirits?

Two fine examples in the Bible that references death as "sleep" are when Jesus himself spoke to the disciples about death, and they misunderstood him: John 11:10-13, and when Jesus told the crowd a ruler's dead daughter is alseep, but they laughed at him: Matthew 9:23-25

Hell is used 54 times in the Bible, generally to refer to the grave. So you are right...there is no confusion. However, it may require very in depth study.

Look at the word in almost every reference in the Bible and the majority of them point to an actual place:

Here are some fine examples:
Matthew 5:22 -- 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.

Matthew 5:29 - If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. (This is Jesus talking to his disciples here.)

Matthew 10:28 - Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. (Jesus admonishing his disciples)

2 Peter 2:4 -For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment;

ETA: The whole thread deals with this issue...but just to add..

Sheol translates to "the grave" in Hebrew.
Hades translates to "the grave" in the Greek.

Hades is a euphemism for hell..that's where Jesus went to preach to those in the "lower regions" so they can be saved. Some dispute this and say hell and Hades two are different things.

But the bottom line is when the Trumpet sounds, those who are dead will rise and get their final judgment, whether its heaven or hell:

Rev 20:14 says "Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death."

 

[divya]

I believe all those Scriptures you just quoted. The second passage is supporting my statement that the human body is gone, when we awaken from death (which really is a deep sleep), we awake with NEW BODIES. Where were our spirits?

Two fine examples in the Bible that references death as "sleep" are when Jesus himself spoke to the disciples about death, and they misunderstood him: John 11:10-13, and when Jesus told the crowd a ruler's dead daughter is alseep, but they laughed at him: Matthew 9:23-25

There are no inner spirits. Again, the translation of the word spirit in Hebrew is ruach. Ruach simply means breath. There is not idea of any free roaming spirit that exists as a separate being. You are right! Death is like sleeping. That's it all.

That would mean that you are immortal. Do you believe you are immortal right now?

 

[divya]

Look at the word in almost every reference in the Bible and the majority of them point to an actual place:

Here are some fine examples:
Matthew 5:22 -- 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.

Matthew 5:29 - If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. (This is Jesus talking to his disciples here.)

Matthew 10:28 - Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. (Jesus admonishing his disciples)

2 Peter 2:4 -For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment;

I agree with these verses...

Matthew 5:22 - But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Absolutely, and the Bible tells us when the wicked will suffer hellfire. Revelation 22:12And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.


The lake of fire is in the future, not now.

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“Tartarus” is used once, in 2 Peter 2:4, and means “a place of darkness or restraint.” “Tartarus” is where Satan and his demons reside now. It isn’t a place of punishment or flames. http://www.thetruthabouthell.net/

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Regarding the soul idea as well...

Matthew 10:28 - "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

In this verse we find these instructions: "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell" (Matthew 10:28). This verse is not understood by many because the word "soul" has lost its true meaning. Once that is restored, Jesus' statement becomes clear.

The English word "soul" is a translation of the Greek word psuche and from the Hebrew word nephesh. Both words mean "a living, breathing creature," referring to man or animal. "Soul" never means something immortal inside of man or animal. The words "immortal soul" appear nowhere in the Bible. In fact, the Bible shows that a soul can perish. Ezekiel twice writes, "The soul who sins shall die" (Ezekiel 18:4, 20). The word "soul" pertains to the life of any physical being or creature. Soul simply means "life."

The word translated "life" in Leviticus 17:11 comes from the same Hebrew word translated "soul." This verse can just as accurately be rendered, "For the soul of the flesh is in the blood." Jesus gave His "life" (translated from the same Greek word rendered "soul") as a ransom for us (Mark 10:45) by pouring out His soul—His life's blood—in payment for sin (Isaiah 53:12). Again, "soul" refers to the physical life of human beings or animals.

God can destroy the physical body and the soul (life). Matthew 10:28 tells us that no man can do both. Jesus says the same thing at another time: "And I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell [the Lake of Fire, the second or final death]; yes, I say to you, fear Him!" (Luke 12:4-5). Man can destroy a physical life, but that results only in the first death (Hebrews 9:27).

God, on the other hand, has the power both to impart life and to take it away, either temporarily or forever. He can resurrect those whom men have killed. He can also kill in a way no man can. If God judges a person to be unworthy of His Kingdom, that person will be thrown into the Lake of Fire to be utterly consumed. This is the second death, from which there can be no resurrection (Revelation 20:14-15; Malachi 4:1). The body and life (soul) of the unrepentant will be destroyed forever.

So, then, what Jesus says is that we should not shape our lives by any threat men may pose against us. We should live our lives in total obedience to God and His laws (see Acts 5:29). If men kill us, it will be only temporary. If God kills us, it will be forever.

http://cgg.org/index.cfm/fuseaction...Jesus-Refer-an-Immortal-Soul-Matthew-1028.htm

 

[divya]

Hades is a euphemism for hell..that's where Jesus went to preach to those in the "lower regions" so they can be saved. Some dispute this and say hell and Hades two are different things.

But the bottom line is when the Trumpet sounds, those who are dead will rise and get their final judgment, whether its heaven or hell:

Rev 20:14 says "Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death."

Have you ever looked up the Greek translation of Hades? The New Testament was predominantly written in Greek.

Rev. 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

The translation for hell here is the grave. So when all is said and done death and grave will be eternally destroyed. There will be no more of either. That's why in Rev. 21, the Scriptures go on to say...

Rev. 21:1-4 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

 

[divya]

The History of the Immortal-Soul Teaching

Several times we have mentioned the words immortal soul, but the phrase is found nowhere in the Bible. Where did the idea of an immortal soul originate?

The concept of the soul’s supposed immortality was first taught in ancient Egypt and Babylon. "The belief that the soul continues in existence after the dissolution of the body is . . . speculation . . . nowhere expressly taught in Holy Scripture . . . The belief in the immortality of the soul came to the Jews from contact with Greek thought and chiefly through the philosophy of Plato, its principal exponent, who was led to it through Orphic and Eleusinian mysteries in which Babylonian and Egyptian views were strangely blended" (Jewish Encyclopedia, Funk and Wagnalls, New York, 1941, Vol. VI, "Immortality of the Soul," pp. 564, 566).

Plato, the Greek philosopher who lived 428-348 B.C., as a student of Socrates taught that the body and an "immortal soul" separate at death. The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia comments on ancient Israel’s view of the soul: ". . . We are influenced always more or less by the Greek, Platonic idea, that the body dies, yet the soul is immortal. Such an idea is utterly contrary to the Israelite consciousness, and it is nowhere found in the [Old Testament]" (Eerdmans, Grand Rapids, 1956, Vol. II, "Death," p. 812).

Early Christianity was influenced by Greek philosophies even as the gospel of Christ was preached to the Greek and Roman world. By A.D. 200 the doctrine of the immortality of the soul became a controversy in the established church.

The Evangelical Dictionary of Theology notes how Origen, an early and influential church theologian, was influenced by Greek thinkers: "Speculation about the soul in the subapostolic church was heavily influenced by Greek philosophy. This is seen in Origen’s acceptance of Plato’s doctrine of the preexistence of the soul as pure mind (nous) originally, which, by reason of its fall from God, cooled down to soul (psyche) when it lost its participation in the divine fire by looking earthward" (Baker Book House, Grand Rapids, 1992, p. 1037, "Soul").

Secular history reveals that the concept of the immortality of the soul is an ancient belief embraced by many pagan religions. But it is not a biblical, Hebrew or apostolic teaching.

http://www.ucg.org/booklets/AD/soulteaching.asp
http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d060101.htm

 

[Laela]

There are no inner spirits. Again, the translation of the word spirit in Hebrew is ruach. Ruach simply means breath. There is not idea of any free roaming spirit that exists as a separate being. You are right! Death is like sleeping. That's it all.

That would mean that you are immortal. Do you believe you are immortal right now?

I am immortal now, because I am in my physical body. I'd said that earlier.

That breath you're referring to is LIFE.. from God himself.

 

[divya]

I am immortal now, because I am in my physical body. I'd said that earlier.

That breath you're referring to is LIFE.. from God himself.

1 Timothy 6:14 -16 - That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

God bless.

 

[Laela]

Have you ever looked up the Greek translation of Hades? The New Testament was predominantly written in Greek.

Rev. 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

The translation for hell here is the grave. So when all is said and done death and grave will be eternally destroyed. There will be no more of either. That's why in Rev. 21, the Scriptures go on to say...

You'd stated earlier that the Lake of Fire will burn out after it consumes everyone and everything, now here, you agree that it's eternal (which is what the Scripture says). Which do you agree it is? A temporary state or an eternal one?

 

[divya]

You'd stated earlier that the Lake of Fire will burn out after it consumes everyone and everything, now here, you agree that it's eternal (which is what the Scripture says). Which do you agree it is? A temporary state or an eternal one?

What exactly are you referring to? Did you read the part of my post that you just quoted which states that hell there translates to the grave?

Also, the Scriptures which I posted stated that the lake of fire will burn out.

I can explain further but I don't see exactly what you are saying...