OH MY! I did not know this bit of History about Relaxers...

[Southernbella.]

I asked it before and I'll ask it again: would we continue to use those products if we found out that the manufacturer doesn't use said product?

Women use pads/tampons and birth control, which were all created and manufactured by men. Women also get abortions, even though men came up with that, too.

Is it the white manufacturers' fault that black people haven't gotten in on the game? I do think we definitely need some black researchers and scientists to get in on this and come up with something that will put money back in our community.

 

[Poohbear]

I asked it before and I'll ask it again: would we continue to use those products if we found out that the manufacturer doesn't use the said product?

be careful when you say this... this question can apply to ANYTHING we use... like lauren50 said.

For example, I used to work for Colgate. I didn't solely use Colgate products. I used other toothpastes and body washes and such... that doesn't mean my friends and family shouldn't use Colgate products just because I did not use Colgate products...

 

[PaperClip]

Women use pads/tampons and birth control, which were all created and manufactured by men. Women also get abortions, even though men came up with that, too.

Is it the white manufacturers' fault that black people haven't gotten in on the game? I do think we definitely need some black researchers and scientists to get in on this and come up with something that will put money back in our community.

Ok EWWWW on the thought that men are responsible for the invention and manufacture of tampons! Maybe that's why one of OB's tag lines says something like is that it was designed by women for women.... And now that I think about it, it seems weird that men would manufacture a product such as a feminine hygiene product.... how could they know what a comfortable tampon/pad is supposed to feel like?

And there's NO blame for the White or Korean entrepreneurs who saw a niche market and took it over.... That's the work of capitalism and free enterprise.... I don't appreciate that such markets are on lock by other folks and Black folk are only consumers, but hey, it is what it is and I hope and pray this changes.

But my fundamental point/question remains: regardless of race or ethnicity or gender (when applicable), should there be a red flag if a manufacturer doesn't use his or her own products? Esp. those that require internal consumption: food, medicine, hair/beauty products, etc.?

 

[saqqara]

and its not folklore or an urban legend. there are books that relate the hundreds of methods whites used to torture women, children and the elderly during slavery. we all know about pouring salt into open wounds and cutting off limbs but a very distrubing one that a lot of us haven't heard is publicly slitting the abdomen of a pregnant black woman and killing her unborn baby. this was done to warn the other enslaved blacks of what would happen if they tried to escape. we also arent aware of the high suicide rate among enslaved black women. no longer able to endure the rape, multilation and general brutality and horror of slavery, many black women drowned themselves. things had gotten so out of hand that whites enacted laws threatening to punish (torture) relatives, including the children, of any black women who who tried to kill herself. check out Spirit Dive: An African American's Journey to Uncover a Sunken Slave Ship's Past by Michael Cottman. he went through all of the records still held in british libraries that detail the torture methods used on and off the slave ships.

Whooaaaaaaa.

 

[PaperClip]

be careful when you say this... this question can apply to ANYTHING we use... like lauren50 said.

For example, I used to work for Colgate. I didn't solely use Colgate products. I used other toothpastes and body washes and such... that doesn't mean my friends and family shouldn't use Colgate products just because I did not use Colgate products...

Well... you said you worked there vs. owned the company. When income is involved, that's a different story.... But it would be helpful to know why you chose not to use products from the company where you worked.... Was it simply a preference for another product? Was there something wrong with the Colgate product? I think when one works (gets paid from) a company, they are "ambassadors", if you will....

I don't know.... still exploring my thoughts on this....

 

[Southernbella.]

But my fundamental point/question remains: regardless of race or ethnicity or gender (when applicable), should there be a red flag if a manufacturer doesn't use his or her own products? Esp. those that require internal consumption: food, medicine, hair/beauty products, etc.?

That's a good question, and one I can't answer. I guess you would have to know why said person doesn't use the products. Is it because he thinks they're crap? Because he has a moral objection to using them? Or maybe because he has no use for them himself but thinks they can help others?

I watch lots of A&E, and I've seen stories on tobacco families. These people became billionaires peddling cancer sticks to others, but none of the family used the product.

 

[Denim And Leather]

Wow! so much info out there, thanks everyone.
On a personal note I never really liked history especially anything that speaks about horrifying times b4 I existed, I think if I read too much and too far into history during slavery and the hollicost(?sp) I would have probably ended up being a racist, I think I would have learned to hate pple about a past that was never a part of my lifetime. I never even knew there was a history behind a hair product except how it was discovered by a black man. I wonder how many pple would relax or would still be relaxing if relaxers his-story was different?

I feel as you do sometimes regarding history, BWE. Sometimes, I cannot bring myself to read or watch documentaries on African/black slavery, or other injustices for that matter, because I always end up wishing that I can jump through my t.v. screen and kick some evil butt.

But history is extremely important, because we need to know how things were, so (as the saying goes) we don't end up repeating them. And we can also learn of the good people who've come through and risked their lives to help those being oppressed during these horrible events (like African/black slaverly, the Holocaust, etc.)

OT- Lauren, your little girl is soooo adorable! What a cutie pie.

 

[myco]

I feel as you do sometimes regarding history, BWE. Sometimes, I cannot bring myself to read or watch documentaries on African/black slavery, or other injustices for that matter, because I always end up wishing that I can jump through my t.v. screen and kick some evil butt.

But history is extremely important, because we need to know how things were, so (as the saying goes) we don't end up repeating them. And we can also learn of the good people who've come through and risked their lives to help those being oppressed during these horrible events (like African/black slaverly, the Holocaust, etc.)

OT- Lauren, your little girl is soooo adorable! What a cutie pie.

Not to take this thread any farther OT, but I think your post is a very good illustration of why black historical movies don't do as well in theaters, IMO. That's a lot of pain and frustration to process without wanting to lash out at someone. In lieu of being taken through an emotional ringer, most people just stay away and don't really go any deeper than the surface layers of Black history. Even though it's a fictionalized character on screen, we know that that could have been and most likely did happen to a parent, aunt, uncle, grandparents, great-grandparents, etc.

This has been a really interesting thread.

 

[Poohbear]

Well... you said you worked there vs. owned the company. When income is involved, that's a different story.... But it would be helpful to know why you chose not to use products from the company where you worked.... Was it simply a preference for another product? Was there something wrong with the Colgate product? I think when one works (gets paid from) a company, they are "ambassadors", if you will....

I don't know.... still exploring my thoughts on this....

Yeah, that's true that I just worked there instead of owning the company....

In my case, I used Colgate products and other products (Colgate gave me free packets of toothpaste each week! )

But I do see the point you're trying to make from the question you asked... but people don't always make things, sell them to others, and then in turn, use the things themselves. Most things that are sold in stores are to make money for the big wigs who own the company. That's the purpose of most companies and corporations...to make money, to generate revenue/sales... regardless of how effective the product actually is to the consumer.

 

[Mahalialee4]

Yes. This is a capitalist country. Unfortunately this term derives in part from the word "capitalize" and it has definitely capitalized from the forced free labour of African slaves to build this country, empowering and financing white people to become rich capitalists, and tycoons...true robber barons...and set up companies to do all the things that they tied the black man's hands against. They saw an opportunity....it was not that they honestly competed with blacks and other nationalities ...they totally monopolized OPPORTUNITIES! Why have others been able to become successful while the Black Man just limps along? ....because they were never held here as SLAVES WITH LAWS ENACTED TO STOP AND HINDER THEM GENERATIONALLY FROM OBTAINING ANY of what whites and other nationalities take for granted and all the talk about 'hard work and Protestant work ethic is what made them self made millionaires is a fundamental lie! It is like a brutal pimp and his pimp underlings declaring that prostitutes could have better lives if they just weren't so lazy and would work harder or weren't so stupid. That was the EQUAL OPPORTUNITY TO SUCCEED that was available. Until we recognize that the psychological and spiritual crippling and mass mind control that has been exerted over the minds, wills and spirit of our people occurred and that it had generational after effects like the Holocaust, Chernoble, etc. we will have those that say...well the white man was smarter, stronger and harder working. No. They were greedy, cunning and sold their souls and had NO CONSCIENCE in getting and keeping what should have been the birthright of all men. Understand that the Jews got out of the concentration camps and Hitler was defeated and Jews were then empowered and enabled financially because they were wealthy before Hitler came along...they were well educated before Hitler came along and they left
Egypt laden with wealth. It's in the Bible. In America, Every one did not start with the same advantages, tools, wealth or weapons. I am so happy to see so many well educated black men and women and the emerging wealth of the black people occurring. When the Jews came out of Egypt, they had WEALTH. It is only NOW that Black people are coming out of slavery, mentally, spiritually and psychologically. "None but we can free our minds". That is why you see the "marvelous ways that wealth is coming into their hands!!!!" that they are investing and becoming empowered. Many believed...I was never a slave...but were you really FREE???? bonjour

 

[Denim And Leather]

Not to take this thread any farther OT, but I think your post is a very good illustration of why black historical movies don't do as well in theaters, IMO. That's a lot of pain and frustration to process without wanting to lash out at someone. In lieu of being taken through an emotional ringer, most people just stay away and don't really go any deeper than the surface layers of Black history. Even though it's a fictionalized character on screen, we know that that could have been and most likely did happen to a parent, aunt, uncle, grandparents, great-grandparents, etc.

This has been a really interesting thread.

You know, when I watch those type of shows, I can't help but think
"what if that was my nephew? Or my dad?" This could be a whole other thread, but that was a good observation!

 

[Sarafina]

Yes. This is a capitalist country. Unfortunately this term derives in part from the word "capitalize" and it has definitely capitalized from the forced free labour of African slaves to build this country, empowering and financing white people to become rich capitalists, and tycoons...true robber barons...and set up companies to do all the things that they tied the black man's hands against. They saw an opportunity....it was not that they honestly competed with blacks and other nationalities ...they totally monopolized OPPORTUNITIES! Why have others been able to become successful while the Black Man just limps along? ....because they were never held here as SLAVES WITH LAWS ENACTED TO STOP AND HINDER THEM GENERATIONALLY FROM OBTAINING ANY of what whites and other nationalities take for granted and all the talk about 'hard work and Protestant work ethic is what made them self made millionaires is a fundamental lie! It is like a brutal pimp and his pimp underlings declaring that prostitutes could have better lives if they just weren't so lazy and would work harder or weren't so stupid. That was the EQUAL OPPORTUNITY TO SUCCEED that was available. Until we recognize that the psychological and spiritual crippling and mass mind control that has been exerted over the minds, wills and spirit of our people occurred and that it had generational after effects like the Holocaust, Chernoble, etc. we will have those that say...well the white man was smarter, stronger and harder working. No. They were greedy, cunning and sold their souls and had NO CONSCIENCE in getting and keeping what should have been the birthright of all men. Understand that the Jews got out of the concentration camps and Hitler was defeated and Jews were then empowered and enabled financially because they were wealthy before Hitler came along...they were well educated before Hitler came along and they left
Egypt laden with wealth. It's in the Bible. In America, Every one did not start with the same advantages, tools, wealth or weapons. I am so happy to see so many well educated black men and women and the emerging wealth of the black people occurring. When the Jews came out of Egypt, they had WEALTH. It is only NOW that Black people are coming out of slavery, mentally, spiritually and psychologically. "None but we can free our minds". That is why you see the "marvelous ways that wealth is coming into their hands!!!!" that they are investing and becoming empowered. Many believed...I was never a slave...but were you really FREE???? bonjour

Great Post

 

[so1913]

I would love to participate with you all right now, but I just got home from my CPA review class, and can't really focus, lol. I just wanted to say I'm sooo enjoying reading these posts. I'm glad we got over the bumps, clarified a few things, and now we have some really good discussion going on here. There is soooo much to our history in this country, I don't think we should be afraid to address it or avoid the conversations, yes, even when it comes to hair!

Ok, off to bed, I can't hang much longer!

 

[MissYocairis]

So they just stole his invention. That means WE invented it and it was not something the "man" thought up to punish us or to make us forget our roots....etc, etc....

Yeah. That's why I kinda avoided the thread for a while. I'm pretty sure a black man discovered that lye straightens hair and developed the very first relaxer. Never heard the slave owner story. I cannot imagine how punishing slaves by relaxing their hair would help matters and it certainly wouldn't serve the Willie Lynch strategy very well.

 

[mahogany66]

ooooh lawd, here we go again.

i know better than to fall for this one, this time around .

x____________________________

 

[1QTPie]

OK, I ran across this earlier...
http://www.depilatory.com/ages.html

Apparently, North American women in the 1700's used lye for hair removal purposes. So, if the hair-dipping thing is true, it's kind of ironic. I'm just guessing here, but let's say the slave owners learned about lye and hair removal from their wives, who were using it. Maybe the punishment was making the slaves' hair fall out.

Then, after awhile, black folks being creative and resourceful, the slaves started using the lye (which they already used to make their soap, using ashes from the fireplace) on their hair.

I wonder if that pissed off massa. Here he is trying to invent some new form of torture and punishment, and we turn it around and use it as a styling aid.

I guess there are two ways to look at the issue. If one wanted to use it as propaganda, I can see that. One could also look at it as another example of black people taking scraps and making their own meal out of it.

I'm not going to put down your opinion, but I do disagree with it, that sounds like the N-Word argument and that N-Word argument to me is utterly ridiculous. i.e. Making it sound as if it's something 'good' because we have been conditioned to think of ourselves as nigras, is completely naive. There's nothing GOOD about us still eating pigfeet either. Yeh, our ancestors made a meal out of pig intestines. It wasn't to make a point with marster, it was to survive. And as we know chitlins and hogmaw kill us everyday. Relaxers aren't a styling aid IMO (especially if you're black) it's a lye. (I have been wanting to say that for years.) <---- that part was joke people calm down before your roots start to turn.

But for real Lauren, I don't agree with what you are saying. It sounds like BS to me. I felt the same way when colored contacts and eagle talon fingernails were all the rage, it's just something else to dusguise who you really are. Beautifully and gloriously made just as you are.

 

[hotshot]

slavery was hundreds of years long in many colonies of the Western hemisphere. It could be possible this form of torture was popular during certain epochs of slavery and the relaxer was developed later, separately, or even at the same time in a completely different place.

 

[Poohbear]

I'm not going to put down your opinion, but I do disagree with it, that sounds like the N-Word argument and that N-Word argument to me is utterly ridiculous. i.e. Making it sound as if it's something 'good' because we have been conditioned to think of ourselves as nigras, is completely naive. There's nothing GOOD about us still eating pigfeet either. Yeh, our ancestors made a meal out of pig intestines. It wasn't to make a point with marster, it was to survive. And as we know chitlins and hogmaw kill us everyday. Relaxers aren't a styling aid IMO (especially if you're black) it's a lye. (I have been wanting to say that for years.) <---- that part was joke people calm down before your roots start to turn.

But for real Lauren, I don't agree with what you are saying. It sounds like BS to me. I felt the same way when colored contacts and eagle talon fingernails were all the rage, it's just something else to disguise who you really are. Beautifully and gloriously made just as you are.

I like this reply. Thanks for sharing your perspective.
The N-word isn't a part of our culture...its what the white man used to call us back in the day...what can be so trendy about the N-word?
But people are going to do what they're going to do.

 

[KhandiB]

Yeah. That's why I kinda avoided the thread for a while. I'm pretty sure a black man discovered that lye straightens hair and developed the very first relaxer. Never heard the slave owner story. I cannot imagine how punishing slaves by relaxing their hair would help matters and it certainly wouldn't serve the Willie Lynch strategy very well.

So if the relaxer was developed by a black man, then its not a tool of the white devil people to help us in our never ending journey to be less black

 

[Southernbella.]

I'm not going to put down your opinion, but I do disagree with it, that sounds like the N-Word argument and that N-Word argument to me is utterly ridiculous. i.e. Making it sound as if it's something 'good' because we have been conditioned to think of ourselves as nigras, is completely naive. There's nothing GOOD about us still eating pigfeet either. Yeh, our ancestors made a meal out of pig intestines. It wasn't to make a point with marster, it was to survive. And as we know chitlins and hogmaw kill us everyday. Relaxers aren't a styling aid IMO (especially if you're black) it's a lye. (I have been wanting to say that for years.) <---- that part was joke people calm down before your roots start to turn.

But for real Lauren, I don't agree with what you are saying. It sounds like BS to me. I felt the same way when colored contacts and eagle talon fingernails were all the rage, it's just something else to dusguise who you really are. Beautifully and gloriously made just as you are.

That's fine, that's your opinion. Like I said, there are two ways to look at it. And I think most of us here with healthy relaxed hair would disagree with your assessment that relaxers aren't a styling aid. If they didn't work for you, fine, but they work for many of us.

Also, I don't believe the lye as referenced in the OP is the same as a relaxer today, nor do I believe slave masters were trying to straighten black people's hair. I believe, if it's true, that they were punishing us.

I believe that some time later, the slaves discovered that they could use lye on their hair (they already used it for soap and to clean their clothes. Is that like the N-word too?), and that's what they did. Eventually, someone white bought the idea or stole it or whatever, and here we are.

 

[Southernbella.]

So if the relaxer was developed by a black man, then its not a tool of the white devil people to help us in our never ending journey to be less black

Yes, we have to think logically about this. Why would white people, who have believed since the beginning that we are inferior to them, invent anything that would help us resemble them in any way? It makes absolutely no sense.

The issue is that white people took the idea and made million of dollars off of it. Well, that's the issue with lots of things, not just relaxers. Two black men started McDonald's, but a white man is a billionaire because of it.

 

[MizaniMami]

Yes, we have to think logically about this. Why would white people, who have believed since the beginning that we are inferior to them, invent anything that would help us resemble them in any way? It makes absolutely no sense.

The issue is that white people took the idea and made million of dollars off of it. Well, that's the issue with lots of things, not just relaxers. Two black men started McDonald's, but a white man is a billionaire because of it.

Exxxaaactly!

 

[1QTPie]

So if the relaxer was developed by a black man, then its not a tool of the white devil people to help us in our never ending journey to be less black

I never thought the relaxer was a tool used by the "white man" to do anything to us. I thought it was a tool us by us to denegrate our blackness. Is that the case now? For some. Not all. As long as we still have people saying things like, "If my hair was curly like yours..." "I wouldn't NEED a relaxer if..." "Nappy hair doesn't suit me..." I will still believe that there are th few that are in denial about why they relax. It's not their fault though, most kinky, coily and curly haired people were taught that they were ugly with the hair that they were born with. The same reason why half of Hollyweird go blonde. They are still under than myth that blonde is better, straight is better, more pure. It's sad.

 

[Poohbear]

Yes, we have to think logically about this. Why would white people, who have believed since the beginning that we are inferior to them, invent anything that would help us resemble them in any way? It makes absolutely no sense.

Answer: to make money.

But I see the point you are making with your question. Of course whites wouldn't make something to help us resemble them...they'll make something that they think will make them money.

If you take a look back into history, it kinda went like this...whites saw blacks as inferior, then in turn, blacks saw themselves as inferior, and if there were some mulattos (mixed slaves) they could pass off as or be seen as a white person or close to it. The closer you are to looking white, the more privilege. So the blacks back then probably desired to look white and would probably have done anything in their little power to lighten their skin, straighten their hair, or change their eye color. So with the whites in today's time probably having an idea about that, they would make something that blacks desire so they could make money...

But if you do not relax your hair to resemble a white person, don't worry about it. That's just the history behind the development...

And plus, we can see it this way... Both whites AND blacks manufactured and sold relaxers for the purpose of just permanently straightening the hair texture (of whites and blacks alike) with no regards to the past social complex tied to it.

 

[KhandiB]

I have a suggestion for everyone, the last time I mentioned this to someone they looked at me like I was nuts...

when you watch TV, if there is a sista in a commercial she very Rarely has a relaxer... unless its a pantene commercial ... but Im tellin you if you pay attention you will notice this... they rarely cast women with straight hair...

Just an observation I had

 

[Poohbear]

I have a suggestion for everyone, the last time I mentioned this to someone they looked at me like I was nuts...

when you watch TV, if there is a sista in a commercial she very Rarely has a relaxer... unless its a pantene commercial ... but Im tellin you if you pay attention you will notice this... they rarely cast women with straight hair...

Just an observation I had

Me too! I notice this as well!

 

[so1913]

I never thought the relaxer was a tool used by the "white man" to do anything to us. I thought it was a tool us by us to denegrate our blackness. Is that the case now? For some. Not all. As long as we still have people saying things like, "If my hair was curly like yours..." "I wouldn't NEED a relaxer if..." "Nappy hair doesn't suit me..." I will still believe that there are th few that are in denial about why they relax. It's not their fault though, most kinky, coily and curly haired people were taught that they were ugly with the hair that they were born with. The same reason why half of Hollyweird go blonde. They are still under than myth that blonde is better, straight is better, more pure. It's sad.

EXACTLY! I don't believe everyone is victim to this way of thinking, but I know people personally with this mindset, so I know it's still a strong idea even today. The thing is these people don't REALIZE the implications of what they are saying. For example, just this past Saturday, one of my HS friends who was natural for a while but went back to relaxing that I see once in a while when she's home for the summer says to me "Wow...see if my hair was like yours, I'd still be natural...but I have that slave hair" meanwhile her relaxed hair is now broken off, extremely short and uneven, over colored, completely damaged, but to her, that was better than her rockin' her natural hair. I mentioned another comment another friend made a few weeks ago where she refered to her natural hair as "N***** hair" and she couldn't go natural because of that. It is sad, it's just the mindset that some of us will fall victim to and continue to pass on...but what can you do but work on yourself.

 

[so1913]

Answer: to make money.

Exactly, however it was more of "white" people taking OVER the industry that was established by blacks. White people saw opportunity when they saw the extent that blacks were going to in order to "conform" their look to what was considered beautiful. Many black owned companies that produced these products initially, and they were taken over, sabotaged, run out of business, ideas stolen from by white people. Even if you read the early advertisements for some the products "back in the day" by these white owned companies, they were worded in a way that always that made it a point to emphasize the idea of changing your nappy, ugly, unattractive hair into flowing, straight, beautiful locks. This was the sales pitch. White people took advantage of our weakness and our negative self image (also the same negative image they had of us). When you really start reading up on this stuff.....I mean it all really is amazing and very interesting.

 

[Southernbella.]

Answer: to make money.

But I see the point you are making with your question. Of course whites wouldn't make something to help us resemble them...they'll make something that they think will make them money.

If you take a look back into history, it kinda went like this...whites saw blacks as inferior, then in turn, blacks saw themselves as inferior, and if there were some mulattos (mixed slaves) they could pass off as or be seen as a white person or close to it. The closer you are to looking white, the more privilege. So the blacks back then probably desired to look white and would probably have done anything in their little power to lighten their skin, straighten their hair, or change their eye color. So with the whites in today's time probably having an idea about that, they would make something that blacks desire so they could make money...

But if you do not relax your hair to resemble a white person, don't worry about it. That's just the history behind the development...

And plus, we can see it this way... Both whites AND blacks manufactured and sold relaxers for the purpose of just permanently straightening the hair texture (of whites and blacks alike) with no regards to the past social complex tied to it.

I agree.

I do wonder sometimes, though, why there's not a bigger backlash against fake hair. I mean, you are gluing someone else's hair (and that someone is usually Asian, or in some cases, white) to your own scalp in order to capture their standard of beauty. I don't believe there are many black manufacturers of weave, either. I'm not knocking weave, but it seems like chemicals get the brunt of the disdain. I would think they would be almost equal in terms of the "sell out" factor.

Or is that because some naturals use weaves sometimes?

 

[missann]

I agree.

I do wonder sometimes, though, why there's not a bigger backlash against fake hair. I mean, you are gluing someone else's hair (and that someone is usually Asian, or in some cases, white) to your own scalp in order to capture their standard of beauty. I don't believe there are many black manufacturers of weave, either. I'm not knocking weave, but it seems like chemicals get the brunt of the disdain. I would think they would be almost equal in terms of the "sell out" factor.

Or is that because some naturals use weaves sometimes?

No, not at all. Many who wear relaxers want long, straight hair. However, the relaxer oftentimes breaks off the hair, so they use weave to acquire the length. This is still an issue of texture, more specifically nappy hair.