Knowledge of Christ...but Lack of Belief and Relationship

[Poohbear]

Pooh,

Girl, I just love you... I've seen you run circles around the same questions..lol... But if you gotta hear it again, I'll say it again.. YOU ARE BEING CALLED and are hearing God call you. Only, you keep running from Him. You must have an important mission for the Kingdom of God... I'mma start calling you Jonah-bear

Why is that?

What do you fear most...? You know, there are really only two emotions: Fear (out of God's Will) and Love (in God's Will).

Forget "other Christians" I don't want to hear about them or sin or who done did what....I really don't care. And I won't post Scripture because you're familiar with the Word.

Thanks for the love, but what am I suppose to do if I feel like God is leading me in a different direction than my father's vision?

I really don't care about what "other Christians" are doing either... I am particularly worried about what I do. I know that I sin and everyone else sins, are we all on our way to Hell? I just don't get the concept of Christians sinning every now and then and still being right with God just because they are believers. That is where my main hangup is.

I want to hear what YOU really believe is keeping YOU separated from God.

Confusion about what to believe when it comes to sin and being a Christian. I just don't see how I can call myself a Christian when I still sin. Even after asking for forgiveness of the sin.

And then how come EVERYTHING is a sin? Why is everything we do and not do a sin? Knowing or feeling like "everything I do and do not do is a sin" is a miserable way to live.

I read your "wish list" up-thread.....but guess what? We submit to God's Will, He doesn't submit to ours. It is when we submit to Him, He gives us the desires of our hearts, according to His will.

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over, yet expecting the same results while complaining about it. I've seen some successfully answer your questions over and over for the past year, and you're still not satisfied. Why? Because only GOD can quench that thirst...and you know that. Stop saying you'll open your Bible to read it and actually do it. Don't say you'll pray and don't. Don't say you'll do anything to get close to Him and don't. You're only fooling yourself, no one else.

Quite frankly, you need to be zapped.... because He is a Spirit.

I agree.

But if I say I'm going to do something, I do do it. Don't accuse me of lying. Whenever I have said I'll open the Bible to read it and pray, I do! I'm not fooling myself, nor anyone else here.

It's just that after doing all the reading the Bible and praying, I am still left with these questions and confusion.... and it's mainly about sin and being a Christian. I can't get around the fact that being right with God means sinning no more!

I look forward to the day you testify of being overwhelmed by the Holy Spirit that all you can do is respond any way you know how. The intense feeling of relief, as if you'd ran a marathon and jumped into a pool of cool, clear water. The ginormous exhaling you'll do when this happens as if you'd just worked out. The very essence of God is to be breathed IN and breathed OUT. He is our very life source.....through the Holy Spirit.

I'm not saying you can't have the Holy Spirit with you w/out the physical manifestations I've just described. You can feel His presence anytime...but there comes a time when we must open ourselves to Him to let Him have His way.... when He burns our flesh and purifies us! We can't quantify this, we can't qualify it...there's no way to apply logic. Human intelligence is tossed out the window....No religious ramblings. No reasoning need apply. God's way is NOT our way. This isn't some self-induced trance. It's GOD.


I know you know God won't force Himself on you. Which is why YOU must submit to HIM to alleviate this state of confusion you're spinning in. He's waiting...

I want to encourage you to Trust Him. The power to do so is only within you. When you start trusting God, you will NEVER be the same again.... EVER

You will go from being CALLED to being CHOSEN.

Angels in Heaven will celebrate on that day.

I Love you dearly.

Explain "submit to God".

Explain "start trusting in God".

So many people throw those sayings around but cannot explain it.

 

[Poohbear]

Nymphe,

Thank you for your post. It was insightful as well.

What are some old books on the history of the early believers prior to 400 AD.?

To answer your question, I already feel like my heart is being torn to pieces in different directions and I don't know how to feel in my mind, heart, and soul.

As you have discovered, knowledge is nothing without His Guide inside of us. There are time when we have to completely shut out the world and be alone and humble before Him, no matter how much our flesh rails against it.

My family stopped going to church when I was eleven and there was none of that happening. I have praised and cheered Our Father on my own whenever, wherever as an adult. If anyone has to make a statement like that during service, the terms “false fire” and “peer pressure” spring to mind.

He has been reaching out to me for years and made the choice to inspire me to seek Him out from a dead sleep.

He had made Himself known in my life, His Holy Spirit guiding me along the way.

I check daily to make certain His Spirit still dwells within me.

Historical research and seeing that the sacrificial/temple system did not work to keep the flesh purified without that connection to Our Father.

God was the one who started the sacrifice; He had to be the one to end it. Jesus is the fulfillment of so much prophecy and the generator of so much hatred and misrepresentation. The world is dead already, an illusion that can be altered in the blink of an eye. Our Father Creator is eternal.

Because I am not ashamed of the Gospel and to talk about Him to whomever.

His actions in helping me draw closer to His Father. I have always been one to be contrary to the masses, so His life and frustration with the world appealed so much to me.

I want to follow Jesus because of what He has done for me and my family, so I strive to do as He did and what He said: deny yourself (self-denial, break away from the flesh), pick up your cross (deal with the crap the world throws at you because of belief), and follow Him (His lead, His example, the “Great Commission”). Jesus did not simply sit around studying the Tanakh (the entire OT), but put it into action.

Because He uses it to teach or inform me of something. Remember, God is the Word of God, Jesus is the Word in flesh, not the Bible.

You have got to quit worrying about everyone else. Remember the parable of the wheat and tares? We may never know who all the tares are. It takes time to “kill” the desire of the world/flesh, which is why we have grace. Remember, He can read our true intent in our hearts, no matter how much we lie to ourselves.

Also, you need to ask Him in what areas you need to improve. What He shows you may be more than what you think.

Very few trust the power of the Gospels in their simple, yet spiritually complex, form. Few still believe the Holy Spirit to lead them to all truth as Jesus promised. You see how people can take the Bible and twist passages all around.

No. We are to give in cheerfulness and to whoever has the need. We are blessed by the Father, so everything we have is His anyway.

No, or the first church failed because they met in homes, catacombs, fields, etc. for centuries. I strongly suggest you grab some old books on the history of the early believers prior to 400 AD. You will be shocked at what you discover.

Are you willing to get your heart torn to piece as you draw closer to Him? People do not understand that this walk could and will cost you everything.

 

[OhmyKimB]

I am like you, I grew up in church all my life, but now my relationship, and trust for God is coming to it's strength

Am I lacking the Spirit if I'm mainly quiet during service?
I don't shout or clap...mostly I just smile or I am quiet, I tend to keep things in my heart and don't naturally just cry out. That's just me personally however

But anyway, here are the main questions I have been wondering....

How do you know who you are in Christ?

By trying to be everyone else. Sounds kinda dumb but I went to Christian schools all my life, I mean God was saturated in my life (I'm not complaining) but I always thought that being in the world would be more fun (the devil lies; plus my mom wasn't fun at the time lol) So the first time I started college, I did whatever I wanted and ended up unhappy. I mean I was lukewarm for a while and only in the last three years has my personal relationship with God taught me who I am and who HE created ME to be. This year especially. It's not something that can be taught, it's something you do by just talking to God and don't over think it, after a while the more you talk you can tell the difference between your thoughts and what it is that He is saying to you.

How do you know you believe in Christ?

Because nothing else makes sense. I don't mean it in the way that would be taken. But really I should be dead and a few other things. However I'm not. And one day I asked God to experience His grace and he showed me every step of my life that he has protected me.

How do you know that you have a relationship with God?

When I can get upset about something, and go to Him and recieve an answer. When I want something but in turn He gives me what I need first, so when I get what it was that I wanted, I don't even care. I'm already satisfied. I know because I don't sensor myself to God, I literally say what I feel and this morning is a prime example. I told God He made no sense, and I knew that while He had a reason, I myself was more then a little bit unhappy with why He did it. As I was driving he spoke to my heart about it. Doesn't mean I'm all happy about, however I know not to question Him about it anymore, and just to seek out what it is that He wants me to learn.

How do you know that Christ really died on the cross for the punishment of our sins?

This one was hard. I mean I grew up knowing it, but it wasn't until I was 23 that this really hit what it meant. I think it was when I realized that even when I lose I'm winning. I have to think more of how to explain it so it makes sense so I'll come back to this...

Why is Christ dying on the cross so significant for our lives today? Would we really be dying left and right when we sin against God if Jesus had not died?

You might not. However. If you think life is bad, I really think it would just be even worse (and this is considering that people live in even worse right now) It's important because of all the curses that can come against us Jesus dying threw them out. If you chose to be cursed then you are, but if you don't bad things don't last. Things happen and we were never promised to be comfortable here, because this is not where we are to stay. And you can't get where you have to go, if the door is locked. And Jesus opened that door.

It's so easy to say you "must confess with your mouth and believe in your heart that Jesus is Lord and Savior", but how do you know that you believe in your heart?

When you don't have to open your mouth.

It's so easy to say you must have a relationship with God. But how do you have a relationship with God when God is supposedly a spirit? Just praying and reading the Bible and living like Christ as much as possible?

Again, this isn't instant. And you have to stop and learn to not think of God as a "spirit' really He is only as such in the holy spirit that lives in us. Other then that God will not be a spirit when we are with him, he will then be physical with us. (Because the physical that we know now will no longer exist) Your right it is easy to say it. Shoot I tell people know anything I say probably sounds easy, and getting to this point was not. Actually getting past lies and avoiding others was hard and annoying. It's not the quantity that your putting in but the quality. Stop asking so many questions and just talk. Tell God what it is that you think, what it is that you've learned, and then ask Him to just change your heart and thoughts. He'll do it. Slowly or quickly but surely you will have a relationship with him.

It's easy to say "all Scripture is God-breathed" or the inspired Word of God, but how do you know that for the fact WITHOUT reading 2 Timothy 3:16?

You want me to be honest? I don't remember ever reading 2 Timothy 3:16. It's something I was told growing up. And then something I saw in a TV show. So while I just knew it to be, I thought it was interesting a show not promoting God but including him spun it off in a different way.

Why should I accept the statement "Christians will never stop sinning" but yet, people say "not everyone who proclaims to be Christian isn't saved or going to heaven because of how they live"? How are they living that's so different than you who still commit sin?

I think people say that to make others feel better because we're not perfect. And that is because of lukewarm people (which I have been) which know what to do, and start to do it but don't finish. Really the second statement is a bad phrasing of "Be all about God, or Not about Him" like what a yes or no question really is. There is no middle either you are or you aren't. There are people that say they are Christian's loudly, and others who do not. Most of the time they are talking about people saying it loudly, and covering their own tracks about not doing as they should. Really, not being mean you don't need to pay attention to other people sometimes til you yourself are straight.

Why aren't Christians more united? Why are there two sides to every fundamental issue of the Bible? (ie. women preachers, faith vs works for salvation, baptism, trinity, big sins vs little sins, calvinism vs arminianism, sinless perfection vs sinning Christians, and more? Do I have to choose sides?

Hmm. I can't say. I guess the same reason people in a family aren't always united. I tend to not notice things like that anyway.

Can I go to Hell for not tithing 10% of my GROSS income?

I don't think you would go to hell. I mean I do it because tithing my little money I couldn't afford to but did anyway lead to me being able to tithe double that amount. So I just feel as though, I should be giving God back at least something since he blesses me. As well I do remember hearing in church that even when things don't come directly to you they come to your children and grandchildren. Like Abraham to Medichek (I spelled that wrong) to his grandson Levi. I know my Aunt has said the good things that have happened to me and to our family is because someone prayed and lived right and that blessing fell on us. Same with my mom, that things she has done have come to me in turn.

Can I go to Hell for not participating in ALL church ministries and not attending a physical church building EVERY Sunday to worship God?

Girl bye! Honestly sometimes I can't stand being a part of things in my church. However I do it though because I remember it's not for me, I don't have to be blessed all the time sometimes I need to bless other. (Many times) I mean I'm a youth advisor and my kids get on my LAST EVERLOVING NERVE. But that's the only Sunday I'm on time is when I have something to do with them (I secrectly love them but won't tell them that. Then I'd never have peace and quiet). I stop thinking of self, and only of others when it comes to serving. But no you don't have to do everything. So people just make up stuff about having to do everything. I don't get it and they do it to my mom which irritates the heck out of me. And there are times I walk about thinking just because you see me doesn't mean you need to call my name and tell me do to something. I don't think you have to go every Sunday, but I like going because I feel like God comes to me everyday all day, I can at least once in the week go to Him.

That's all the questions I have for now.

 

[OhmyKimB]

Start trusting God...to be completely unsuspecting of His motives. To not wonder why things are happening but just know there is a purpose. To know how you feel but not accuse him of what it is that you feel.


I see submitting as when I actually say God this is what I want, but we're going to do what you want and I'm going to try my best to remember who is in charge here for real.

 

[Poohbear]

Hi Poohbear, based on what you have said here, it seems like you may not have received genuine conversion (salvation). Understanding of his word, faith/belief in his word, the presence of the holy spirit, and turning away from sin are true marks of conversion, and it seems like you struggle in all of these areas. Is it possible for people to spend years in the church and not be converted, YES absolutely! You know the word inside in out, you have knowlege but no understanding. Here is a testimony below of a pastor's wife who served in ministry 12 years before she realized she wasn't truly converted. Her testimony is here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAxeDX-GYHw.

I watched this yesterday evening and I could TOTALLY relate to what she was saying... especially about when she was a little girl. When she went up to accept Jesus and got baptized at age 14, she really didn't feel a big change or repentance of her sins since she was relatively a good kid. As she got older, she mentioned how she learned about sin from the bible or what the pastor or other people said were sins. She was able to keep the image of how a saved person would look to the world, but there was nothing in her heart. She felt like she did things because they were good things to do, not because it was for God.

I "accepted Christ" and got physically baptized at age 8. At that time, I knew nothing about repenting of sins in order to be baptized. I just felt like if I believed in Jesus I wouldn't go to Hell. As I got older, I started to do a few things that I knew were sins. Later, I started to wonder "How can I do these sins that are clearly against God and be a Christian? Am I really a Christian?" That's why I don't see how ANYONE can claim to be a Christian and still sin, whether it's considered a big sin or a little sin.

I just feel like a Christian should be sinless... holy, blameless, pure, and upright. And yes, I get what some of you had pointed out about it not happening overnight. But I feel like this:

If you know FOR SURE that what you are doing is wrong, you should repent and NEVER do that sin again.

If you did not know what you are doing is wrong, and once God reveals to you that it is wrong, you should then repent and NEVER do that sin again.

I'll just stick to myself here and no "other Christians"...The problem I am having is doing sins that I know are wrong AGAIN after I have asked for forgiveness. I can't be a true Christian if I do a sin that I know is wrong a week later, month later, year later, whatever time it happens again, and even if I feel sorry for it. Correct? If not, then what is correct?

 

[LatterGlory]

Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost

Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us.
(2Ti 1:13-14)

Psa 119:11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.

 

[LatterGlory]

Act 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.


Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
(Gal 5:16)

 

[Sharpened]

For example, Jesus obeyed all the laws that were on this earth regardless if He agreed with them or not.

He did not follow all the rules the Pharisees had added. Obey Our Father first and everything else will fall into place.

 

[CoilyFields]

Hi Poohbear,

I've sensed your struggle for a while now and don't worry...God knows our weaknesses and is not some dictator who we cannot ask questions. I am going to pray about your questions before I try to tackle them. But in the meantime heres some questions to ask yourself,

1. Do you believe that God exists? (Is there a part of you that trluy believes-weather you can explain it or not-that there is SOMETHING bigger than ourselves?)

2. Do you believe that we as humans all have the propensity to do bad things? (sometimes seemingly without really wanting or trying to)

3. Do you believe that because of the above that you need a savior?

4. Do you believe that Jesus was the son of God? (The promised messiah of the OT that the Jews looked forward to)

5. Is Jesus your savior? (the only way to God, the only one who can save you from the true punishment of the bad things that you do)

If you believe the above...you are saved...you are a believer, you have salvation and the only thing to do is increase your faith.

Faith comes by hearing the Word of God. There is nothing wrong with examining the document (the bible) that God has proclaimed as divinely inspired.

A good series of books that may help you are the ones by Lee Strobal. He was an athiest journalist who set out to disprove Christianity and everything it stands for and ended up being a top apologist that now defends the word of God. He has books called, "THe Case for a Creator", "The Case for Christ", "The Case for Faith", and "THe Case for the Bible". I've read the case for Christ and it has served to strengthen my faith.

Oh! But one question I can answer now is about Jesus atoning for our sins through his sacrificial death.

1. When man sinned in the garden the punishment was death and seperation from God.

2. God promised that someone would come that would eventually recconect man and God (the messiah).

3. But in the meantime to stay in right standing with God and because God is not a lier...something had to die when we sinned. (the wages of sin is death...period!).

4. So God established animal sacrifices where man could transfer his sin to an animal and with its death atone for his sin. (Now this was not some easy way out because God required it be your best and purest cattle-the most expensive etc.).

5. So eventually Jesus came and he became the sacrificial lamb. Because he was 100% man he could literally physically die (for our sins). And because he was 100% God he could die transcendentially...for past present and future sins, once and for all. He was perfect so qualified as the most precious pure sacrifice. He conquered death and the grave and became our ONE way to God, who no longer accepts animal sacrifices but requires that we accept the sacrifice of his son as our savior to be in right standing with Him again-and have eternal salvation.

OK...off to pray and meditate on your questions and concerns

 

[Poohbear]

Poohbear have you received the Holy Ghost ( the evidence of which is speaking in tongues ) since you have been baptized?

I just know I have never spoken in tongues, but I have not read that anywhere in my bible that speaking in tongues is evidence of you receiving the Holy Ghost...

However, the bible does say the speaking of tongues shall cease (as in stop, to come to an end):

1 Corinthians 13:8
8Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

 

[Guitarhero]

I have never spoke in tongues as any kind of evidence that I believe that Jesus is the long-awaited Messiah.

 

[Poohbear]

Poohbear, thanks for sharing more information about your beliefs. It doesn't seem like you don't believe, it seems like you have a lot of questions. But of course no one can determine where you are except you and God. Great!, you've already listened to Paul Washer's sermons so I'm sure that gave you some direction. I'm glad those questions gave you some insight, just keep pressing toward the mark and you will be fine. About the other questions you posted, I can try to find some answers based on related scriptures. Here goes.

1. The bible says obey the laws of the land, Romans 13:1-2, TLB. Obey the government, for God is the one who has put it there. There is no government anywhere that God has not placed in power. So those who refuse to obey the laws of the land are refusing to obey God." So it's probably not biblical to speed, plus it's not safe.

Romans 13:1-2 (KJV) says:
1Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 2Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

To me, "higher powers" mean God (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit). Not man.

4. I believe that the tithe is God's money, so I don't even count it in my income. Malachi 3:8 says, a man robs God if he does not give the tithe and offering. I don't usually worry about it, because the money I give usually is given back to me anyway, more often than not in monetary form. Will you go to hell for it, no. The Isarellites were commanded to give 10% to the church of Levi to do God's work (Numbers 18:21), but the new testament gospel is silent on it but it does say "lay by him in store as we have been prospered" (1 Cor. 16:2), and as we "purposeth in our heart to give" (2 Cor. 9:7), so technically we can give more than 10%. I don't think 10% is a lot, we get to keep a whole 90%. Pastor Rick Warren gives away 90% and keeps 10% but of course everyone can not afford to do that.

I agree that we can give more than 10%, but I also believe we can give less than 10%, especially if we don't have 10% or more to give at that moment in time.

And we don't get 90% of our gross income. We only get around 75% depending on how much you make and how much taxes and deductions are taken out.

Pastor Rick Warren isn't God either.

 

[LifeafterLHCF]

Please don't take this the wrong way op but there no need to debate about religion and scripture..one will do as much or as little as one wants to do..be it tithing a little or not at all..you have the power to decide what you feel is best for you..bc honestly I would have done something real bad if i tried to everything every christian be it well intented or not told me about what I should do.I hope I didn't offend but I see this has been going back and forth and even though everyone has good intentions everybodys walk is different

 

[nathansgirl1908]

Poohbear, I have noticed that your posts have a consistent theme.

I think you are allowing others to infiltrate your mind with garbage. It is perfectly normal to have moments of wavering faith. But I think you are letting nonbelievers convince you that God and His Word are foolish.

And on the flip side, you focus too much on the people in your church and what THEY say you should be doing. If you don't "feel the spirit" and feel like jumping and moving like others, there's nothing wrong with that. Real talk: some of those people are not sincere. And God is not pleased.

So be yourself, and tune out the unbelievers around you (including on this forum) because that is the last thing you need to be listening to when you are feeling like this. That is how Satan operates to turn people away from God.

 

[Crown]

Turn to the FATHER, only HIM knows and can reveal Himself to you and give HIM to you. But, don’t let anyone tell you that you don’t have it if you don’t speak in tongues.

I know this belief is popular in certain groups, but Paul was against it. He said tongues are a sign for unbelievers (1Cor. 14:22), not a sign that you have the Holy Spirit :

1Cor. 12.4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 12.5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 12.6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. 12.7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 12.8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 12.9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 12.10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 12.11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
12.27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. 12.28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. 12.29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 12.30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? 12.31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
13.1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
14.1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
14.5 I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

This is why it is said :
Act. 17.11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.


Tithing (10%) is no more : you are the temple and the priest.
Giving is what you have to do to whoever is in need : give your time, your money, your talent with a sincere heart.

 

[sidney]

So you related to her testimony, do you believe that you are saved?

Yes, I agree with you. Once you are granted forgiveness, you shouldn't struggle with that sin for weeks, months, and years! That is not conversion, that is called being in a continual state of backsliding or perhaps(not having any conversion at all). I think eventually christians will get free of that sin, and not keep doing it over and over. But there is spiritual bondage and I suspect that some sins are harder to get rid of than others. Remember that son that was bound in the bible, only fasting and prayer could release him. Remember it's a battle. We are always at war with the flesh and principalities or powers, the difference is that we gain the power to overcome and eventually that sin with be overcome for good.

I watched this yesterday evening and I could TOTALLY relate to what she was saying... especially about when she was a little girl. When she went up to accept Jesus and got baptized at age 14, she really didn't feel a big change or repentance of her sins since she was relatively a good kid. As she got older, she mentioned how she learned about sin from the bible or what the pastor or other people said were sins. She was able to keep the image of how a saved person would look to the world, but there was nothing in her heart. She felt like she did things because they were good things to do, not because it was for God.

I "accepted Christ" and got physically baptized at age 8. At that time, I knew nothing about repenting of sins in order to be baptized. I just felt like if I believed in Jesus I wouldn't go to Hell. As I got older, I started to do a few things that I knew were sins. Later, I started to wonder "How can I do these sins that are clearly against God and be a Christian? Am I really a Christian?" That's why I don't see how ANYONE can claim to be a Christian and still sin, whether it's considered a big sin or a little sin.

I just feel like a Christian should be sinless... holy, blameless, pure, and upright. And yes, I get what some of you had pointed out about it not happening overnight. But I feel like this:

If you know FOR SURE that what you are doing is wrong, you should repent and NEVER do that sin again.

If you did not know what you are doing is wrong, and once God reveals to you that it is wrong, you should then repent and NEVER do that sin again.

I'll just stick to myself here and no "other Christians"...The problem I am having is doing sins that I know are wrong AGAIN after I have asked for forgiveness. I can't be a true Christian if I do a sin that I know is wrong a week later, month later, year later, whatever time it happens again, and even if I feel sorry for it. Correct? If not, then what is correct?

 

[sidney]

[/COLOR]

Romans 13:1-2 (KJV) says:
1Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 2Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

To me, "higher powers" mean God (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit). Not man.

If you read where is says, the powers that are or ordained by God, you get the sense that he is reffering to man. I don't know if you believe in reading mutilple translations or commentaries but if you do, you will see this is in reference to government.

I agree that we can give more than 10%, but I also believe we can give less than 10%, especially if we don't have 10% or more to give at that moment in time.

And we don't get 90% of our gross income. We only get around 75% depending on how much you make and how much taxes and deductions are taken out.

Pastor Rick Warren isn't God either.

It's really each individual to decide what to give. But we should aim to give God our best, a great illustration is Cain and Able. Rick Warren certaintly isn't Gid but I think he provides a great example of giving God our over and beyond what is required.

 

[Sharpened]

I have never spoke in tongues as any kind of evidence that I believe that Jesus is the long-awaited Messiah.

Neither have I. Maybe one day I will, but I never worried about it.

 

[LatterGlory]

Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
(1Co 14:4-5)

I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all: Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue. Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.
(1Co 14:18-20)

1Co 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

 

[Poohbear]

Poohbear, I have noticed that your posts have a consistent theme.

I think you are allowing others to infiltrate your mind with garbage. It is perfectly normal to have moments of wavering faith. But I think you are letting nonbelievers convince you that God and His Word are foolish.

And on the flip side, you focus too much on the people in your church and what THEY say you should be doing. If you don't "feel the spirit" and feel like jumping and moving like others, there's nothing wrong with that. Real talk: some of those people are not sincere. And God is not pleased.

So be yourself, and tune out the unbelievers around you (including on this forum) because that is the last thing you need to be listening to when you are feeling like this. That is how Satan operates to turn people away from God.

Thanks nathansgirl, but Trust me, it's not unbelievers influencing me to believe this way. I have been feeling this way about whether to believe in Christianity or not before even meeting the nonbelievers online. I haven't had any conversations with nonbelievers about this stuff in real life. I started having these feelings back in 2008, just out of the blue. I even started a thread about feeling like an atheist back then. Then I gradually felt like I believed again, then I started back trying to be back intuned with Christianity. There was even a time back when I was in college, during the year 2004 I believe when I had doubts about Christianity after learning about the history of the Bible and the canonization of the books in the Bible. It had nothing to do with influence of other people. It's 99% my thoughts.

But to be honest about why I've been questioning so much...I think what really started this big rampage of questions is after meeting a woman from the Church of God denomination who said she no longer sins and anyone who sins and calls themselves a Christian is not truly saved. She made so much sense with the things she said and pointed out in the Bible. I just knew I do not measure up to God standards based on what the Bible says. Not what man says. I myself don't see how I can be a Christian either if I commit sin every now and then. I don't habitually or intentionally sin, but that shouldn't matter. The Bible says "go and sin no more!" after putting your faith and trust in Jesus.

And my church is relatively small. None of the members say anything to me about my actions. It's just my father. The other comments I have made are observations I have from visiting and attending other churches throughout my whole entire lifetime and from hearing other people's experiences with different churches and church people.

I'm being myself regardless, it's just that I don't like having labels nor living up to anyone's standards when I feel like I'm a pretty good person with a good heart as it is. I hate having to think everything I do and do not do is wrong, and that's what Christianity and the Bible makes me think.

 

[Poohbear]

Hi Poohbear,

I've sensed your struggle for a while now and don't worry...God knows our weaknesses and is not some dictator who we cannot ask questions. I am going to pray about your questions before I try to tackle them. But in the meantime heres some questions to ask yourself...

...If you believe the above...you are saved...you are a believer, you have salvation and the only thing to do is increase your faith.

1. Do you believe that God exists? (Is there a part of you that trluy believes-weather you can explain it or not-that there is SOMETHING bigger than ourselves?)
I believe possibly God exist but I don't know about putting 100% faith in the whole concept of Jesus, the Bible, sin, and religion.

2. Do you believe that we as humans all have the propensity to do bad things? (sometimes seemingly without really wanting or trying to)
Yes, but I think that's because, with some things, once we are told that something is bad that it makes us feel like we shouldn't do it even though we really do want to do it.

3. Do you believe that because of the above that you need a savior?
I used to but not sure anymore

4. Do you believe that Jesus was the son of God? (The promised messiah of the OT that the Jews looked forward to)
I used to but I don't see what significance of Jesus being the Son of God has do with anything anymore. I know this may sound offensive to you since you are a heartfelt Christian but after hearing "Jesus is the Son of God" so much, it has become meaningless to me.

5. Is Jesus your savior? (the only way to God, the only one who can save you from the true punishment of the bad things that you do)
I used to believe Jesus is my Savior, but I don't know anymore. I feel like if Jesus is my Savior, I would not go against the things in the Bible that are considered wrong.

So I guess I am not saved based on how I answered these set of questions.

Faith comes by hearing the Word of God. There is nothing wrong with examining the document (the bible) that God has proclaimed as divinely inspired.

A good series of books that may help you are the ones by Lee Strobal. He was an athiest journalist who set out to disprove Christianity and everything it stands for and ended up being a top apologist that now defends the word of God. He has books called, "THe Case for a Creator", "The Case for Christ", "The Case for Faith", and "THe Case for the Bible". I've read the case for Christ and it has served to strengthen my faith.

Oh! But one question I can answer now is about Jesus atoning for our sins through his sacrificial death.

1. When man sinned in the garden the punishment was death and seperation from God.

2. God promised that someone would come that would eventually recconect man and God (the messiah).

3. But in the meantime to stay in right standing with God and because God is not a lier...something had to die when we sinned. (the wages of sin is death...period!).

4. So God established animal sacrifices where man could transfer his sin to an animal and with its death atone for his sin. (Now this was not some easy way out because God required it be your best and purest cattle-the most expensive etc.).

5. So eventually Jesus came and he became the sacrificial lamb. Because he was 100% man he could literally physically die (for our sins). And because he was 100% God he could die transcendentially...for past present and future sins, once and for all. He was perfect so qualified as the most precious pure sacrifice. He conquered death and the grave and became our ONE way to God, who no longer accepts animal sacrifices but requires that we accept the sacrifice of his son as our savior to be in right standing with Him again-and have eternal salvation.

OK...off to pray and meditate on your questions and concerns

I have been considering getting those books by Lee Strobel. I need to go check them out.

Your explanation about animal sacrifices helped a bit.

Thank you CoilyFields.

 

[Poohbear]

So you related to her testimony, do you believe that you are saved?

Yes, I agree with you. Once you are granted forgiveness, you shouldn't struggle with that sin for weeks, months, and years! That is not conversion, that is called being in a continual state of backsliding or perhaps(not having any conversion at all). I think eventually christians will get free of that sin, and not keep doing it over and over. But there is spiritual bondage and I suspect that some sins are harder to get rid of than others. Remember that son that was bound in the bible, only fasting and prayer could release him. Remember it's a battle. We are always at war with the flesh and principalities or powers, the difference is that we gain the power to overcome and eventually that sin with be overcome for good.

Yep, I could relate to her testimony. I'm really not sure if I'm saved or not, especially with these doubts and questions...


By the way, about struggling with the same sin for weeks, months, and years... Let me give you a scenario...

Let's say a 'Christian' professed a faith in Christ on November 1, 1990. He learns about fornication being a sin against God.
But he decides to engage in sex for 5 years very frequently, from daily to a weekly basis. He ask for forgiveness each time because he knows it's wrong according to the Bible
Now it's 1995. He maybe has sex monthly or twice a month. Still, he goes to God in prayer to repent. So he stops for awhile.
Then he gets a girlfriend in 2010. He decides to have sex outside of marriage on July 1, 2010. He goes to God in prayer, confesses his sin, asks for forgiveness in hopes of waiting next time til he is married.
Well, now it's January 1, 2011, and he ends up having sex outside of marriage with his girl again.

Isn't that continual habitual sin even though that person waited 6 months to do it again? Does that person really feel sorry for that sin? Is that person really a truly converted Christian if you went back to that sin?

Would it make a difference if this was the only sin he struggled with?

And would it make a difference if he has other sins on top of fornication that he struggles with infrequently too?

If you read where is says, the powers that are or ordained by God, you get the sense that he is reffering to man. I don't know if you believe in reading mutilple translations or commentaries but if you do, you will see this is in reference to government.

It's really each individual to decide what to give. But we should aim to give God our best, a great illustration is Cain and Able. Rick Warren certaintly isn't Gid but I think he provides a great example of giving God our over and beyond what is required.

Commentaries and translations are things I am trying to get away from. I would see how people would say "Obey the laws of the land" but never saw that in the Bible. I think I saw it in this Joseph Smith Mormon Bible passage, but I'm not a Mormon.

Plus, there are some corrupt laws. For example, in the US, you are allowed to drink alcohol at age 21 but if you get caught drinking and driving you will go to jail. Why even have an age limit? Why even allow the selling of alcohol?

And let's not forget legalized abortion and divorce.

And I agree that it's really up to each individual to decide what to give. I just don't think there is a requirement according to these verses:

2 Corinthians 9:7
" 7Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver. "

Deuteronomy 16:17
17Every man shall give as he is able, according to the blessing of the LORD thy God which he hath given thee.

 

[topsyturvy86]

Confusion about what to believe when it comes to sin and being a Christian. I just don't see how I can call myself a Christian when I still sin. Even after asking for forgiveness of the sin.

And then how come EVERYTHING is a sin? Why is everything we do and not do a sin? Knowing or feeling like "everything I do and do not do is a sin" is a miserable way to live.

It's just that after doing all the reading the Bible and praying, I am still left with these questions and confusion.... and it's mainly about sin and being a Christian. I can't get around the fact that being right with God means sinning no more!

I just feel like a Christian should be sinless... holy, blameless, pure, and upright. And yes, I get what some of you had pointed out about it not happening overnight. But I feel like this:

If you know FOR SURE that what you are doing is wrong, you should repent and NEVER do that sin again.

If you did not know what you are doing is wrong, and once God reveals to you that it is wrong, you should then repent and NEVER do that sin again.

I'll just stick to myself here and no "other Christians"...The problem I am having is doing sins that I know are wrong AGAIN after I have asked for forgiveness. I can't be a true Christian if I do a sin that I know is wrong a week later, month later, year later, whatever time it happens again, and even if I feel sorry for it. Correct? If not, then what is correct?

But to be honest about why I've been questioning so much...I think what really started this big rampage of questions is after meeting a woman from the Church of God denomination who said she no longer sins and anyone who sins and calls themselves a Christian is not truly saved. She made so much sense with the things she said and pointed out in the Bible. I just knew I do not measure up to God standards based on what the Bible says. Not what man says. I myself don't see how I can be a Christian either if I commit sin every now and then. I don't habitually or intentionally sin, but that shouldn't matter. The Bible says "go and sin no more!" after putting your faith and trust in Jesus.

Ok, i'm gonna try and see if I can help here. This mindset of Christians not sinning seems like your main problem. Your view on this is totally wrong and is probably the reason why things don't add up in your mind. Jesus was and will be the only human that was without sin. non-Christians sin and Christians sin too! Yep, even the woman from the Church of God denomination you mentioned . 1 John 1:8 -> "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us."

Read Romans 5:20 - the end of chapter 6. I will make reference to it while speaking now plus it will give you a deeper understanding of the sin issue and being saved. I pray that as you read those verses that the words are not just words to be scrutinized but life that penetrates your mind to your spirit, and I pray that God through His spirit gives you understanding of His ways in Jesus's name. Amen.

Ok, so no one can ever live up to the 10 commandments as a way of life. Only Jesus ever did. No one can ever live without sin as a lifestyle, only Jesus did. We are continually transformed to the image of Christ and this is a lifetime process. We will never attain perfection in this earth. The good news is God is not expecting perfection! He said YOU should come as you are. With your sin and your baggage and all of you. You can never be not good enough to be a Christian. God made you and however you turn out is no surprise to Him. If you had kids, you know they're gonna grow and you know what to expect. You wouldn't not want your child anymore because they became a toddler and started being messing the place up or because they became a teenager and started rebelling and doing things against your will. You would rather have them broken and damaged than not at all, right? Basically, that you sin and all what not is no surprise to God. My Church has a sign up saying "No perfect people allowed" . I guess it's to counteract this kind of mentality.

Where sin abounds, grace abounds even more. With non-Christians, i'd say sin is a verb - a doing thing, a lifestyle. With Christians, the spirit of God in us convicts us of sin and 'free's' us. This freedom means freedom from the bondage of sin and not from the ability to sin - we're no more slaves to sin, we have a choice and there is a constant battle between the flesh: Galatians 5: 16-17 "6But I say, walk and live [habitually] in the [Holy] Spirit [responsive to and controlled and guided by the Spirit]; then you will certainly not gratify the cravings and desires of the flesh (of human nature without God). 17For the desires of the flesh are opposed to the [Holy] Spirit, and the [desires of the] Spirit are opposed to the flesh (godless human nature); for these are antagonistic to each other [continually withstanding and in conflict with each other], so that you are not free but are prevented from doing what you desire to do." As you can imagine, this is not easy and we fall into sin.

The difference is as we are not slaves to sin, we have dominion over sin! We have God's grace. One of the devils biggest lies which he has obviously told you is that you are not good enough ... sinner like you. But the bible says in Romans 8: 1-3 that there is no condemnation for those who believe. The bible encourages us to confess our sins to one another. When Jesus taught us how to pray in the Lord's prayer, He asked for forgiveness of sins. This is because we are not and can never ever be sin free as long as we are on this earth.

Hope this has helped at least a little to clarify things for you. Christianity is not about sin/no sin, rules and regulations, this and that. We can't impress God by our ability to be 'sinless' in our eyes, we please Him by faith. Christianity is all about love; loving God and loving people. Stop putting so much pressure on yourself, these things will come ... the Holy spirit will help you. Just focus on seeking God. He will accept your sinful self ... you're not any different from any of His children.

 

[Guitarhero]

She felt like she did things because they were good things to do, not because it was for God.

I "accepted Christ" and got physically baptized at age 8. At that time, I knew nothing about repenting of sins in order to be baptized. I just felt like if I believed in Jesus I wouldn't go to Hell. As I got older, I started to do a few things that I knew were sins. Later, I started to wonder "How can I do these sins that are clearly against God and be a Christian? Am I really a Christian?" That's why I don't see how ANYONE can claim to be a Christian and still sin, whether it's considered a big sin or a little sin.

I just feel like a Christian should be sinless... holy, blameless, pure, and upright. And yes, I get what some of you had pointed out about it not happening overnight. But I feel like this:

If you know FOR SURE that what you are doing is wrong, you should repent and NEVER do that sin again.

If you did not know what you are doing is wrong, and once God reveals to you that it is wrong, you should then repent and NEVER do that sin again.

I'll just stick to myself here and no "other Christians"...The problem I am having is doing sins that I know are wrong AGAIN after I have asked for forgiveness. I can't be a true Christian if I do a sin that I know is wrong a week later, month later, year later, whatever time it happens again, and even if I feel sorry for it. Correct? If not, then what is correct?

That's because there is no magic to being a christian. It simply means "follower" of whom? The Christ, the Annointed One. Simply that. There are no fireworks necessary. Just follow. When any man does good, he innately knows it's God in him. Good and bad were written on all hearts. When that girl and you did something good, it was for the very God who made you.

Too many confuse exuberance with true repentance. Too many feel that tears are needed to follow Christ. Going one direction...then realizing that He's the One you wish to follow...about face...start following. No brass band, no angels singing audibly for you to hear, simply following. Are their stones? Yes, and some are sharp and cut the feet. Keeping on that road when you fall, but getting up again and following, that's what it's all about. It's not about pinpointing some emotional moment...it's about conscious effort and when there has been sin, a conscious effort to turn away and do better. You, like everyone else, are going to sin for the rest of your earthly life. That is a fact. But will your walk with Him outweigh the sin...will the scales tip on the good deeds? Our works build up over a lifetime. If you know He is the Messiah and you sincerely love Him, then you are His follower, no matter how imperfect you are. The very fact that you contemplate your life, goodness and evil, adherence to goodness...evidence...yes.


This is that dark night that St. John of the Cross was talking about on the various levels the soul travels through on it's way to be perfectly united with God. Yours might be contemplative.

 

[sidney]

Yep, I could relate to her testimony. I'm really not sure if I'm saved or not, especially with these doubts and questions...





By the way, about struggling with the same sin for weeks, months, and years... Let me give you a scenario...



Let's say a 'Christian' professed a faith in Christ on November 1, 1990. He learns about fornication being a sin against God.

But he decides to engage in sex for 5 years very frequently, from daily to a weekly basis. He ask for forgiveness each time because he knows it's wrong according to the Bible

Now it's 1995. He maybe has sex monthly or twice a month. Still, he goes to God in prayer to repent. So he stops for awhile.

Then he gets a girlfriend in 2010. He decides to have sex outside of marriage on July 1, 2010. He goes to God in prayer, confesses his sin, asks for forgiveness in hopes of waiting next time til he is married.

Well, now it's January 1, 2011, and he ends up having sex outside of marriage with his girl again.



Isn't that continual habitual sin even though that person waited 6 months to do it again? Does that person really feel sorry for that sin? Is that person really a truly converted Christian if you went back to that sin?



Would it make a difference if this was the only sin he struggled with?



And would it make a difference if he has other sins on top of fornication that he struggles with infrequently too?





Commentaries and translations are things I am trying to get away from. I would see how people would say "Obey the laws of the land" but never saw that in the Bible. I think I saw it in this Joseph Smith Mormon Bible passage, but I'm not a Mormon.



Plus, there are some corrupt laws. For example, in the US, you are allowed to drink alcohol at age 21 but if you get caught drinking and driving you will go to jail. Why even have an age limit? Why even allow the selling of alcohol?



And let's not forget legalized abortion and divorce.



And I agree that it's really up to each individual to decide what to give. I just don't think there is a requirement according to these verses:



2 Corinthians 9:7

" 7Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver. "



Deuteronomy 16:17

17Every man shall give as he is able, according to the blessing of the LORD thy God which he hath given thee.

Well, with the hypothetical situation you speak of above, this is where we get into personal opinion. In my opinion, true repentance does not look like the scenario you painted. To me that is habitual sin. It seems like in a scenario like that, whenever there is opportunity for sin, it happens.....even though the time spaces are there. No conversion has happened because so easily it happens again. Now I know some saints that had very sensual lives when they were in the world, but guess what....as madea said "ka klink!" They've got it locked down now lol! God is not a God that will continue to let his children be bound up in sin. The word says, he corrects the ones he loves. Look at Jonah, God chased him down and put him in a whale so get him to obey. He didn't just leave him in disobedience. So if some goes uncorrected for years, it's my opinion that he is not of the faith. If we study the bible and look at the lives of all the people God considers believers, none of them share this testimony like the one you painted above. Not one person. Did they all sin, yes. Look at David and Bathsheba, but God sent Nathan to bring conviction to David, and you know what.....he stopped. Stopping sin is the difference between a true christian and someone who has religion. The only true mark of a christian is holiness, so if habitual sin resides in one's life there can be no true conversion.

 

[Guitarhero]

Did they all sin, yes. Look at David and Bathsheba, but God sent Nathan to bring conviction to David, and you know what.....he stopped. Stopping sin is the difference between a true christian and someone who has religion. The only true mark of a christian is holiness, so if habitual sin resides in one's life there can be no true conversion.

\\

Not to argue, but this is where the sects differ greatly and I'd like to point that out. The rite of reconciliation says "no" to this because it exists for those who will repent. Is there habitual sin among those who follow Christ? Since we are not just spirits but are largely controlled by our psychology, yes. Unrepented habitual sins ever and final rejection...no conversion. There might be a struggle that one has and it has various addictive facets, not just commission. I humbly disagree...but not to fight...just reaffirming where our side is in this discussion. Very interesting, though!!!

 

[sidney]

\\

Not to argue, but this is where the sects differ greatly and I'd like to point that out. The rite of reconciliation says "no" to this because it exists for those who will repent. Is there habitual sin among those who follow Christ? Since we are not just spirits but are largely controlled by our psychology, yes. Unrepented habitual sins ever and final rejection...no conversion. There might be a struggle that one has and it has various addictive facets, not just commission. I humbly disagree...but not to fight...just reaffirming where our side is in this discussion. Very interesting, though!!!

I'm in the "there is no condemnation for those that are in Christ Jesus" camp as well. Is this what you mean? However, if you study the lives of the Saints of the bible I've never seen any saint bound up in one habitual sin, though none were completely without sin except Enoch. There are many professing christians who continue to live in sin under the guise that God has overlooked and forgiven there habitual sin but I don't think there is any biblical precidence for that at all. I'm not saying you are wrong because I don't know for sure but this is just my opionion.

 

[Guitarhero]

But to be honest about why I've been questioning so much...I think what really started this big rampage of questions is after meeting a woman from the Church of God denomination who said she no longer sins and anyone who sins and calls themselves a Christian is not truly saved. She made so much sense with the things she said and pointed out in the Bible. I just knew I do not measure up to God standards based on what the Bible says. Not what man says. I myself don't see how I can be a Christian either if I commit sin every now and then. I don't habitually or intentionally sin, but that shouldn't matter. The Bible says "go and sin no more!" after putting your faith and trust in Jesus.

Boy is this thread good for reaffirming your faith and causing you to study!!! But....um....regarding the bolded, and not to judge her, she inadvertently sinned when she told you that because she claimed something that is not truth, by not being perfect enough to have known all scripture that is available to her when He commands us to know it:


Ecclesiastes 7:20

There is not a righteous man on earth who does what is right and never sins.

I John 1:8

6If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth.
8If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

The key is fellowship. Walking in darkness, meaning never repenting. Could be a fine line, could not be...but the line is there.

 

[Guitarhero]

I'm in the "there is no condemnation for those that are in Christ Jesus" camp as well. Is this what you mean? However, if you study the lives of the Saints of the bible I've never seen any saint bound up in one habitual sin, though none were completely without sin except Enoch. There are many professing christians who continue to live in sin under the guise that God has overlooked and forgiven there habitual sin but I don't think there is any biblical precidence for that at all. I'm not saying you are wrong because I don't know for sure but this is just my opionion.

Oh boy, there were many but since you all only go by biblically-mentioned saints and not those coming after...I can tell you, many of them lol! What about St. Paul doing things he hated? Habitual. You making me work! LOL. But from our understanding and teaching, Enoch wasn't without the stain of original sin, meaning that he needed sanctifying grace that is missing, having a natural corrupt nature. He consciously chose to walk closely with God daily but was not free from original sin. So, there is a difference between original sin's stain and personal sin. That's what I'm saying. And anybody born with the stain of original sin needs sanctifying grace...salvation. But he is definitely a role model.

My question is this, is it one time, twice, how far apart, over a lifetime, over a week? If committed 5 times in a short or long span of time? Who gets to decide when and how many? Just like Jesus fell on the road to the cross, He got up again. That was a teaching lesson. Get back up and keep on that road. Shrugs. That's how I was taught. Others may differ in their interpretation. But we know to regularly confess and when you do so, you gain more understanding and strength. The important this is to confess it. I guess if you didn't ever confess your sins, then you could say you had no conversion....?????? Shrugs...

 

[sidney]

Oh boy, there were many but since you all only go by biblically-mentioned saints and not those coming after...I can tell you, many of them lol! You making me work! LOL. But from our understanding and teaching, Enoch wasn't without the stain of original sin, meaning that he needed sanctifying grace that is missing, having a natural corrupt nature. He consciously chose to walk closely with God daily but was not free from original sin. So, there is a difference between original sin's stain and personal sin. That's what I'm saying. And anybody born with the stain of original sin needs sanctifying grace...salvation. But he is definitely a role model.

My question is this, is it one time, twice, how far apart, over a lifetime, over a week? If committed 5 times in a short or long span of time? Who gets to decide when and how many? Just like Jesus fell on the road to the cross, He got up again. That was a teaching lesson. Get back up and keep on that road. Shrugs. That's how I was taught. Others may differ in their interpretation. But we know to regularly confess and when you do so, you gain more understanding and strength. The important this is to confess it. I guess if you didn't ever confess your sins, then you could say you had no conversion....?????? Shrugs...

Honestly, I don't know. But I think if someone where truly saved and sinning, then the conviction of Christ will be on their life and they will know what time it is lol! They will get it together. If they fall again, they will get it together. I think the important thing here is that they will KNOW! If you don't feel God moving and correcting you at 2 months, 3 months, 2 years, whatever.....there is a problem! See the thing is, God will go to great lengths to save "keep" those who belong to him, even to the point of bringing calamity to their lives. I know there is atleast one somebody out there that knows what I'm talking about. If you don't know and you're saved....keep sinning and you will find out lol! When God convicts you there will be no question about it, and you will know that you are in him. I'd say the important thing is to know you belong to HIM. But for the ongoing sin, it just doesn't line up. If you are a good, loving father---will you let your 13 year old daughter be a prostitute or will you bring whatever punishment is required to get her in line?

Hebrews 12:6
because the Lord disciplines those he loves, and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son."