silvergirl
Well-Known Member
i dont think 4b is uncommon at all. i agree thst most people with 4b tend to relax more or do other styles so its not noticed. but in real life, i see more 4b's than anything else on black natural hair.
Is type 4b hair uncommon?
- Thread starter jupitermoon
- Start date
she most certainly is 4B.!!
Bulletproof
tHicK hAIr dOn't CarE
Ok question: what does naturally clumping hair look like? And is zig-zag pattern a definite characteristic of 4b hair without regard to texture of zig-zag? I am still confused because I have not had a perm that long so I remember my natural hair pretty distinctly and that zig-zag stuff in the front of my head is very loose, does not tangle and relatively easy to comb. The coils in the back which consider must be somewhere in 4b,c,z lands are not like that at all. I guess I am trying to figure out if zig-zag can be 4a or is it only 4b?
msa
New Member
Frankly, I don't even understand what this zig zag texture is. The way I picture it, it's like kinky straight weave hair. So it's straight but not straight like 1a hair. It sounds like that's what you have in the front of your head, and I'd consider that 4b (unless it's that way because of manipulation from pulling it back or wearing headbands a lot, especially on wet hair).
And the back, it depends on the size of the coils. Are they large enough that other folks see you in real life and could see them? Or are they small and form a kind of "mass" of hair and not defined individual coils or clumps? If they do the kind of mass, undefined thing then I'd say that's 4b as well.
4b applies to a lot of different types of hair. Just like any of the other categories.
BlackMasterPiece
Well-Known Member
Clumping has nothing to do with hair typing imo
Yes hair typing is about the curl pattern or lack thereof. Fine vs. thick/coarse is a seperate sub-category
From the way you're describing it you sound like a 4a/b
msa
New Member
Now I see where the disagreement is coming from. I don't agree with the bold.
They are lots of people who are clearly 4b but their hair has coils. Examples: Nonie, Mscocoface, Mwedzi.
msa
New Member
Tene
New Member
I agree with this, there are different types of 4b as well as 4a or any other hair type. You can't make generalizations and put everybody into one box and say this is what 4b hair is supposed to look like on every single head of hair. You have different textures and everything else. I'm 4a but my hair doesn't look the same as the next person with 4a hair or any of those pics in andre's hair typing system. I think desirae's hair is 4b also and I see why people say you have to look at a person's hair without product and manipulaion. I thought she was 4a at first until she showed her naked hair. I also believe 4b is very common and see many black folks everyday with 4b hair. But most do relax or cover it up with weaves or wigs.
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Rocky91
NYE side boob.
at the confusion in this thread.i vote we all just leave the hair typing systems alone for a little while, have some LHCF hair scientists convene in Stockholm for an official conference, consult with Andre and Ursula and Lorraine Massey and Tyra's stylist and the rest of them and come up with a new, tried-and-true system that makes sense.
Kurlee
Well-Known Member
i would consider her 4a.
Kurlee
Well-Known Member
i have seen many a type 3 with unwet, naked hair and it does not remotely resemble a curl, so except for really loose curls, i think the best judge is wet hair
. Curly hair is curly regardless of it some types take more to enhance them than others.
Kurlee
Well-Known Member
if u comb through 3b/c hair it will puff out and lose definition, too. (puffy straight)
Kurlee
Well-Known Member
I agree. Imo, even on this board where we are "accepting" of hair types and claim to see the beauty in all, there are a ton of people with 4b hair not going natural. Not because of their "lifestyle", the maintenance, preferring the straight look, DH preferencebut simply because they don't think it is acceptable to be seen in it's natural state. Period. I'm not even ragging on them but it is what it is.
is right
knt1229
Well-Known Member
i have seen many a type 3 with unwet, naked hair and it does not remotely resemble a curl, so except for really loose curls, i think the best judge is wet hair
For hair typing I have always read the hair should be clean, dry, and unmanipulated/no product. People whose hair clumps into curls will have those curls and clumping whether wet or dry. Unless, as stated by one poster, the hair is severly under conditioned. Even with frizz the curls and springs should be evident for the hair type to be a type 3. Doesn't make sense to claim type 3 if you have no curl pattern whatsoever.
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knt1229
Well-Known Member
The point I was making is that waves DO NOT mean Desi doesn't have 4b hair. She can be 4b and still get a wave. I am definitely not a 3b/c nowhere even close. So my point still stands being able to get waves is not an indication of hair type.
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Nonie
Well-Known Member
IMO 4B hair is pretty common, but I don't know the proportion of mixed folks in the US so I cannot say how common it is here. But in Kenya where I come from, it is the most common hair and was the most normal hair to me when I was growing up. That 4B is considered ugly was something I found out coming to the US. Even in the UK, and I was there for 6 years, I do not recall my hair texture coming up in any discussion. Still I don't get the unease with 4B hair (although the movie 400 years w/o a comb sort of shed some light) because I ABSOLUTELY love my hair and would dare say no other type can do as many things as 4B can.
Now, I disagree 100% with the theory that 4B hair has not got a pattern or is made of zigzags. I have 4B hair. Not 4A/B or 4A, but 4B hair. My whole family has 4B hair. I also disagree with the theory that 4A hair has the smallest coil, coz my coils are as tiny as they come and I am not 4A coz those curls are bigger. My hair cannot do things 4A hair can like WNG.
In appearance, my hair looks like cotton, a cloud, and like wool. Sometimes it looks rough, like steel wool and could even feel scratchy. And then there are times it will form into lovely tiny coils that you can only see when you're close up. Sometimes it will clump into spirals that look like type 3 hair, but that is when I finger comb from shampooing to conditioning to rinsing, but you can only see them when I hold out a few strands because they don't hang or stand out (could be something to do with length). I get clumping spirals when I don't rake a comb through it or finger comb to separate the strands. I wouldn't dare to do that to my whole head because unlike type 3 hair, my 4B hair shrinks and doesn't hang. It curls back on itself and would form a mass that would be hard to comb.
I find it laughable that people insist that there is a hair that grows in zigzags with no pattern. Like the DNA that spells out hair characteristics somehow is smoking crack and sending out all sorts of confused info into the making of hair. Funny that this type of hair with no definition/pattern is only found in people with more than a centimeter of hair who comb it or brush it or keep it braided or stretched with products that sorta lock it in form from day to day. Funny that when it comes out of the head (look at guys who shave) it comes out with a cute curly pattern and then it suddenly realizes "Oh shoot! I'm supposed to be 4B and then starts a zigzag dance."
Whatev' Andre!
OK, so someone will tell me that the fact that no manipulation is the only way to see a pattern means it has no pattern.
If a type 1 person did not manipulate her hair, it'd fall into the state that is most normal to it and be that: straight. If a person with wavy type 2 also didn't mess with her hair, it'd fall into cascading waves. If a person with type 3 hair didn't mess with her hair, it'd fall into lovely curls. And then come the type 4's. 4A hair unmanipulated would form curls that are obvious and if product is added would stretch and dangle kinda like 3's and even clump so the curls are obvious. While 4B hair unmanipulated would form the tiniest curls ever and shrink up on itself into a compact mass that looks like a mat. If you added product, it would still shrink up, maybe even more....unless you shingle with heat to set the stretched strands and then you might see it take the form of 4A.
4B hair is often referred to as CNapp hair when it is in its manipulated form. And why is 4B hair hardly seen in its natural curly state? For the simple fact that it shrinks up and curls back on itself forming a compact mass that would be impossible to deal with if it were left like that. 4B hair locs the easiest because that's just how it is; and by the same token, not combing 4B hair is an automatic loc-ing prelude. The tiny curls would tangle badly and it'd just be easier to cut it. So anyone with 4B hair HAS TO manipulate it to keep that from happening. We rake combs or brushes through it to keep it in check. And 4B hair holds its shape (another unique characteristic of this hair) so that if you brush it, it doesn't spring back into curls like 3's but will stay like that. So do that often enough...braid it often enough...stretch it often enough...and while doing that use products that aren't "wet" and set the do and you just may never remember that your hair truly has tiny curls. 4B hair is curly. Hence the descriptions "nappy hair" and "kinky hair" = hair with tiny/tight curls/coils.
ETA: I was thinking of Neith's point that 4B hair doesn't clump and I showed her that it can clump by doing an experiment on my hair and taking close-ups, but I would like to add that 4B hair doesn't clump as easily as 4A hair because of the size of the coils. 4A hair has big curls that cup adjacent ones easily so that several can clump to for a clear spiral. 4B hair on the other hand has such small coils that indeed clumping isn't as easy because the coils have to be lined up just so in order for the tiny coils to cup each other and any hairs that clump are so few that it's not conspicuous. So Neith, you are sorta right. 4A hair is hair that visibly/conspicuously clumps. 4B hair, not so much.
Now, I disagree 100% with the theory that 4B hair has not got a pattern or is made of zigzags. I have 4B hair. Not 4A/B or 4A, but 4B hair. My whole family has 4B hair. I also disagree with the theory that 4A hair has the smallest coil, coz my coils are as tiny as they come and I am not 4A coz those curls are bigger. My hair cannot do things 4A hair can like WNG.
In appearance, my hair looks like cotton, a cloud, and like wool. Sometimes it looks rough, like steel wool and could even feel scratchy. And then there are times it will form into lovely tiny coils that you can only see when you're close up. Sometimes it will clump into spirals that look like type 3 hair, but that is when I finger comb from shampooing to conditioning to rinsing, but you can only see them when I hold out a few strands because they don't hang or stand out (could be something to do with length). I get clumping spirals when I don't rake a comb through it or finger comb to separate the strands. I wouldn't dare to do that to my whole head because unlike type 3 hair, my 4B hair shrinks and doesn't hang. It curls back on itself and would form a mass that would be hard to comb.
I find it laughable that people insist that there is a hair that grows in zigzags with no pattern. Like the DNA that spells out hair characteristics somehow is smoking crack and sending out all sorts of confused info into the making of hair. Funny that this type of hair with no definition/pattern is only found in people with more than a centimeter of hair who comb it or brush it or keep it braided or stretched with products that sorta lock it in form from day to day. Funny that when it comes out of the head (look at guys who shave) it comes out with a cute curly pattern and then it suddenly realizes "Oh shoot! I'm supposed to be 4B and then starts a zigzag dance."
Whatev' Andre!OK, so someone will tell me that the fact that no manipulation is the only way to see a pattern means it has no pattern.
If a type 1 person did not manipulate her hair, it'd fall into the state that is most normal to it and be that: straight. If a person with wavy type 2 also didn't mess with her hair, it'd fall into cascading waves. If a person with type 3 hair didn't mess with her hair, it'd fall into lovely curls. And then come the type 4's. 4A hair unmanipulated would form curls that are obvious and if product is added would stretch and dangle kinda like 3's and even clump so the curls are obvious. While 4B hair unmanipulated would form the tiniest curls ever and shrink up on itself into a compact mass that looks like a mat. If you added product, it would still shrink up, maybe even more....unless you shingle with heat to set the stretched strands and then you might see it take the form of 4A.4B hair is often referred to as CNapp hair when it is in its manipulated form. And why is 4B hair hardly seen in its natural curly state? For the simple fact that it shrinks up and curls back on itself forming a compact mass that would be impossible to deal with if it were left like that. 4B hair locs the easiest because that's just how it is; and by the same token, not combing 4B hair is an automatic loc-ing prelude. The tiny curls would tangle badly and it'd just be easier to cut it. So anyone with 4B hair HAS TO manipulate it to keep that from happening. We rake combs or brushes through it to keep it in check. And 4B hair holds its shape (another unique characteristic of this hair) so that if you brush it, it doesn't spring back into curls like 3's but will stay like that. So do that often enough...braid it often enough...stretch it often enough...and while doing that use products that aren't "wet" and set the do and you just may never remember that your hair truly has tiny curls. 4B hair is curly. Hence the descriptions "nappy hair" and "kinky hair" = hair with tiny/tight curls/coils.
ETA: I was thinking of Neith's point that 4B hair doesn't clump and I showed her that it can clump by doing an experiment on my hair and taking close-ups, but I would like to add that 4B hair doesn't clump as easily as 4A hair because of the size of the coils. 4A hair has big curls that cup adjacent ones easily so that several can clump to for a clear spiral. 4B hair on the other hand has such small coils that indeed clumping isn't as easy because the coils have to be lined up just so in order for the tiny coils to cup each other and any hairs that clump are so few that it's not conspicuous. So Neith, you are sorta right. 4A hair is hair that visibly/conspicuously clumps. 4B hair, not so much.
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That is exactly what it is. There's the Andre definition, but his doesn't make any sense. His talks about zig zag strands. People who say they really have zig zags generally have little shrinkage in that area. Which goes against the super shrinkage people associate with 4b.
Then there is the "no clumping" definition, which has grown up in the internet and is not really part of the original Andre definition.
If Nonie were here, she'd say that the only difference between 4a and 4b is the coil diameter size. I don't know if that's the only difference, but after thinking about it, I think she's got to be at least part right. It is just impossible for a strand to grow out with a random design; our follicles don't keep changing back and forth. Even the 'z' would be the result of manipulation. Because sure enough when I comb and my hair breaks off (as just happened
) I see a bunch of little 'o's. I just think the smaller the coil gets, the naturally less likely it is to clump into "curls". If you have beedeebees, you have coils.
keepithealthy
Well-Known Member
your silly lol
BlackMasterPiece
Well-Known Member
I'm so mad you said that last line mwedzi!!! You wrong 4 that!
You wrong 4 that!
Oasis
grabbing life by the pussy
I don't think as many folks that claim 4b hair actually have 4b hair. Even when people are relaxed/weaved and I see new growth I'm not seeing 4b hair. I think 4a is more common than 4b, at least in America.
Type 3 is a lot more common among "regular black folks" than I thought, and not just on hair boards.
Type 3 is a lot more common among "regular black folks" than I thought, and not just on hair boards.
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Nonie
Well-Known Member
That is exactly what it is. There's the Andre definition, but his doesn't make any sense. His talks about zig zag strands. People who say they really have zig zags generally have little shrinkage in that area. Which goes against the super shrinkage people associate with 4b.
Then there is the "no clumping" definition, which has grown up in the internet and is not really part of the original Andre definition.
If Nonie were here, she'd say that the only difference between 4a and 4b is the coil diameter size. I don't know if that's the only difference, but after thinking about it, I think she's got to be at least part right. It is just impossible for a strand to grow out with a random design; our follicles don't keep changing back and forth. Even the 'z' would be the result of manipulation. Because sure enough when I comb and my hair breaks off (as just happened
If you have beedeebees, you have coils.
Great minds think alike.
I think we were posting at the same time. My post is just before yours saying the same things. Andre needs to come hang out with me.
leleepop
Well-Known Member
Thanks Nonie and thanks again for the documentary of 400 years w/out a comb. These things about hair typing just does not gel with me.
I love love my hair and I am newly natural. I also get ALOT of compliments on my hair, in its natural state, and when I braid it out. BUT there is always someone, who takes it upon themselves, to try and tell me I shouldnt like my hair, and I would be lying if I said it doesnt bother me SOMETIMES. These ppl are in my immediate family so I have to hear it. I live in the deep south of the U.S. so thats probably y. I just try to keep myself uplifted, but I dont like the negativity of the hair typing. I truly believe that all curly hair can be cared for, the same actually, you just have to treat ALL hair like silk. I think all hair types, natural and other wise, are beautiful in its healthy state.jmho
I love love my hair and I am newly natural. I also get ALOT of compliments on my hair, in its natural state, and when I braid it out. BUT there is always someone, who takes it upon themselves, to try and tell me I shouldnt like my hair, and I would be lying if I said it doesnt bother me SOMETIMES. These ppl are in my immediate family so I have to hear it. I live in the deep south of the U.S. so thats probably y. I just try to keep myself uplifted, but I dont like the negativity of the hair typing. I truly believe that all curly hair can be cared for, the same actually, you just have to treat ALL hair like silk. I think all hair types, natural and other wise, are beautiful in its healthy state.jmho
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Nonie
Well-Known Member
You can't really tell from growth. People will tell you they cut their hair expecting it to be one way and are shocked to see its true texture is different from what they thought.
It's funny you see more 4A coz my friend who is relaxed used to admire my 4A puff (not my hair) and say "You can stay natural coz you have that good hurr! Feel my roots; rough as a brush. I have that nappy hair." Of course I told her that's not my hair and undid a twist to show her my hair.
And indeed her hair felt rough. Rough as my own growth used to feel when I was relaxed. To be honest, it wasn't until 2004 when I saw my curls and when I discovered that I really had soft hair. Shea butter and other products would dry to such rough dry hair. It was funny that when mom came to visit her hair was so rough and dry to touch, just like mine used to be. Not anymore.
jupitermoon
New Member
This is what I originally thought. I don't know about blacks in other places, but I thought most African Americans have 4a, 3c/4a, or 4a/b hair and that type 3 isn't uncommon either. By obeserving my family and friends this is mostly what I see. Then I come to the hair boards and read posts such as "Most people do not have 4b hair like mine". That's why I came to the conclusion that 4b hair is uncommon. I thought 4b hair was hair with no coils/curls whatsoever, but now by reading this thread, I see I was wrong. Hair typing is very confusing.
leleepop
Well-Known Member
I used to be a cosmetologist for over ten years and I never seen a '4b'.lol
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