Is hair type due to race or genetics?
- Thread starter Dani.Nicole
- Start date
tuffCOOKiE
Well-Known Member
I didn't read the whole thread yet, but race is a social construct no? Someone can be "put into" the black race just by what he/she looks like. I'm Haitian (culturally), black (race) and a whole lot of things genetically.
I guess my point is it probably more has to do with ancestry/genetics than race.
ETA: I also wanted to add that I'm glad to hear you're another "convert". I never believed in the good hair/bad hair bit but it's great to free yourself from any kind of ignorance.
I guess my point is it probably more has to do with ancestry/genetics than race.
ETA: I also wanted to add that I'm glad to hear you're another "convert". I never believed in the good hair/bad hair bit but it's great to free yourself from any kind of ignorance.
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Miss*Tress
Well-Known Member
Sorry, Bella_Atl, but I think think the bolded is a load of bollocks. Different groups waged war on each other and sold prisoners of war - usually males - off to the Europeans, not "backward bush people".I would have to disagree Maria that ALL hair can grow long. If you go to some parts of Africa deep into the bush there are Africans whos hair does not grow. It's genetically designed that way, because of the harsh hot climate, lack of water, sand, insects, yada yada. The original slaves that were sold to Europeans, were sold by other Africans that captured people right out the bush. They were considered undesirable backward bush people and were sold. Then the Europeans flipped the script on everybody. So that no-grow trait does exit. I think in the West it has evolved into more of a slow-grow than a no-grow but it's frustrating for a lot women of African descent no matter where you are from.
No that I think of it, the "lack of water, sand, insects" argument doesn't hold water either. Many African ethnic groups live in those same conditions and have no problem with hair growth and retention.
cutiebe2
Well-Known Member
Im not saying they are "black" but their genes developed in the same area Middle East/Africa. If there were some people who originated from Northern Ireland, Scandinavia, etc with 3/4 type hair then I would be very impressedI haven't forgotten. There are many different ethnic groups w/in the Jewish Diaspora and not all have ancestry in Africa. Many do, but the Askhanzism pretty much do not. The Sephardim, the Mizahim (lol...look up Isaac Mizarhi...he's maybe a 3-4 mix), thr Arabs of Yemen, etc...certainly have African descent, but I mentioned this not to make them "Black" but to say that 4 textures are NOT exclusive to Blacks alone.
Bella_Atl
Member
And this is why people think we can't grow hair.
We are SOOOOO misinformed. They cut their hair and sometimes when the media shows short haired women---they are malnurished and therfore the hair doesn't grow. It is not because they can't grow hair.
Many of us come from the same regions and we grow hair--and not becuase it is a mixture.
I think we need to rid orselves of the media versions of negative stereotypes of African can't grow hair.
The terms even used.... backward bush. Hmmmm.
Many women in slaves times and before did have hair but was SHAVED when she became a slave.
Anciet Egyptians also had a culture of shaving their own hair and then putting a wig on. So the cuttin low of the hair is a throw back to that...no genetics.
This is the thing (the no/slow grow) stereotpe we are trying to get rid of. but we continue to spread it.
Okay. 1. When I said "backward bush" that was the menatlity of the Africans that were selling the slaves to the Europeans at the time. They felt like they were SUPERIOR to the bush people. Therefore justifying the selling of their own people.
2. The are tribes in Africa who hair does not grow long or past a certain length. Not because of modern malnutrition (that's UNICEF and THAT'S the media.) I'm talking about Anthropology.
3. I'm talking about the EARLY slaves. Pre-English slave trade. But the Spanish Portuguese slave trade (1500) that predated the English slave trade (1600) by 100 years.
We are SOOOOO misinformed. They cut their hair and sometimes when the media shows short haired women---they are malnurished and therfore the hair doesn't grow. It is not because they can't grow hair.
Many of us come from the same regions and we grow hair--and not becuase it is a mixture.
I think we need to rid orselves of the media versions of negative stereotypes of African can't grow hair.
The terms even used.... backward bush. Hmmmm.
Many women in slaves times and before did have hair but was SHAVED when she became a slave.
Anciet Egyptians also had a culture of shaving their own hair and then putting a wig on. So the cuttin low of the hair is a throw back to that...no genetics.
This is the thing (the no/slow grow) stereotpe we are trying to get rid of. but we continue to spread it.
Okay. 1. When I said "backward bush" that was the menatlity of the Africans that were selling the slaves to the Europeans at the time. They felt like they were SUPERIOR to the bush people. Therefore justifying the selling of their own people.
2. The are tribes in Africa who hair does not grow long or past a certain length. Not because of modern malnutrition (that's UNICEF and THAT'S the media.) I'm talking about Anthropology.
3. I'm talking about the EARLY slaves. Pre-English slave trade. But the Spanish Portuguese slave trade (1500) that predated the English slave trade (1600) by 100 years.
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Miss*Tress
Well-Known Member
Yes to the bolded. See The sickle cell gene is widespread in India for info.
cutiebe2
Well-Known Member
Correct me if im wrong but I thought that is alreayd factored in. I have never seen an Indian told they are black
Even then their skin tone, and other features make it obvious they are not from the same place. In the end I am saying that our outward appearance can indicate or origin. I personally don't know of a better way to identify origin without tests. I think we are saying the same thing.
ActionActress
New Member
I haven't forgotten. There are many different ethnic groups w/in the Jewish Diaspora and not all have ancestry in Africa. Many do, but the Askhanzism pretty much do not. The Sephardim, the Mizahim (lol...look up Isaac Mizarhi...he's maybe a 3-4 mix), thr Arabs of Yemen, etc...certainly have African descent, but I mentioned this not to make them "Black" but to say that 4 textures are NOT exclusive to Blacks alone.
In red, so true and they have admited to that. If we speak or truer origins then we point back to Africa.
Check out Joseph who was mistaken for an Egyptian by his own brothers, Moses who melded with Egyptians and Paul/Saul who that guy asked him, ("aren't you that Egyptian?") Israelites (original ones) looked liked any other black African. They were simply one of the groupings. The Greco-Roman people considered them as such.
BTW Israel was considered northern Africa.
And the true Egyptian were who? Black.
Originally these people were, if we can put a label on "black". But we're discussing the hair and I get and agree with the context of your point....LOL.
cutiebe2
Well-Known Member
Sickle cell developed becuase of Malaria....Malaria is present in tropical/hot cliamtes.....people of hot/tropical climates have darker skin to protect them from the sun. Its all connected
ActionActress
New Member
Im not saying they are "black" but their genes developed in the same area Middle East/Africa. If there were some people who originated from Northern Ireland, Scandinavia, etc with 3/4 type hair then I would be very impressed
There are...but it is the African that pops through from time to time. ALL come from Africa so don't be shocked if you see that. I've seen it.
ActionActress
New Member
In red--- that is what I am trying to clear up. It is is not Anthropology---unless you speak of European understands of how Africans were.
But no, what they try to show you as natural no/grow hair----*is* a result in many cases MALNUTRITION. THEN they pass it off to you as anthropology. That is the whole psychological Jedi pull the wool over the eyes trick they do to those of us who do not think critically. Also I did say---some do shave the hair and they still pass it off as "anthropological genetics."
Many African women with 4zzz hair do grow their hair. Their hair grows. Period.
I don't agree with the recessive allele formed by mixing races. I think of hair like skin color. There are many, many alleles that determine the phenotype...Meaning that people can be every shade of skin color. I don't think that at one point there was only dark, dark black and white like paper and slowly they mixed to create different complexions. Nor to I believe that there was at one point only 1A and 4ZZZ and slowly they mixed to create everything in between.
Of course genes and genetics are intertwined with race. Yes, there is some interplay with recessive and dominant genes. But there are most likely too many genes determining this single trait to say it's because of one thing or another. The same way a black person comes in all shades, their hair can come in all textures.
(FYI: I didn't read the article.)
Of course genes and genetics are intertwined with race. Yes, there is some interplay with recessive and dominant genes. But there are most likely too many genes determining this single trait to say it's because of one thing or another. The same way a black person comes in all shades, their hair can come in all textures.
(FYI: I didn't read the article.)
wild curls raquelle
New Member
While these are two most well-known examples this actually applies to just about everybody south of the border. And before anybody says it, those countries were not empty when the cruise ship stopped and dropped off it's passengers. The intermingling of those indigenous people of Central and Southern Americas + pure Africans = brown people in a myriad of shades. My family is from Panama and Venezuela and we have just about every shade of brown in the family as well as just about every texture and hair type, a nice little rainbow of brown people.
I'm super-dee-duper glad you mentioned location. Now this is probably the only part of science I understand, but location, climate, diet are factors that affect the evolutionary out come of animals (yes people are animals just at the top unfortunately). The fact that people think that Africa is one country as opposed to several we often forget about the varying climates in each country that have an affect on evolutionary impact on the human body. If you can get cancer from the sun and it turns skin brown well need I say more. And the kinky/ tightly coiled hair is a matter of protection. Straight hair allows more vitamin D into the skin which is something you would need say if you live in Europe hence possibly why many people in the north would have such. Tightly coiled hair does the opposite it prevents vitamin d from entering the skin because of the extreme exposure to vitamin d already. Wheeww a mouthful. But with the onset of global warming, industrialization, caustic materials, changes in lifestyle natural evolution still is in existence but we will never notice it because it take generations for such physical features to present itself. (Tell my momma her money ain't going to waste here in grad school)
Albinism is a genetic defect along with blonde hair blue eyes. Those are all genetic mutations. I am firm believer everything is a roll of the dice. In most cases we carry all of these genetic traits related to physical features which would explain why my brother although much fairer than me and different father has dirty blond hair (and his daddy is "black" mines bi-racial, I love debunking myths and stereotypes). Many of the people of the Salomon Islands, New Zealand, Austrailia and other parts of the UK have dark skin and naturally blonde hair or highlights. You carry the trait and then there is a probability that you could end up with this as a physical feature. Disease well I fell asleep that day in class but it plays the same role but not all groups carry all genes because all genes are passed on through sexual contact or via the blood stream (blood transfusion). That is how a child who has two hiv positive parents born with out hiv becomes hiv negative, they carry the trait but are not infected with the disease.
cutiebe2
Well-Known Member
My mother's side has "bad hair" and I say in the way that our hair is soooo thin and fine. The only person who had long hair was my aunt, who was a chinese throwback baby (her hair was 3c/4a). My mother has semi-simlar hair, very soft and cottony, but thin. Growing up I personally found that the coarser hair girls (4b to cnapp?) had better luck with relaxers. I had one relaxer and went bald. My mother has had extensive relaxer damage. Even now as a natural my hair is thin and I rather wear it up then down. That, I think, has been the greatest impact on my hair, not just that it is "black" hair
bedazzled
New Member
I would just like to say that genetics does not define race & anyone that has taken a science or anthropology class can tell you that race is a cultural thing with NO genetic basis. With that sad hair type probably came from environmental issues. The kinkier hair was probably needed to protect the scalp from the sun in hotter areas.
Bella_Atl
Member
This is my last response. And then you can run with it all that you want.
I am not casting a wide net over the continent of Africa. I was talking about a small, group of people, in a minute corner, of Africa that were sold as slaves amongst others 400 years ago. Are they still sitting there? Probably not. There are Somalians, Ethopians, Nigerians, Kenyans, etc. That grow long beautiful hair. But there is a people in Africa that do not. It's not an insult, it's nothing to take personally, it's nothing to be offended about...it just is. It's science, it's anthropolgy. And for those women who hairs doesn't grow the typical 6 inches per year there is quit possibly a genetic reason for that. And so what? The thread was about genetics and hair. Just because you don't like it don't mean it aint so.
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Duchesse
Well-Known Member
Thank you for this. We all know the benefits of proper nutrition and hair growth, and that long hair is something that we (on this board and elsewhere) value. If you have a poor diet, your hair will grow very slowly. If your culture does not value long hair, it will be shaved or cut off, or hair care practices will not be conducive to long growth. This doesn't mean that some peoples of African descent do not have the potential for long hair growth.
As far as hair type and race/genetics, I agree with others who said that it is one and the same. Your genetic pool determines your phenotype which determines which race you will socially be ascribed too. I took Anthro 101 many moons ago, and kinda forgot about all the alleles and scientific jargon.
Dani.Nicole
New Member
I see what you're trying to say Dani and I have to say I've loved watching you evolve and grow since joining.....it shows me what a positive environment LHCF is.
I think its just a happenstance of genetics and ancestry. My grandmother on my fathers side is half white and has very soft 3b wavy texture and it seems that had ZERO impact on my texture and hair I have two black parents and they both rocked their fierce fro's in the 70s. My mother has 4a/b tightly coily kinky hair with a tendency to be dry and I definitely got her texture without a doubt my hair is thick, coarse and could never be described as curly only coily.....sometimes the child would have randomly gotten their grandmothers texture, sometimes they take after their maternal side rather then paternal like me.
Its all just a happenstance of how the genes happen to mix and which traits end up being dominant, claerly for me, the Africa showed up and showed out!
I'm so glad to see your perspective change and mature Dani
Awh lol I am so flattered :Blush2: I really am trying to grow! I've learned so much so far and thanks to all of you!
Dani.Nicole
New Member
I'm at work so I can't even read what everyone is saying!
fluffylocks
New Member
I think its genetic.
But I dont think hair folicle shape, and whether your hair is straight or curly goes together.
Because I saw a "conditon" where some white people have a flat hair folicle shape, and there hair grows up like an afro, and it doesnt look silky. I think the shape of your hair folicle causes your hair to either grow down or up, and that the more your hair grows up, the more your cuticles are not laying flat which causes it to tangle more and be more dry. Because Asians have the roundest folicle, and they also have the silkiest hair that is the most straight.
And then I think curly hair can be found in anyone, but you see it alot in black people.
So i think the hair folicle shape, and the curlyness of hair are passed down through genetics in alot of black people, that they are dominant genes-
Thats how I think sometimes you can see a black person with curly hair, but a silky texture, and sometimes with a non-silky texture, but straight hair, and white or other races with hair as curly as black people, but a different texture ect.
But I dont think hair folicle shape, and whether your hair is straight or curly goes together.
Because I saw a "conditon" where some white people have a flat hair folicle shape, and there hair grows up like an afro, and it doesnt look silky. I think the shape of your hair folicle causes your hair to either grow down or up, and that the more your hair grows up, the more your cuticles are not laying flat which causes it to tangle more and be more dry. Because Asians have the roundest folicle, and they also have the silkiest hair that is the most straight.
And then I think curly hair can be found in anyone, but you see it alot in black people.
So i think the hair folicle shape, and the curlyness of hair are passed down through genetics in alot of black people, that they are dominant genes-
Thats how I think sometimes you can see a black person with curly hair, but a silky texture, and sometimes with a non-silky texture, but straight hair, and white or other races with hair as curly as black people, but a different texture ect.
bedazzled
New Member
Correct me if im wrong but I thought that is alreayd factored in. I have never seen an Indian told they are black
People used to mistake native americans for being 'negros' all of the time. The irish were once considered being black too.
Black is an ethnicity, not a race.
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