Is hair type due to race or genetics?

[Dani.Nicole]

Before joining this board, I must admit I was an ignorant fool. I bought into the "good" hair, "bad" hair thing. I always associated what I now call 3b or 3c curls with those of mixed raced or of hispanic ancestry. But after seeing so many ladies on this board with type 3c hair who are of African descent only, it made me begin to wonder if hair type has anything to do with race at all. I used to believe that was the case, but now I believe it has everything to do with genetics. I was reading a thread in another forum that inspired to me to think about this further. I read this very informative article on hair types and genes: http://www.thetech.org/genetics/ask.php?id=107

Here's what I think. Basically it's not so much "race" that defines a hair type, it is the genes that particular group carries. I think that we can all agree that the prominent genes in those of African ancestry are the 4a's and 4b's. But I think a probable cause of the different types of hair we see is due to a mixing of various genes. Thus forming a new recessive allele in the gene pool of a particular race (Sorry if that sounds text bookish ). Each race has a distinct set of genes that defines their hair type. But when these genes are mixed together, a new hair type emerges. For example, the 3c hair type is probably a recessive allele within the African ancestry gene pool. It could have been formed by mixing the genes of one race outside of African ancestry. From that point on, this gene was probably passed on to various generations. Or put quite simply, it's just a recessive allele period that shows up within the African ancestry gene pool every so often. But the dominant allele for 4a/b will more often than not be the most common.

So ladies what do you think? I probably looked way deep into this but I still find it interesting! I love genetics

 

[jamaraa]

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[Bella_Atl]

It's both. Genetics is what defines a race. I am Dominican. Most of us are a mixture of African, European, and Native American. It could be a little more of one and a less of another. I consider myself racially a black woman and culturally latina. As far as our hair goes. The 4s is about 30% our population. 3s & 2s is about 60% of our population, and under 2s is about 10%. The kicker is you can take the fairest of us to the darkest of us and you can put any one of these numbers on our heads.

 

[Dani.Nicole]

I don't buy into Andre's typing system...it's FAR too narrow. Most people, no matter the race probably have multitextured hair. Race is a social construct...it has little to do w/ genetic variation. In the US you have the so called one drop rule" which "eyeballs" and decides racial placement based on external markers...notoriously inaccurate (hence your being surprsed by "full Blacks" w/ hair that doesn't fit the stereotype) However, for our purposes, let's say it does. Of course family genetics is an issue w/in so called race, but higher percentages of whatever Andre's types you want to look at do occur at higher rates in certain populations.

OK when you speak of "African ancestry" are you merely speaking of West Africa or all of it? Every hair type known to man is in Africa, some more prominent in certain areas than others. IN some places, 4s are the exception and 2-3 the rule. Some of what's considered "mixed race" hair types actually shows no evidence of having origined outside of so called Black Africa. In short, I guess it depends on where you come from and what contacts your group had, but we all get our hand in the genetic lotto handed to us.

Anyway, doesn't matter, IMHO....we gotta take care of what we got on our heads and accept it for what it is. shurg.

When I say African ancestry, I mean whatever defines "blackness" lol. I was trying to be politically correct. But I guess the word "African" itself is vague because so many different groups of people are from there.

 

[BostonMaria]

It's both. Genetics is what defines a race. I am Dominican. Most of us are a mixture of African, European, and Native American. It could be a little more of one and a less of another. I consider myself racially a black woman and culturally latina. As far as our hair goes. The 4s is about 30% our population. 3s & 2s is about 60% of our population, and under 2s is about 10%. The kicker is you can take the fairest of us to the darkest of us and you can put any one of these numbers on our heads.

Hey Bell_ATL! I am Dominican too! I consider myself black latina.

Yes I do believe that genetics play a part in how our hair can come out. What I don't believe is that women with 4a/4b hair can't grow their hair long. I don't believe that its true at all. I believe that as long as you take care of your hair it'll grow as long as it let it.

 

[Renovating]

"Before joining this board, I must admit I was an ignorant fool. I bought into the "good" hair, "bad" hair thing. I always associated what I now call 3b or 3c curls with those of mixed raced or of hispanic ancestry. But after seeing so many ladies on this board with type 3c hair who are of African descent only, it made me begin to wonder if hair type has anything to do with race at all. I used to believe that was the case, but now I believe it has everything to do with genetics "


Race and genetics coincide IMO b/c certain genes are specific to certain races. For example, the average person blue or green eyes is not black. I'm quite sure there are some exceptions, but the norm is just that. This is why I don't feel bad at all for thinking certain hair types are associated with mixed race. Are there exceptions? Absolutely, but type 3 hair is common in those individuals. We didn't all just pull a silly assumption out of the sky.

To answer the question, hair type is due to both, since they coincide.

 

[wild curls raquelle]

I think you explained it pretty well without getting to scientific. But you're definitely right. I've been on a quest to prove a friend of mine wrong regarding my hair texture. It is her belief that because my mother is Hispanic and my father is biracial, that is why I have the hodgepodge of curls and that had I been a "real black person" I would have solely 4b hair. I personally don't believe it has much to do with race but rather carriers of the trait. This same issue applies to hair and eye color. Part of the issue is that people often confuse race and ethnicity thus making it harder to disprove the myth. I like Bella consider my race Black and my ethnicity Hispanic. For all I know I could've been born with a new hair type 5a I just want it to be healthy

 

[DarkVictory]

<snipping to avoid giant qoute>
For example, the 3c hair type is probably a recessive allele within the African ancestry gene pool. It could have been formed by mixing the genes of one race outside of African ancestry. From that point on, this gene was probably passed on to various generations. Or put quite simply, it's just a recessive allele period that shows up within the African ancestry gene pool every so often. But the dominant allele for 4a/b will more often than not be the most common.

So ladies what do you think? I probably looked way deep into this but I still find it interesting! I love genetics

Yes to the bolded. Don't know a lot about this part of science, but it seems like it would make sense. The West Africans who were brought to North America had a varied gene pool, since they'd been interacting with Arab and Mediterranean peoples for centuries. What some people call "Indian hair," meaning Native American, might really be due to an North African ancestor much farther back.

 

[jennboo]

Genetics/Ancestry.

 

[jamaraa]

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[Bella_Atl]

Hey Bell_ATL! I am Dominican too! I consider myself black latina.

Yes I do believe that genetics play a part in how our hair can come out. What I don't believe is that women with 4a/4b hair can't grow their hair long. I don't believe that its true at all. I believe that as long as you take care of your hair it'll grow as long as it let it.

I would have to disagree Maria that ALL hair can grow long. If you go to some parts of Africa deep into the bush there are Africans whos hair does not grow. It's genetically designed that way, because of the harsh hot climate, lack of water, sand, insects, yada yada. The original slaves that were sold to Europeans, were sold by other Africans that captured people right out the bush. They were considered undesirable backward bush people and were sold. Then the Europeans flipped the script on everybody. So that no-grow trait does exit. I think in the West it has evolved into more of a slow-grow than a no-grow but it's frustrating for a lot women of African descent no matter where you are from.

 

[lovenharmony]

Subscribing

 

[jamaraa]

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[Dani.Nicole]

Ok...I hear ya I was asking cuz 4 textures aren't limited to Blacks at all. Many people of Arab and various Jewish enthicities have 4 textures. You just don't see it...they either cover it, straighten it, cut it off (in the case of Jewish women and tons of men of every background we're discussing), and relax it. 4 textures are just very much associated w/ Blacks (American definition) in the West, but 4 is not limited to Blacks nor are all Africans 4s.
Does this make sense?

That's very true. But then my next thought would be is if 4 textures are exclusive to certain groups only :scratchch

 

[jamaraa]

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[30something]

Well seeing how race is just imaginary set of vague undefined criteria for labeling people it can't really be race. So generic would have to be the answer. I hate labeling and putting people in categorizes such as the hair type system does. We see how well that is working for us in the states with race, like how race provides limitations, misconceptions and segregation. Altho hair typing has its benefits, however because of the hair typing system someone who haven't been enlighten from hair boards maybe living in the imaginary type 4 and 3 hair glass ceiling.


I know for my self, if I knew that hair can reach great lengths regardless of hair type I'd wouldn't have given up before even trying, and I wouldn't have felt I need to go visit the Petroleum depot a.k.a black hair care isle, or running to the hair dresser thinking my hair is so bad only a professional hair dresser can tame it.

 

[wild curls raquelle]

well I'm glad someone brought up Prince Bandar. Out side of the AA community type 4 hair is referred to as highly textured hair. Also people often associate the curl pattern with texture and strand size. We know that each of these are somewhat mutually exclusive of each other. We mostly discovered this after playing in our own heads. For example it is often assumed that if you are a 4b you have thick, dense, coarse hair. Not always true and we know that. There are plenty of type 2s running a muck with coarse wiry hair. But when this does happen its referred to as textured.

 

[cutiebe2]

It's both. Genetics is what defines a race. I am Dominican. Most of us are a mixture of African, European, and Native American. It could be a little more of one and a less of another. I consider myself racially a black woman and culturally latina. As far as our hair goes. The 4s is about 30% our population. 3s & 2s is about 60% of our population, and under 2s is about 10%. The kicker is you can take the fairest of us to the darkest of us and you can put any one of these numbers on our heads.

I know two Dominican sisters. Both are on the fair side but one has 3a hair and the other 3c/4a hair. The one with 3c/4a hair is slightly lighter but because of her hair she appears to be "more black" alothough they are equally black/other

Domican Republic and Brazil are two examples of how generational mixing impact a population

 

[jamaraa]

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[Dani.Nicole]

^^^ Yeah...keep going

And if 4 textures are in fact exclusive to certain groups, then my next thought would be how did these groups acquire the different genes for hair textures other than that distinct 4? That could go back to the mixing of genes things I mentioned.

 

[ActionActress]

Ok...I hear ya I was asking cuz 4 textures aren't limited to Blacks at all. Many people of Arab and various Jewish ethnicities have 4 textures. You just don't see it...they either cover it, straighten it, cut it off (in the case of Jewish women and tons of men of every background we're discussing), and relax it. 4 textures are just very much associated w/ Blacks (American definition) in the West, but 4 is not limited to Blacks nor are all Africans 4s.
Does this make sense?

Y'all wanna see a fairly typical Saudi who shows their hair? Look up Prince Bandar. Tell me he don't look like James Earl Jones!

One thing to remember is that all man comes from where???? AFRICA!! So it is NO surprise that these "extended Africans" will have Africaness in there hair. That is true Jamaara they relax their hair too. So when one sees an Arab and a American black man looking like brothers, that is what it is....because again---all come from Africa. One would be in shock to know how many people actually had textured hair. Do I know the numbers- no but it is probabky way more than one would think.

Did you know the original Arab populace was black? So it is no suprise to see a black man who is Arab...or whose genes pop through resembling a black man. The same with the original Jews (NEGROID in type--originally as the Roman Titus pointed out)


Thanks to media, we think these peoples are non-African and are some sort of "other people" than what they actually are....people who are African who live outside. Even when one looks at the original indigenous East Indian, one sees darker skin (some darker than US blacks) and some with full features, but the hair is straight. Some Indians exhibit a frizzier texture also. ( Many of them look like subsahan Africans but with straighter hair.)

enjoy this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTYN8D-n68Y

Pay attention to the Indian girls at the 1:28 mark, also check the young children out at the 1:42 mark, check out the india SISTA at the 1:47 mark (she looks like any other gorgeous black woman that we may see walking around.) Also look at the 2:30,then 2:32 (Austalian but could pass for Indian maybe)

Look at ESPECIALLY 2:43 uuuhhh India or Africa? You decide.(She Indian and many of them appear this way, originally....Hamitic background as India was called HINDU KUSH)

And it goes on.


Any way Africans vary, "blackness" varies. All come from the Adam and Eve. The changes come about probably due to environment and diet.


(BTW, the straight hair does Not. Come. From. Aryans.)

 

[jamaraa]

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[cutiebe2]

I would have to disagree Maria that ALL hair can grow long. If you go to some parts of Africa deep into the bush there are Africans whos hair does not grow. It's genetically designed that way, because of the harsh hot climate, lack of water, sand, insects, yada yada. The original slaves that were sold to Europeans, were sold by other Africans that captured people right out the bush. They were considered undesirable backward bush people and were sold. Then the Europeans flipped the script on everybody. So that no-grow trait does exit. I think in the West it has evolved into more of a slow-grow than a no-grow but it's frustrating for a lot women of African descent no matter where you are from.

Actually, because of the way African hair was designed, it breaks more, which yes, is beneficial if you are in a hot climate and want hair off your neck. But it still grows. Black hair can grow long..which is the basis of this board

 

[Kurlee]

I don't buy into Andre's typing system...it's FAR too narrow. Most people, no matter the race probably have multitextured hair. Race is a social construct...it has little to do w/ genetic variation. In the US you have the so called one drop rule" which "eyeballs" and decides racial placement based on external markers...notoriously inaccurate (hence your being surprsed by "full Blacks" w/ hair that doesn't fit the stereotype) However, for our purposes, let's say it does. Of course family genetics is an issue w/in so called race, but higher percentages of whatever Andre's types you want to look at do occur at higher rates in certain populations.

OK when you speak of "African ancestry" are you merely speaking of West Africa or all of it? Every hair type known to man is in Africa, some more prominent in certain areas than others. IN some places, 4s are the exception and 2-3 the rule. Some of what's considered "mixed race" hair types actually shows no evidence of having origined outside of so called Black Africa. In short, I guess it depends on where you come from and what contacts your group had, but we all get our hand in the genetic lotto handed to us.

Anyway, doesn't matter, IMHO....we gotta take care of what we got on our heads and accept it for what it is. shurg.

Totally agree. I never bought into the whole "race" thing because IT IS a social construct that has no basis in fact. It's really hard to break away from that thinking because it is all we know and most people don't know.

Africa is a continent not a country, and there are so many variations of skin, hair, and facial features in Africa that there is no way you can say Africans are predominantly one thing. I am starting to just focus on my hair and doing what it likes and moving away from the categorization and racial part of it.

 

[ActionActress]

I would have to disagree Maria that ALL hair can grow long. If you go to some parts of Africa deep into the bush there are Africans whos hair does not grow. It's genetically designed that way, because of the harsh hot climate, lack of water, sand, insects, yada yada. The original slaves that were sold to Europeans, were sold by other Africans that captured people right out the bush. They were considered undesirable backward bush people and were sold. Then the Europeans flipped the script on everybody. So that no-grow trait does exit. I think in the West it has evolved into more of a slow-grow than a no-grow but it's frustrating for a lot women of African descent no matter where you are from.

And this is why people think we can't grow hair.

We are SOOOOO misinformed. They cut their hair and sometimes when the media shows short haired women---they are malnurished and therfore the hair doesn't grow. It is not because they can't grow hair.

Many of us come from the same regions and we grow hair--and not becuase it is a mixture.

I think we need to rid orselves of the media versions of negative stereotypes of African can't grow hair.

The terms even used.... backward bush. Hmmmm.


Many women in slaves times and before did have hair but was SHAVED when she became a slave.



Anciet Egyptians also had a culture of shaving their own hair and then putting a wig on. So the cuttin low of the hair is a throw back to that...no genetics.

This is the thing (the no/slow grow) stereotpe we are trying to get rid of. but we continue to spread it.

 

[cutiebe2]

Ok...I hear ya I was asking cuz 4 textures aren't limited to Blacks at all. Many people of Arab and various Jewish ethnicities have 4 textures. You just don't see it...they either cover it, straighten it, cut it off (in the case of Jewish women and tons of men of every background we're discussing), and relax it. 4 textures are just very much associated w/ Blacks (American definition) in the West, but 4 is not limited to Blacks nor are all Africans 4s.
Does this make sense?

Y'all wanna see a fairly typical Saudi who shows their hair? Look up Prince Bandar. Tell me he don't look like James Earl Jones!

To the bold...-please remember that Jewish people have direct African ancestry. Jews migrated into European countries and started mixing, making themselves whiter. But there is early Jewish-european art where the show themselves and black. Not West African but North, east, and semi central Africa (down into modern day Chad). So when you see someone with a "Jew-Fro" you are seeing a throwback to their African origins, not necessasily course hair present in diffrent races

 

[jamaraa]

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[Bella_Atl]

Ok...I hear ya I was asking cuz 4 textures aren't limited to Blacks at all. Many people of Arab and various Jewish ethnicities have 4 textures. You just don't see it...they either cover it, straighten it, cut it off (in the case of Jewish women and tons of men of every background we're discussing), and relax it. 4 textures are just very much associated w/ Blacks (American definition) in the West, but 4 is not limited to Blacks nor are all Africans 4s.
Does this make sense?

Y'all wanna see a fairly typical Saudi who shows their hair? Look up Prince Bandar. Tell me he don't look like James Earl Jones!

The Israelites were from Africa. So some modern Jews share some African genes. Hence sickle-cell anemia. Arabs had African slaves, and you know they were making babies. Italian and the Spaniards lived with the Moors for over 200 years. IMHO all hair began in Africa, and worked its way up (and straigtened itself out) as early civilizations migrated up and out of Africa.

 

[BlackMasterPiece]

I see what you're trying to say Dani and I have to say I've loved watching you evolve and grow since joining.....it shows me what a positive environment LHCF is.

I think its just a happenstance of genetics and ancestry. My grandmother on my fathers side is half white and has very soft 3b wavy texture and it seems that had ZERO impact on my texture and hair I have two black parents and they both rocked their fierce fro's in the 70s. My mother has 4a/b tightly coily kinky hair with a tendency to be dry and I definitely got her texture without a doubt my hair is thick, coarse and could never be described as curly only coily.....sometimes the child would have randomly gotten their grandmothers texture, sometimes they take after their maternal side rather then paternal like me.

Its all just a happenstance of how the genes happen to mix and which traits end up being dominant, claerly for me, the Africa showed up and showed out!

I'm so glad to see your perspective change and mature Dani

 

[cutiebe2]

Totally agree. I never bought into the whole "race" thing because IT IS a social construct that has no basis in fact. It's really hard to break away from that thinking because it is all we know and most people don't know.

Africa is a continent not a country, and there are so many variations of skin, hair, and facial features in Africa that there is no way you can say Africans are predominantly one thing. I am starting to just focus on my hair and doing what it likes and moving away from the categorization and racial part of it.

While this is true, skin color is still one of the best identifiers of genetic origin and therefore several other genetic traits. One place that this is true is in health. No matter how much race is constructed it is still true that darker skinned people (therfore people who have African ancestry) have a higher rate of sickle cell, and other health factors. The same with each other race. Yes, when you reach Africa you can further disect this racial group (my reigion of the continent, etc). But while we try to disconstruct race as a hierachical system or basis for inequality we cannot deny its other more practical uses.