Help Answering Poohbear's Question about Sin and Grace

[Poohbear]

nicola.kirwan

I am NOT being overly concerned with what a lot of Christians do. I am giving scenarios to avoid people taking things personally if I use the word "you"...


And when I look at Scripture, it does not tell me believers can and do sin....I can see a believer committing a sin that they did NOT know was wrong to begin with. But if a believer continues to commit sins that they know are flat out wrong, then they really cannot call themselves a true believer.

But if you disagree and feel differently, then how come not everyone is going to heaven if Christians can and do sin? No one has been able to answer that question....

If believers can and do sin, then what's the difference in sinning believers and a sinning non-believer? Unbelief is a sin. How come unbelievers aren't going to heaven while the sinning Christian does?

I think that being overly concerned with what a lot of Christians do is unhelpful. At the end of the day everyone stands before God's throne to be judged for what is in their heart and not for what's in someone else's.

I don't think that anyone has suggested that you can just sin and it will be OK. I said sin is not without consequence. Nor does sanctification mean that you do whatever and are still accepted before God. To be sanctified is to become holy.

I think that just looking at Scripture tells you that believers can and do sin. That's not something that people are just saying to get away with sin. It's a fact and so the question becomes how do we move away from sin rather than "How is it possible that a Christian sinned?" or "Do Christians sin?" Scripture already shows you plainly that the answer is yes it does happen, but it is possible for it not to happen.

But if you want the answer to be, "No, genuine Christians don't sin," then Scripture is not going to help at all, because that's not the reality that it shows us.

 

[aribell]

Poohbear, Galatians shows the story of Peter being rebuked by Paul for playing the hypocrite. Peter knew full well the Gospel, but when he got around the Jews, he began acting like he needed to separate himself from the gentiles. This was sin on Peter's part and Paul rightly called it hypocrisy.

Paul tells the believers in Galatia to restore those who is overcome by sin--those within the church. Restoring them to their previous walk with God.

Paul, in 1st Corinthians gives instructions to the believers there as to how to conduct church discipline regarding a man in their fellowship who was in grave sexual immorality.

Paul also rebuked the Corinthians for going to court against one another.

James rebuked church members for being contentious, envious, and presumptuous.

In reading the epistles, you see scenarios over and over again where the actions of believers are being corrected, and instructions on how to address sin within the fellowship are given. The letters weren't written to unbelievers, but to believers. People who are without sin do not need to be rebuked nor do they need to learn how to help backslidden believers.

No one has to sin; but yes, God's grace is available to us if we repent of that sin. Is it possible to fall into sin that was once repented of? Yes, that is the nature of fallen man. This is why continually walking in the Spirit is imperative. If we don't walk in the Spirit, we will sin. If we do, we won't.

What is the difference between the believer and the unbeliever? Repentance, faith in Christ, and grace given to walk holy before Him. We have the Spirit and God's grace which enables us to walk in holiness before Him. He enables us, He doesn't force us.

I think the issue is important because some strands of Christian perfectionism are essentially heretical and actually invalidate the Gospel rather than upholding it.
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ETA: Who said the sinning Christian is going to heaven? Everyone alive on this earth right now still has the opportunity to repent of sin, so long as their heart hasn't been hardened.

 

[Poohbear]

Poohbear, Galatians shows the story of Peter being rebuked by Paul for playing the hypocrite. Peter knew full well the Gospel, but when he got around the Jews, he began acting like he needed to separate himself from the gentiles. This was sin on Peter's part and Paul rightly called it hypocrisy.

Paul tells the believers in Galatia to restore those who is overcome by sin--those within the church. Restoring them to their previous walk with God.

Paul, in 1st Corinthians gives instructions to the believers there as to how to conduct church discipline regarding a man in their fellowship who was in grave sexual immorality.

Paul also rebuked the Corinthians for going to court against one another.

James rebuked church members for being contentious, envious, and presumptuous.

In reading the epistles, you see scenarios over and over again where the actions of believers are being corrected, and instructions on how to address sin within the fellowship are given. The letters weren't written to unbelievers, but to believers. People who are without sin do not need to be rebuked nor do they need to learn how to help backslidden believers.

No one has to sin; but yes, God's grace is available to us if we repent of that sin. Is it possible to fall into sin that was once repented of? Yes, that is the nature of fallen man. This is why continually walking in the Spirit is imperative. If we don't walk in the Spirit, we will sin. If we do, we won't.

What is the difference between the believer and the unbeliever? Repentance, faith in Christ, and grace given to walk holy before Him. We have the Spirit and God's grace which enables us to walk in holiness before Him.

I think the issue is important because some strands of Christian perfectionism are essentially heretical and actually invalidate the Gospel rather than upholding it.

nicola.kirwan

Okay, so if everyone sins, how come everyone isn't going to heaven? Aren't we all going to heaven since sin doesn't matter? That's the main question that I posed to letskeepntouch in the other thread.

Also...
Not all believers repent of sin...
Not all believers are walking holy before Him...
You said it yourself when you said believers can and do sin... if a believe can and does sin, then that's not repentance nor walking holy...

 

[aribell]

@nicola.kirwan

Okay, so if everyone sins, how come everyone isn't going to heaven? Aren't we all going to heaven since sin doesn't matter? That's the main question that I posed to letskeepntouch in the other thread.

Also...
Not all believers repent of sin...
Not all believers are walking holy before Him...
You said it yourself when you said believers can and do sin... if a believe can and does sin, then that's not repentance nor walking holy...

Who said sin doesn't matter? I said the opposite.

"Not all believers repent of sin". Who says that they aren't a "tare" and are genuine believers? That's why I said being concerned about what other Christians are doing isn't helpful because at the end of the day God is the only one who is going to be able to judge who belongs to Him and who doesn't. We know from the Gospels that there will be many who name the name of Christ but will be cast out for being workers of iniquity. We know there are tares among the wheat that God said should remain among the wheat for right now. So the question of what "some believers" are doing can easily lead astray because for all anyone else knows, that person may very well not end up in heaven.

Repentance comes after sin and is the result of a convicted heart. There are many different sins that Christians must overcome. It's dangerous to start with a conclusion (No Christian will ever sin) and create a theology around it.

 

[Poohbear]

nicola.kirwan

Who said sin doesn't matter? I said the opposite.

When you say that "believers can and do sin", that is making it like sin doesn't matter when it comes to salvation.

"Not all believers repent of sin". Who says that they aren't a "tare" and are genuine believers?

So when you say "believers can and do sin," are you only talking about non-genuine believers? Only genuine believers repent of sin, meaning DO NOT SIN ANYMORE PERIOD WHATSOEVER? If that's the case, no one is a genuine believer if all believers still sin even after repenting.

That's why I said being concerned about what other Christians are doing isn't helpful because at the end of the day God is the only one who is going to be able to judge who belongs to Him and who doesn't. We know from the Gospels that there will be many who name the name of Christ but will be cast out for being workers of iniquity. We know there are tares among the wheat that God said should remain among the wheat for right now. So the question of what "some believers" are doing can easily lead astray because for all anyone else knows, that person may very well not end up in heaven.

Repentance comes after sin and is the result of a convicted heart. There are many different sins that Christians must overcome. It's dangerous to start with a conclusion (No Christian will ever sin) and create a theology around it.

You keep saying that I need to stop being concerned with what other Christians are doing... how am I doing that? I'm NOT being concerned with what other Christians are doing... I am asking a valid question about what Christian beliefs should be according to the Bible. If this helps, replace "other Christians" with just me "Poohbear" in your mind. Just act as though I am talking about myself then, not other Christians. Geez.



Edited to add...

I wanted to add this quote from CaliiSwagg to reiterate the point I am trying to make:

Knowing that nobody is without sin, it seems unfair to be punished for something that one cannot help.

How do you or any other Christian feel about this statement? Doesn't it ring true if neither believers or non-believers are without sin according to the Word of God? Why would non-believers not go to heaven for their sin of unbelief just like the believers who commit the sins that God says not to do in the Bible?