Do you want to come off as being as good or better then white women?

[Robin41]

I don't really understand the question. I guess because I've never even heard anyone here say anything even remotely like they want to grow their hair long because white women have long hair or to show white people that we can grow long hair too. What? Uh, uh. Just no.

I haven't compared myself to white people since I was 6 years old. I don't compare myself to anyone here on this board. I only compare myself to me, not only about my hair, but about my life in general. I compare my progress now to where I was a year ago, two years ago, and go from there. Everyone is different and does things at a different pace. You'll go crazy trying to keep up with what anyone else is doing.

I'm not saying the OP is out of line with the question. I mean, if you really want to know, you ask, right? I just don't understand where it came from. Who spends so much time worrying about white people anyway?

 

[Serenity_Peace]

This is such a heavy topic that taps into deeply-embedded feelings. The perception of skin color and hair texture within the black community, and even within other cultures, have always been weighed against the Caucasian's phenotype, and their definition of what is "beautiful". This type of mentality has been passed down from generation to generation, throughout the world. Even though we are all now learning to love everyone's differences, it is still something that lurks silently throughout modern society. And this type of self-loathing takes a long time for a community to purge.

After years of slavery (and different caste/class oppression around the globe) for centuries, even though we are no longer in shackles or (born into castes), we are still enslaved mentally with these slave-master views, which is a powerful form of manipulation that still holds us captive.

My parents are Haitian. My mother told me that in Haiti, the lighter you are, the more access you have to the finer things: education, politics, social status, etc. The lighter people often try to marry into other lighter families, to keep the future generations light. If you are not light, then your other features dictate beauty. Feautures such as your hair texture, the width of one's nose or lips also have importance on beauty. Next would be whether you spoke fluent French, as opposed to the patois "Creole," and now we are making education distinctions, and are breaking down the classes. My step father, who raised me, was from Trinidad, which is even more mixed, and it is not much different there either.

My sister who was light-skinned, same as me, had a softer hair texture, thinner lips, and a straighter nose. When I was growing up, my biological father would always say that I was the smart one and she was the pretty one. Now that I am older, I am well-over those hurtful words, but I am well-aware of the very same mindset that many people still possess. People may not go out of their way to reduce us in such a vain manner in today's world, but it is still an underlying view and still present, but it is simply more hidden in our more polite society.

I think what is going on today, is that weaves have made it so much more accessible to cover up our "kinks and naps" and instantly have a more accepted appearance. For the black women who are a bit more introspective, such as women on the hair boards, they have taken the time to love what God has given them, and to further understand how to treat their hair well.

As for myself, I know that whites did not invent long hair. I am so happy, releived, liberated to know that if I follow a healthy regimen, my hair, 4b coarse hair, can grow long. And I can be a beautiful black women with long hair. Not a girl who is trying to be white, which is a very important point that effects our self-image. Sometimes, I get a bit irritated that we have to do so much more than other races to keep healthy hair. But I also know that every culture has a nuisance that is unique to their own race, so I shrug my shoulders and keep it moving.

So, to answer your question: No, I am not trying to be as good or better than white women. I am educated, beautiful, caring, funny, and so much more. If I competed with white women, I am not quite sure what exact prize we would be competing for: a beauty trophy? Also, white women are not even thinking about us. So why should we put so much thought into them? When I walk into a room, I feel confident and beautiful. And I have only had this healthy hair for about two years, and less than that if you are talking about my length, and my hair is barely APL. For most of my life, I have been a confident woman with short hair. And even with short hair, I never felt "less than" white women. I strive to have healthy long hair because it has always been that one thing that I thought was not very attainable. Now that it is more within my control, it has nothing to do with white women. For me, I view long hair as a way to further enhance my natural black beauty and it is also satisfying to represent black women in a positive, sexy and attractive light, and that is what I focus on.

Bravo! Very well-stated and honest!

 

[sugarose]

OMG! Tulips are my favorite too! love your siggy!!!

Me too!! Just beautiful!!

 

[sugarose]

[/b]
MY question is more about what is behind saying we can brake the myth about black women hair. that's all. I get the felling only a few people seem to know what I'm asking.

The hair on this board does break the popular opinion that "we" can't grow hair. All the weave checking, and traffic stopping stories makes that obvious.
I just don't think that most people here are constantly thinking about breaking the myth, and I don't think that's anyone's singular reason for wanting and growing longer hair.

 

[shynessqueen]

Thank y'all for answering or trying to answer the question.

 

[delecie]

...there's some white women who have trouble growing long hair like some black women. Long hair isn't exclusive to just one race of people.

...shynessqueen, the length that your hair grows is NOT determined by your skin color. It's all based on so many different factors: and to name a few.... 1) how well you take care of your hair in order to retain the hair length that you grow, 2) proper diet, and 3) genetics...and not all blacks within the black race have the same hair growth genes and not all whites within the white race have the same growth genes...that's a BIG misconception so many people have.

shynessqueen if you're interested, I thought you might like to read why some people of other races want to grow their hair long:
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=54720

 

[tld723]

shynessqueen if you're interested, I thought you might like to read why some people of other races want to grow their hair long:
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=54720

It's kind of funny that there is a girl in that link with type one hair who used to put a stocking on her head as a child to pretend her hair was longer....hmmmm

 

[delecie]

It's kind of funny that there is a girl in that link with type one hair who used to put a stocking on her head as a child to pretend her hair was longer....hmmmm

I think it's always interesting to discover similarities among the races. Sometimes we actually have more similarities than differences.

 

[Ayeshia]

ive seen folks of all races with some jacked up hair...even one ethiopian girl who used to go to my school. so i dont model my hair after someone else. a lot of people besides "us" can have problem hair if its not taken care of.

 

[Lady Esquire]

Thank y'all for answering or trying to answer the question.

To further answer the question that you posed, I think that the majority of black women, young and old have been misinformed. Many of us never really knew anything about our hair. Learning about frequent washes, moisturizers, proteins, deep conditioning, protective styles, and retaining ends....ALL OF THIS IS STILL UNKNOWN to many black women. Many black women do not view new growth and newly grown hair. Instead they view it as previously relaxed hair that has turned.

So many of us who have come to the hair boards, or have read the healthy hair books, are reeducating ourselves about a topic that has never really been taught to us in a formal manner. So we are not trying to be as good or better than whites, but we are simply celebrating this newfound knowledge. We are merely taking pride in the hair that we always viewed as deficient. Even for the black women who already had long hair, they too are discovering techniques to make their hair thicker or more manageable. Or for those blacks that were dependent on a hair stylist, they find a sense of self-empowerment when they learn ways to take care of their hair on their own.

So, to honestly try to answer your question, I think we are trying to acheive the best hair that we can possibly acheive as women. We congregate here as black women because we can relate to one another's problems, setbacks, textures, experiences, and so on. White women have their own resources and I doubt it has anything to do with us.

We are not trying to be better than them, we are trying to better than we were before...better than ourselves. The myth that blacks cannot grow hair is more prevalent among our own community. So we, as black women, are working against our own self perception. White women know nothing about our hair texture. I do not think whites even give us a second thought, when it comes to hair. They have no clue that we go thru what we go thru. I would not be surprised if they may snub their noses at us regardless, but that is a whole other issue. Maybe they may feel superior when they see a black woman with broken ends and busted up damaged hair. But we cannot be concerned with them until we get our own house in order. So this quest for healthy long hair is about us. Every culture celebrates long hair, so now more black women are figuring out how to achieve that. Again, this is not about them. It is about us.

 

[shynessqueen]

To further answer the question that you posed, I think that the majority of black women, young and old have been misinformed. Many of us never really knew anything about our hair. Learning about frequent washes, moisturizers, proteins, deep conditioning, protective styles, and retaining ends....ALL OF THIS IS STILL UNKNOWN to many black women. Many black women do not view new growth and newly grown hair. Instead they view it as previously relaxed hair that has turned.

So many of us who have come to the hair boards, or have read the healthy hair books, are reeducating ourselves about a topic that has never really been taught to us in a formal manner. So we are not trying to be as good or better than whites, but we are simply celebrating this newfound knowledge. We are merely taking pride in the hair that we always viewed as deficient. Even for the black women who already had long hair, they too are discovering techniques to make their hair thicker or more manageable. Or for those blacks that were dependent on a hair stylist, they find a sense of self-empowerment when they learn ways to take care of their hair on their own.

So, to honestly try to answer your question, I think we are trying to acheive the best hair that we can possibly acheive as women. We congregate here as black women because we can relate to one another's problems, setbacks, textures, experiences, and so on. White women have their own resources and I doubt it has anything to do with us.

We are not trying to be better than them, we are trying to better than we were before...better than ourselves. The myth that blacks cannot grow hair is being more prevalent among our own community. So we are working against our own self perception. White women know nothing about our hair texture. Maybe they may feel superior when they see a black woman with broken ends and busted up hair. But we cannot be concerned with them until we get our own house in order. So this is about us.

ITA with you. But I'm also starting to realize that breaking the myth doesnt have the same meaning for everyone. I think i really should have though about how to ask this question and worded it better.

 

[LocksOfLuV]

It's kind of funny that there is a girl in that link with type one hair who used to put a stocking on her head as a child to pretend her hair was longer....hmmmm

I also find it weird that a lot of them want long hair to AVOID going to a stylist.

 

[glamazon386]

I know that you are simply sharing your experience, but sometimes you have to ask whether the long haired girls felt superior or whether you felt inferior. Those are two different questions. No one can have a one up on you unless you give it to them (at least not in this context).

It wasn't a matter me feeling inferior it was them purposely trying to make me feel that way. I mean I don't think they have a one up on me. They're the ones who were acting like they had a one up on me. I know my hair is on point all the time. And my weaves look DAMN good. You didn't hear some of the mean ignorant comments that came out of people's mouths. Sometimes my mother makes rude comments. I still hear them all the time. I mean why else do you think people are always trying to figure out if so and so's hair is real or whatever? I mean is it really that serious? Does knowing somebody elses hair is fake help you gain anything? That has to do with them and their issues.

I remember sitting in class one day and there were these two girls behind me who spent the whole class period trying to figure out if my hair (which was weave) was real or not. I don't see what the big deal is. If it looks nice, it looks nice. For some reason some people feel like calling people with weaves out takes something away from that person. Lik3 well I have hair but mines is better than hers because hers is fake. And that's the feeling I got from those girls in that particular situation as well as many others.

 

[nikkivale]

Maybe this topic should really have a different title, it's worded kinda funky.
But however I guess i can answer and I don't care about answering in a way that may sound right

From my experience I always accepted that black women's hair just couldn't grow long only ppl w/ 'a good grade of hair' as my mom puts it.
So I would invest in hair weaves and all that stuff because I just kind of gave up and figured it would be the only way to acheive it. But it just got annoying and when i went to college I saw all kinds of black girls with long hair no matter what the type and it really changed my perception. Then i figured black women's hair can be just as long as other races but with our hair we have to totally change our perceptions and old methods of hair care. We have the most fragile hair but yet we do Everything to it to harm it, i guess it because many like me have believed it wont grow anyways so might as well have it looking good.
I'm really thankful for LHCF and i don't want my hair to grow long to prove anything to anybody, I just like long hair and figure I can have it too.

 

[shynessqueen]

It wasn't a matter me feeling inferior it was them purposely trying to make me feel that way. I mean I don't think they have a one up on me. They're the ones who were acting like they had a one up on me. I know my hair is on point all the time. And my weaves look DAMN good. You didn't hear some of the mean ignorant comments that came out of people's mouths. Sometimes my mother makes rude comments. I still hear them all the time. I mean why else do you think people are always trying to figure out if so and so's hair is real or whatever? I mean is it really that serious? Does knowing somebody elses hair is fake help you gain anything? That has to do with them and their issues.

I remember sitting in class one day and there were these two girls behind me who spent the whole class period trying to figure out if my hair (which was weave) was real or not. I don't see what the big deal is. If it looks nice, it looks nice. For some reason some people feel like calling people with weaves out takes something away from that person. Lik3 well I have hair but mines is better than hers because hers is fake. And that's the feeling I got from those girls in that particular situation as well as many others.

Bmore if someone is not dark skin and been through what you and I have been through and still going through they won't understand. Trying to help some understand is a wast of time. I know what you are saying in the bold. If you feel good about you skin tone and how you look as a dark skin women, they look at you like you don't know your place and how dare you even think you are on the same level as them. After that they will come after you to TRY and break you down and put you back to what they and society say is your place. In order to talk about issues like this you have to talk to people who are willing to put themselves in your shoes and Most won't because it brakes the "we are all the same" world most live in. I wish we where all treated the same but we are not. It's a proven fact but most won't talk about it. If it not something that ALL of us has to go through then it's not important. IMHO


Didn't i tell you we were going to stay away from this

 

[Whimsy]

I thought about this from one of hannagirl thread. I know most of us just want long healthy hair for ourselves but do you want to come a cross as equal or better then white women? Is saying see our hair can grow that long too, is saying I"m equal when it comes to hair.
If you do want to be equal or better then white women, is it bad to think that way. I want long hair because i want to see how long i can grow my hair but i also want to stand out. Some of y'all know how i feel about dark skin women with long hair. I'm just being honest.
No I have not been drinking. lol.
I just really want to know so please don't run to the mods about my thread. Thank you plove

Personally, I'm not thinking about any white chick when I'm DCing my hair or hunting for splits or whatever. I'm thinking about my hair swanging, being healthy and looking cute.

 

[CurliDiva]

I don't think that most LHCFers are trying to compare with "white" women per se, BUT when we read that we want to grow our hair out to stand out from the crowd (my assuming that "the crowd" is other black women) - this implies to ME that LONG hair is still not the NORM in the black community.

Yes - I know some had hair down to their butts as kids! Yes - I know that most LHCFers wants healthy, not just long hair!

If you don't limit the "crowd" to black women only (which I woulndn't) than having long hair will make you stand out among all women - black, white or green.

 

[Dijah]

I did not think of white girls when I decided to grow my hair. My inspirations are the women on this forum. Also I found out that I had long hair as a child (I was adopted and my mother did not handle my hair properly), and I want to personally see my hair long and healthy again.

 

[glamazon386]

Bmore if someone is not dark skin and been through what you and I have been through and still going through they won't understand. Trying to help some understand is a wast of time. I know what you are saying in the bold. If you feel good about you skin tone and how you look as a dark skin women, they look at you like you don't know your place and how dare you even think you are on the same level as them. After that they will come after you to TRY and break you down and put you back to what they and society say is your place. In order to talk about issues like this you have to talk to people who are willing to put themselves in your shoes and Most won't because it brakes the "we are all the same" world most live in. I wish we where all treated the same but we are not. It's a proven fact but most won't talk about it. If it not something that ALL of us has to go through then it's not important. IMHO


Didn't i tell you we were going to stay away from this

LOL You're right. And those are the same chicks who are wondering why their men are all in my face all day everyday. So forget them. People just want to continue to live in a bubble and act like we're all the same. When it's just a front. Nobody really believes that crap.

 

[Aveena]

Many people on this board talk about breaking the myth that black women can't grow hair by proving that with proper maintenance and care it can be done. I don’t think it has to do with being as good or better than white women. But, there IS no doubt that having a lush head of hair is something to be proud of among white and black woman AND white and black men for that matter (especially for me) because when I get there I will know how much effort and hard work was put in to get to that point.

 

[chica_canella]

Yeah I know that and you know that but there's a lot of ignorant people out there (especially some men) who still haven't figured it out. And I mean why do I have to be exotic to be pretty? Why can't I just be a pretty black girl. But that leads to a whole other convo so I'll just leave it at that. This reminds me of the episode of Girlfriends where Toni didn't wanna date the black millionaire because he was too dark though. And then she broke down the whole thing to Joan at the end of the episode about having to do extra things to compete. It's the same thing. Maybe it's not a big deal to people who haven't had that experience, but it is to me because I know first hand. I guess you can't fault people if they truly don't know.

Til this day, people still won't catch me slipping. But being glammed up has always been a part of who I am from a kid. I liked being dressed up even as a little girl. My mother is this way too for other reasons. Maybe she just passed it on. People know me as being that way like it's a part of my personality or something. I do it for me because it makes me feel good. It's just hard not to relapse or be offended when people make ignorant statements.

Shyness- lol alright we won't take it in that direction. But I see that we're on the same page.

I'm sorry but I meant that you are just pretty. like Beyonce is just pretty or tamia is pretty. you are kind of a stacy dash pretty. i didn't mean exotic as it is very foreign to see a pretty dark skin women but just taking your features all together, they look exotic. like when you see a brown skin girl with blonde hair, full lips, slanted almond shaped, green eyes. Now all together that is exotic but it may also be pretty to see the combination of features that you wouldn't think would go together but mesh well.

and that's good that you always stay on point because Lord knows I can only try. I don't see how you do it, errrrday.

 

[chica_canella]

meanwhile my darkskinded butt is sittin up here in class lookin like a straight up homeless personOh well. I'm too lazy to care.

But to answer the post I admit I do want to grow my hair to prove black women are capable of growing it just like everyone else but as far as I'm concerned I never felt the need to try to come off as better than white women cause black women are better. Look at the siggy pics on this board. JMO

side note: somehow a 3rd of the people in my admin law class ended up being black females and we are all fly. the yt girls... not so much

you hot cause your fly, they ain't cause they not.

 

[glamazon386]

you hot cause your fly, they ain't cause they not.

 

[glamazon386]

I'm sorry but I meant that you are just pretty. like Beyonce is just pretty or tamia is pretty. you are kind of a stacy dash pretty. i didn't mean exotic as it is very foreign to see a pretty dark skin women but just taking your features all together, they look exotic. like when you see a brown skin girl with blonde hair, full lips, slanted almond shaped, green eyes. Now all together that is exotic but it may also be pretty to see the combination of features that you wouldn't think would go together but mesh well.

and that's good that you always stay on point because Lord knows I can only try. I don't see how you do it, errrrday.

It's funny bc I get that all day everyday and I don't see it myself. It's just the combination of the features, complexion and hair. I really think that's the only reason men are attracted to me. I attract a lot of African men and men from the Islands. My looks have changed a bit in the past few years and at some point I went from regular to exotic. When I was a child people complained about how black and nappy headed I was. Oh my how things change...

 

[ClassicBeauty]

Bmore if someone is not dark skin and been through what you and I have been through and still going through they won't understand. Trying to help some understand is a wast of time. I know what you are saying in the bold. If you feel good about you skin tone and how you look as a dark skin women, they look at you like you don't know your place and how dare you even think you are on the same level as them. After that they will come after you to TRY and break you down and put you back to what they and society say is your place. In order to talk about issues like this you have to talk to people who are willing to put themselves in your shoes and Most won't because it brakes the "we are all the same" world most live in. I wish we where all treated the same but we are not. It's a proven fact but most won't talk about it. If it not something that ALL of us has to go through then it's not important. IMHO

Didn't i tell you we were going to stay away from this

If I'm one of the people that you feel are insensitive to your situation, I really apologize. I have tried to put myself in the other situation, and I know that society is harder on darker people. It's that way in a lot of cultures, but in ours it's really bad. I guess that I just try to make people see that I don't feel that way and as long as you don't feel that way then nothing else should really matter.

My best girlfriend/sorority sister has dark skin and we used to go round and round about this subject. She never experienced all the issues until she got to the south for college. We both took the time to see each other's views and understand the different perspectives and we both grew a lot from it. She had thick, healthy, long hair so hair wasn't really a subject, but the skin issues grew very deep.

The point I made about superiority/inferiority was just about making sure that you don't buy into the hype. I believe that there can be no superiority without inferiority. I hear people say things all the time about different people...she thinks she's better, smarter, prettier, thinner, etc. I think we all have to at least take the time to really look inside and see if "she" thinks it or if "we" think it. In bmoreflygirl's case, maybe "they" did think it and try to put her down, but many times that is not the case. Becasue the beauty/media industry and most of the rest of the globe says that black is not beautiful, many black people have bought into it and they believe that they are inferior to other complexions. That sense of inferiority makes some people really sensitive and jealous. I spent so much of my younger years trying to prove to darker people that I did not think that I was better. That I was one of the "good" light skinned people (I am honestly serious about that). It all grew very tiresome.

I know I'm rambling but please understand that just because a person is not dark with short hair does not mean that they don't understand what you are going through. I just want you to rise above it and not let it hurt you. Make sure you're not giving them the power to hurt you.

 

[Poohbear]

If I'm one of the people that you feel are insensitive to your situation, I really apologize. I have tried to put myself in the other situation, and I know that society is harder on darker people. It's that way in a lot of cultures, but in ours it's really bad. I guess that I just try to make people see that I don't feel that way and as long as you don't feel that way then nothing else should really matter.

My best girlfriend/sorority sister has dark skin and we used to go round and round about this subject. She never experienced all the issues until she got to the south for college. We both took the time to see each other's views and understand the different perspectives and we both grew a lot from it. She had thick, healthy, long hair so hair wasn't really a subject, but the skin issues grew very deep.

The point I made about superiority/inferiority was just about making sure that you don't buy into the hype. I believe that there can be no superiority without inferiority. I hear people say things all the time about different people...she thinks she's better, smarter, prettier, thinner, etc. I think we all have to at least take the time to really look inside and see if "she" thinks it or if "we" think it. In bmoreflygirl's case, maybe "they" did think it and try to put her down, but many times that is not the case. Becasue the beauty/media industry and most of the rest of the globe says that black is not beautiful, many black people have bought into it and they believe that they are inferior to other complexions. That sense of inferiority makes some people really sensitive and jealous. I spent so much of my younger years trying to prove to darker people that I did not think that I was better. That I was one of the "good" light skinned people (I am honestly serious about that). It all grew very tiresome.

I know I'm rambling but please understand that just because a person is not dark with short hair does not mean that they don't understand what you are going through. I just want you to rise above it and not let it hurt you. Make sure you're not giving them the power to hurt you.

So true!!!

 

[sugarose]

I spent so much of my younger years trying to prove to darker people that I did not think that I was better. That I was one of the "good" light skinned people (I am honestly serious about that). It all grew very tiresome.

Yes it does. I've always had to "prove" myself to darker people that I didn't look down on them, that I didn't think I was better, prettier, and on and on. Finally I realized that the problem was never mine, these people were doing that same thing they accused me of doing. Treating me bad just because they assumed they knew what I was about based on my skin color. Now I can care less, and I'm definitely not wasting my time trying to prove it to anyone else.

 

[glamazon386]

The point I made about superiority/inferiority was just about making sure that you don't buy into the hype. I believe that there can be no superiority without inferiority. I hear people say things all the time about different people...she thinks she's better, smarter, prettier, thinner, etc. I think we all have to at least take the time to really look inside and see if "she" thinks it or if "we" think it.

This is very true. They're usually the ones that think it.

 

[kally]

All's I know is, I want long ,BSL, thick, healthy hair that is easy to care for. I do not want to go around thinking I am better then anyone. I want the hair for myself, regardless of my race.

 

[shynessqueen]

If I'm one of the people that you feel are insensitive to your situation, I really apologize. I have tried to put myself in the other situation, and I know that society is harder on darker people. It's that way in a lot of cultures, but in ours it's really bad. I guess that I just try to make people see that I don't feel that way and as long as you don't feel that way then nothing else should really matter.

My best girlfriend/sorority sister has dark skin and we used to go round and round about this subject. She never experienced all the issues until she got to the south for college. We both took the time to see each other's views and understand the different perspectives and we both grew a lot from it. She had thick, healthy, long hair so hair wasn't really a subject, but the skin issues grew very deep.

The point I made about superiority/inferiority was just about making sure that you don't buy into the hype. I believe that there can be no superiority without inferiority. I hear people say things all the time about different people...she thinks she's better, smarter, prettier, thinner, etc. I think we all have to at least take the time to really look inside and see if "she" thinks it or if "we" think it. In bmoreflygirl's case, maybe "they" did think it and try to put her down, but many times that is not the case. Becasue the beauty/media industry and most of the rest of the globe says that black is not beautiful, many black people have bought into it and they believe that they are inferior to other complexions. That sense of inferiority makes some people really sensitive and jealous. I spent so much of my younger years trying to prove to darker people that I did not think that I was better. That I was one of the "good" light skinned people (I am honestly serious about that). It all grew very tiresome.

I know I'm rambling but please understand that just because a person is not dark with short hair does not mean that they don't understand what you are going through. I just want you to rise above it and not let it hurt you. Make sure you're not giving them the power to hurt you.[/quote]



Thank you for your post and i wasn't talking about you. I really don't want to get in to this subject because I find it point less. The post about it in this thread proves it to me. The old thread i made proves it to me. It always go back to the samething. You and no one else should have to prove to dark skin women that your one of the nice light skin women.
I love my self and everything about me. It's other people who have a problem with the love i have for my self. That's what it all boils down to for me. Belive me it doesn't hurt me it's really funny to me.