CHURCH CELEBRITY SCANDALS - who do we believe?

[taytay86]

Ladies,

After hearing the scandal with Juanita Bynum and her husband, and the slackness she was 'gwanin' with (putting her personal life on blast for publicity reasons it seems) should those who love her ministry continue to follow her? What example is she setting?

Donnie McClurken admitted he was once gay, but repented and was healed by God. Do you still listen to his music?

Creflo Dollar - his church "gave" him a Rolls Royce and collected 69 million... Would you continue to bring offering to his church?

Tonnex puts out a song with countless vulgarities and volient lyrics, and then later apologizes for it.

I feel that it's very important for us to be careful of who we chose to listen to, follow examples of etc. It seems like many people are in the church now, because it's "cool" and not because they are truly saved and want to contribute to God's Kingdom.

I understand that we are all human, and fall short of the Glory of God.
I know the bible warns us of fakes in the last days, but I also know Satan will try to destroy any flourishing ministry -- should we avoid hearing their teachings and music? Is there any harm if we choose not to?

Just looking for opinions.

 

[delp]

I try not to follow people. I have been in the word of faith ministries for awhile. I listen to certain messages but I don't go to big conventions, follow people from state to state,etc... I remember hearing a minister advising someone to read his book about how to talk to God over reading the Bible. He told the person to read his book first,.... I was like how about talking to the lord and seeking his face until you hear from him on your own and find out what works for you. I like some of Donnie McClurken's songs. I try not to judge because these are the people who came out and spoke openly about their situation... who knows what goes on in private. In Georgia we just had a big time minister that just got caught: child molestation charges, sleeping with brothers wife, sleeping with choir director,.... everything sexual sin you can think of..... I was like Wow. I am talking Jerry Springer stuff like you uncle is now your father stuff. I just try to get the word that apply to my life and let God judge.

 

[Rapunzel*]

i agree we have to be mindful in what we come in contact with and observe whats holy and not holy

like my dad has said before
everyone is a christian now because its a thing to do, but when he grew up they would look at a Christian as a peculiar person they were a outcast and so different from others(1980's)

 

[firecracker]

Celebrities are people and people should not be worshipped anyways.

 

[taytay86]

Celebrities are people and people should not be worshipped anyways.

Please don't misquote what I said - I never said anything about worshipping these people. They are leaders in the Christian communities - You don't worship gospel artist, or your pastor do you? You hear their teaching or testimony and apply the learnings do your own life.

My arguement is, as anointing as these people/or their music is it safe to continue to follow (not physically) their teachings?

 

[discobiscuits]

should we continue to look up to these church celebrities?

Just looking for opinions.

imo, no one should have been looking up to them in the 1st place since these "church celebrities" should have been at all times pointing people to took toward god, not them. to continue to look up to them of course would be improper.

i thank god every time i think about stuff going on in the christian world that our pastor taught us very well in the word and how to recognize a false prophet and/or errror in the church. weare able to test the spirits because our pastor taught us correctly and taught us well.

 

[taytay86]

imo, no one should have been looking up to them in the 1st place since these "church celebrities" should have been at all times pointing people to took toward god, not them. to continue to look up to them of course would be improper.

i thank god every time i think about stuff going on in the christian world that our pastor taught us very well in the word and how to recognize a false prophet and/or errror in the church. weare able to test the spirits because our pastor taught us correctly and taught us well.

Again, not "looking upto" in the sense of worship. However, what if it was your pastor who taught you all you know turned out to be gay, or beat his wife. Would you find another church, or pray him up?

 

[Keen]

Regarding Donnie McClurken, if the guy say he repented, he repented. The lord knows his heart.

 

[PaperClip]

Please don't misquote what I said - I never said anything about worshipping these people. They are leaders in the Christian communities - You don't worship gospel artist, or your pastor do you? You hear their teaching or testimony and apply the learnings do your own life.

My arguement is, as anointing as these people/or their music is it safe to continue to follow (not physically) their teachings?

We pay taxes to a corrupt Bush administration who misdirects funds for an unjust/illegal "war".

We re-elect officials who have been caught on videotape for smocking COCAINE.

So what's the core sentiment(s) of the OP's inquiry/ies?

That we avoid exposure to people/situations re. the "sins" we know about?

That we base our CHOICES to participate re. the "sins" we know about?

Last time I looked, nobody has a gun to his or her head FORCING them to listen to anybody's so-called teachings, unless there's some "spiritual seduction" going on....

In any situation, be it religious or secular, let's put responsibility and accountability in its proper place: WITH THE INDIVIDUAL MAKING THE CHOICES.

And I'm talking about so-called everyday folk who have sound minds, etc., not the infirmed, vulnerable. etc.

And back to the point about giving tithes and offerings to a church...ANY CHURCH.... that's all FREE WILL. The government doesn't even TRUST YOU to pay your taxes WILLINGLY. The government HIJACKS that money before you get your check! How about that?!??!

Two more points:

1. King David (from the Bible) was known as a man after God's own heart. This is the SAME MAN who wrote many of the Psalms. He was also an adulterer, murderer, etc. Are you gonna stop reciting Psalm 23? I didn't think so. (Ooooh!!! That's a good place to praise Him! )

AND, what made David so close to the Lord, because DAVID REPENTED! HE took his junky self straight to the Father and said, I'm sorry Lord, please forgive me. And we ALL have to answer to the Lord for what we do, right and wrong.

Donnie M., Juanita, Creflo, Tonex, and everybody else has to answer to the LORD for what they say and do.

Now as far as listening to their music and giving offerings and whatnot. That's why we have the HOLY SPIRIT, who is our comfort, guide, and spirit of TRUTH. St. John 16:13 says "Howbeit when he, the spirit of truth is come, he will guide you into all truth; for he shall not speak of himself, but whatever he shall hear, that shall he speak, and he will show you things to come."

In other words, whomever comes in the name of the Lord Jesus, it should agree with the HOLY SPIRIT inside you. I don't care if they are the biggest Christian on the planet. If their stuff doesn't agree with the Holy Spirit inside you, then seek the Lord for direction to know which way to go and how to do. The Holy Spirit will not misguide you.

Now it is STUPID (yeah, I had to go there) to sit under a pastor and you don't TRUST that pastor to do right by the Word of God and the people's tithes and offerings. So that's on the individual. That's not on Creflo and the like. It's not even on the Lord and it's not even on the devil. That's on YOU.

Proverbs 3:5-6: "Trust in the Lord with all thine heart and lean not to thy own understanding. In ALL THY WAYS ACKNOWLEDGE HIM, and he will direct thy paths."

I'm done.

 

[firecracker]

Please don't misquote what I said - I never said anything about worshipping these people. They are leaders in the Christian communities - You don't worship gospel artist, or your pastor do you? You hear their teaching or testimony and apply the learnings do your own life.

My arguement is, as anointing as these people/or their music is it safe to continue to follow (not physically) their teachings?

I never quoted you. I simply made a statement to what you posted. I don't worship humans period so please no assumptions.

Thanks RR!

 

[taytay86]

We pay taxes to a corrupt Bush administration who misdirects funds for an unjust/illegal "war".

We re-elect officials who have been caught on videotape for smocking COCAINE.

So what's the core sentiment(s) of the OP's inquiry/ies?

That we avoid exposure to people/situations re. the "sins" we know about?

That we base our CHOICES to participate re. the "sins" we know about?

Last time I looked, nobody has a gun to his or her head FORCING them to listen to anybody's so-called teachings, unless there's some "spiritual seduction" going on....

In any situation, be it religious or secular, let's put responsibility and accountability in its proper place: WITH THE INDIVIDUAL MAKING THE CHOICES.

And I'm talking about so-called everyday folk who have sound minds, etc., not the infirmed, vulnerable. etc.

And back to the point about giving tithes and offerings to a church...ANY CHURCH.... that's all FREE WILL. The government doesn't even TRUST YOU to pay your taxes WILLINGLY. The government HIJACKS that money before you get your check! How about that?!??!

Two more points:

1. King David (from the Bible) was known as a man after God's own heart. This is the SAME MAN who wrote many of the Psalms. He was also an adulterer, murderer, etc. Are you gonna stop reciting Psalm 23? I didn't think so. (Ooooh!!! That's a good place to praise Him! )

AND, what made David so close to the Lord, because DAVID REPENTED! HE took his junky self straight to the Father and said, I'm sorry Lord, please forgive me. And we ALL have to answer to the Lord for what we do, right and wrong.

Donnie M., Juanita, Creflo, Tonex, and everybody else has to answer to the LORD for what they say and do.

Now as far as listening to their music and giving offerings and whatnot. That's why we have the HOLY SPIRIT, who is our comfort, guide, and spirit of TRUTH. St. John 16:13 says "Howbeit when he, the spirit of truth is come, he will guide you into all truth; for he shall not speak of himself, but whatever he shall hear, that shall he speak, and he will show you things to come."

In other words, whomever comes in the name of the Lord Jesus, it should agree with the HOLY SPIRIT inside you. I don't care if they are the biggest Christian on the planet. If their stuff doesn't agree with the Holy Spirit inside you, then seek the Lord for direction to know which way to go and how to do. The Holy Spirit will not misguide you.

Now it is STUPID (yeah, I had to go there) to sit under a pastor and you don't TRUST that pastor to do right by the Word of God and the people's tithes and offerings. So that's on the individual. That's not on Creflo and the like. It's not even on the Lord and it's not even on the devil. That's on YOU.

Proverbs 3:5-6: "Trust in the Lord with all thine heart and lean not to thy own understanding. In ALL THY WAYS ACKNOWLEDGE HIM, and he will direct thy paths."

I'm done.

Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[Blossssom]

I say stay away from all of them. Even the very elect is falling for these mad men of the devil. Using the church to profit. It wouldn't surprise me if any of them even believe in God and if they do, they believe his word is a lie.

 

[meka]

I dont think Donnie McClurkin said he was gay, he said he had homosexual tendencies as a result of being molested by male relatives from such a young age. God delivered him from that.

Ladies,

After hearing the scandal with Juanita Bynum and her husband, and the slackness she was 'gwanin' with (putting her personal life on blast for publicity reasons it seems) should those who love her ministry continue to follow her? What example is she setting?

Donnie McClurken admitted he was once gay, but repented and was healed by God. Do you still listen to his music?

Creflo Dollar - his church "gave" him a Rolls Royce and collected 69 million... Would you continue to bring offering to his church?

Tonnex puts out a song with countless vulgarities and volient lyrics, and then later apologizes for it.

I feel that it's very important for us to be careful of who we chose to listen to, follow examples of etc. It seems like many people are in the church now, because it's "cool" and not because they are truly saved and want to contribute to God's Kingdom.

I understand that we are all human, and fall short of the Glory of God.
I know the bible warns us of fakes in the last days, but I also know Satan will try to destroy any flourishing ministry -- should we avoid hearing their teachings and music? Is there any harm if we choose not to?

Just looking for opinions.

 

[Blossssom]

Great post, RR!

 

[juju]

Some of these pastors makes alot of money off their church members,a few weeks ago Benny Hinn was in our city to preach and all he was asking was more , and more money before the lord can bless he said erplexed.

 

[taytay86]

Some of these pastors makes alot of money off their church members,a few weeks ago Benny Hinn was in our city to preach and all he was asking was more , and more money before the lord can bless he said erplexed.

I heard of this same issue, and I'm disgusted by it. There are a lot of money grabing preachers out there and it's just sad to say the least. We have to be so careful where we give our money to. I'm almost afraid to even support these people by buying their books, CDs etc.

Gosh - the enemy is trying hard isn't he?!

 

[Highly Favored8]

I heard of this same issue, and I'm disgusted by it. There are a lot of money grabing preachers out there and it's just sad to say the least. We have to be so careful where we give our money to. I'm almost afraid to even support these people by buying their books, CDs etc.

Gosh - the enemy is trying hard isn't he?!

Amen look at what we are going through on a world scale! Some preachers are money hungry!

 

[taytay86]

My primary concern is with women/men of such influence in "ministry" and how their growing lack of credibility negatively impacts the lives of Christians who follow them. It's embarrassing.

 

[discobiscuits]

Again, not "looking upto" in the sense of worship. However, what if it was your pastor who taught you all you know turned out to be gay, or beat his wife. Would you find another church, or pray him up?

when i said not look up to i meant exactly that -look up to - not worship.

my pastor has done some things that i'm not cool with (no, he is not gay nor an abuser) and i am doing both - looking for a new church home and praying him up. and that is y i am happy he taught us well, otherwise i (and several thousand other members) would never have known better.

 

[discobiscuits]

We pay taxes to a corrupt Bush administration who misdirects funds for an unjust/illegal "war".

Correction: we pay taxes to our government "Caesar" (a.k.a. the gub-ment) and not the president (but hey, if you wanna take the caesar scripture literally then the bible tells you to pay the corrupt Bush admin what is due them, just like you will pay the non-corrupt Obama admin if they get in office).

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Mt 22:2
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's. [/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Mr 12:17
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]And Jesus answering said unto them, render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him. [/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Lu 20:25
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]And he said unto them, render therefore unto Caesar the things which be Caesar's, and unto God the things which be God's.[/FONT]

We re-elect officials who have been caught on videotape for smocking COCAINE. (he didn't inhale LOL )

Or want to elect ones that admit to drug use (read: "Dreams From My Father: A Story of Race and Inheritance") and who get donations from and attend parties thrown by a woman who also admits to trying coke and allegedly denounces jesus as the only way to god. [NOT Obama bashing - I am showing that two black politicians -popular ones- are guilty of drug use and that she w/o sin cast the 1st stone]



So what's the core sentiment(s) of the OP's inquiry/ies?

That once we know the character of a "christian celebrity", should we continue to "support" that person/ministy (i.e. send tithes, buy books/music/etc., go to concerts, attend services/functions highlighting them...)

That we avoid exposure to people/situations re. the "sins" we know about?
Possibly, if it can cause us or others to fall or fail.

That we base our CHOICES to participate re. the "sins" we know about?
We are all sinners, only some of us have had our sins put in the public eye and once we know what they are, we decide to accept that person, sins and all or reject them. We also have to guard our hearts and if some one is still openly practicing in sin then we should not participate with them. This includes supporting them by buying their books/records/etc.

Last time I looked, nobody has a gun to his or her head FORCING them to listen to anybody's so-called teachings, unless there's some "spiritual seduction" going on....
Agreed. And that is exactly what a lot of these christian leaders are doing, spiritual seduction as you call it.

In any situation, be it religious or secular, let's put responsibility and accountability in its proper place: WITH THE INDIVIDUAL MAKING THE CHOICES.
Agreed....in addition to holding those who pimp the cross accountable for their leading people in the wrong direction. Just because the individual makes the choice, if they are beguiled (like Eve) or lied to, or uninformed or a "baby" christian, they can only be responsible for only so much in their decision making.

And I'm talking about so-called everyday folk who have sound minds, etc., not the infirmed, vulnerable. etc.

And back to the point about giving tithes and offerings to a church...ANY CHURCH.... that's all FREE WILL. The government doesn't even TRUST YOU to pay your taxes WILLINGLY. The government HIJACKS that money before you get your check! How about that?!??!
According to a post you did a while back, it is not free will, it is an obligation that a christian must do, just like paying taxes. (or at least i think it was jesus who said we have to render to Caesar.....you know the rest).

Two more points:

1. King David (from the Bible) was known as a man after God's own heart. This is the SAME MAN who wrote many of the Psalms. He was also an adulterer, murderer, etc. Are you gonna stop reciting Psalm 23? I didn't think so. (Ooooh!!! That's a good place to praise Him! )

David repented. He also lost his son as a result of his sin. I don't see Juanita repenting or selling her $5000.00 pen to give to the poor. Oh, and has she paid the taxes on that home yet? Does it really take multiple thousands of dollars for a "threshing floor"? But that "No More Sheets" stuff (i've never read/seen) has seemingly "saved" many a young lady from becoming promiscuous or so I've heard/read, so I guess we can compare Juanita to David in a lesser sense...let's just pray she gets it together soon and stops her mess.

AND, what made David so close to the Lord, because DAVID REPENTED! HE took his junky self straight to the Father and said, I'm sorry Lord, please forgive me. And we ALL have to answer to the Lord for what we do, right and wrong.
Actually, David was called a man after god's heart BEFORE he became king and then became a murderer and sinner. What made him close to god was his total love of and trust in god, not his repentance. He repented because of that love and closeness because he realized he lost that closeness; relationship with the commission of his sins.

Donnie M., Juanita, Creflo, Tonex, and everybody else has to answer to the LORD for what they say and do.
Ain't seen none of them repent yet.

Now as far as listening to their music and giving offerings and whatnot. That's why we have the HOLY SPIRIT, who is our comfort, guide, and spirit of TRUTH. St. John 16:13 says "Howbeit when he, the spirit of truth is come, he will guide you into all truth; for he shall not speak of himself, but whatever he shall hear, that shall he speak, and he will show you things to come."
Not everyone is born of or filled with His spirit. Not everyone has been baptized in his spirit. Not everyone knows how to listen to or hear from the spirit.

In other words, whomever comes in the name of the Lord Jesus, it should agree with the HOLY SPIRIT inside you. I don't care if they are the biggest Christian on the planet. If their stuff doesn't agree with the Holy Spirit inside you, then seek the Lord for direction to know which way to go and how to do. The Holy Spirit will not misguide you.
Whomever comes in the name of Jesus should be tested.

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1 John 4:1-3[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica] 1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.[/FONT]

Now it is STUPID (yeah, I had to go there) to sit under a pastor and you don't TRUST that pastor to do right by the Word of God and the people's tithes and offerings. So that's on the individual. That's not on Creflo and the like. It's not even on the Lord and it's not even on the devil. That's on YOU.

Proverbs 3:5-6: "Trust in the Lord with all thine heart and lean not to thy own understanding. In ALL THY WAYS ACKNOWLEDGE HIM, and he will direct thy paths."

I'm done.

10 char rule

 

[discobiscuits]

should we avoid hearing their teachings and music? Is there any harm if we choose not to?

Just looking for opinions.

I see an edit....

IMO: if an individual discovers that there is corruption or sin in a Christian ministry/minister then that person should avoid the minister and the ministry and the teachings.

As for music, IMO if the music is still leading people to Jesus and souls being saved, then I do not see any harm. Particularly if the artist has repented. Music was Lucifer's bailiwick when he was in heaven and artists are particularly vulnerable to demonic attacks.

However, in the Tonex example you used (of which I have no clue who this person is or anything about the cussing) I do not have enough information to make an educated opinion on Tonex. But based on your post, I'd stay away.

 

[Crackers Phinn]

i agree we have to be mindful in what we come in contact with and observe whats holy and not holy

like my dad has said before
everyone is a christian now because its a thing to do, but when he grew up they would look at a Christian as a peculiar person they were a outcast and so different from others(1980's)

Where did your father grow up?

 

[PaperClip]

10 char rule

And back to the point about giving tithes and offerings to a church...ANY CHURCH.... that's all FREE WILL. The government doesn't even TRUST YOU to pay your taxes WILLINGLY. The government HIJACKS that money before you get your check! How about that?!??!
According to a post you did a while back, it is not free will, it is an obligation that a christian must do, just like paying taxes. (or at least i think it was jesus who said we have to render to Caesar.....you know the rest).

Making sure I'm quoted accurately.

Pull the post where I said a person does not have free will regarding tithing. I do believe tithing is a vital part of the overall Christian walk. You call yourself any kind of Christian, you're a tither. A common thread throughout my posts on this topic is that every human being on the planet has free will. We even have free will to serve Christ or not and obey His Word.

For the rest of the points you spoke to in my post, it's your free will to speak to them.

 

[discobiscuits]

Making sure I'm quoted accurately.

Pull the post where I said a person does not have free will regarding tithing. I do believe tithing is a vital part of the overall Christian walk. You call yourself any kind of Christian, you're a tither. A common thread throughout my posts on this topic is that every human being on the planet has free will. We even have free will to serve Christ or not and obey His Word.

For the rest of the points you spoke to in my post, it's your free will to speak to them.

1. I was paraphrasing something you said. By my paraphrasing I was typing what I inferred from your post.

2. Had I been quoting you, I would have "quoted" you. You actually said (here comes another paraphrase) that one gives tithes (out of obedience). We did not agree on the give/pay aspect.

3. The inference from something you said about giving tithes read (to me) that if one chose not to do it, they had better get right with God because they were disobedient.

If one is disobedient that implies that they deliberately and willfully chose not to do something that they were required to do. A requirement preformed through obedience is the same implication. An individual does have the ability to exercise his/her free will to be disobedient. However, obedience is the relinquishing/quashing of one's own free will to bend to or comply with the will of another.

(edited for brevity)...If I were you, I would get up, drive to the church and slip that tithing envelope under the bars.... I would do WHATEVER I had to do to get that right before the sun goes down on this day...

This is the post where I inferred the implication that one did not have free will to not tithe and had better tithe before the sun went down on that day. If that is not what you were implying, my bad because that is what I inferred.

(again, edited for brevity)
A couple of quick things:
1) We do not PAY tithes and offerings. We GIVE them, willingly, gladly, cheerfully.

2) We do not "mail in" our tithes and offerings. We BRING them, according to the Word of God.

3) This issue/situation is less about the money of the tithe and more about OBEDIENCE and DISCIPLINE...

To to anything out of obedience & discipline = perform an act where my free will is not available for me to use.
Disobey = exercising my free will.

Obedience: "Obedience (Lat. obêdire, "to hearken to", hence "to obey") is the complying with a command or precept. It is here regarded not as a transitory and isolated act but rather as a virtue or principle of righteous conduct. It is then said to be the moral habit by which one carries out the order of his superior with the precise intent of fulfilling the injunction."

Obedience subordinates free will.
Subordinate: submissive to or controlled by authority

Comply: to conform, submit, or adapt (as to a regulation or to another's wishes) as required or requested.
​

So, like I said. The way that I understand obedience, it is not an act of free will, it is following the will of an authority. Hence the reason for the way I understood your posts.

But if it makes you feel "more righter" or vindicated: Obedience can be viewed or stated as one exercising his/her free will to stifle or ignore his/her free will to do the will of another.

 

[PaperClip]

Obedience subordinates free will.

Per your sentence above.... I had to ponder a moment....

Obedience done out of anything BUT free will is witchcraft. In other words, forcing somebody to do something they don't want to do but through seduction, manipulation, threat of force, etc.

So noted on the rest of your response. Not as a dismissal, but to acknowledge your right and privilege to express yourself and to not start an unhealthy and unfruitful and unproductive tit-for-tat, esp. since you've noted that you edited quotes for brevity.

 

[discobiscuits]

Per your sentence above.... I had to ponder a moment....

Obedience done out of anything BUT free will is witchcraft. In other words, forcing somebody to do something they don't want to do but through seduction, manipulation, threat of force, etc.

So noted on the rest of your response. Not as a dismissal, but to acknowledge your right and privilege to express yourself and to not start an unhealthy and unfruitful and unproductive tit-for-tat, esp. since you've noted that you edited quotes for brevity.

Normally, I let you have the last word since I've noticed that is your m.o. and you seem to enjoy it. You usually end with some kind of snippy quip just as you typed in the above post. This time...

I disagree with the bold statement. No one is "forced" to obey. You can choose to disobey but do not confuse choice with free will. Free will is the ability to act on a choice. If you choose to obey, you are coming into agreement with the authority that you are obeying. That is not the same as exercising free will. Disobeying authority is exercising free will to choose not to obey. No one has to choose to obey, we choose to disobey.

Life was well with Lucifer as long as he performed his created function. He did not have to choose daily to be who is was. But one day, he decides that he wants to be like the Most High and in that moment he chose to disobey. The rest is history (and present and future).

I don't choose to abide by the established laws. I just do it. It is my obligation to obey. But if one day I break a law (like speeding b/c I'm late for something) I have now exercised my will to disobey authority.

Jesus did not have to exercise free will to fulfill out of obedience his purpose. He asked His Father to take his fate from Him. God did not honor that request and Jesus continued on. He did not choose to obey, he chose not to disobey. It is stated clearly that if He wanted to, He was God, He could choose to save himself but had He done that, He would have sinned which would have been the result of Him choosing to exercise His free will. Jesus was not under some spell of witchcraft. He did not exercise His free will to obey, He didn't have to, Savior was His created purpose. The only choice or exercise of free will He was free to make was to not be Savior and to come down off of the cross or not even go in the 1st place. That would have been a deliberate act of disobedience. An act of exercising free will.

 

[coconow2007]

I think you have to read and follow teachings for yourself. You cannot depend on others because they are human and prone to mistakes just like we all are.

 

[PaperClip]

Normally, I let you have the last word since I've noticed that is your m.o. and you seem to enjoy it. You usually end with some kind of snippy quip just as you typed in the above post. This time...

I disagree with the bold statement. No one is "forced" to obey. You can choose to disobey but do not confuse choice with free will. Free will is the ability to act on a choice. If you choose to obey, you are coming into agreement with the authority that you are obeying. That is not the same as exercising free will. Disobeying authority is exercising free will to choose not to obey. No one has to choose to obey, we choose to disobey.

Life was well with Lucifer as long as he performed his created function. He did not have to choose daily to be who is was. But one day, he decides that he wants to be like the Most High and in that moment he chose to disobey. The rest is history (and present and future).

I don't choose to abide by the established laws. I just do it. It is my obligation to obey. But if one day I break a law (like speeding b/c I'm late for something) I have now exercised my will to disobey authority.

Jesus did not have to exercise free will to fulfill out of obedience his purpose. He asked His Father to take his fate from Him. God did not honor that request and Jesus continued on. He did not choose to obey, he chose not to disobey. It is stated clearly that if He wanted to, He was God, He could choose to save himself but had He done that, He would have sinned which would have been the result of Him choosing to exercise His free will. Jesus was not under some spell of witchcraft. He did not exercise His free will to obey, He didn't have to, Savior was His created purpose. The only choice or exercise of free will He was free to make was to not be Savior and to come down off of the cross or not even go in the 1st place. That would have been a deliberate act of disobedience. An act of exercising free will.

You can certainly have the last word. It's never been a competition.

 

[Lissa0821]

I think that it is key to nourish and develop your personal relationship with God and His Word to be able to discern what to believe and what not to believe. This takes some work, time and effort on our part (meaning the Christian that has confessed Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior). By work I mean craving out time each day to read the bible, to prayer and to meditate on scriptures. It takes conscious effort to forgive others and to be quick to repent so that you can hear from God. To faithfully attend a church where you are being fed the Word of God and where you believe is the right place for you to give of your finances, time and talent. Regardless of how the media portrays Christian leaders with valid or invalid claims, it really doesn't change the daily need for God in each of our lives. But if one is not willing to read the bible, pray and even acknowledge God's presence or His word. Or go to the church but only want to pick and choose what parts of the bible or sermon will benefit them, then it is very easy to be deceive and accept any negative report because there isn't enough of a realtionship with God developed within you to know the difference.

As for my pastor, Pastor Creflo Dollar, he is not a Church Celebrity. He is a Man of God that teaches the Word of God with simplicity and understanding. Yes, he was GIVEN a Rolls Royce by the church but he has sown cars into people's lives as well but you will never hear about that in a media report. Yes, the ministry takes in millions of dollars but that is to be expected of a worldwide ministry.

 

[kayte]

I get impatient with threads/topic like this..I am a better sinner so I get to scrutinze your sins....and make a judgement about you and consider boycotting ..your.... product.... service...records....church etc etc....
What EVER came of the Christian view of "forgiving 7x 70" or "be ye tender hearted...forgiving one another as Christ forgave you"
..."taking the log out of one's own eye,first" ....."the one without....sin may cast the first stone from the Bible"
Repenting of sins can be done publicly or privately...with a-n-y-o-n-e....AND WE ARE ALL SINNERS....high profile people low profile people no profile people.... serve our Lord as best as can and try to do a bit better than the day before .....

So...If we took an itemized integrity inventory of each other...gave an "exam in who honestly walks a moral path" so that only the civilized Christians would form a worshipping body.... well....the pews would be and remain empty ...only the NON SINNERS..the flies and cockroaches would visit...and no one would buy anything from anybody....no one could..and btw..I'd FLUNK in the first minute. I sure hope people will continue to check out my books at the library and/or buy them...buy my books,anyway.....God knows... I struggle EVERY DAY EVERY HOUR with my sins...sometimes it 's made public and sometimes in privately to my God...Are these these Christians any less entitled to their process and their privacy..

Jesus said ....
ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
The Word says...There is No one rightous .. no not one
not you ..not me...
if anyone on this thread is sinless let me shake your hand...and ask how did you get so perfect? tell me the big secret....then I can be afforded the luxury of pointing/shaking a righteous and sanctified finger.