Catholicism Is Not Christianity?

[BAILEYSCREAM]

Catholics believe in God and accept Jesus as our savior....

For a while, the Catholic Church was very corrupt and immoral. Some of the changes that occured when it was corrupt have become part of tradition. That doesn't mean that we are not CHRISTians-- believing in Christ. But it takes time for changes to be accepted, and some of these changes have become out belief.

And as for this website..

Pope Innocent died in 1216 from what I found. I have a hard time seeing Pope JPII saying some of these things.


A lot of these 'facts' are being quoted from people who have died . What one man says shouldn't be used to judge the whole religion. So.... that's just my defending of Catholicism...

Ok, for the most part I don't participate in the religious discussions because I know how they go, but, alot of non catholic churches also have corruption and immorality going on and I can give examples.

 

[BAILEYSCREAM]

Mods: I am placing this in the off-topic board because I do not ascribe to Catholicism as Bible-based Christianity. I am wondering if Catholic members here consider themselves Christians, or something else entirely or possibly something else closely linked.

Let's peruse and consider the information in the following link: http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0071/0071_01.asp

Just a quick question Options.
What DO you ascribe/base the catholicism as?

They read the bible don't they? Unless of course there is some other book they read that I don't know about.

As far as I'm concerned. If you believe in God and accept him as savior then you're a Christian. Period.
Christian come in all different forms. As long as they have one common goal (believing in God) then I think that's what counts.

So please don't generalize Catholics and Catholicism that way.

Very good point. It can be all too easy to find fault with any church. Nobody is perfect, especially if you're human.

Also, unless you've been to several churches, how could you possibly know how they worship.

I think people need to keep a focus on personally trying to get to heaven (if you believe in it and care to go there) instead of focusing on other people.

 

[Laginappe]

Honestly, I don't see how inquiry is hate-filled. I believe God would want people to interact, communicate and discuss religion and spirituality in order to ultimately find ourselves closer to Him and to the Truth.

I said, let's consider and peruse the following link. I did not say this is the God's honest, absolute truth about the Catholic church. I do think that the site made some interesting points, but I wouldn't use it as a primary or exclusive source for information.

Well, I perused the link and I find it not worthy of consideration. That you do is very telling about the true nature behind your supposed inquiry. Those points you find interesting are nothing but hateful slander. Interesting? That's really sad. And if you wouldn't use it as a primary or exclusive source - why post it in the first place? Why not find a site that truly offers an intelligent exchange of information about Catholicism and religion in general. If its not your primary source why is it the ONE you want to discuss?

 

[Sweet_Ambrosia]

I don't know why the Pope is revered as if he is God himself. He is a man, a human, like you and me and Joe Blow. Has he performed good deeds? Probably. But have you and I? Probably so.

I asked my mother, who was once a Catholic is now a Bahai, why she wanted us to be Catholics when we were young. She said, "I wanted you to be in the best Christian church." I told her that I do not believe Catholicism is Christianity. I asked her, "Why do they pray to saints? Saints are humans who presumably did good deeds and were designated as saints posthumously. If I performed good deeds in life and then was deemed a saint after death, would you pray in my name (as some Catholics do)?" And she did not want to touch that.

LOL.

Is this your main reason for making this thread??
The link that was provided isnt worthy to be discuss,its bogus!

 

[Enchantmt]

I havent looked at the links but basically EVERY denomination believes their way is the one true way, or at least that was their principle in the beginning before all the political correctness came on the scene, otherwise they wouldnt even exist. They basically said, your doctrine, or interpretation of it, is wrong and this is what we believe, this is whats right so we are going to start our own church.

The reason people say negative things about the Catholic Church, if I'm not mistaken,and I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, is that they pray to saints, which is not biblical or at least *I* cant recall a passage where Jesus or his disciples instructed anyone to pray to anyone other than God or Jesus or in their name or where anyone other than Jesus or the Holy spirit is listed as an intercessor. (Not speaking of the living saying prayer, like Job did for his sons and daughters). There are also books that arent in the agreed upon canon, which I havent read, tho I think my mom has a copy, and some say the books have spells or endorsement of witchcraft, which is an abomination. They are considered Christian however, and actually the one universally recognized symbols of Christianity, in my opinion. I think thats one of the reasons they have had so many problems, I seriously believe there is a spiritual attack being waged upon them. Millions look to the Catholic church for leadership, if they fall, if faith is lost in one of the major symbols, all kinds of havoc can be caused. Not to dismiss the actions of people in the scandals that have been revealed, but I think church leaders in general are subjected to more spiritual attacks, and insted of them addressing the issues as they arose they swept them under the rug and kept untrustworthy people in leadership positions. But thats a WHOLENOTHERTHREAD.

ETA: As far as folx worshiping the Pope like hes God, that goes on on a smaller scale in almost every church everyday. Its the nature of people to idolize what they can see, thats why when there is a preacher or leader that falls, some folx faith fails because they were caught up in the man/messenger and not the message. The bible warns against this for good reason.

 

[fine_beauty]

Hi Enchantmt,

I'm stepping in because you stated someone will correct you if you are wrong. Pertaining to your statement in bold below, I have the following rejoinder:

When God refers to Himself as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, was He referring to Himself as the God of the Living or the God of the Dead?

Our Lord answered this very question when he was questioned about the resurrection cum the marriage question of the Sadducees as indicated below
Matt 22:23-33

23 The same day the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to Him and asked Him,

24 saying: "Teacher, Moses said that if a man dies, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife and raise up offspring for his brother.

25 "Now there were with us seven brothers. The first died after he had married, and having no offspring, left his wife to his brother.

26 "Likewise the second also, and the third, even to the seventh.

"Last of all the woman died also.

"Therefore, in the resurrection, whose wife of the seven will she be? For they all had her."

Jesus answered and said to them, "You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God.

"For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven.

"But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying,

'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living."

And when the multitudes heard this, they were astonished at His teaching.

(NKJ)



Mark 12:18-27

The saints are alive because they died in friendship with God and the prayer of a just man availaith much (James 5 vs 16)

God bless,

I havent looked at the links but basically EVERY denomination believes their way is the one true way, or at least that was their principle in the beginning before all the political correctness came on the scene, otherwise they wouldnt even exist. They basically said, your doctrine, or interpretation of it, is wrong and this is what we believe, this is whats right so we are going to start our own church.

The reason people say negative things about the Catholic Church, if I'm not mistaken,and I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, is that they pray to saints, which is not biblical or at least *I* cant recall a passage where Jesus or his disciples instructed anyone to pray to anyone other than God or Jesus or in their name or where anyone other than Jesus or the Holy spirit is listed as an intercessor. (Not speaking of the living saying prayer, like Job did for his sons and daughters). There are also books that arent in the agreed upon canon, which I havent read, tho I think my mom has a copy, and some say the books have spells or endorsement of witchcraft, which is an abomination. They are considered Christian however, and actually the one universally recognized symbols of Christianity, in my opinion. I think thats one of the reasons they have had so many problems, I seriously believe there is a spiritual attack being waged upon them. Millions look to the Catholic church for leadership, if they fall, if faith is lost in one of the major symbols, all kinds of havoc can be caused. Not to dismiss the actions of people in the scandals that have been revealed, but I think church leaders in general are subjected to more spiritual attacks, and insted of them addressing the issues as they arose they swept them under the rug and kept untrustworthy people in leadership positions. But thats a WHOLENOTHERTHREAD.

ETA: As far as folx worshiping the Pope like hes God, that goes on on a smaller scale in almost every church everyday. Its the nature of people to idolize what they can see, thats why when there is a preacher or leader that falls, some folx faith fails because they were caught up in the man/messenger and not the message. The bible warns against this for good reason.

 

[Tai]

It's threads like this that made me stop coming to the Christianity board. After this, I will never return. I don't know how some so called Christians can say some of the horrible things they do about the Catholic faith. Follow the way that God calls you and don't worry about what other people do. Period, end of story.

 

[Enchantmt]

I'm sorry I thought I was clear. Yes God is the God of the living, however I do not see any scripture where we are instructed to pray to or in the name of anyone other than the Father(God-not earthly or spirtual fathers), the Son (Jesus) or the Holy Spirit. Nor do I see where anyone had physically died and been named an intercessor on behalf of man or listed as having the power to answer prayer, although there are instances of people (those not yet having experienced physical death) praying on behalf of other peope (those not yet having experienced physical death) as Job did for his sons and daughters or as Paul prayed for his disciples, friends and the church. I'm not saying there arent any, but I dont recall any, so if you or anyone has any biblical example can you please post the chapter and verse? Thanx.

ETA: I dont have any animosity toward this or any other faith, I was just trying to answer the question as to why there is some confusion surrounding this faith and why some would have the idea that it is not Christian and from what I understand it is based on the praying to the saints and to the additional books in the Catholic bible. I could be wrong but that is my understanding of the issue.

 

[pebbles]

As upsetting as this thread is for some people, I think it's necessary to clear up for those who don't know it, that Catholics are Christians. How it came to be that people feel it's a seperate religion on it's own, I'm not sure. But Catholics believe that Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior. Some of their practices may be different from the Protestant faith, but we all believe in the saving grace of the Lord Jesus.

 

[pebbles]

I just had a look at that link, and I see why some people are upset. I would ask people to be considerate of the fact that there are many members of the Catholic faith on this forum. Catholics are Christians. There's no question about that. Also, I think it's best to ask any questions you might have, but I don't think that we should post links like this that will cause friction. The purpose of this forum is not to attack Catholocism or it's teachings, but for us to pray and fellowhip together as Christian sisters.

 

[Keen]

Honestly, I don't see how inquiry is hate-filled. I believe God would want people to interact, communicate and discuss religion and spirituality in order to ultimately find ourselves closer to Him and to the Truth.

I said, let's consider and peruse the following link. I did not say this is the God's honest, absolute truth about the Catholic church. I do think that the site made some interesting points, but I wouldn't use it as a primary or exclusive source for information.

I also try to participate in these kind of religious discussion because of the slander. But as a Catholic I feel the need to say a few things this time. Here are my two cents:

Options, I don't think it is your question that is mind boggling, it is the website you used as facts to base your decison on. That was the only information you posted so it sound like that is what makes you wonder. I find it hard to believe that any christian woulld attribute any credibility to that website. But I guess people will believe whatever they want to believe because there are many non-catholics who went to that website and thought that information was baseless.

As for the pope, I don't see that catholics worship him. Yes some people take his position in the church to the extreme just like some people idolizes celebraties but that doesn't mean all catholics think he is like God. As the leader of our church we have great respect for him.

As for Catholics praying to the dead, this is how I I take it: Jesus said several time that whoever believe in him will never die but does who are none believers are already dead (I can't remember the exact scriptures but it is repeated many times and I will look it up if anyone wants me to). I interprated that as if anyone beleive in Jesus they have eternal life. When Jesus say that he will come back to judge the living and the dead, he didn't mean that the living are the people who are still on earth and the dead are those who have passed on. To me it means that the living are those with eternal life and the dead are those who deosn't beleive.

 

[zora]

I was raised Catholic, although now I try to attend churches that are non-denominational (although I've found in most cases they really are nominational).

I LOVE the Lord because of my Catholic upbringing. And I plan to raise my children in the catholic faith because of my spiritual experience.

I left the church because I was disgusted with the politics, but to accuse Catholics of not being Christians is really ugly.

 

[EssentialGrowth]

As for the pope, I don't see that catholics worship him. Yes some people take his position in the church to the extreme just like some people idolizes celebraties but that doesn't mean all catholics think he is like God. As the leader of our church we have great respect for him.

And that's the problem to begin with, there shouldn't be a universal leader (a pope) for the Catholic Church, just like there shouldn't be patriarchs leading the Eastern Orthodox Church. The Bible says The Head of the Congregation should be Jesus Christ, a perfect man, and here Catholics (and other religions) are using an imperfect, fleshly man to lead them (Matthew 23:10). Talk about contradictions.

As for Catholics praying to the dead, this is how I I take it: Jesus said several time that whoever believe in him will never die but does who are none believers are already dead (I can't remember the exact scriptures but it is repeated many times and I will look it up if anyone wants me to). I interprated that as if anyone beleive in Jesus they have eternal life. When Jesus say that he will come back to judge the living and the dead, he didn't mean that the living are the people who are still on earth and the dead are those who have passed on. To me it means that the living are those with eternal life and the dead are those who deosn't beleive.

So if the living are those who already received eternal life, what would be the point for Jesus to judge BOTH the living and dead, since the living have already been judged and gained this "eternal ife"??

 

[EssentialGrowth]

I left the church because I was disgusted with the politics, but to accuse Catholics of not being Christians is really ugly.

Could you specify when you speak of "the politics".

 

[zora]

Could you specify when you speak of "the politics".

I would say their role (or lack of) in the Holacaust and slavery. They (the Vatican, not catholics) were not focal enough and they could've done more.

In addition, the whole concept of Vatican City really bothers me. They seem too powerful for their own good.

However, none of the above takes away from my childhood spiritual growth. It was pretty powerful.

 

[SVT]

Mods: I am placing this in the off-topic board because I do not ascribe to Catholicism as Bible-based Christianity. I am wondering if Catholic members here consider themselves Christians, or something else entirely or possibly something else closely linked.

Let's peruse and consider the information in the following link: http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0071/0071_01.asp

Options, what is your commentary on the link you posted?

 

[Selene]

From a historical standpoint, all of the protestant dominations flow from Catholicism.....The Catholic Church is the FIRST organized Christian church; Folks should read the history of the reformation, Martin Luther's criticism of the Church to see how the Church split into all of these various denominations...

I am Baptist, but I know Catholics don't "worship" the Pope...that's a bit much

 

[Country gal]

I think you should define what christianity is. Once you do you will realize that Catholics are christians too. It's amazing to me that people don't think Catholics are christians when the Roman Catholic church was formed in honor of Jesus. erplexed

Mods: I am placing this in the off-topic board because I do not ascribe to Catholicism as Bible-based Christianity. I am wondering if Catholic members here consider themselves Christians, or something else entirely or possibly something else closely linked.

Let's peruse and consider the information in the following link: http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0071/0071_01.asp

 

[Country gal]

So do other religions have pastors. Why do they have Elders in the church? Why does the Southern Baptist church have a leader that oversees the religion and set doctrine?

And that's the problem to begin with, there shouldn't be a universal leader (a pope) for the Catholic Church, just like there shouldn't be patriarchs leading the Eastern Orthodox Church. The Bible says The Head of the Congregation should be Jesus Christ, a perfect man, and here Catholics (and other religions) are using an imperfect, fleshly man to lead them (Matthew 23:10). Talk about contradictions.



So if the living are those who already received eternal life, what would be the point for Jesus to judge BOTH the living and dead, since the living have already been judged and gained this "eternal ife"??

 

[Poohbear]

Why does the Southern Baptist church have a leader that oversees the religion and set doctrine?

This is true! I'm Baptist and the pastor of the church is considered the overseer of the church. It's in the Bible in the book of Timothy. Maybe the Pope is the overseer for the Catholics.

 

[Country gal]

That is his role in the Catholic Church.

This is true! I'm Baptist and the pastor of the church is considered the overseer of the church. It's in the Bible in the book of Timothy. Maybe the Pope is the overseer for the Catholics.

 

[Selene]

Yeah Poohbear, you got it...for example, you have the National Baptist Convention, where Dr. William J. Shaw presides, the NBC sets policy for a lot of Baptist Churches; you have the AME church where Bishops are the Chief Officers of the Church; its just that the Catholic Church is a little bit more a cohesive unit than many other denominations of Christianity and they have a very visible leader.

 

[fine_beauty]

If we follow the same premise can you provide me with a verse in the bible that SPECIFICALLY states not to ask them(Heb 12: 1 ... the cloud of witnesses) to pray for us.

In fact where in the bible does it state that the bible is our SOLE determinant of doctrine.

I don't assume that you have animosity. I welcome question personally. I question all things about my faith. It is helpful but I'm also aware that there are things too deep for me to understand like the doctrine of the Holy Trinity.

I always give the benefit of the doubt and if it is glaring, I post the offending text before bellowing my battle cry ^_^

I'm sorry I thought I was clear. Yes God is the God of the living, however I do not see any scripture where we are instructed to pray to or in the name of anyone other than the Father(God-not earthly or spirtual fathers), the Son (Jesus) or the Holy Spirit. Nor do I see where anyone had physically died and been named an intercessor on behalf of man or listed as having the power to answer prayer, although there are instances of people (those not yet having experienced physical death) praying on behalf of other peope (those not yet having experienced physical death) as Job did for his sons and daughters or as Paul prayed for his disciples, friends and the church. I'm not saying there arent any, but I dont recall any, so if you or anyone has any biblical example can you please post the chapter and verse? Thanx.

ETA: I dont have any animosity toward this or any other faith, I was just trying to answer the question as to why there is some confusion surrounding this faith and why some would have the idea that it is not Christian and from what I understand it is based on the praying to the saints and to the additional books in the Catholic bible. I could be wrong but that is my understanding of the issue.

 

[Country gal]

Yeah Poohbear, you got it...for example, you have the National Baptist Convention, where Dr. William J. Shaw presides, the NBC sets policy for a lot of Baptist Churches; you have the AME church where Bishops are the Chief Officers of the Church; its just that the Catholic Church is a little bit more a cohesive unit than many other denominations of Christianity and they have a very visible leader.

We are also have one of the largest number of followers world wide. So it makes sense to have a leader over top of so many.

 

[fine_beauty]

Well stated, Pebs

I bow and duff my hat at ya!

I just had a look at that link, and I see why some people are upset. I would ask people to be considerate of the fact that there are many members of the Catholic faith on this forum. Catholics are Christians. There's no question about that. Also, I think it's best to ask any questions you might have, but I don't think that we should post links like this that will cause friction. The purpose of this forum is not to attack Catholocism or it's teachings, but for us to pray and fellowhip together as Christian sisters.

 

[Country gal]

Okay, Finebeauty is here so I am covered. She is better than me at answering questions on our faith.

Love that picture of the pope.

 

[DragonPearl]

EssentialGrowth, here are some answers for you.

Regarding praying to dead saints:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp

Saint "Worship":
http://www.catholic.com/library/Saint_Worship.asp

 

[fine_beauty]

Well EssentialGrowth,
I disagree with you and so does Christ Jesus who made Peter the foundation for His Church. I don't suppose you know better than the Master. He even said a servant is greater than his Master. Please read John 21 vs. 15 and Matthew 16:18

Both will perfectly answer your questions. God does not make empty promises!

And that's the problem to begin with, there shouldn't be a universal leader (a pope) for the Catholic Church, just like there shouldn't be patriarchs leading the Eastern Orthodox Church. The Bible says The Head of the Congregation should be Jesus Christ, a perfect man, and here Catholics (and other religions) are using an imperfect, fleshly man to lead them (Matthew 23:10). Talk about contradictions.



So if the living are those who already received eternal life, what would be the point for Jesus to judge BOTH the living and dead, since the living have already been judged and gained this "eternal ife"??

 

[SVT]

I just had a look at that link, and I see why some people are upset. I would ask people to be considerate of the fact that there are many members of the Catholic faith on this forum. Catholics are Christians. There's no question about that. Also, I think it's best to ask any questions you might have, but I don't think that we should post links like this that will cause friction. The purpose of this forum is not to attack Catholocism or it's teachings, but for us to pray and fellowhip together as Christian sisters.

I didn't see this from Pebbles earlier. I think her post puts this discussion to rest. Of course this thread can be reopened later.