Black products and services - why can't we just pay up?

[sunshinelady]

Ms. Jessie's products are overpriced, that's just plain and simple. And, I seriously hope Miko isn't charging the same price in DC because those hairstyles are shoddy.

And, shipping is a relatively universal cost, so we know when we are being overcharged. I think it is very reasonable to ask/criticize if someone is trying to charge you $11 for something being shipped by ground.

 

[hrtbndr21]

If we're using Miss Jessie's as an example, their products are over priced and no it's not about having a "Black price." I've seen the same complaints about them on non-black hair boards. People have a choice to shell out the money if they feel it's worth it that shouldn't stop people from voicing their opinions about them. On this board we all share info about products and services we've tried it might stop the next sista from wasting her money.

 

[LongHairDreams]

Why does it always seem that many people in here have an issue with products and services by black women/companies if the prices are higher than what "they" think it should be? I rephrased this questions several times and I hope this makes sense And BTW, I'm black as well in case anyone is wondering.

It almost seems like people expect products and services rendered by black women should be discounted or something. Then I've seen members cause another member to change their mind about getting a more expensive service because people feel it should be cheaper. Why do we feel the need to try to put our own price tag on things like that?

For example: One of the Miss Jessie's threads really took me for a loop. The OP asked something like "If money were no object, would you get your hair done at Miss Jessies?" Then so many people chimed in and said that it's too expensive or that it should be $200 instead of $600. How can someone devalue a service? I understand if someone feels that the service they received was not worth anything because they were not satisfied, but to try to re-price it altogether?...... Those girls are providing a service that THEY feel is worth $600. I don't think they could ever fully justify why they charge what they charge to anyone's satisfaction - and they shouldn't have to. If they did, they would probably list a whole bunch of things that people would STILL try to downplay. I wanted to post a reply in that thread but I didn't want to throw it off-topic.

Another example: Someone posted a thread about the lady from Boundless Tresses charging $11 for shipping. Then someone else in the thread expected the BT owner to come and "explain herself" about the shipping charge. What the? She is selling a quality product and does anyone think about the labor that goes behind it when it comes to shipping? How about boxes, internal packaging, labeling of the bottle, etc.

Why do we feel like we are entitled to discounted products and services all the time? If you want the product, can't you just pay and call it a day? I hardly see anyone complain about paying $30 for 2oz of Kerastase product but you'll complain about $50 for 16oz of a Miss Jessie's product or $11 for shipping for BT. That's just to name a couple.

I totally agree. I never ask for a discount from another black person. And I think its wrong. I don't care what the race the person is, if the price is to high, im not paying. There are plenty of cheaper alternatives that are just as good.

And for those who complain about how high the BT shipping is, it's shipped Priority USPS. This gets the products to you faster so depending on where you live, the price could be high or low.

 

[Je Ne Sais Quoi]

I am still failing to see how this is a "black" thing vs wanting your moneys worth period

 

[TINKABELLE]

10 characters

 

[lisana]

I never hear these types of discussions about white owned products, folks will complain about a product being too high, yes, but IMO it seems that when its a small black run company, SOME folks feel entitled to hold said company to higher standards and are so quick to find fault and complain about something, if i ain't talking about YOU, then fine, but some folks are this way.

 

[wannabelong]

My best friend owns a printing business and she's complained to me that many clients expect a discount from her. I don't think it's right to expect a discount just because they are black. They need to make money just like white people do. If I feel a product is over priced then I won't purchase it, the race of the owner is not a factor.

 

[firecracker]

In the case of Miss Jessie's, I think that the prices they charge would be debated regardless of who is doing the charging.

The price/value of Aveda and Ojon is debated back and forth across hair hair boards.

From an economic point of view, it makes perfect sense that the supply and demand price points be a steady topic on high end products/services.

I guarantee that as I type somebody on a shoe board is debating whether Louboutin's are worth a mortgage payment.

Now ain't that the truth. Its just not black folk or black folk services that are questionable or considered too high to consumers. Its not a black thang.

 

[LeopardLover77]

I never hear these types of discussions about white owned products, folks will complain about a product being too high, yes, but IMO it seems that when its a small black run company, SOME folks feel entitled to hold said company to higher standards and are so quick to find fault and complain about something, if i ain't talking about YOU, then fine, but some folks are this way.

ITA. EXACTLY!

 

[discodumpling]

I, like most people regadless of race/ethnicty love a bargain. People simply love to get "the hook up"

When relaxed and dependant on stylists I went to upscale and "round the way" salons. I once paid $400 for chemical + services at a salon in NYC & have paid as little as $20 for the same at a Dominican salon in the Bronx. The difference was mostly TIME. CPT (coloured people time) vs in-& out at the Dominicansadditionally I think the products & techniques used worked much better for my hair.

My experiences with black stylists always end up feeling "familiar" (y'all know how we do) and then the lateness starts, the rushing of my hair starts, the over processing starts and the unprofessionalism starts. ...& i'm still obligated to pay for sub-par svcs?

 

[LeopardLover77]

Ms. Jessie's products are overpriced, that's just plain and simple. And, I seriously hope Miko isn't charging the same price in DC because those hairstyles are shoddy.

And, shipping is a relatively universal cost, so we know when we are being overcharged. I think it is very reasonable to ask/criticize if someone is trying to charge you $11 for something being shipped by ground.

I personally think the word "overpriced" is truly a matter of opinion. It is "over your budget" per sa. (I'm not saying you personally sunshinelady).

Now I understand if you feel her work is shoddy and not worth what she is charging - that's a different story. I've seen some of the newer pictures and I do agree that some of the work doesn't look the same as some of the older pictures. Who knows why. I wonder if she knows.... but I'm not going to get into that right now.

But I must comment again on the shipping of Boundless Tresses or any other product.... How can you (again, not you personally) determine what a charge should be for shipping. Shipping includes shipping AND handling. So therefore you are paying a bit more for the handling. Products don't just put themselves in a box, add cushioning, then print receipts (using ink and paper), then tape themselves up and THEN drive themselves to the post office. So it shouldn't matter if it's ground shipping or not. And like someone else stated, BT uses priority shipping which is pretty fast for the most part.

Slightly beside the point but: Does anyone question (I certainly have) Victoria Secret for charging you shipping based on your order total?? Now I think THAT deserves criticism and they are a large company. So if I spend $300 on two dress that weigh 4 ounces altogether, my shipping will be about $30. But if I buy one pair of 8ounce heavy boots from their site, my shipping would be $12.

 

[justNikki]

OT: AM I the only one that absolutely HATES the way Ms. Jessie's makes your hair look? And I'm talking about the photos on the curve website. Ugh! Not cute.

I think a lot of us are savvy enough to check out ingredients and compare them to what's coming out of the BSS down the street. If I can get it down the street for $5, why would I pay anyone $65 for it? I think when some folks set price points, they do it just to make it more attractive to those who like to have "the best". However, there are several Black vendors that I must say I can see why they charge what they do for products...check out the ingredients.

ETA: If you've ever tried your hand at mixtressing, you understand what I mean about product prices...even at wholesale, I can understand by the time you're get all of the oils and quality ingredients, packaging, marketing, etc, you're going to have to charge a little more for the product.

 

[jasmin]

Does it matter what color they are if the prices are out of this world. Also it does matter how much money people can spend. I spend a lot and I probably shouldn't.

 

[LeopardLover77]

I am still failing to see how this is a "black" thing vs wanting your moneys worth period

Well I do feel that it is primarily, but not solely a black thing honestly. Yes, we are darn right entitled to get our money's worth.

However, I feel that if someone charges $600 for their service and that service includes the following (example only):

1. Professionalism
2. Dedicated appointment time
3. Chemical service
4. Shampoo service after the chemical
5. Straightening service
6. Cutting service
7. Styling service
8. And lastly, a finished product that entails everything that the stylist is about

If you check off on all of those things, then the $600 asking price is valid. It is totally irrelevant if one feels that the service should be $200 or simply that the price shouldn't be what it is because one feels that black people aren't on that economic level.

ETA:
Here's more to add to the list, they are rather indirect in regards to your actual service. These are things that you may not necessarily care or think about - but hey all the money doesn't just go into the person's pocket:

9. The very building that the salon is held in
10. The lights and bill - so that the stylist can SEE your head
11. The chair you sit in along with the other equipment
12. The water and the bill - so that your hair can be shampooed
13. The PRODUCTS that are being used (hopefully high-quality ones mind you)
14. The physical LABOR that it takes to do everything that needs to be done for the service
15. Health insurance so that the stylist can stay in good health

 

[discodumpling]

Well I do feel that it is primarily, but not solely a black thing honestly. Yes, we are darn right entitled to get our money's worth.

However, I feel that if someone charges $600 for their service and that service includes the following (example only):

1. Professionalism
2. Dedicated appointment time
3. Chemical service
4. Shampoo service after the chemical
5. Straightening service
6. Cutting service
7. Styling service
8. And lastly, a finished product that entails everything that the stylist is about

If you check off on all of those things, then the $600 asking price is valid. It is totally irrelevant if one feels that the service should be $200 or simply that the price shouldn't be what it is because one feels that black people aren't on that economic level.

For my $600 I need a few more things added to your list. I need a
9. Mani/pedi;
10. Scalp massage,
11. Brazilian wax
12. Facial
13. Threading

 

[myco]

I can see both sides of the argument.

But just to play Devil's Advocate, do you think that part of the issue is the whole "support me because I'm a black business" mentality. If people want to play on your sympathies as a black consumer to compel you to buy from them - people want to know what is in it for them.

Some (not all) have shoddy workmanship and poor ingredients - but I'm supposed to ignore that because it is black-owned. Support at all costs. A lot of times the black consumer is not respected by the black business. But if the product/business actually meets my quality standards, then I have no problem paying for it.

 

[LeopardLover77]

For my $600 I need a few more things added to your list. I need a
9. Mani/pedi;
10. Scalp massage,
11. Brazilian wax
12. Facial
13. Threading

LOL - First, I've got to laugh at that.


Here's more to add to the list, they are rather indirect in regards to your actual service. These are things that you may not necessarily care or think about - but hey all the money doesn't just go into the person's pocket:

9. The very building that the salon is held in
10. The lights and bill - so that the stylist can SEE your head
11. The chair you sit in along with the other equipment
12. The water and the bill - so that your hair can be shampooed
13. The PRODUCTS that are being used (hopefully high-quality ones mind you)
14. The physical LABOR that it takes to do everything that needs to be done for the service
15. Health insurance so that the stylist can stay in good health

 

[SparklingFlame]

But I must comment again on the shipping of Boundless Tresses or any other product.... How can you (again, not you personally) determine what a charge should be for shipping. Shipping includes shipping AND handling. So therefore you are paying a bit more for the handling. Products don't just put themselves in a box, add cushioning, then print receipts (using ink and paper), then tape themselves up and THEN drive themselves to the post office. So it shouldn't matter if it's ground shipping or not. And like someone else stated, BT uses priority shipping which is pretty fast for the most part.

Slightly beside the point but: Does anyone question (I certainly have) Victoria Secret for charging you shipping based on your order total?? Now I think THAT deserves criticism and they are a large company. So if I spend $300 on two dress that weigh 4 ounces altogether, my shipping will be about $30. But if I buy one pair of 8ounce heavy boots from their site, my shipping would be $12.

PREACH!!!!!!!!!

 

[sunshinelady]

I personally think the word "overpriced" is truly a matter of opinion. It is "over your budget" per sa. (I'm not saying you personally sunshinelady).

Now I understand if you feel her work is shoddy and not worth what she is charging - that's a different story. I've seen some of the newer pictures and I do agree that some of the work doesn't look the same as some of the older pictures. Who knows why. I wonder if she knows.... but I'm not going to get into that right now.

But I must comment again on the shipping of Boundless Tresses or any other product.... How can you (again, not you personally) determine what a charge should be for shipping. Shipping includes shipping AND handling. So therefore you are paying a bit more for the handling. Products don't just put themselves in a box, add cushioning, then print receipts (using ink and paper), then tape themselves up and THEN drive themselves to the post office. So it shouldn't matter if it's ground shipping or not. And like someone else stated, BT uses priority shipping which is pretty fast for the most part.

Slightly beside the point but: Does anyone question (I certainly have) Victoria Secret for charging you shipping based on your order total?? Now I think THAT deserves criticism and they are a large company. So if I spend $300 on two dress that weigh 4 ounces altogether, my shipping will be about $30. But if I buy one pair of 8ounce heavy boots from their site, my shipping would be $12.

I do not agree with you about the racial aspect of buying behavior. I lean more towards quality and will continue to do so. I think a lot of the issue is with products that the average consumer of which the average consumer knows the raw costs to produce. On average, I think Black people have a pretty good idea of the raw cost of a hair service and the average Black market hair product. I can give you a great example of something that I did in a BSS, I was looking at Tajimah Waajid *sp* products. Now her products are directed at people with natural hair and supposed to be natural, but upon looking at her ingredients, I couldn’t find anything that I couldn’t put together myself or buy in one of the other various, sundry hair oils. Now, why would I pay 20-30% more for this product? Another example is that WEN cleansing conditioner, why would I pay $25 for something that can be easily achieved with VO5? Now, I am willing to pay more for an Aveda product or a Kerastase product because they have laboratories where they do research and development and these companies bear a higher burden/liability of quality.

As far as your comment about these larger companies, they have much larger capital budgets, so they can take greater risk/loss. Now, for me, that translates to cost savings. I do support small/Black-owned business, but I think basic principles of microeconomics still need to be considered.

As far as shipping, shipping and packaging products are sold in the POST OFFICE. In this day and age, many of us have sold items or shipped packages. We know how much both the shipping and reasonable handling charges are. Businesses, regardless of size, must find ways to contain these extra costs. It is all about buying supplies in bulk.

P.S. I don’t think that Boundless Tresses is exorbitant because they ship Priority mail.

 

[soonergirl]

The only website that got under my skin for shipping...was east/west bazaar.... If its a product I want/need I just bite the bullet....

 

[sunshinelady]

I know I just wrote a book in my last post. The takeaway is that basic principles of microeconomics and an understanding of your target market need to be taken into account when pricing a product. Indirect costs can be contained and business owners need to considered that.

Shipping is a relatively fixed cost if using USPS, it is not if using Fedex, DHL, or UPS. They make deals, but they are generally not accessible to small businesses.

Handling is not a fixed cost and should be contained as much as possible. Consumers should also be given options because they may not require all the bells and whistles.

 

[SparklingFlame]

I do not agree with you about the racial aspect of buying behavior. I lean more towards quality and will continue to do so. I think a lot of the issue is with products that the average consumer of which the average consumer knows the raw costs to produce. On average, I think Black people have a pretty good idea of the raw cost of a hair service and the average Black market hair product. I can give you a great example of something that I did in a BSS, I was looking at Tajimah Waajid *sp* products. Now her products are directed at people with natural hair and supposed to be natural, but upon looking at her ingredients, I couldn’t find anything that I couldn’t put together myself or buy in one of the other various, sundry hair oils. Now, why would I pay 20-30% more for this product? Another example is that WEN cleansing conditioner, why would I pay $25 for something that can be easily achieved with VO5? Now, I am willing to pay more for an Aveda product or a Kerastase product because they have laboratories where they do research and development and these companies bear a higher burden/liability of quality.

As far as your comment about these larger companies, they have much larger capital budgets, so they can take greater risk/loss. Now, for me, that translates to cost savings. I do support small/Black-owned business, but I think basic principles of microeconomics still need to be considered.

As far as shipping, shipping and packaging products are sold in the POST OFFICE. In this day and age, many of us have sold items or shipped packages. We know how much both the shipping and reasonable handling charges are. Businesses, regardless of size, must find ways to contain these extra costs. It is all about buying supplies in bulk.

P.S. I don’t think that Boundless Tresses is exorbitant because they ship Priority mail.

I have to speak on this.

Lots of people can make lots of different things. I can sew a mean tunic top. I can make a fly one for say, $5 if I want to. But b/c I am a busy woman and I love conveineince, I would rather go to the store and buy one. Am I going to find one that costs $5 or around the same cost that I can make one? No. I will have to pay maybe $12 and up. You pay for convenience. The same applies to haircare products. Many can be made at home especially all natural products but lots of people like to have it made for them. Its all in what you prefer.

Convenience costs. Plain and simple. You are not going to pay less to have someones labor do or make something for you. As far as shipping goes that is also a convenience. You can sit at home in front of your PC click a few buttons and in a few days your products is placed at your front door. That is a convenience. That doesnt happen in a vacuum. I will simply copy and paste this here from FlyGirls earlier post:

Shipping includes shipping AND handling. So therefore you are paying a bit more for the handling. Products don't just put themselves in a box, add cushioning, then print receipts (using ink and paper), then tape themselves up and THEN drive themselves to the post office. So it shouldn't matter if it's ground shipping or not. And like someone else stated, BT uses priority shipping which is pretty fast for the most part.

So should all that labor and time just go for nothing? Nah. I wouldnt think so. I will say the old cliche: You get what you pay for.

 

[anon123]

I don't understand. Okay, if there is really an expectation that black services and products should be cheaper, I agree that that is silly. If a product is of less quality, then that should be cheap, but not just because black people made it. And I'll admit that I've seen people who act like being black is like being family and they should get a family discount (shoot, I probably wouldn't want to give the family a discount). But I don't see the big deal about complaining in general. I complain about the price of stuff all the time. Who am I to do so? Just a consumer. The very same person who has the right to say that I think a product is worth every penny (people say that a lot, too). Just like I say I think it's worth the money sometimes, I also sometimes say it's not worth the money. As for shipping, we know how much other places charge for shipping & handling so we have a way to compare. I do a lot of shopping online, so I factor the cost of shipping in with the cost of the product because, well, it's also money I have to pay. My bank account doesn't know if the dollars disappeared for product vs. shipping/handling. I like Curlmart because they ship fast, they ship priority, and their shipping cost is reasonable. I make similar judgements for yarn and shoes all the time.

But for the record, most of the hair products I buy now (now that I know about them, yay!) are black handmade and black owned. I'm happy to pay a little more for a quality product that supports smaller black businesses. But being black doesn't excuse you from accountability, nope. It has to be in the realm of reasonableness.

And I know about make it yourself vs. convenience. I can knit a sweater, sure. But it takes me 30-40 hours to do so, so I buy most of mine. So I am willing to pay for convenience, again, just so long as it's reasonable.

 

[tadeja]

Many of the black owned companies, especially the new start-ups simply don't have the economies of scale that larger white-owned companies do. If you're selling 30 units/wk, you can't compete on the price of your raw materials, packaging and other supplies with someone selling 3000 units/wk. I had a small sideline supplying cookies to area establishments but, even though I had a better product, I couldn't compete on price with the larger bakeries. And I wasn't even making money, just trying not to lose money. I don't think that the black-owned businesses are trying to gouge their customers, just trying to stay afloat.

As far as black-owned salons. I've only been in one twice in the last two years for a trim, but I used to go to Lock N Chops in NYC to have my locks groomed. They were a bit on the expensive side, but my locks always looked fierce, they always took me at my appointment time, and they were professional all around. I would gladly pay for their services anytime. If we stop patronizing the late, double-booking, eating in between the wash and conditioner type salons, perhaps they'll wise up and get better.

I try to seek out black owned products and services, and I'll gladly pay the same or even more for them. But, I won't purchase an inferior product no matter what the cost. And if a white product works better for my hair, so be it.

 

[Je Ne Sais Quoi]

I have to speak on this.

Lots of people can make lots of different things. I can sew a mean tunic top. I can make a fly one for say, $5 if I want to. But b/c I am a busy woman and I love conveineince, I would rather go to the store and buy one. Am I going to find one that costs $5 or around the same cost that I can make one? No. I will have to pay maybe $12 and up. You pay for convenience. The same applies to haircare products. Many can be made at home especially all natural products but lots of people like to have it made for them. Its all in what you prefer.

Convenience costs. Plain and simple. You are not going to pay less to have someones labor do or make something for you. As far as shipping goes that is also a convenience. You can sit at home in front of your PC click a few buttons and in a few days your products is placed at your front door. That is a convenience. That doesnt happen in a vacuum. I will simply copy and paste this here from FlyGirls earlier post:


So should all that labor and time just go for nothing? Nah. I wouldnt think so. I will say the old cliche: You get what you pay for.

I agree with most of what you said except the bolded. The thing is that even when you pay more money for something it doesnt necessarily mean the quality is always better. Like when mechanics rip you off, or that $200 bottle of magic potion hair oil on sephora we were laughing at last week . I think we as consumers need to stay educated so we aren't ripped off. I don't see anyone up in here complaining about Korean folx that like to barter for every darn thing

 

[Iluvsmuhgrass]

Well this is what I have noticed and this is across the board, black and white: some not all just some. Some people want something for nothing. Period. And I'll just leave it at that.
ETA: Oh yeah. Aint no way in Gods green Earth I would pay ANYBODY $200-$600 to do my hair. I dont care if Jesus the Christ was doing it. Nah uh> Not happening. $600. WOW!!!!!!

But different strokes for different folks!

Um.... girl if Jesus was doing my hair I'd pay. I'm just sayin..... what if he knew about some biblical herbs that gave me crazy extra cousin IT growf (not growth but GROWF.)

 

[SparklingFlame]

I agree with most of what you said except the bolded. The thing is that even when you pay more money for something it doesnt necessarily mean the quality is always better. Like when mechanics rip you off, or that $200 bottle of magic potion hair oil on sephora we were laughing at last week . I think we as consumers need to stay educated so we aren't ripped off. I don't see anyone up in here complaining about Korean folx that like to barter for every darn thing

I totally agree!
In the context of my post I meant that you get what you pay for as far as convenience.

That $200 potion is a TOTAL rip off!!!!

 

[SparklingFlame]

Um.... girl if Jesus was doing my hair I'd pay. I'm just sayin..... what if he knew about some biblical herbs that gave me crazy extra cousin IT growf (not growth but GROWF.)

DEAD!!!!!! GROWF!!!!

 

[Je Ne Sais Quoi]

Um.... girl if Jesus was doing my hair I'd pay. I'm just sayin..... what if he knew about some biblical herbs that gave me crazy extra cousin IT growf (not growth but GROWF.)

NL know good and well she would let Jesus hook her up if was doing hurr

 

[Iluvsmuhgrass]

BTW

If I had the money and I loved/liked the service or product, you bet I would pay.


I didn't see what the big deal was with NL's shipping. Hell I've paid for shipping for products that DIDN'T work (numerous times) so when I can hit one where I get the product (that works!!! can I get a hot dayum?) and the shipping is relatively reasonable... oh yes yes y'all.


But to answer the question.... It seems to be balanced BUT sometimes it seems as if more venom is spent towards "our" vendors. Unfortunately it's not just by our own kind. I was a vendor of belly dance costumes for three years and my items were exquisite quality. Beautiful hand beaded dance scarves and costumes. I had so many women at shows (all White) that would try and talk me down or cheat me out of my merchandise when they went to Becky around the corner and paid outrageous amounts of money for a raggedy piece of crap that was falling apart before you got it off the rack. It baffled the hell out of me.

Anyways.... before I digress. Dere it tiz. lol