Baptism: Would You Do This Against Someone's Will ?

[Guitarhero]

If you believe that the only way to salvation is through baptism, would you baptise someone in secret who is dying against their knowledge or the family's knowledge, a child or even groups of families/whatnot after death (like Mormons do) without their consent? If you would or wouldn't, can you provide scripture and/or tradition from your church to back up your opinion for this specific point?

There's an issue and I was wanting to provide an answer today for someone.

 

[LaFemmeNaturelle]

I would not because that person has not accepted Christ as his savior. That is a personal decision that someone makes and if that is not in his heart then what is the point? I'm sure there are other scriptures that I will come across later but John 3:16 says that "whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life". The person who you are baptizing against their wishes does not believe and has not dedicated their life to serving God.

 

[Poohbear]

Physical Baptism (being immersed in water) isn't what saves you. Spiritual Baptism (repenting of sins and believing with your heart that Jesus is Lord and Savior) is what saves you.

 

[Guitarhero]

Physical Baptism (being immersed in water) isn't what saves you. Spiritual Baptism (repenting of sins and believing with your heart that Jesus is Lord and Savior) is what saves you.

But that's not the question. Would you or wouldn't you (if you believed that baptism is necessary for salvation) baptise someone who either didn't ask for it (proxy), couldn't ask for it (dying) or perform on the child of someone who gave no indication of desiring it as a means of "saving" someone? My question is very specific and I'd like for the focus to stay on that. It's a very important issue.

 

[fifi134]

Baptism is just a public testimony of your faith. It CANNOT save you. That is why the Great Commission in Matthew 28 says to:
a) make disciples (salvation) then
b) baptize them.

 

[fifi134]

She answered the question though. We don't believe baptism can save anyone, so the question is not applicable. Even if it were (which it's not), you can't force someone to come to Christ, Christ has to choose them first.

 

[Guitarhero]

I think I need to ask this again....IF YOU BELIEVED THAT BAPTISM IS PART OF THE SALVIFIC FORMULA.....would you take it upon yourself to baptise someone outside of their expressed will or that of their parents??? The other arguments are for another thread. It's the act of taking this upon yourself for the perceived benefit of others that I'm interested in...and if negative or positive, provide scriptures??? Thank you.

 

[lesedi]

You can't make someone's decision for them.

 

[Guitarhero]

Any scriptures backing up free will and stepping over the line???

As far as baptism, this is what I go by:

John 3:5 (King James Version)

5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

So the scriptures are pointing to (according to our teaching) that water baptism is necessary for those who have heard the gospel proclaimed. There are cases in which someone has baptism of desire, dies for the faith in martyrdom or lives according to the truth/natural law on his heart, conscious of doing good (I'm not talking about perfection but someone not of the faith). I don't know of ANYTHING that states you are obligated to baptise someone who doesn't want it and I cannot, for the life of me, figure out what this person is talking about. I think it's the height of arrogance to do such.

Mark 6:12-16 (King James Version)

12And they went out, and preached that men should repent.

13And they cast out many devils, and anointed with oil many that were sick, and healed them.

14And king Herod heard of him; (for his name was spread abroad and he said, That John the Baptist was risen from the dead, and therefore mighty works do shew forth themselves in him.

15Others said, That it is Elias. And others said, That it is a prophet, or as one of the prophets.

16But when Herod heard thereof, he said, It is John, whom I beheaded: he is risen from the dead.


I truly hope I get more participants with more scriptures on that very specific point for those who believe water baptism is necessary or know of others who do and what scripture they go by. We're researching something and I just don't feel there's evidence. Thank you all for your participation!!!

 

[Prudent1]

If you believe that the only way to salvation is through baptism,
If I understand your question correctly, I do not believe the only way to salvation is through baptism. Baptism is not a requirement for salvation. However I do believe the only way to salvation is through Jesus Christ.
would you baptise someone in secret who is dying against their knowledge or the family's knowledge, a child or even groups of families/whatnot after death (like Mormons do) without their consent?
According to my beliefs, a person cannot be baptised against there will no more than a person could be married against there will, w/o their knowledge or after death. there are certain things that take place in the heart (spirit, not the fleshy one) initially. They should then be followed by certain actions (ceremonies) to confirm the covenant that has taken place internally. That is why we do not baptize babies. We believe a person needs to have a minimum of a basic understanding of right versus wrong and of Jesus' sacrifice and resultant free gift of eternal life before being baptized.

If you would or wouldn't, can you provide scripture and/or tradition from your church to back up your opinion?

Here are a few reasons I believe what I believe.
Jesus, who we are all following, was baptized by John the Baptist prior to being released by the Father for his earthly ministry. He was God. He had to fulfill the order of the priests and Melchizedek. The beginning of the completion of the OT laws.
His baptism is recorded by Matthew, Mark, and Luke. (Matt 3:13-17, Luke 3:21-22, and Mark 1:9-11)
John 1:29-33 makes reference also. There are many other scriptures both old and new to refer to water baptism.
In reference to the dead being baptized or receiving salvation after physical death, I cannot find any examples in the bible of those things. Not in the OT or the NT. Overwhelmingly, I find the things we are to emulate and concern ourselves with, the things we have questions about, are mentioned multiple times in both testaments. Sometimes there is a bit of symbolism involved. Sometimes I really have to do a through history study but, those answers and examples are always there in the end.
HTH

 

[Prudent1]

I think I need to ask this again....IF YOU BELIEVED THAT BAPTISM IS PART OF THE SALVIFIC FORMULA.....would you take it upon yourself to baptise someone outside of their expressed will or that of their parents??? The other arguments are for another thread. It's the act of taking this upon yourself for the perceived benefit of others that I'm interested in...and if negative or positive, provide scriptures??? Thank you.

Ok, I started responding to this earlier and had to come back much later so I didn't see your clarification here. It seems many of us espouse the same beliefs but that is not your question. Since none of us believe the bolded, we cannot answer that question. It seems the person you are conversing with IRL is a bit mixed up. Perhaps they will share with you the passages they believe in their belief system support baptism against the will, for the unconscious, infants, and the like.

 

[Crown]

I don't know if I understand very well your specific question. Maybe those scriptures can help. If not, please just ignore my post.

Mk. 16.15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16.16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Lu. 24.45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, 24.46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 24.47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 24.48 And ye are witnesses of these things.

Act. 2.41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.


Act. 8.36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? 8.37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. 8.38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

[FONT=&quot]Act. 10.47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 10.48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

[/FONT]Act. 18.8 And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.

 

[Guitarhero]

I don't know if I understand very well your specific question. Maybe those scriptures can help. If not, please just ignore my post.

Mk. 16.15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16.16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Lu. 24.45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, 24.46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 24.47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 24.48 And ye are witnesses of these things.

Act. 2.41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.


Act. 8.36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? 8.37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. 8.38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

[FONT=&quot]Act. 10.47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 10.48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

[/FONT]Act. 18.8 And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.

Do you have the midnight blue? I had trouble posting earlier...chose black when I was highlighting the blue scripture...and my post was all the way black lol...couldn't read it. I like the ability to set it up but it's weird lol! Might wanna put it in white color after you quote.

To the post, literally....is there a scripture justifying baptizing somebody without consent (dying patient, proxy baptising of souls, alive or dead) or, in the case of children, without their parents knowing. Someone says its okay. I smell buffalo chips in the prairie!

 

[Crown]

Sorry, I forgot to answer.

A few years ago, a Catholic grand mother told me : I want to steal my grand child to baptize her, what do you think, can I do this.
My answer was : the parents are alive?
Yes, but they don’t go to church and they have no plan to baptize the baby.
My answer : even if you believe in the baptism of babies, you can not do that. Your grand child has a mother and a father, she is not under your authority.

My answer to your question is no you can not do this : it’s a personal choice/consent.

 

[Guitarhero]

Ok, I started responding to this earlier and had to come back much later so I didn't see your clarification here. It seems many of us espouse the same beliefs but that is not your question. Since none of us believe the bolded, we cannot answer that question. It seems the person you are conversing with IRL is a bit mixed up. Perhaps they will share with you the passages they believe in their belief system support baptism against the will, for the unconscious, infants, and the like.

I'm not sure that "none" on this total list believe that baptism is necessary and commanded but I'll keep checking for responses. This person has not produced a scripture yet. I'm in shock that someone would actually consider performing a religious ritual for someone without their consent and directly involving them.

 

[Crown]

Do you have the midnight blue? I had trouble posting earlier...chose black when I was highlighting the blue scripture...and my post was all the way black lol...couldn't read it. I like the ability to set it up but it's weird lol! Might wanna put it in white color after you quote.

To the post, literally....is there a scripture justifying baptizing somebody without consent (dying patient, proxy baptising of souls, alive or dead) or, in the case of children, without their parents knowing. Someone says its okay. I smell buffalo chips in the prairie!

Are you talking about this :
1Cor. 15.29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

Be careful with Paul! I don't think he is saying it's okay to do it; he is saying some people do this.

 

[~Sparklingflame~]

Physical Baptism (being immersed in water) isn't what saves you. Spiritual Baptism (repenting of sins and believing with your heart that Jesus is Lord and Savior) is what saves you.

ITA. Routine symbolism isnt where salvation lies. What the symbol actually represents is where its at.

A sign (symbol) telling you that Miami is 50 away is not Miami. Its pointing you to where Miami is. When you get to the Miami sign you dont stop and say "Ive ARRIVED!!!" No, you keep on going until you reach your destination: Miami.

So it is with the many symbols and rituals in organized religions.

 

[Guitarhero]

Are you talking about this :
1Cor. 15.29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

Be careful with Paul! I don't think he is saying it's okay to do it; he is saying some people do this.

I'm not sure but it might be something the Mormons justify with. Thanks for that. Looking at it again, I think he's reaffirming the Jewish beliefset....you have to believe in resurrection. I'm not sure if people during John the Baptist's time baptized the dead. Scratching my head.

Disclaimer: I would NEVER even consider doing such a thing against somebody's will...NEVER. Just to make clear.

 

[Poohbear]

But that's not the question. Would you or wouldn't you (if you believed that baptism is necessary for salvation) baptise someone who either didn't ask for it (proxy), couldn't ask for it (dying) or perform on the child of someone who gave no indication of desiring it as a means of "saving" someone? My question is very specific and I'd like for the focus to stay on that. It's a very important issue.

To answer your question... No, even if I believed water baptism saves you, I would not baptize someone who either didn't ask for it, couldn't ask for it, nor would I perform on the child of someone who gave no indication of desiring it as a means of "saving" someone.

 

[Guitarhero]

I couldn't even post last night...the site was acting very funny...and I forgot what I was going to say lolol!

 

[Guitarhero]

It's not really that complicated other than people getting stuck at not believing it is required and not being able to get past that point...rather, this post was leaning towards the appropriateness of doing such when there is free will but not granted by the individual nor the parents of said individual. That's why I made sure and reiterated various times that, note, if it were interpreted to be necessary. I hope that's clearer. I gave it exactly as it occurred in life..this was a true life issue with someone who believes it to be necessary. To put it another way, someone thinks they are doing a soul a favor by baptising them so they can go to heaven aside from their own free will choice.

We have to remember, there are several diff. denominations represented here and I made sure to include "if one believed that water baptism were part of the salvific formula." All of us are accustomed to our church's interpretation and/or our individual one of the exact same biblical texts. Please know that I comprehend the difference between mandated water baptism, baptism of desire that never occurred physically before death but was desired by the person and granted in the spiritual realm and baptism of fire (Holy Spirit). In other words, you can be saved without physical baptism. So far, no one has given evidence that a christian is mandated to baptise somebody against his will or the will of his parents. Can you believe this was implied having been donne without appropriate consent? Shocking!!!

I provided scriptures in following posts. So, I did get a consensus that most people would not consider this the right thing to do and they backed them up through scriptures...either according to their interpretation that water baptism is not necessary (there are protestant sects who most absolutely require it) or on the personal choice issue. Most here (to my knowledge) do not believe it to be 1)valid nor 2) appropriate and backed by scripture.

So, it's truly pointing to christian duty on a direct command as interpreted by that group on those very scriptures...mandated for those who have had the gospel proclaimed. I agree with this according to the bible (the necessity of). But there is also free agency and will as well as those who have never heard nor understood the gospel message. I just didn't agree that anyone had any such right to force any type of religious practice on another. Especially in the case of children, it's the parents who decide. Whether you think you're "saving" somebody or not...not the thing to do.

One of the denom.'s mentioned was the LDS who baptise the dead of all those genealogical records of all our ancestors to LDS but explain it away that they must still give consent somehow, in the other world. Now, that part is confusing as to how it would be necessary and consensual if someone took it upon themselves to force a post-humous conversion. I find it incredibly disrespectful and a desecration to the beloved dead.

 

[Poohbear]

Volver_Alma_Gitana, did you read Crown's post where she pointed out 1 Corinthians 15:29? It says, "Else what shall thet do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? Why are they then baptized for the dead?"

Back then, some believers were baptized on behalf of others who had died unbaptized. Nothing more is known about this practice, but it obviously affirms a belief in resurrection. Paul was not approving of baptism for the dead, but illustrating his argument that the resurrection is a reality.

So no, there isn't any supporting Bible verses for baptizing people without their consent. Regardless of if someone believes baptism saves or not, baptizing someone without their consent has no saving power for their souls.

 

[Mamita]

i believe completely baptism in the water is a REQUIREMENT for salvation along with believing and changing your life, but since i believe in immersion in water, it makes it super difficult to do it secretly lol you can't be all like "eh i was just trying to drown you" lol

 

[Guitarhero]

Volver_Alma_Gitana, did you read Crown's post where she pointed out 1 Corinthians 15:29? It says, "Else what shall thet do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? Why are they then baptized for the dead?"

Back then, some believers were baptized on behalf of others who had died unbaptized. Nothing more is known about this practice, but it obviously affirms a belief in resurrection. Paul was not approving of baptism for the dead, but illustrating his argument that the resurrection is a reality.

So no, there isn't any supporting Bible verses for baptizing people without their consent. Regardless of if someone believes baptism saves or not, baptizing someone without their consent has no saving power for their souls.

I read all of them and took notes.

 

[Guitarhero]

i believe completely baptism in the water is a REQUIREMENT for salvation along with believing and changing your life, but since i believe in immersion in water, it makes it super difficult to do it secretly lol you can't be all like "eh i was just trying to drown you" lol

That's another take...thank you for that. I'm talking sprinkling with water...and/or proxy. That's a good point.

 

[Mamita]

ooooooooh sprinkling? that would be way easier yeah lol