Any liberal Christians here?

[MrsHaseeb]

Who said no one needs Jesus to get to heaven?

Who said Christ is not the only way?

I do not deal with those liberal or conservative labels.

Who said all faiths are valid? Point that out in my posts.

I respectfully ask that you do not make assumptions about the beliefs of others.

I am not being argumentative here and I apologize if you feel I've made assumptions about you. However, tolerance is essentially denial of Jesus Christ.

 

[divya]

I am not being argumentative here and I apologize if you feel I've made assumptions about you. However, tolerance is essentially denial of Jesus Christ.

Well, nothing in my posts spoke about tolerance purposely because people understand such words differently. What is your definition of "tolerance?"

 

[JaneBond007]

Scripture was written to the saints, for they are discerned only by the Spirit. All of Paul's letters were addressed to the saints, not the world. God is not interested in the world getting to know him. The world must first repent and believe the Gospel, draw nigh unto Him then He will draw nigh unto them. If no one needs Jesus to get to heaven then our Savior died in vain. The truth is in Jesus only, there is no truth outside of Him. Scripture can be twisted to say what anyone wants it to say but it never contradicts. If Christ says He is the only way, why would Paul tell the Roman believers He is not. That makes no sense. The idea of a liberal church where all faiths are valid is an Antichrist institution, period. It needs to be said. People need the truth of God. Without it, a person is bondage whether they are aware or not.

I'm confused by this. Some people are born into christian families and their infants receive the sacraments of baptism. The parents and g-dparents have the responsibility of raising the child in the faith. But what about those who don't receive infant baptism? What if their tradition is to come to Christ at the age of accountability, say, around 12? Was G-d unconcerned with those children in a christian family until they acknowledged Him? How do people know G-d more intimately without learning scripture?

I can think of Israel where some worshipped idols while Moses was up in the holy mountain receiving the Torah. Yet, when Moses came down to give it to Israel, there were those who obeyed G-d and there were those who didn't. Even today, there are people in the church, as you will, who don't know Christ but the doors are open to them. How will they find Him if He's not speaking to them through scripture? Even if they open their eyes to Christ through the actions of a faithful believer, it was obeying scripture that provided that means to see Christ in another. Somebody was scripture to that person. Christ is the Word. He came for the sick, not the well. I would think the gospels as edification for believers in the early church going through many changing and violent times.

 

[MrsHaseeb]

I'm confused by this. Some people are born into christian families and their infants receive the sacraments of baptism. The parents and g-dparents have the responsibility of raising the child in the faith. But what about those who don't receive infant baptism? What if their tradition is to come to Christ at the age of accountability, say, around 12? Was G-d unconcerned with those children in a christian family until they acknowledged Him? How do people know G-d more intimately without learning scripture?

I can think of Israel where some worshipped idols while Moses was up in the holy mountain receiving the Torah. Yet, when Moses came down to give it to Israel, there were those who obeyed G-d and there were those who didn't. Even today, there are people in the church, as you will, who don't know Christ but the doors are open to them. How will they find Him if He's not speaking to them through scripture? Even if they open their eyes to Christ through the actions of a faithful believer, it was obeying scripture that provided that means to see Christ in another. Somebody was scripture to that person. Christ is the Word. He came for the sick, not the well.

Hi. I am not sure if I should address this... I am not Catholic so I don't particularly agree with infant baptism or a tradition that says come to Christ around the age of accountability. I'm aware that you're Catholic and that's what you believe but I am not interested in the thread getting any uglier and it will if I elaborate. I'm done here.

 

[JaneBond007]

I wasn't trying to contribute to any ugliness...I was asking you to expound on the emboldened. I can comprehend your viewpoint if you elaborate on it. I'm wondering why you say that scripture is only for the saints and not those outside knowledge of Him. The baptism was an example of how that wouldn't apply. In other words, is G-d unconcerned with even a small child until he acknowledges Christ? The age of accountability refers to when someone is conscious of such a decision, which is every other tradition outside infant baptism, even within catholicism, because not everyone is a cradle catholic. Even there are people born to catholics who were never baptized until later in life. So, if you don't select to come to Christ, how do you get to Him for the scripture to apply ever to you? That's what I'm not comprehending.

 

[MrsHaseeb]

Well, nothing in my posts spoke about tolerance purposely because people understand such words differently. What is your definition of "tolerance?"

I apologize if I am misunderstanding you. Tolerance to me is the idea of peacefully coexisting with other religions and tolerating their gods and religious beliefs without preaching Christ as the only way. Tolerance to me is also the belief that those outside if Christ who never accepted Him can be saved. Even the thief on the cross accepted Christ, despite it being in the last moments of his life. He recognized Jesus as the Christ, the Son of God, had a moment of repentance and became a believer. I hope this clarifies what I meant and I do again apologize if I misunderstood you.

 

[divya]

1 Tim 2:1-4
1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;

2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

 

[MrsHaseeb]

I wasn't trying to contribute to any ugliness...I was asking you to expound on the emboldened. I can comprehend your viewpoint if you elaborate on it. I'm wondering why you say that scripture is only for the saints and not those outside knowledge of Him. The baptism was an example of how that wouldn't apply. In other words, is G-d unconcerned with even a small child until he acknowledges Christ? The age of accountability refers to when someone is conscious of such a decision, which is every other tradition outside infant baptism, even within catholicism, because not everyone is a cradle catholic. Even there are people born to catholics who were never baptized until later in life. So, if you don't select to come to Christ, how do you get to Him for the scripture to apply ever to you? That's what I'm not comprehending.

Well... I don't believe in infant baptism or in traditions that simply force a person to do religious duties once they reach the age of accountability. Based on scripture, baptism is to follow repentance usually (although God can do what He wants because He is God) per Acts 2:38. What I'm saying is, Paul's letters were addressed to the saints. Scripture is interpreted or discerned by the Spirit so how can the world interpret it? The world needs the cross preached to them by the messengers of God in order to make the choice to come to Jesus. Repentance is a work of God, so if he begins moving on a person to bring them to repentance and he leads them to the Bible he can teach them as well. However, I don't see where being born into a religion makes you apart of the body of Christ in Scripture. Becoming apart of the body of Christ happens by being born from above by the Spirit. By one Spirit are we baptized into one body... I'm referring to 1 Cor 12, not sure of the Verse as I can't look. This was not to be contentious, just explaining what I meant.

 

[divya]

I apologize if I am misunderstanding you. Tolerance to me is the idea of peacefully coexisting with other religions and tolerating their gods and religious beliefs without preaching Christ as the only way. Tolerance to me is also the belief that those outside if Christ who never accepted Him can be saved. Even the thief on the cross accepted Christ, despite it being in the last moments of his life. He recognized Jesus as the Christ, the Son of God, had a moment of repentance and became a believer. I hope this clarifies what I meant and I do again apologize if I misunderstood you.

It's alright. My posts could likely stand to be clearer but trying to work at the same time.

Ok, well I do believe that we should peacefully coexist with others, despite religious differences. BUT we should always adhere to "thus saith the Lord." Yes, Christ is the only way because it is only through Him that we are saved. I simply do not the believe that an individual is automatically excluded from salvation because their level or method of acceptance of Jesus Christ is not what some may consider the exclusive forms/methods. Other faiths are not automatically going to heaven either. Just like not all who profess Christianity will make it.

Understand your stance though...

 

[MrsHaseeb]

1 Tim 2:1-4
1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;

2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

I agree with this. Jesus is the truth. So no way to come to the knowledge of the truth without coming to Jesus

 

[MrsHaseeb]

It's alright. My posts could likely stand to be clearer but trying to work at the same time.

Ok, well I do believe that we should peacefully coexist with others, despite religious differences. BUT we should always adhere to "thus saith the Lord." Yes, Christ is the only way because it is only through Him that we are saved. I simply do not the believe that an individual is automatically excluded from salvation because their level or method of acceptance of Jesus Christ is not what some may consider the exclusive forms/methods. Other faiths are not automatically going to heaven either. Just like not all who profess Christianity will make it.

Understand your stance though...

And I dont believe that we need to force people to accept Jesus, for further clarification

 

[JaneBond007]

What do you think of the following article:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/stewart.cfm?id=1187

Brought to you with permission of Don Stewart, the Bible Explorer​

To Whom Was the Bible Written?
The appeal of the Bible is universal - addressed to all humanity. It is a book that everyone can understand. The Bible says that when Jesus spoke, "the common people heard him gladly" (Mark 12:37). The multitudes listened and followed Him. Jesus encouraged the children to be brought to Him.

Let the little children come to me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 19:14).
​

Scripture Has Universal Application
While certain parts of the Scripture are written to individuals and specific groups, even these have both special and universal application. All Scripture is beneficial.

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that everyone who belongs to God may be proficient, equipped for every good work (2 Timothy 3:16,17).
​

It Is Written In Everyday Language
One way that we know the Bible was written for everyone is the language in which it was composed. As recently as one hundred years ago, we did not possess any Greek writings that were contemporary with the New Testament. The Greek of the New Testament was different from the classical Greek of Plato and Sophocles. Most scholars speculated that it was some special kind of "Holy Ghost" language – not the ordinary speech of that day.
This all changed at the end of the nineteenth century. In a garbage dump in Egypt the discovery was made of the letters, contracts, receipts, etc. of ordinary people who lived at the same time as Jesus. It became clear from these writings that the New Testament was written in the same common, everyday language of the people, not some special language. This reinforces the idea that the Bible was written to the masses, not just to an elite few.
The Bible Is An Understandable Book
The Bible has been written in such a way that everyone can understand it. This, of course, does not mean that everyone will understand it or that any one person will understand everything in it. Neither does it mean that a person will understand it the first time they read it. The more one reads, and studies the Bible, the more it will be understood.
Everyone Is Held Responsible To Obey Its Teachings
Scripture assumes its message is clear because everyone is held responsible to respond to it. The Bible claims to have universal authority over all people everywhere. There are only two categories of people according to the Bible, believers and unbelievers. The New Testament says.

The one who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and the one who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on that person (John 3:36).
​

The fact that the Bible separates humanity into these two categories is another indication that all people are held responsible to believe its message.
Summary
The evidence demonstrates that the Bible was written to every human being, not to just a select few. We now understand the language of the New Testament was the common written and spoken language of the time. The Bible was not written in some special holy language to meet the needs of a few. Scripture has been composed in such a way as to be understandable to the masses. Furthermore, God will hold everyone responsible as to how they receive His Word. This is another indication that the Bible was written with everyone in mind. Therefore every person needs to pay close attention to its message.

 

[MrsHaseeb]

What do you think of the following article:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/stewart.cfm?id=1187

Brought to you with permission of Don Stewart, the Bible Explorer
To Whom Was the Bible Written?
The appeal of the Bible is universal - addressed to all humanity. It is a book that everyone can understand. The Bible says that when Jesus spoke, "the common people heard him gladly" (Mark 12:37). The multitudes listened and followed Him. Jesus encouraged the children to be brought to Him.
Let the little children come to me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 19:14).
Scripture Has Universal Application
While certain parts of the Scripture are written to individuals and specific groups, even these have both special and universal application. All Scripture is beneficial.
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that everyone who belongs to God may be proficient, equipped for every good work (2 Timothy 3:16,17).
It Is Written In Everyday Language
One way that we know the Bible was written for everyone is the language in which it was composed. As recently as one hundred years ago, we did not possess any Greek writings that were contemporary with the New Testament. The Greek of the New Testament was different from the classical Greek of Plato and Sophocles. Most scholars speculated that it was some special kind of "Holy Ghost" language – not the ordinary speech of that day.
This all changed at the end of the nineteenth century. In a garbage dump in Egypt the discovery was made of the letters, contracts, receipts, etc. of ordinary people who lived at the same time as Jesus. It became clear from these writings that the New Testament was written in the same common, everyday language of the people, not some special language. This reinforces the idea that the Bible was written to the masses, not just to an elite few.
The Bible Is An Understandable Book
The Bible has been written in such a way that everyone can understand it. This, of course, does not mean that everyone will understand it or that any one person will understand everything in it. Neither does it mean that a person will understand it the first time they read it. The more one reads, and studies the Bible, the more it will be understood.
Everyone Is Held Responsible To Obey Its Teachings
Scripture assumes its message is clear because everyone is held responsible to respond to it. The Bible claims to have universal authority over all people everywhere. There are only two categories of people according to the Bible, believers and unbelievers. The New Testament says.
The one who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and the one who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on that person (John 3:36).
The fact that the Bible separates humanity into these two categories is another indication that all people are held responsible to believe its message.
Summary
The evidence demonstrates that the Bible was written to every human being, not to just a select few. We now understand the language of the New Testament was the common written and spoken language of the time. The Bible was not written in some special holy language to meet the needs of a few. Scripture has been composed in such a way as to be understandable to the masses. Furthermore, God will hold everyone responsible as to how they receive His Word. This is another indication that the Bible was written with everyone in mind. Therefore every person needs to pay close attention to its message.

I don't think anything of the article. A child can consciously decide to accept Jesus and no one should forbid a child from doing so. I'm talking about specifically having a doctrine that children born into the religion are to be baptized as infants and come to Christ at a certain age. A person can go through the motions but yet their hearts are far from Jesus. Coming to Christ is an inner work, a listening to the voice of God within and no age is exempt from it. Samuel was dedicated from the womb and served in the temple from his youth so I'm not saying anything is wrong with those things. Levitical priests were also born into the priesthood so again... I'm not against children being born and raised and taught the ways of the Lord.

As far as scripture... Its not a universal message and everyone cannot understand it. This is why Jesus spoke in parables, and why the Scripture says things of God are discerned by the Spirit. This is why Jesus in John 17 only prayed for those given to him by God. The Verse posted from Timothy says those who "belong to God", not the world. While all souls belong to God since he is the creator, those who he reveals himself to are those born from above, in the world, not of the world.

To end, I want everyone to cone to repentance and be saved just as does God. But my head is not in the.clouds and I know that won't happen. Scripture doesn't lie. All I can do though is get on my face before God and pray for mercy and grace for me and those who will choose Jesus. My choice is to live for Jesus, not out of compulsion, but because I choose to and because I love Him. That's the best I can tell you.

 

[JaneBond007]

You're focusing on baptism...I'm not focusing on baptism but only used it as one example. The article is not talking of baptism...but who the bible was made for. It's just a general question with some scripture provided. I'd never quite heard the opinion that scripture is only for believers.

I'll provide the scripture cited:

2Ti 3:16

All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: .


And maybe, this should be continued for anybody interested in another thread...didn't mean to derail the op's thread.

 

[MrsHaseeb]

You're focusing on baptism...I'm not focusing on baptism but only used it as one example. The article is not talking of baptism...but who the bible was made for. It's just a general question with some scripture provided. I'd never quite heard the opinion that scripture is only for believers.

I'll provide the scripture cited:

2Ti 3:16

All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: .

And maybe, this should be continued for anybody interested in another thread...didn't mean to derail the op's thread.

JaneBond007 I was using baptism as an example, I apologize if it seemed as though I was attacking or focusing on one thing. That wasn't my intention. As far as Scripture being only for believers, isn't that who it was addressed to from the beginning? The only message the world needs is REPENT. How else does the Bible apply to the world? It is to teach us how to live once we have repented.

Not looking to further discuss. I don't see the point.

Apologies to OP for derailing the thread as well.

 

[Laela]

Well if a pastor/ spiritual leader is relying solely on God's Word and the Holy Ghost to teach, I don't see how that is intolerance. It's straight Word, that could be an offense to the hearer only IF it's not delivered in love. God is a jealous God and we learn to hate what He hates.

From my pov, there really is a difference between (a) rejecting what others believe because of what we already believe, and(b) enforcing/imposing one's beliefs onto others.

 

[Leigh]

It's alright. My posts could likely stand to be clearer but trying to work at the same time.

Ok, well I do believe that we should peacefully coexist with others, despite religious differences. BUT we should always adhere to "thus saith the Lord." Yes, Christ is the only way because it is only through Him that we are saved. I simply do not the believe that an individual is automatically excluded from salvation because their level or method of acceptance of Jesus Christ is not what some may consider the exclusive forms/methods. Other faiths are not automatically going to heaven either. Just like not all who profess Christianity will make it.

Understand your stance though...

Yes, we are to live peaceably with all men.

Rom 12:18
If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.

However, there is only one way.

John 14:6-7
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life:no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also:and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

 

[divya]

Yes, we are to live peaceably with all men.

Rom 12:18
If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.

However, there is only one way.

John 14:6-7
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life:no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also:and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

Absolutely! And once again, how much of Jesus Christ an individual knows or rather has been exposed to and must therefore accept, the Lord alone knows. But it is through acceptance of Him, no matter how limited their exposure, that they receive salvation...

 

[Leigh]

Absolutely! And once again, how much of Jesus Christ an individual knows or rather has been exposed to and must therefore accept, the Lord alone knows. But it is through acceptance of Him, no matter how limited their exposure, that they receive salvation...

Actually, it's deeper. Not everyone who says Lord, Lord shall enter the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Ecclesiastes 12:13
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

Gods commandments , whatever they happen to be, will get us into the pearly gates. We can go more in depth discussing this but in the end we can't lean unto our own understanding. We have to follow the directives given to us.

His ways are higher than our ways.

Isaiah 55:8-9
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Proverbs 3:1-6
My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments:
For length of days, and long life, and peace, shall they add to thee.
Let not mercy and truth forsake thee: bind them about thy neck; write them upon the table of thine heart:
So shalt thou find favour and good understanding in the sight of God and man.
Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

Either we will follow God or follow our own selves, which way do you believe is best...?

 

[JaneBond007]

Heaven was opened by Jesus...that's heaven made accessible via Jesus. If someone didn't know Him on earth and they lived the truth and goodness to the best of their ability (G-d knows the heart), maybe their beatific vision in heaven differs. Shrugs. The more abundant life on earth through Christ is truly a spiritual blessing and I believer there are levels of that.

 

[Leigh]

Heaven was opened by Jesus...that's heaven made accessible via Jesus. If someone didn't know Him on earth and they lived the truth and goodness to the best of their ability (G-d knows the heart), maybe their beatific vision in heaven differs. Shrugs. The more abundant life on earth through Christ is truly a spiritual blessing and I believer there are levels of that.

Jesus says differently. There is a specific way to get to heaven and works is not the way. We are saved by grace. We must obey God. We must do His will and not lean unto our own understanding.

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Matt 7:21-23
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 

[Galadriel]

Jesus says differently. There is a specific way to get to heaven and works is not the way. We are saved by grace. We must obey God. We must do His will and not lean unto our own understanding.

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Matt 7:21-23
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

JB (like me) believes that it is possible for invincibly ignorant persons to be saved, but it is all still through Christ's grace and His merits. Invincible ignorance is when a person through no fault of his or her own, has not known or understood the message of the Gospel.

I would also include in this category the severely mentally disabled, aborted fetuses, infants and very young children who die. They obviously have not heard the Gospel or were able to be baptized, so what happens to their souls?

I agree that we do not merit grace or our salvation. We are saved by faith through grace, and it is a free gift (so I think it makes sense that this free gift, in God's mercy can be applied to the invincibly ignorant) however Scripture makes it clear that when we reject God's grace or turn away (mortal sin), we bring condemnation on ourselves.

Even the invincibly ignorant adult (one in full possession of his reason or mental faculties) must cooperate with God's grace in his life in whatever way God is drawing him. Scripture tells us that God has written certain laws on our hearts, and there are things that we know by nature are good or evil. So even someone in an invincibly ignorant situation may not have heard of the Church, or the Bible, etc. but to the extent that he adheres to objective morality and cooperates with God's grace, it is possible to be saved. But I reiterate, this is all through Christ's merits through the Cross and His grace--not apart from them.

 

[JaneBond007]

^^^That was one of the sinkers for me to come into the Church. Without an understanding that others outside make it, I would have no true belief in the Church. It's not that G-d can't do what He wants, but that it would be plainly unfair. He is never unjust and He's very gracious and giving, obviously. What I cannot palate is the mentality that almost delights in being the supposed "elect" at the near negligent concern for those outside, almost as though people want others to die. But what if...what if....

That ought make every believer incredibly humbled and appreciative that they have the abundant life while on earth. You wrack up more graces. I think this is a lot of what OP Mena was alluding to, among others. I have to remember the words of Father, "the L-rd opens up the doors of the Church to all, believers and unbelievers." It's a starting point, no? Ultimately, the knowledge of Christ and understanding leading to belief is the work of the H-ly Spirit and acceptance past that point is up to the individual. But that doesn't preclude those who have no such exposure, knowledge nor comprehension. Thank Gd that law is written upon the hearts of all men. How could He condemn us if it weren't? Shrugs. Still possible, but that's not what He's done.

 

[Leigh]

^^^That was one of the sinkers for me to come into the Church. Without an understanding that others outside make it, I would have no true belief in the Church. It's not that G-d can't do what He wants, but that it would be plainly unfair. He is never unjust and He's very gracious and giving, obviously. What I cannot palate is the mentality that almost delights in being the supposed "elect" at the near negligent concern for those outside, almost as though people want others to die. But what if...what if....

That ought make every believer incredibly humbled and appreciative that they have the abundant life while on earth. You wrack up more graces. I think this is a lot of what OP Mena was alluding to, among others. I have to remember the words of Father, "the L-rd opens up the doors of the Church to all, believers and unbelievers." It's a starting point, no? Ultimately, the knowledge of Christ and understanding leading to belief is the work of the H-ly Spirit and acceptance past that point is up to the individual. But that doesn't preclude those who have no such exposure, knowledge nor comprehension. Thank Gd that law is written upon the hearts of all men. How could He condemn us if it weren't? Shrugs. Still possible, but that's not what He's done.

God will always make a way. God gives free will. God is the one who knows the heart and call those who are His to him.

God gives the increase, therefore, seeds can be planted, weeded, pruned, and watered. But in the end, it is up to Him. And while He doesn't want anyone to perish, He knows some are not His.

 

[divya]

Actually, it's deeper. Not everyone who says Lord, Lord shall enter the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Ecclesiastes 12:13
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

Gods commandments , whatever they happen to be, will get us into the pearly gates. We can go more in depth discussing this but in the end we can't lean unto our own understanding. We have to follow the directives given to us.

His ways are higher than our ways.

Isaiah 55:8-9
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Proverbs 3:1-6
My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments:
For length of days, and long life, and peace, shall they add to thee.
Let not mercy and truth forsake thee: bind them about thy neck; write them upon the table of thine heart:
So shalt thou find favour and good understanding in the sight of God and man.
Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

Either we will follow God or follow our own selves, which way do you believe is best...?

Yes, I completely agree...and Romans 2 speaks to this. It is deeper and no one knows the exposure of each person accept God Himself. As stated earlier, the investigative judgment of the Lord is very serious.

 

[divya]

JB (like me) believes that it is possible for invincibly ignorant persons to be saved, but it is all still through Christ's grace and His merits. Invincible ignorance is when a person through no fault of his or her own, has not known or understood the message of the Gospel.

I would also include in this category the severely mentally disabled, aborted fetuses, infants and very young children who die. They obviously have not heard the Gospel or were able to be baptized, so what happens to their souls?

I agree that we do not merit grace or our salvation. We are saved by faith through grace, and it is a free gift (so I think it makes sense that this free gift, in God's mercy can be applied to the invincibly ignorant) however Scripture makes it clear that when we reject God's grace or turn away (mortal sin), we bring condemnation on ourselves.

Even the invincibly ignorant adult (one in full possession of his reason or mental faculties) must cooperate with God's grace in his life in whatever way God is drawing him. Scripture tells us that God has written certain laws on our hearts, and there are things that we know by nature are good or evil. So even someone in an invincibly ignorant situation may not have heard of the Church, or the Bible, etc. but to the extent that he adheres to objective morality and cooperates with God's grace, it is possible to be saved. But I reiterate, this is all through Christ's merits through the Cross and His grace--not apart from them.

Amen and amen. You said better than I could put it.

 

[ellebelle88]

Mena I know exactly what you mean when you say you want to be a Christian but a liberal and tolerant one. Most Christianity does not teach you to be respectful or tolerant of others. For me, that's not coming from a place of love. Who am I to judge others? That's for God to do. As a Christian, I'm supposed to obey the 10 commandments, pray, repent, and treat others like I would like to be treated. Meaning: love thy neighbors.

Most churches I go to are sexist, homophobic, and demean other religions. Craziness. I read through some of the discussions being had in this thread and on the Christianity forum and often shake my head. I don't respond because it wouldn't be coming from a place of love and sometimes, its just not worth the argument.

I can tell you how I've started to live and you can decide what you want to keep or listen to: God is love. Which means that you were made in the image of God, so there is something supreme and godly about you. Whatever you do, do it in Love and let that be your guiding principal. I've found a great church where I'm currently located and the pastor explains the Word, but very seldom does the preacher past judgment. Meditate. Listen. Pray and although its much easier said than done, seek to develop a relationship with the Supreme Being (who is not a MAN in Heaven! Much greater and more powerful than that). Have a personal relationship with God which doesn't rely upon others telling you what you should do or believe.

When things are rough and people try to tell me that it's not about me, but what God wants for me, I disagree. God gave us free-will. The things that are happening in my life that are causing me stress and turmoil is because I'm not operating from a place of love and like Karma, its coming back to me. It's a life learning lesson but its not because God didn't want me to have it or is putting me through some test.

Find a good church and don't let ANYONE tell you that you shouldn't be respectful and tolerant of others who have a different religion or sexual preference. Good comes in many different ways and many different forms. If it didn't, God wouldn't have made the world so diverse.

Many blessings and much love.

 

[ellebelle88]

By the way, I hope that no one reads my post and attribute it to any New Age kind of thinking. I am from the south and was raised in the southern Baptist and Methodist churches.

 

[disgtgyal]

Mena I know exactly what you mean when you say you want to be a Christian but a liberal and tolerant one. Most Christianity does not teach you to be respectful or tolerant of others. For me, that's not coming from a place of love. Who am I to judge others? That's for God to do. As a Christian, I'm supposed to obey the 10 commandments, pray, repent, and treat others like I would like to be treated. Meaning: love thy neighbors.

Most churches I go to are sexist, homophobic, and demean other religions. Craziness. I read through some of the discussions being had in this thread and on the Christianity forum and often shake my head. I don't respond because it wouldn't be coming from a place of love and sometimes, its just not worth the argument.

I can tell you how I've started to live and you can decide what you want to keep or listen to: God is love. Which means that you were made in the image of God, so there is something supreme and godly about you. Whatever you do, do it in Love and let that be your guiding principal. I've found a great church where I'm currently located and the pastor explains the Word, but very seldom does the preacher past judgment. Meditate. Listen. Pray and although its much easier said than done, seek to develop a relationship with the Supreme Being (who is not a MAN in Heaven! Much greater and more powerful than that). Have a personal relationship with God which doesn't rely upon others telling you what you should do or believe.

When things are rough and people try to tell me that it's not about me, but what God wants for me, I disagree. God gave us free-will. The things that are happening in my life that are causing me stress and turmoil is because I'm not operating from a place of love and like Karma, its coming back to me. It's a life learning lesson but its not because God didn't want me to have it or is putting me through some test.

Find a good church and don't let ANYONE tell you that you shouldn't be respectful and tolerant of others who have a different religion or sexual preference. Good comes in many different ways and many different forms. If it didn't, God wouldn't have made the world so diverse.

Many blessings and much love.

I agree with most of your post and I get where you're coming from. I frequent the Christian forum and although I'm sure a lot of the ladies may mean well in their discussion it often times comes off apathetic and Bible thumping. I think we as Christians forget that we are to bring sinners to repentance and you don't necessarily do so by quoting every verse from Genesis to Revelations, its by demonstrating Christ's love not by shoving the sinners prayer down their throat and then giving them a list of things they can't do (I've witnessed that way more times than I care to have) ... I too believe the most important thing is cultivating a relationship with God through Christ and with that comes direction, and peace and you are less likely to rely on pastor or Bishop when it comes to living right, because most of their do's and don'ts is based on what was socially acceptable for Christians of their generation, but if the focus was on developing a personal relationship with God then the holy spirit would convict you on the things that need to be changed. I agree that we should be tolerable and respectful of other religions, but I don't believe we should be accepting in the sense of embracing their beliefs. What I don't understand is why Christians get so much heat for being exclusive, our faith is based on Christ being the only way to salvation, what kind of Christians would we be if we say Christ is the way but not the only way... Just my thoughts...

 

[ellebelle88]

I agree with most of your post and I get where you're coming from. I frequent the Christian forum and although I'm sure a lot of the ladies may mean well in their discussion it often times comes off apathetic and Bible thumping. I think we as Christians forget that we are to bring sinners to repentance and you don't necessarily do so by quoting every verse from Genesis to Revelations, its by demonstrating Christ's love not by shoving the sinners prayer down their throat and then giving them a list of things they can't do (I've witnessed that way more times than I care to have) ... I too believe the most important thing is cultivating a relationship with God through Christ and with that comes direction, and peace and you are less likely to rely on pastor or Bishop when it comes to living right, because most of their do's and don'ts is based on what was socially acceptable for Christians of their generation, but if the focus was on developing a personal relationship with God then the holy spirit would convict you on the things that need to be changed. I agree that we should be tolerable and respectful of other religions, but I don't believe we should be accepting in the sense of embracing their beliefs. What I don't understand is why Christians get so much heat for being exclusive, our faith is based on Christ being the only way to salvation, what kind of Christians would we be if we say Christ is the way but not the only way... Just my thoughts...

To the bolded, being a Christian who is respectful of other religion and people's cultures and values does not mean accepting their beliefs. I am not sure how you arrived at that consensus. Respectful simply means not casting judgment or damning them to Hell simply because they don't follow Christianity.

One thing I didn't mention is that pastors and preachers are mere humans too and after reading that Juanita Bynum thread, many of them fall victim to some of the most egregious sins of the world. Our faith and trust should be in God. That's why its important for people to establish their own relationship with God rather than relying on people on forums or preachers telling them what they should do to be a good Christian.