3c? 4c? Unfortunately, it has always mattered.

[msa]

i see it alot. I think people sometimes so badly want to believe in the stereotypes that when we see someone with who is light skinned with 4ab or dark with 1b- 3b we automatically negate and rationalize. I have seen so many people rationalize why so and so looks x and has y hair and it's very sad, how hard many try to make the categories gospel.

I'm going to keep my eyes open from now on. Maybe I just haven't been paying attention, and like I said, there aren't that many natural's to begin with.

 

[msa]

The light skinned ladies are bone laxed and everyone thinks the dark skinned ladies are wearing lace front or got INDIAN in thier family.

The issue is why do you need to "make that determination"?

I am sure she sees it a lot too. She is just probably one of those people that find it hard to believe dark skinned woman can actually have naturally 1a-3b hair. Or find it hard to believe light skinned women can have 4b hair and be "100% black." One of those excuse having folks.

I don't think it's impossible nor do I find it hard to believe, I just haven't seen it. That's why I asked the question. Obviously these people exist, I just want to see a real life example.

It's kind of like wl 4b hair. I know it exists, I just haven't seen it irl. No excuses, no assuming folks are wearing weave or are Indian...it's just one of the times I need to see it to believe it.

 

[NerdSauce]

I think the bit that makes the whole 'conflating the issue of skin color with the issue of hair type' even MORE ridiculous is that really, dark and light are relative. I would consider myself 'medium brown'. Most black women do, really. For me its mostly because my father is really dark, as is much of his side of the family, whereas my mother's side is more like me. We're definitely not light. For me, especially in my area (Connecticut) my skin tone is average brown. A little father south, in DC where I go to school-- not so much. People are picking out these people in the media and going "this person is soooo light! thats not the AVERAGE black woman!" "This person is soo much darker, i can identify with her" But from thread to thread, person to person, location to location what people consider 'average' or 'medium' is really really different.

There *is no default*. I feel like that should be obvious by now. There's no default hair type, hair color, or skin color. And I think if you can by products marketed to people that look NOTHING like you, you should be able to listen to good information coming from everyone as well. Just my 2 cents. Hair is hair is hair. More often than not if you run your finger along a healthy strand it'd feel the same no matter whose head it came off of. And when it comes to listening to people whose hair doesnt quite look like yours, at worse you get a little extra information, right?

 

[Junebug D]

The light skinned ladies are bone laxed and everyone thinks the dark skinned ladies are wearing lace front or got INDIAN in thier family.

Basically. I saw light-skinned 4bs a lot because I grew up with them, as kids. Children didn't get perms or touch-ups and all of that so often as they do when they are older. In my adult life, I saw it often on Nappturality. I was always looking for fellow 4bs, (and they seemed rare to me, period-- probably because so many do relax, texturize, etc) but those I found were all across the color spectrum.

And then there's the mirror hanging on my wall...

But then again, it seems opinions vary on what is light-skinned anyway, so... To be honest, I rarely ever thought of myself being light-skinned (and being afforded special allowances or privileges that some believe come along with it) until I got older and people (men folks ) started saying so. It was like skin color was meaningless when you didn't have the hair (long or "good") to match. I sat around and b****ed about the "light skinned girls with long hair" in the music videos with my darker friends and nobody thought anything of it. It's odd the issues you get during childhood and even beyond.

 

[diva24]

I don't think it's impossible nor do I find it hard to believe, I just haven't seen it. That's why I asked the question. Obviously these people exist, I just want to see a real life example.

It's kind of like wl 4b hair. I know it exists, I just haven't seen it irl. No excuses, no assuming folks are wearing weave or are Indian...it's just one of the times I need to see it to believe it.

Sure! I am glad I do not live where you live.

 

[diva24]

Basically. I saw light-skinned 4bs a lot because I grew up with them, as kids. Children didn't get perms or touch-ups and all of that so often as they do when they are older. In my adult life, I saw it often on Nappturality. I was always looking for fellow 4bs, (and they seemed rare to me, period-- probably because so many do relax, texturize, etc) but those I found were all across the color spectrum.

And then there's the mirror hanging on my wall...

But then again, it seems opinions vary on what is light-skinned anyway, so... To be honest, I rarely ever thought of myself being light-skinned (and being afforded special allowances or privileges that some believe come along with it) until I got older and people (men folks ) started saying so. It was like skin color was meaningless when you didn't have the hair (long or "good") to match. I sat around and b****ed about the "light skinned girls with long hair" in the music videos with my darker friends and nobody thought anything of it. It's odd the issues you get during childhood and even beyond.

People can be deliciously ignorant! I can not see it, therefore it does not exist!

 

[msa]

People can be deliciously ignorant! I can not see it, therefore it does not exist!

Riiiiiiight, that's exactly what I said.

It's a given that it exists. I just want to see it in person since I haven't yet (or at least, I haven't noticed it).

 

[diva24]

Riiiiiiight, that's exactly what I said.

It's a given that it exists. I just want to see it in person since I haven't yet (or at least, I haven't noticed it).

I was not talking to you in that qoute. I qoute who I am responding to. I already responded to your post. I do not do this often but I will repeat what I said to you. I am glad I do not live where you live. I hope you see more than what youhave seen so far in life. Diversity is awesome. All black people do not follow stereotypes.

 

[FlowerHair]

Thread Derailment Imminent. Danger, Danger!

Is LHCF the twilight zone...

 

[crumbling_images]

I totally & completely agree!! Thanks for the post.

 

[Crackers Phinn]

Since this thread already has fiddy-leven tangents.

I think that there is a huge misconception/delusion in the natural hair world that black women are fixated on 'straight, flowy' hair. It's always been my thought that anywhere on the Type 3 scale is the coveted hair. Mainly because of the perception (misconception) that it's 'roll outta bed and go' hair.

If you check out fotki's, long hair regardless of texture gets a big up. But if length is lacking, then curls and uniform coils get the most comments.

 

[vainღ♥♡jane]

I have a question...where is everyone seeing all these light skinned 4ab chicks and dark skinned 1a-3c chicks? Irl there aren't even enough women wearing their hair naturally for me to make that determination...but of the naturals I've seen, I haven't seen any of the aforementioned women walking around.

this is what i wanna know. i only see that on here. and then a lot of the darker women with type 1-3 hair are from other countries when i look at their fotkis.​

 

[anon123]

I have a question...where is everyone seeing all these light skinned 4ab chicks and dark skinned 1a-3c chicks? Irl there aren't even enough women wearing their hair naturally for me to make that determination...but of the naturals I've seen, I haven't seen any of the aforementioned women walking around.

I grew up in southern california like you and I saw them. I remember the boy I had a crush on in 2nd grade was a dark skinned boy with marker-sized curls (Elroy, are you out there?). Also one of my best friends in elementary was darker than me with what I guess was 2c/3a hair (Jawanna, might you be reading this?). One of my cousins is very light but has type 4 hair. Another cousin of mine is darker than me with type 4 hair but it is heat trained. It was always down her back but at last report it's now "down to her booty". I'm sure people assume it's a weave. So these folks are running around so cal.

 

[music-bnatural-smile]

i was thinkin about it ive definitely seen LS girls with jacked up roots... but they were relaxed who knows what their type was

 

[Solitude]

I didn't get a chance to read through this whole thread, but OP, I agree with your first post completely. After page 4 I stopped reading when the discussion began to digress, IMO.....

I mean, I can see for myself that the most popular black entertainers have light skin and curly/ wavy hair and/or weaves. *shrugs* As someone aspiring to transition, I have trained myself not to pay that much attention to curly hair types that I know I don't have. I still love their hair, but I know my hair isn't like that. Maybe I should open my mind...

 

[aa9746]

And let's stop conflating skin color with hair texture. I see plenty of dark chicks with hair in the 3s and plenty of light chicks with hair in the 4s. Speaking as a monoracial light-skinned 4b person...

Very true, as an Elementary teacher I see this a lot because most of the girls wear their natural hair so I see a lot of textures. In fact my darkest student (darker than dark brown) this past school year had silky curly hair. My cousin's cousin on her father's side is dark with silky curls. I personally have light skin (lighter than light brown) relatives with 4 type hair. Genetics determine how our traits are expressed.

 

[GoingNatural]

I hear you. I really do. *sneaks off to rearead your post*

But, then again as I tried to state clearly in my my disclaimer, a lot of my post doesn't have anything to do with what you specifically stated and has more to do with other points that were raised in the thread. I mean, your post/thread is not the first to bring this issue up. I also recall a thread from Bubblin' (sp) where she brought up the issues of not being listened to because of the 3ish texture of her hair.

Ummm...I am not saying that I disagree with you...because in a lot of ways I don't but...I mean, the title of your thread did suggest that you might be listened to more if you had more highly textured hair. Maybe it was just to grab attention but judging from the responses and co-signing that went on in the thread I think the title of the thread struck a nerve and that it was the source for a lot of the discussion...not whether or not you were correct to say that water is not drying...which, clearly you were as it is not.

My entire post agreed with your OP point #1 ...i just reiterated my point in this thread

 

[andromeda]

DISCLAIMER: This thread is partially in response to the thread started by GoingNatural on her difficulties of getting women to listen to her hair advice as someone who does not have 4a/b or highly textured hair. That being said, most of the comments and/or observations in this post are not in direct response to anything GoingNatural said or posted but are in response to something that has been bothering me for awhile. She has lovely hair, a lot of the points she brought up in her post were vaild and no one should use her hair texture as a reason to invalidate the hard work and effort she puts into having lovely hair. That being said...

1) Some hair care practices are universal.--I think that there are a lot of "general" hair care principles that are applicable and can be beneficial to all hair types. An example would be protective styling. Whether you like to practice it or not, protective styling is generally beneficial for all hair typles.
2) Hair texture DOES play a role in how successful certain hair techniques are.--Whether or not Andre got it right or not with his limited hair typing system I think that most of us can acknowledge that there is a difference in how certain hair textures respond to different techniques and/or products. Especially those of us with multiple hair textures on our heads. That being said, what work for one 3c might not work for another and what works for a 1b just might work for a 4a. Ultimately, it is up to the individual and how willing they are to try different techniques. However, as someone else has stated there is a LOT of hair advice out there.
3) People are more likely to take advice from someone who is like them. AND it makes sense.--It makes sense to gravitate towards the advice that comes from someone who is "like me." As someone with dry skin that almost never has acne, it is unlikely that I will take advice on my skin care regimen from someone with oily acne prone skin. Is it possible the same things could work for both of us? Yes. Does it make more sense to take advice from someone else with dry sking that is not prone to acne? Yes.
4) While it can be frustrating, it doesn't really make any sense to deny that a lot of the variations among Blacks, especially as it realtes to our hair and skin color, are a result of mixing.--I understand that as a lighter skinned BLack person it can be frustrating to work hard at caring for your hair and to have all of your success attributed to being mixed or lighter skinned. But ya know what? As a darker skinned woman I am tired of people assuming that I can't grow long hair because I have dark skin. Or automatically assuming that it's not mine. I am tired of seeing little dark skinned girls with low self esteem because they rarely see women who look "like" them held up as beautiful. I am also tired of hearing ignorant young men call me and women who look like me "dark butts." I am tired of people assuming that I am going to hate on a lighter skinned woman just because she is lighter skinned. The fact that Halle Berry is considered the most beautiful Black woman in the world burns my grits. Why does a Black woman have to have lighter skin or European features (in her case, rhinoplasty) to be considered beautiful by the masses at large? Before you get mad at me, think about it. Is it ugly? Yes. Does it make it any less true? No. If you think I am lying please spend 5-10 minutes watching BET. (Anything more might be tramatic)

Is any of this the fault of lighter skinned women? HECK NAW! But, I think that it is somewhat undermining for us to pretend that the world, and especially the Black community, doesn't see us as different.

5) People with "looser" textured hair are treated differently than those with more tightly curled hair. --Let's admit it. I have 4a/3c hair that forms loose s curls in the back and coils at the front. Since I went natural there has been no end to the stream of support I have received from most people to stay natural. One of my sorors has 4b/cish hair and people are constantly asking her, "When are you going to do something to your hair?" It would be silly for me to deny that the affirmation that I get from outsiders about how nice my natural hair looks doesn't have something to do with my motivation to stay natural. It would also be silly for me to deny that she has had a more difficult time staying natural when everyone, including members of her own family, think she should "slap a relaxer" on her head. This mentality isn't new. All we have to do is talk to our parents about how different Afros were perceived back in the 70's. While I am not suggesting that there is anything to pity about someone with more highly textured hair it really is annoying when I hear someone like one of my other sorority sisters (3b) brag about how she has been natural her whole life and never had a relaxer. Um, well chick, no one ever told you, you NEEDED a relaxer. I am not saying that we don't all face pressure, I just think that it is important that we acknowledge differences.

*sighs* There is so much more that could be said, and it a lot of ways I am sure that I have said too much. That being said, I think that it is important that we all CELEBRATE the beauty we see in eachother...which includes the differences.​

Rational. Thoughtful. Well-said. Esp the bolded, which sometimes makes me You broke it down.

Also, each time some one presents exceptions to a particular statement in the larger issue at hand or ad hominem assumptions, it only serves as subterfuge for an otherwise constructive discussion.

 

[ladylibra]

I agree with most of what you said and it was never my goal to undermine the expeirences of lighter skinned black women.

That being said, I am going to politely disagree with you on the highlighted point. I agree, that you are not see as white. But Black is definitely not Black. Whites and the media in general tend to play up the differences in beauty between dark skinned Black women and lighter skinned Black women constantly. It's the reason it's okay for white guys to have a crush on Halle, Beyonce or Rhianna...they seem exotic. But darker skinned Black women are just...Black. Again, I am not trying to undermine your expeirences or your points but I have gone to all white school my entire life and this has been my observation.

For the record - OP, I never thought you were undermining my experience personally.

I grew up in a city where Black people make up 3% of the population, and I was related to almost everyone in that 3%. By my observation around all these white people, lighter-skinned blacks were not "exotic." The darker-skinned ones were. White boys wanted a brown or darker-skinned woman... white girls wanted a brown or darker-skinned guy. It was the black men who wanted the lighter-skinned women. It was the black women who wanted a lighter-skinned man.

I realized then that everyone in the world was like my little hometown. When I left, I proved myself right. Now I live in a city where 25% of the population is Black, and views tend to be much more varied. What annoys me is people who can't open up their minds and look beyond themselves. Not so much on this board, where we may not agree but at least we consider each other's opinions. We can have these discussions and it not blow up into a war at least, I'm hoping it stays that way...

 

[Geminigirl]

I totally agree with you on this and I notice it a lot when ppl comment on others photos who have a defined curl and say "you have a nice texture." What is a nice texture??? I feel like it's the same as saying someone has "good hair." BUT, no doubt, it's "easier" logistically and socially to maintain hair with a curl pattern and the difficulty faced by sisters who do not have a discernible curl should not be dismissed, ignored, or trivialized. I'm going to step out on a limb here and say that this distinction is somewhat analogous (not the same by any means, but a parallel) to white privilege. Hope someone doesn't get mad at me for that statement (ducks and runs for cover).

well nice texture to me is just that. The curl or wave pattern of someones hair. Shoot I think I have a nice texture and I think my sister does too. And shoot we do have good hair. It's healthy and growing! For me personally I love waves especially shiny waves so I may think someone has a nice texture because of that.

 

[ladylibra]

Ooops, meant to address this earlier...

thats weird, alicia keys and halle barry seem like reg ole black people to me... in terms of skin color...even beyonce isnt light skinned to me...

Well, I do think Alicia is rather light but I've been saying forever that Beyonce is brown. She just works extra hard at pulling the wool over people's eyes.

 

[Carrie A]

I have a question...where is everyone seeing all these light skinned 4ab chicks and dark skinned 1a-3c chicks? Irl there aren't even enough women wearing their hair naturally for me to make that determination...but of the naturals I've seen, I haven't seen any of the aforementioned women walking around.

I think the more Blacks you come into contact with in general the more you see both sides of the spectrum hair textures/ skin shades and combinations thereof. Plus you tend to see more naturals in certain areas too. As for hair board world IDK. I remember this thread, althought the title makes me cringe there are some members representing these phenotypes.

http://www.longhaircareforum.com/showthread.php?t=272009


Good points OP! I admit I was one that thought hair care tecniques between 3c/4a and 4b could not be that different (I'm not talking about hair politics ) strictly management. Maybe because I spent so much time on NP when I was going natural. I was taking general advice from every type of natural head as long as there was some texture to it. I had an idea that many techniques work across board. But Mwedzi's thread a while back when she was struggling with whether to stay relaxed opened my eyes to real differences that I was not able to relate to. So I can appreciate the focus on same hair type advice that some board members have. (I still give hair advice though ).

 

[cmw45]

Rational. Thoughtful. Well-said. Esp the bolded, which sometimes makes me You broke it down.

Also, each time some one presents exceptions to a particular statement in the larger issue at hand or ad hominem assumptions, it only serves as subterfuge for an otherwise constructive discussion.

Thank you.

I feel like that is the point. I am not asking you to agree with me. And I am not saying that I will ultimately agree with you, but I will certainly listen. For the most part I think the post in this thread have been constructive, especially in instances where the poster disagreed with my original post and pointed out their reasons for disagreement in an articulate and organized fashion...there are always one or two that make me go ...but I read their post too, take a deep breath, acknowledge to myself that they are entitled to their opinion and keep is movin'.

I mean, I think one of the greatest things about this forum is the fact that I can come out of this thread and go directly into a thread talking about moisturizers. I mean, how cool is that? Seriously, if this discussion, even at the arguably civil level that we have carried it on at, is too deep or tense for you (general you), it's cool, I would just recommend you stay out of the thread. I mean, no one is going to make you engage these types of discussions. It's up to you. But I certainly think it is a discussion worth being had, I thank those that have responded constructively, as I personally am better of having had it.

 

[jennboo]

I have noticed that threads like these are prime territory for folks to "toot" their own horn.

 

[Kurlee]

The majority of the light skinned BW I see/know/sit across from in the salon are in the 4s. I can spot naps a mile away, 3 hair hair relaxes differently, plus roots are a dead give away.
I'm in the 4s and as you can see from my siggy I'm of the diminished melanin crew.

BUT, I can agree that black women with 1-3 hair are more likely of the Halle or lighter persuasion.
Part of it also is that ppl will sooner assume a darker woman is wearing a weave and a lighter woman just has "good" hair. My hair used to be almost to the middle of my back and now it looks wiggy because it's thick and dark and yet I've never been asked if I'm wearing a weave. I marvel at all the weave accusation threads. I thoguht well dang maybe my hair isn't all that long.

Thanks for your honesty about the bolded because most lighter skinned women I have encountered are not honest about their experiences. I am "medium" complected (whatever that means) like Sanaa Lathan, Jada Pinkett, etc and when I get my hair blown out and it's hanging APL/BSLish, you better believe people are asking what brand hair I have in, where did i get my wig and trying to sneakily do weave checks. I have had my ponytail yanked to check to see if it would come off and I KNOW if I was off the beyonce, alicia keys persuasion people wouldn't make those assumptions. When I wear it curly, same assumptions. After refuting it all, then they say oh well you look kinda mixed anyway. Ummmmmm ok. Two seconds ago, I was too "black" to have this hair, now I'm "mixed". People and their nonsense amaze me. Black people need to get over this colour and hair nonsense, it so damn extra and illogical.

 

[Cherokee-n-Black]

I have a question...where is everyone seeing all these light skinned 4ab chicks and dark skinned 1a-3c chicks? Irl there aren't even enough women wearing their hair naturally for me to make that determination...but of the naturals I've seen, I haven't seen any of the aforementioned women walking around.

I see a lot of them, but I live in NYC. 8 million + people concentrated in a very small area. I've seen the full spectrum (and I'm talking light bright and darn near white to darkest of the dark) with Type 4 hair (one of my best friends could pass for white if not for her hair) and I have a hershey-kiss colored best friend who would give anyone hair envy with some gorgeous 3c hair. I've also noticed there is this "look," that I see and it's so odd, but very dark women with this shiny, jetblack hair with these big waves...I'm really fascinated by it. Often it's fairly short (neck or shoulder), but just this beautiful baby fine, shiny wavy hair, anyone know what i'm talking about? No perms, usually have curly baby hair around the edges. Anyway, it does help to be in a bigger environment. Growing up (down in NC), I knew four other black girls with long hair, one was my cousin and the other three were mixed. Oops, five--one brown-skinned girl that all the boys were after. LOL

 

[silvergirl]

ive seen "white" ppl with type 4 hair, but ive never seen a black person with type 1 hair. (i dont mean dark skinned indian ppl that looks black from far away that happen to have straight hair. i mean black ppl)

and black ppl with 3c isnt a shocker to me, because 3c hair is still an "african" texture. i dont associate other races with 3c hair.

when ppl talk about mixed hair , i think 3b, but ironically the vast majority of mixed ppl ive met either had type 2 hair or type 3c upwards to 4c. thats just my experience.

 

[hairsothick]

If I wanted to learn to play basketball and only talked to women my height and size and color, I would lose out on so much information.

You're right, but if you were a PG, you would probably talk to other PGs and not the Cs or PFs because they don't play the same position that you do.

 

[Pink Hair23]

I have a question...where is everyone seeing all these light skinned 4ab chicks and dark skinned 1a-3c chicks? Irl there aren't even enough women wearing their hair naturally for me to make that determination...but of the naturals I've seen, I haven't seen any of the aforementioned women walking around.

I live in the deep South and I have not seen this mixture either. I think part of this discussion has to do with what region you live in. In Louisiana there aren't that many natural women period for me to be able to determine their hair type. In New Orleans, generally most light skinned people come from Creole decent. That usually equals light-skin with 2a-3c hair.
Before joining this board, I never listened to my "light -skinned" counterparts in school because I thought their techniques wouldn't work. I also think that if they were dark skinned, but had that same 2a-3c hair type I still wouldn't have listened to them. I think skin color becomes an issue if it defines what you see. Don't get me wrong there were a COUPLE of dark skinned girls with 3a hair, but that was far and few in between. I think people relate to what's prevalent.

 

[ladylibra]

You're right, but if you were a PG, you would probably talk to other PGs and not the Cs or PFs because they don't play the same position that you do.

Interesting that you should point this out! Because as a PF, I took good advice from PGs and Cs.

Same with my haircare journey - I've taken good advice from people with looser textures, as well as people with tighter textures. And I believe my hair has benefitted from it.