4b Doesn't Exist!!!

[Neith]

Just to be clear, I'm not some militant, hair typing, commando freak! :gunner7:



It's a serious question I have, but I'm not trying to tell anyone what they have going on up in their head or trying to offend anyone. Just expressing a thought here.


I don't think the hair type 4b exists. I have never seen anyone who just doesn't have a curl pattern. It's described as being "crinkly" or zigzag patterned.

I have never seen anyone with crinkles instead of curls in their hair.

I think that 4b hair is just like 4a hair, just slightly tighter.

Imo, a zigzag pattern is unnatural.

Type 1 - stick straight to mostly straight with an extremely loose wave.

Type 2 - loose waves to tight waves.

Type 3 - loose curls to tight curls.

Type 4 - extremely tight curls to ZIG ZAGS?

Just doesn't seem right. Hair grows out in curvy "S" shapes. Not 90 degree angles.

Why isn't there a type 3d, looser crinkles and zigzags than type 4b? Or a type 2d, even looser zigzags (not waves, curls or coils)?

Why would black people be the only ones with weird, zigzaggy hair and not just curls, coils and waves?


Just seems funny is all...

What are your thoughts?

Also, any 4b's are welcome to post their pictures!

 

[Country gal]

My hair is mostly 4a with some 3c in the back. I haven't really seen a straight 4B before.

 

[aloof one]

There are 4bs.

I know a girl who has frizzy, zig zag shaped hair that grows straight down together. Not curly or coily by any means.

Not to mention I have a lot of kinks that don't "curl" but rather just wave back and forth on the microscopic level. But there are so many hairs clumped together that they don't curl, they just ball up together

Not to mention if hair can be straight, and hair can be curly, and hair can be coily... why can't it be zig zag? They are just a bit sharper angled than curls, not exactly 90 degree angles, but the difference is kind of obvious if you stare long enough I think. Basically it is kinky hair that doesn't curl that much, as soon as it starts to curl it goes back in the other direction again. I'll try to find pictures. Not everyone has the pattern but its there.

 

[JustKiya]

Zigzag, my hair isn't.

Crinkly, it definitely is. I don't know if 90 degree angles is what 'they' meant when they said zig zags - but, my hair does go one direction, and then make a sharp turn in the middle and go another direction. Might not be a 90 degree turn (I've never whipped out the protractor on my hair ) but it's definitely not a 'curve'

I have some curls. I definitely, however, do not have a curl pattern. I call my hair 'kinkywavy', as I think that's the best description of what it actually looks like - it's not smooth, even waves, it's wild, frizzy, unpatterned waves/bends.

Here's a couple examples.... (yeah, I was taking pictures of split ends. )

Those might not be 90 degrees, but they are pretty sharp.

A clump of hair. No curls, some 'waves' but mostly just - madness.

So, I think that 'zigzag' was simply the best way to describe it..... I can't think of a better phrase off of the top of my head.

 

[bravenewgirl87]

I've never seen zig-zags, either. Hair typing is stupid anyway, thats why Andre's hair types are not taught in beauty schools. I remember when I was transitioning and I would ask the members here how they got their 4a/b curls to hang and they said it was so easy. All your hair needs is moisture. As I kept growing, I realized the same thing too! The more moisturized my hair became the looser the texture. And since using sulfur on my head, my texture has come a long way. Thats why I don't trust the hair typing system.

ETA: I've never heard of it being taught in beauty schools. I'm not sure if is it or not. It just doesn't seem that concrete to me.

 

[senimoni]

You must not have seen my edges...imho zig zag does not = tight curl.

 

[bravenewgirl87]

You must not have seen my edges...imho zig zag does not = tight curl.

Ditto. A lot of the descriptions just doesn't make much sense to me, thats why I don't even bother with them. Whether you have 1a hair or 4cdefg, if your hair looks beautiful I'm taking your advice.

 

[Adeh]

.....

 

[aloof one]

Yea... I got me some of those too!

 

[Neith]

Zigzag, my hair isn't.

Crinkly, it definitely is. I don't know if 90 degree angles is what 'they' meant when they said zig zags - but, my hair does go one direction, and then make a sharp turn in the middle and go another direction. Might not be a 90 degree turn (I've never whipped out the protractor on my hair ) but it's definitely not a 'curve'

I have some curls. I definitely, however, do not have a curl pattern. I call my hair 'kinkywavy', as I think that's the best description of what it actually looks like - it's not smooth, even waves, it's wild, frizzy, unpatterned waves/bends.

Here's a couple examples.... (yeah, I was taking pictures of split ends. )

Those might not be 90 degrees, but they are pretty sharp.

A clump of hair. No curls, some 'waves' but mostly just - madness.

So, I think that 'zigzag' was simply the best way to describe it..... I can't think of a better phrase off of the top of my head.

Is that your hair after being detangled? How does it look when it has been conditioned and is wet/damp?

I assumed that's what happens to hair when it frizzes out of its curl pattern... like even a 3a who combs their hair after it has dried a little won't have perfect spirals.

If I combed my own hair out without it being very wet and having the right products in it, it won't clump up and curl... but would be much like that in it's natural and texturized state.

*off to stalk your site for hair pics*

 

[Bigghair]

There are true 4bs. There is a woman named Crazycoil with a beautiful head of 4b hair. Here is her link. She has locs now.
http://www.crazycoil.sili.net/twists-6june2003.html
I love her album.

 

[bravenewgirl87]

Is that your hair after being detangled? How does it look when it has been conditioned and is wet/damp?

I assumed that's what happens to hair when it frizzes out of its curl pattern... like even a 3a who combs their hair after it has dried a little won't have perfect spirals.

If I combed my own hair out without it being very wet and having the right products in it, it won't clump up and curl... but would be much like that in it's natural and texturized state.

*off to stalk your site for hair pics*

Ditto. I consider my damp or untouched hair my my true texture because once I start styling, it will look more crinkly. Thats what brushes and combs do. When damp or wet, I am about a 3c/4a texture.

 

[Neith]

There are true 4bs. There is a woman named Crazycoil with a beautiful head of 4b hair. Here is her link. She has locs now.
http://www.crazycoil.sili.net/twists-6june2003.html
I love her album.

Okay... that's one of her pics. Hopefully she doesn't mind me posting it here. There is a pattern there.

I'm not saying it has to be uniform, but there is a basic curl/wave pattern to all hair (besides type 1a)

 

[JustKiya]

Is that your hair after being detangled? How does it look when it has been conditioned and is wet/damp?

I assumed that's what happens to hair when it frizzes out of its curl pattern... like even a 3a who combs their hair after it has dried a little won't have perfect spirals.

If I combed my own hair out without it being very wet and having the right products in it, it won't clump up and curl... but would be much like that in it's natural and texturized state.

*off to stalk your site for hair pics*

Those were from last year - I'm pretty sure it was dry, then.

Conditoned and wet, it looks wavy.

Hrm, I don't know if I have any upclose of it detangled and wet without conditioner in it - lemme go see.

Okay - here's a picture, freshly washed and detangled.

I know it's hard to see clearly, but there ain't no curls. Just waves. You can kinda see it against the tile in the upper left hand corner - including a crazy bend at the end of one hair.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3258/2664578894_d0eba193e6_b.jpg is a bigger version of the same picture.

 

[LadyEuphoria007]

LOL OP your post had me cracking up. (I guess I got a case of the Sunday giggles.)

Interesting thoughts.

I saw some pics of a chick with hair that looked nothing like 4a...but it was def. a 4.

Hmm...

 

[LaPetiteCoquette]

It might not exist for anyone else, but it does for me. I am a mix of 4A and 4B and my 4B does NOT have a curl "pattern." It is not pin straight. But it kinda grows up fuzzy and straight-ish and it's very coarse, and prone to breakage. I call this my 4zzz hair. I transitioned for a year so I am very aware of my hair. It is a mass of fuzziness with no curl definition interspersed with 4A that does have some curl definition. Even now when my new growth comes in, I can clearly feel my 4A curls, vs. my 4zzzz noncurls.

 

[Neith]

Those were from last year - I'm pretty sure it was dry, then.

Conditoned and wet, it looks wavy.

Hrm, I don't know if I have any upclose of it detangled and wet without conditioner in it - lemme go see.

Okay - here's a picture, freshly washed and detangled.

I know it's hard to see clearly, but there ain't no curls. Just waves. You can kinda see it against the tile in the upper left hand corner - including a crazy bend at the end of one hair.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3258/2664578894_d0eba193e6_b.jpg is a bigger version of the same picture.

I dunno, maybe it's just me, but I see evidence of coilyness, lol

Where you pointed out in the left hand corner, I see coils and clumping. Not a perfect spring (no one has perfectly even curly hair), but it's following a round pattern.

Cute pic btw, looks very soft and healthy

 

[Nonie]

Neith, I think I see where you're coming from. Zigzag gives me the impression of corners, and while I've seen my hair looking like the first pics that Justkiya posted of her hair, it's usually after I undo a braid or after it's been styled a certain way. In other words, after I've worn my hair in a way that seemed to control how it'd behave. Now when I wash my hair, there's evidence of coils. Tighter than 4A but definitely curves not sharp corners. And yes, the coils Neith posted of the 4B pic show curves and coils tighter than 4A. An Justkiya, I will be back with a copy of your wet hair pic showing the curvy wavy coils not zigzag.

Neith I do beg to disagree on 4B not existing. It does exist. It's the zigzag definition that I usually ignore.

 

[JustKiya]

I dunno, maybe it's just me, but I see evidence of coilyness, lol

Where you pointed out in the left hand corner, I see coils and clumping. Not a perfect spring (no one has perfectly even curly hair), but it's following a round pattern.

Cute pic btw, looks very soft and healthy

Thank you!

I've give you that it's definitely following a round 'pattern' - when totally untouched, which, I guess is the best 'determination' of hair type. But it's not a regular pattern, which in my mind is the difference between a 4a and a 4b. In a 4a, there would be no question that there were consistent, tight curls. In a 4b, the curls are actually 'looser' and less consistent/not consistent at all.....

The description sucks, true. But the hair type definitely exists.

 

[Neith]

Yay! Breakthrough

4a = slightly looser, better defined coils

4b = small coils, less definition

None of that zigzag, crinkly, "z" shaped crap

Now... my interpretation of 4a is skewed. Who has type 4 hair with very defined, easy to see coils... like a type 3, but smaller scale? Never saw that either.

Dang!!

I guess 4a has more definition than 4b, but less than type 3's?

 

[Nonie]

Justkiya, I see a regular pattern. I really do. I think it's coz the coils are so small, that when we braid, unless we make really tiny plaits, we change the direction of the coils, so when we undo, they look like they have no direction. I've tried to highlight the cute regular coils in your hair. If you never braided it or if you twisted it in really tiny twists that seem to follow the size of the coils, you'd really begin to see the uniform coils throughout your hair.

The other thing I want to point out Justkiya is the ends which don't seem to be having that coil pattern have the weight of the water to bear. Also since you probably just took your hair out of braids or sth, the strands are still returning to their natural resting state. I would not believe this if I hadn't seen it with my hair.

I'll be back with pic demos of my own hair later. But here's your hair (hoping I can attach it from my PC w/o first having to upload to Fotki--never done an upload before, I don't think. So please bear with me).

ETA: I think I did succeed with adding an attachment. Go me! Oh, only I'm not sure what the rectangle on the right is doing there. I think it's supposed to be higher. Just ignore it.

 

[BrooklynSouth]

There are true 4bs. There is a woman named Crazycoil with a beautiful head of 4b hair. Here is her link. She has locs now.
http://www.crazycoil.sili.net/twists-6june2003.html
I love her album.

Thanks for the link..yes..her hair is beautifully natural whatever her type and she can work it so well.

 

[JustKiya]

I always thought the difference between the 3b/3c and the 4a was the size of the curl. A 4a would have a penspring size coil (the spring that's INSIDE a pen), while a 3c would have a fatter coil (like if you wrapped your hair around the ink pen).

I think the definition depends on how 'much' 4a hair you have - the larger the percentage of pure 4a, the more defined the curls.

I think AloofOne is 4a.

 

[JustKiya]

Justkiya, I see a regular pattern. I really do. I think it's coz the coils are so small, that when we braid, unless we make really tiny plaits, we change the direction of the coils, so when we undo, they look like they have no direction. I've tried to highlight the cute regular coils in your hair. If you never braided it or if you twisted it in really tiny twists that seem to follow the size of the coils, you'd really begin to see the uniform coils throughout your hair.

The other thing I want to point out Justkiya is the ends which don't seem to be having that coil pattern have the weight of the water to bear. Also since you probably just took your hair out of braids or sth, the strands are still returning to their natural resting state. I would not believe this if I hadn't seen it with my hair.

I'll be back with pic demos of my own hair later. But here's your hair (hoping I can attach it from my PC w/o first having to upload to Fotki--never done an upload before, I don't think. So please bear with me).

ETA: I think I did succeed with adding an attachment. Go me! Oh, only I'm not sure what the rectangle on the right is doing there. I think it's supposed to be higher. Just ignore it.

*lol* Good job!!

True, true. It's funny, I'm not honestly sure that I've SEEN my 'natural' pattern in a while, since my hair is almost always stretched somehow.

And it's HARD to get a good picture of my hair texture. I think I might need DH's help, or something.

And while the bolded sounds like it would be SOOOO cute - I'd end up cutting them out of my head, because it would take me weeks to detangle it! I don't mess with comb coils for the same reason.

See, ya'll are about to talk me into trying the 'conditioner/gel' combination to see if I can actually get my curls to 'pop'. I truly didn't think/doubt that I have curls to make 'pop' though - but I could be wrong, as I've never tried.

 

[Nonie]

Yay! Breakthrough

4a = slightly looser, better defined coils

4b = small coils, less definition

None of that zigzag, crinkly, "z" shaped crap

Now... my interpretation of 4a is skewed. Who has type 4 hair with very defined, easy to see coils... like a type 3, but smaller scale? Never saw that either.

Dang!!

I guess 4a has more definition than 4b, but less than type 3's?

Oy, I do! I don't care if none of you see them, coz I do! Like I said before, the only reason we don't see them often is because they are so tiny that the only way to keep them that way is to wash and go w/o combing, or to twist our hair in twists that do not change the direction or size of the hair's natural coil. Do this test: twist a big section of your hair and wash it and let it airdry. Then twist a really small section of your hair, wash it and let it airdry. When you undo, see which section has a uniform pattern.

ETA: And I'm not talking about the twist-out pattern. I'm talking about the strands themselves when you detangle and separate them from each other.

 

[winterinatl]

neith, I have seen this on a lady in class.

Her coils were microscopic but clearly defined.....if you've seen ladylibra's coils, well then they were about 1/2 to 2/3 the size of those. Soooo adorable with a short cut.....

I think there is truth to the 4B head.

I can't be sure what my type is but I have deep, very clearly defined WAVES that zigzag....just not on the teeny scale. When I relax of course they are softened and loosened.

Most black people I see do not have actual "coils" they have the zig zag which is just a harsher version of the wave pattern.

 

[Neith]

Oy, I do! I don't care if none of you see them, coz I do! Like I said before, the only reason we don't see them often is because they are so tiny that the only way to keep them that way is to wash and go w/o combing, or to twist our hair in twists that do not change the direction or size of the hair's natural coil. Do this test: twist a big section of your hair and wash it and let it airdry. Then twist a really small section of your hair, wash it and let it airdry. When you undo, see which section has a uniform pattern.

I always assumed that I have 4a hair.

I have washed and airdried my natural hair. Firstly it shrunk down to an inch all around

It dried into very tiny coils. Looked like I was bald, lol... but didn't resemble type 3 hair all that much either. It looked like a coily twa with larger coils sticking out here and there.

I officially don't like hair typing.

 

[Neith]

neith, I have seen this on a lady in class.

Her coils were microscopic but clearly defined.....if you've seen ladylibra's coils, well then they were about 1/2 to 2/3 the size of those. Soooo adorable with a short cut.....

I think there is truth to the 4B head.

I can't be sure what my type is but I have deep, very clearly defined WAVES that zigzag....just not on the teeny scale. When I relax of course they are softened and loosened.

Most black people I see do not have actual "coils" they have the zig zag which is just a harsher version of the wave pattern.

Oh lawd, I am thoroughly confused now. I thought she is a 4a

 

[JustKiya]

I always assumed that I have 4a hair.

I have washed and airdried my natural hair. Firstly it shrunk down to an inch all around

It dried into very tiny coils. Looked like I was bald, lol... but didn't resemble type 3 hair all that much either. It looked like a coily twa with larger coils sticking out here and there.

I officially don't like hair typing.

You and me are >>>>>here<<<<<< with that. It's so - it's so 'narrow' to try to represent something that has an almost infinite number of variations, ya know?

 

[Nonie]

neith, I have seen this on a lady in class.

Her coils were microscopic but clearly defined.....if you've seen ladylibra's coils, well then they were about 1/2 to 2/3 the size of those. Soooo adorable with a short cut.....

I think there is truth to the 4B head.

I can't be sure what my type is but I have deep, very clearly defined WAVES that zigzag....just not on the teeny scale. When I relax of course they are softened and loosened.

Most black people I see do not have actual "coils" they have the zig zag which is just a harsher version of the wave pattern.

That's because it's hard to style tiny coils in a way that keeps that shape. We manipulate them so much that they just settle in a weird shape. Imagine if you were to take pen springs and braid them together. Unless you make the braid so small that the curves follow the pattern of the springs coils, the coils will change shape. Do that often and you will probably not remember ever seeing a uniform spiral.

I remember someone asking once whether twists "train" hair. Most people agreed they do, but I think twists when so tiny just let hair do it's thing. If you leave them in long and wash/condish your hair with them in, you let your hair just be and it becomes what it is. Plaiting hair involves taking the coils the way they are shaped and then folding them over the opposite direction as you cross the hair this way and that way. Twists go in one direction and unless you twists opposite to the direction of the coils, if you're twisting them small, thus keeping the coils in their normal form, then your hair will appear to be "trained" when really, it just wasn't manipulated out of shape. JMHO.