4b Doesn't Exist!!!

[msde13]

But both my sister and I have this hair type...I have a mix of both 4b on top with 4a on the sides...when I wore my hair natural...you could tell and it looked aweful...however I was able to fix it with my stay soft fro...it help with the ends so that they were not all sticking up all funny like...or I just wore a hat...

 

[sweetgal]

Her hair is exactly like my father's
I love that hair type! But I would still say it's mini-curls, not zig-zags. At least when you look at them closely...

EXACTLY! That's what my natural hair looks like-yup-looks familar. There are some other ladies on here, like that too.

 

[sweetgal]

Nonie your hair is soo nice girl.

THe link posted is what I consider 4b hair, notice the hair is less defined as in not curly, coil, changes from day to day, and appears to be more dry than 4a.

My hair takes a lot to be moisturise, however when it is it's super soft-and fun to play with..

Now I miss my natural hair...I really wish I knew about this board when I was natural for over 5 years, struggling alone. If I knew then what I knew now, I could have taken much better care of my hair

 

[glamazon386]

Well I always took it to understand that the zig zag was not the actual curl pattern as in 4a is a spiral and 4b is a crinkle; but that it means that the hair does not have a uniform/defined pattern. When left to it's own devices it will shrink and do it's own thing.

4bs do exist but in order to see the pattern you would have to see hair naked and dry in it's natural state. Most people apply products and style their hair so you wouldn't see all of that. There was a girl in my class my last sem in school that was definitely a 4b with the zig zag hair. Her hair looked like kinky straight hair. There was no curl in sight.

 

[glamazon386]

Yay! Breakthrough

4a = slightly looser, better defined coils

4b = small coils, less definition

None of that zigzag, crinkly, "z" shaped crap

Now... my interpretation of 4a is skewed. Who has type 4 hair with very defined, easy to see coils... like a type 3, but smaller scale? Never saw that either.

Dang!!

I guess 4a has more definition than 4b, but less than type 3's?

My hair is like this. The difference between the types is not the amount of definition. There are some type 3's who don't have totally uniform definition. There's curls there but they may not all be the same or may frizz and give the appearance that there isn't curls there. That's why people use curl enhancement/definition products. It just so happens that 4b and 1a are not supposed to have a curl pattern. It's the tightness of the curl. My hair does not look like pen springs. It is spirals. There's a space in between each revolution. It's just smaller than a 3c. It also clumps in smaller sections than a 3c. I do have some 3c hair mixed in through out the 4a and you can clearly see/feel the difference if I don't add products to my hair to smooth it all out.

ETA: This is from maybe a week or two ago. Freshly washed and conditioned (I just used a rinse out con not a dc) before adding any products.

[/IMG]

 

[Kurlee]

I think you nailed. Most 4B comb it out because left to its own devices, it'd lock up and "clump" as someone said. Now about not responding to curl products, I really believe it does, but I think most people expect to see big curls like type 3 hair. But instead we get tiny curls that are so hard to see. Also rather than hang from the weight of curl product revealing shape, our hair may just curl back on itself. That's what happened when I followed wash-n-go directions that someone recommended. I was promised bouncy curls like my friend gets when she does this (I think she has 4A hair). But instead my 9-11 inch hair that year just curled back on itself and looked like what 4B hair looks: no definition (This was supposed to be a fluffy wash-n-go puff but this is what lots of products do to my hair):

Below is a pic of my hair after curl activator is applied. The curls do get defined but their size makes them so hard to see that it's easy to assume that 4B hair does not respond to curl products. BTW, for curl products to work on my hair, they have to be the only thing applied to my hair so they can reach all strands and do their thing. Layering many products just seems to make my hair dull and "shapeless" for want of a better word. Methinks that's because the other products block the curling ones from reaching strands. I probably should mention that I never knew I had uniform spirals until I stopped using products that coated my hair eg CON shampoo and started the no leave-in regimen. Not saying it will work for everyone, but just making the point that simplicity does bring out true texture.

Mwedzi, you and I need to get together coz I'ma get your hair to act like I know it should. I get shed hairs that look like that too but I can bet my bottom dollar if I were to soak them long enough, they'd coil like my hair does. You have to remember, I don't use products, so there's less chance of products blocking water from getting to the strands. And I don't think weight has anything to do with how the middle of the hair strands will look. Coz my strands have the same coily shape through their length, only they are way tinier than 4A.

Anyway, I dunno about all y'all but I have 4B hair with coils and curls that are uniform all through the length. So there!

excellent post

 

[Kurlee]

Well I always took it to understand that the zig zag was not the actual curl pattern as in 4a is a spiral and 4b is a crinkle; but that it means that the hair does not have a uniform/defined pattern. When left to it's own devices it will shrink and do it's own thing.

4bs do exist but in order to see the pattern you would have to see hair naked and dry in it's natural state. Most people apply products and style their hair so you wouldn't see all of that. There was a girl in my class my last sem in school that was definitely a 4b with the zig zag hair. Her hair looked like kinky straight hair. There was no curl in sight.

Now this hair i have seen. But then, from my experience, this hair type is VERY rare. I think i have seen it once IRL, if it was not in a pack at the BSS

 

[PuffyBrown]

lol at you!

have folks thinking that you just wet your hair....

Those were from last year - I'm pretty sure it was dry, then.

Conditoned and wet, it looks wavy.

Hrm, I don't know if I have any upclose of it detangled and wet without conditioner in it - lemme go see.

Okay - here's a picture, freshly washed and detangled.

I know it's hard to see clearly, but there ain't no curls. Just waves. You can kinda see it against the tile in the upper left hand corner - including a crazy bend at the end of one hair.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3258/2664578894_d0eba193e6_b.jpg is a bigger version of the same picture.

 

[aloof one]

Who has type 4 hair with very defined, easy to see coils... like a type 3, but smaller scale?

I do. But I'll show you my hard to see coils first. My nape is ridiculous If you look hard enough you will see the circles where the coils are. I consider it 4b however, because there is nothing I can do to make them behave the same way as my 4a hair. No curling product or gel can define them to make the coils separate or anything like that.
I think that is as small as a coil can get.

And this is the front of my hair below, which I also consider 4b, because it doesn't coil at all. It really does just kind of sit there. No amount of products or leaving it alone or brushing will define anything in it. It can be straightened or pulled to conform, but it doesn't curl. Yes I see tiny "curls" in it, but they don't "coil" up. They go in tiny, tiny "S" shapes, kind of like some of my looser texture but a lot smaller.

I think they are actually smaller versions of this. These are what I would consider my S-curl hair, which I am guessing is 4a. I am trying to find a better pic but this is all I can see on my comp right now..

ETA: The hair in my siggy is texturized, the above pics are my natural hair from when I started transitioning, but I just realized the last pic are actually my texturized hair. I cant find a better pic, but heres one (attached) from before I texturized, its just about the same as the texturized one just a little fuzzier

 

[AfroKink]

That's my hair. I consider it to be 4b. Its a wash 'n go that was washed atleast twice. No products or manipulation.
The majority of individual strands are coily, but they coil by themselves, not with other strands. I get clump families, not coil/curl families.

Lys

 

[*Muffin*]

I respect your opinion, but I'm going to have to disagree with you. The reason for it is this. I consider my hair to be mostly 4a. My hair has a definite curl pattern but it doesn't fall quite like hair in the three's fall. I used to think there wasn't really a difference between 4a and 4b hair until I had to do my little cousin's hair. His hair is very tightly coiled and he has no curl pattern. His hair is a lot like cotton candy and very dry and fragile. I tried to care for his hair the same way I care for mine, but it didn't really work well for him because our hair types are different. I think that 4b hair isn't a hair type that is seen very often and that is why most people just think for hair is all the same.

 

[cocoberry10]

I've seen quite a few 4b's in my lifetime. However, I think most women fall into the 3b-4a range!

 

[Platinum]

Zigzag, my hair isn't.

Crinkly, it definitely is. I don't know if 90 degree angles is what 'they' meant when they said zig zags - but, my hair does go one direction, and then make a sharp turn in the middle and go another direction. Might not be a 90 degree turn (I've never whipped out the protractor on my hair ) but it's definitely not a 'curve'

I have some curls. I definitely, however, do not have a curl pattern. I call my hair 'kinkywavy', as I think that's the best description of what it actually looks like - it's not smooth, even waves, it's wild, frizzy, unpatterned waves/bends.

Here's a couple examples.... (yeah, I was taking pictures of split ends. )

Those might not be 90 degrees, but they are pretty sharp.

A clump of hair. No curls, some 'waves' but mostly just - madness.

So, I think that 'zigzag' was simply the best way to describe it..... I can't think of a better phrase off of the top of my head.

I'm totally confused about hair typing now. I have a lot of this texture in addition to the tight coils.

 

[FlowerHair]

Well I always took it to understand that the zig zag was not the actual curl pattern as in 4a is a spiral and 4b is a crinkle; but that it means that the hair does not have a uniform/defined pattern. When left to it's own devices it will shrink and do it's own thing.

4bs do exist but in order to see the pattern you would have to see hair naked and dry in it's natural state. Most people apply products and style their hair so you wouldn't see all of that. There was a girl in my class my last sem in school that was definitely a 4b with the zig zag hair. Her hair looked like kinky straight hair. There was no curl in sight.

Is that really 4b though? I mean if the hair is straighter than 4a, wouldn't it be a wavy type then? :scratchch

When we see men that are natural I rarely see anyone with zig-zag hair. Most have teeny tiny coils that form small circles. A circle to me, is a curl even if it's small.

 

[FlowerHair]

I think you nailed. Most 4B comb it out because left to its own devices, it'd lock up and "clump" as someone said. Now about not responding to curl products, I really believe it does, but I think most people expect to see big curls like type 3 hair. But instead we get tiny curls that are so hard to see. Also rather than hang from the weight of curl product revealing shape, our hair may just curl back on itself. That's what happened when I followed wash-n-go directions that someone recommended. I was promised bouncy curls like my friend gets when she does this (I think she has 4A hair). But instead my 9-11 inch hair that year just curled back on itself and looked like what 4B hair looks: no definition (This was supposed to be a fluffy wash-n-go puff but this is what lots of products do to my hair):

Below is a pic of my hair after curl activator is applied. The curls do get defined but their size makes them so hard to see that it's easy to assume that 4B hair does not respond to curl products. BTW, for curl products to work on my hair, they have to be the only thing applied to my hair so they can reach all strands and do their thing. Layering many products just seems to make my hair dull and "shapeless" for want of a better word. Methinks that's because the other products block the curling ones from reaching strands. I probably should mention that I never knew I had uniform spirals until I stopped using products that coated my hair eg CON shampoo and started the no leave-in regimen. Not saying it will work for everyone, but just making the point that simplicity does bring out true texture.

Mwedzi, you and I need to get together coz I'ma get your hair to act like I know it should. I get shed hairs that look like that too but I can bet my bottom dollar if I were to soak them long enough, they'd coil like my hair does. You have to remember, I don't use products, so there's less chance of products blocking water from getting to the strands. And I don't think weight has anything to do with how the middle of the hair strands will look. Coz my strands have the same coily shape through their length, only they are way tinier than 4A.

Anyway, I dunno about all y'all but I have 4B hair with coils and curls that are uniform all through the length. So there!

Your hair is exactly what I picture 4b hair to be Mini-curls
It's so interesting that your hair is easier to handle with less product.
What is your regimen?
I really believe in the less is more-regimen...

 

[anon123]

Below is a pic of my hair after curl activator is applied. The curls do get defined but their size makes them so hard to see that it's easy to assume that 4B hair does not respond to curl products.

Mwedzi, you and I need to get together coz I'ma get your hair to act like I know it should. I get shed hairs that look like that too but I can bet my bottom dollar if I were to soak them long enough, they'd coil like my hair does. You have to remember, I don't use products, so there's less chance of products blocking water from getting to the strands. And I don't think weight has anything to do with how the middle of the hair strands will look. Coz my strands have the same coily shape through their length, only they are way tinier than 4A.

Anyway, I dunno about all y'all but I have 4B hair with coils and curls that are uniform all through the length. So there!

See, this is exactly what I mean when I say people look at the same picture and see different things. Looking at your picture, I wouldn't call your coils defined at all. By defined people generally mean multiple strands clumping together to form a curl. When I look at your picture I see a lot of separate strands next to each other, but not clumping with each other. I mean, it's hard to tell with the natural density of hair, but it's easier to see on the periphery; I can trace outlines of single strands of hair. At most 2 or 3 strands might be together and that's the max and seems too insignificant to say that the hair is really clumping. A few of the ends of the hair have more success at clumping. I also see bends in your hair that I wouldn't call uniform curls. Same picture, different viewpoints. In fact, this is how my hair looks. Your hair looks like 4b cnapp hair to me.

I want to show this picture one more time because it really illustrates the difference:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/57278355@N00/1470174126/in/set-72157601018650172/
What's the difference between the front clump of defined coils and the back clump of undefined ones? It's not coil size. Being a hair dork, I examined strands from those 2 a long time ago. The coils are the same size in both patches. Yet that front patch always clumps up like that and the one in back never does. I really think the main difference between those two patches is that for the one in front, the strands are all the same shape, regular shaped coilies. For the ones in the back, each hair is shaped differently from the one next to it and has not just circle coils, but bends.

But I do feel you on the less products thing. It's funny because with our hair type (whatever it is) people usually feel like we need the most or heaviest products. I don't layer, almost always I have at most one product in my hair. Sometimes it's just jojoba or coconut oil. Every now and then, I put nothing in. I know that the look and feel of this type of hair naked is not widely considered desirable, but I really don't mind it.

 

[Nonie]

Mwedzi, we definitely speak a different language. The coils you say are not defined in the back are the ones that IMO show definition. And the reason mine didn't clump together is because I separated them and I do so to avoid them getting all tangled up. You also see a different thing from Neith. When she saw my pics, she said that she now sees that 4B hair clumps while 4A doesn't...or sth like that. Also when you say you see bends, are you talking about the pen spring folding in the middle coz my hair isn't stiff and sticking upward? Do you also see bends in the coils in the back in your pic? Coz moi, I see nice uniform identical spirals. If you were you stretch them and wind them around something, they would interlock and clump because they are the same shape. Just because they don't do so doesn't mean they aren't the same size and shape. So if that's how you determine definition, I can prove it to you if you let me handle them a bit. LOL

Anyway, until we meet, we'll just have to agree to disagree. First it was the conditioner issue, now it's the texture of 4B hair.

BTW, Miss Alyssa, if I washed my hair and didn't detangle or comb it, it'd look like yours. You are indeed a brave soul to do that. :notworthy I couldn't even leave just the one section I unbraided alone w/o first
separating the strands and continually doing that. In other words, I took every precaution to prevent my strands from tangling.

 

[Nonie]

Your hair is exactly what I picture 4b hair to be Mini-curls
It's so interesting that your hair is easier to handle with less product.
What is your regimen?
I really believe in the less is more-regimen...

I just wash/condition then ACV rinse my hair while it's braided or twisted. That's it. I don't apply anything else afterwards or when it dries. I do this at least twice a week. I might throw in a CW. One of those washes includes a DC. That's it. Oh and I baggy every night again w/o products.

When wearing my hair out, after washing, I apply S-Curl to make combing easy. At night I put my hair into big square plaits and baggy. Makes morning combing easy as hair stays untangled.

That's it.

 

[poookie]

Well, Poookie is now officially confused about hair typing. She officially has revoked her previous 4a status, and replaced it with a hair type of "Sassy" and/or "Fantabulous", depending on how she's feeling that day.

 

[CenteredGirl]

In principal ITA. I have mostly 4B type hair, but it has NO CURL PATTERN unless it is in optimal condition. Without moisture, it's a ball of FRIZZ!!!To keep it that way I need to DC under heat for no less than 1 hour every week. Most of my hair is very porous and therefore very hard to keep soft and moisturized. But I do it, it's time consuming, but that's the price I have to pay to acheive length.

 

[PeaceFlow]

To me, 4b does not mean no curl pattern... If your hair has no curl pattern, it's type 1 - straight...

I think this the distinction between 4a and 4b...

4a is defined tightly coiled and kinky hair.... strands of hair clump together to form little springs all over...

4b is undefined tightly coiled and kinky hair... the strands do not clump together, it's just a bunch of coily "fuzz" (not sure the right word for it). The strands may form a curvy "zigzag" pattern rather than defined coils/springs.

See I dont quite agree with this. My hair used to clump into springs last year and then it stopped and started again. Currently my hair doesn't clump and I dont know what used to make it in the first place.

The first time my hair went into defined coils I was 17 but I have always had the same hair.

 

[glamazon386]

Now this hair i have seen. But then, from my experience, this hair type is VERY rare. I think i have seen it once IRL, if it was not in a pack at the BSS

She was African if that matters.

 

[glamazon386]

AloofOne - the hair in your nape is what I would consider 4b.

 

[glamazon386]

Is that really 4b though? I mean if the hair is straighter than 4a, wouldn't it be a wavy type then? :scratchch

When we see men that are natural I rarely see anyone with zig-zag hair. Most have teeny tiny coils that form small circles. A circle to me, is a curl even if it's small.

It was not wavy. Waves are like S's It was really a Z pattern.

 

[Nonie]

Y'all got me all curious to see what my hair would do if I did a wash n go w/o manipulating. I shudder at the thought! And I can tell you that after doing it, I have total respect for MissAlyssa coz I could never do this to my whole head. As I saw how my hair behaved left to its own devices, I prayed that I'd be able to untangle w/o breakage.

I CW's then applied Curls Curl Souffle (I hate creams so it didn't take long before I felt icky about that). So I washed it off. Then I tried S-Curl on wet hair (the spray), hair turned whitish. Didn't have the patience to see if that whiteness disappears with time. So back under a stream of water I put my hair. Then tried S-Curl Gel...Didn't look white but it was sticky and icky. Me-no-likey! Washed that out too. My hair was feeling a bit dry now so I did another CW and left the conditioner on for a while. Then I rinsed under running tap and just let it drip dry. I tried hard not to separate strands but just let them do their thing. Then I dunked my hair in a cup of ACV solution. And I think I think I think I just might've got me the clumps MissAlyssa gets when she does a wash-n-go without product and w/o manipulation.

Below are pics of how my hair looked from afar as well as close up.

If my coils were of a bigger diameter, then the coil definition and pattern would be more noticeable as can be seen in the bigger pics. But I most certainly will not be repeating this any time soon. I prefer my coils separated and hair easy to comb. The picture above is just a recipe for tangles and breakage and headaches galore. *shudder*

 

[anon123]

Y'all got me all curious to see what my hair would do if I did a wash n go w/o manipulating. I shudder at the thought! And I can tell you that after doing it, I have total respect for MissAlyssa coz I could never do this to my whole head. As I saw how my hair behaved left to its own devices, I prayed that I'd be able to untangle w/o breakage.

I CW's then applied Curls Curl Souffle (I hate creams so it didn't take long before I felt icky about that). So I washed it off. Then I tried S-Curl on wet hair (the spray), hair turned whitish. Didn't have the patience to see if that whiteness disappears with time. So back under a stream of water I put my hair. Then tried S-Curl Gel...Didn't look white but it was sticky and icky. Me-no-likey! Washed that out too. My hair was feeling a bit dry now so I did another CW and left the conditioner on for a while. Then I rinsed under running tap and just let it drip dry. I tried hard not to separate strands but just let them do their thing. Then I dunked my hair in a cup of ACV solution. And I think I think I think I just might've got me the clumps MissAlyssa gets when she does a wash-n-go without product and w/o manipulation.

Below are pics of how my hair looked from afar as well as close up.

If my coils were of a bigger diameter, then the coil definition and pattern would be more noticeable as can be seen in the bigger pics. But I most certainly will not be repeating this any time soon. I prefer my coils separated and hair easy to comb. The picture above is just a recipe for tangles and breakage and headaches galore. *shudder*

Wow, Nonie, that is really interesting. Thank you for updating this thread. I'm, um, tipsy right now and frankly i have no idea what i'm doing up at this time looking at pictures of people's hair, but i'll be back again tomorrow after some sleep. one question in the meantime, each time you washed out a product you didn't like, did you use shampoo? or just water? or condish? you can see in my fotki (2007) a picture of my unmanipulated wash and go. the results were quite different. i tried it for 3 days in a row. the tangles were a nightmare. but not the results you have. the very ends of my hair can do that, not the rest, even with multiple washings and letting the hair dry as it will. check it out.

 

[kblc06]

Here are some up close shots of my strands. Being a hair dork, I have looked at several of my hair strands. I know, it's creepy. Anyway, I have lots of different strands on my head. For all of these pictures, I let the hair sit in water for a little then took it out and let it fall on a flat surface and let it shrink up to dry as it will. This was the best I would do to get my curl pattern. In truth, looking at individual strands only tells you so much, because your head is not individual strands. Your head has lots of hair and they kinda hold each other up to a certain extent. So how individual strands look is not as relevant, seeing as how we aren't walking around with 3 isolated strands on our hair. The real test is how our hair behaves on our head as it is. But anyway, lets have a look:

See this hair how the ends are curly but the center looks more like it got bent? It didn't get bent, it is bent.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/57278355@N00/910150450/in/set-72157601018650172/

This is someone with a clump of hair on another forum. I'm not going to post her pics but I will just link to them:

http://hotimg16.fotki.com/p/a/70_57/103_26/july001-vi.jpg

Compare this to this clump of hair on my head of what would be a perfect 4a clump. Stretching it out will not make it look like the picture above; it will look just like this, except elongated:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/57278355@N00/1470174126/in/set-72157601018650172/

That was also a good example of clumping vs. non-clumping hair. There are tiny sections of my hair that really want to clump. I comb those sections, too, but they want to stick together. The cottony clump right behind it had not been combed any more or less than those coils.

Okay, and I'm attaching some photos of single strands for when I was trying to see whether my hair was thick or thin (comparing to half a thread of sewing thread) and what size some of my curls were (next to a pen spring). In reality I've come to realize that I have coils on my head much smaller than that penspring (they are really tiny) and thinner than those in the sewing thread photo.

In the pic you posted with the white background- I can see z type formation if you look at it sideways. I do think 4b hair exists but I also think it's quite rare

 

[Akemi]

I think that some people's hair is zig-zag-y when they comb it out. But before that it has a coil pattern. I don't think anyone's hair grows in a zig-zag pattern either.

 

[kblc06]

That's my basic understanding of it at this point.

I just wonder how many people's hair CAN clump, but doesn't. And why one would clump more than the other.

I think the definition of zigzag is being misapplied, but depends on perspective. If you look at some of people in this thread who have described their hair has 4b, and observe their strands by looking at from a flat 2D perspective, then a clear z shape emerges by looking at it from the side; the same can be applied to observing an s shape in type 3 and 4a hair. Try it. The hair strand is not actually growing in a zig zag formation, shooting out of the follicle in sharp z shapes.

 

[d-rock]

I have to agree, I look at my 4b hair and it's just extremely extremely tight coils. It's definitely got a spiral curl happening, but I've also found some 3c and 4a in my hair. I don't think, with all the ethnic mixing, that anyone is a straight 4b, either.