What Does it Mean to Die for the Kingdom of God?

[SND411]

In the Bible, we are told that we must "hate" our own life in order to become a disciple of the Most High. It also says that we are to "die" everyday as we carry our own cross. What does this mean, and how does this look like in the everyday life of a Christian?

 

[Shimmie]

Hi Afri....

When a person is dead, they are rendered unable to participate in the things of life.

When God's Word says to be 'Dead' to sin, (or to ourselves), and alive to Christ, it means for 'us' to be rendered unable to participate in sin or in the fleshly or selfish desires of our own and to be fully alive to the things of Jesus Christ.

Basicly, it means to live Holy and Blameless... on purpose. To live our lives to give God honour and not ourselves.

 

[Sharpened]

When the Apostle Paul wrote about himself, he described this very thing. It means giving up the desires of the flesh and the influence of the world in exchange for His will, as Jesus said. Our flesh is never satisfied, so it is an ongoing struggle. Ultimately, through obedience, love, and a relationship with Him, His will will become our desire.

What does it look like?

Philippians 2:3 Let nothing be done through selfish ambition or conceit, but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than himself.

It means placing God and others above yourself as you do His will. Are you able to give of yourself, to give Him the glory and expect nothing in return? Can you sacrifice everything in your life for Him? Are you willing to reject the world to the point of enduring ridicule, scorn, pain, and even death?

If you really what to know what it looks like in person, you can ask Our Father to show you.

 

[Sharpened]

Dying to Self

When you are forgotten, or neglected, or
purposely set at naught,
And you don't sting and hurt with the insult
or the oversight, but your heart is happy
being counted worthy to suffer for Christ,
THAT IS DYING TO SELF!

When your good is evil spoken of,
When your wishes are crossed, your advice
disregarded, your opinions ridiculed,
And your refuse to let anger rise in your
heart, or even defend yourself, but take
it all in patient, loving silence,
THAT IS DYING TO SELF

When you lovingly and patiently bear any
disorder, any irregularity, and impunctuality,
or any annoyance,
When you can stand face to face with waste,
folly, extravagance, spiritual insensibility,
And endure it as Jesus endured it,
THAT IS DYING TO SELF!

When you are content with any food,
any offering, any raiment, any climate,
any society, any solitude, any interruption
By the will of God,
THAT IS DYING TO SELF!

When you never care to refer to yourself in
conversation, or to record your own good
works, or itch after commendation,
When you can truly love to be unknown,
THAT IS DYING TO SELF!

When you can see your brother prosper and have
his needs met, and can honestly rejoice
with him in spirit and feel no envy nor
question God,
While your own needs are far greater and in
desperate circumstances,
THAT IS DYING TO SELF!

When you can receive correction and reproof
from one of less stature than yourself,
and can humbly submit inwardly as well
as outwardly,
Finding no rebellion or resentment rising
up within your heart,
THAT IS DYING TO SELF!

 

[Guitarhero]

To me, it means conforming to a life of goodness - good acts. It's what you do and what you do not do. In what you do, does it conform to righteousness? Are we kind to one another? Do we help the poor? Do we actually love from deep within? Our attitudes?

Great thread to revive.

 

[Sharpened]

To me, it means conforming to a life of goodness - good acts. It's what you do and what you do not do. In what you, does it conform to righteousness? Are we kind to one another? Do we help the poor? Do we actually love from deep within? Our attitudes?

Great thread to revive.

Matthew 19:17 And [Jesus] said to him, “Why call you me good? There is none good but one, that is, God: but if you will enter into life, keep the commandments.” Also see: Psalm 14:1, Romans 3:9-12

I cringe every time people apply the word good or goodness to humans. Even during my worldly days, I knew that I could not depend on anyone to be decent all of the time.

Romans 15:13-14 Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Spirit. And I myself also am persuaded of you, my brothers, that you also are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, able also to admonish one another.

What if Our Father told someone to do something you believe is not good? Is His will not above what we think or feel? Why stress out over doing well when Jesus told us to do what He said and follow His lead? As Samuel said, “To obey is better than sacrifice.” (1 Samuel 15:22)

 

[Poohbear]

Interesting thread.

This is what confuses me and it's where I see much contradiction in what PEOPLE say...

The Bible actually says what Shimmie has mentioned in her post...to live holy and blameless, die to sin, and to not be partakers of sin...

Then you have people say "goodness does not get you in the kingdom of Heaven, only salvation in God..." or "you don't have to be good" or "even the worse sinners are going to heaven all because they believe in Jesus." That can't be right.

Okay, so what is being holy and blameless? What is being obedient and dying to self? Doesn't that include being good and doing right by God?

I hate when people say you don't have to be good in order to be saved or to get to Heaven. It makes it sound like God condones sin which I know is not true. If you believe in Jesus, you should be good. You should be dead to sin and alive in Him, correct? How can people go on condoning sin and doing the same sins over and over and expect to be saved and going to Heaven?

Then they use the forgiveness principle for everything but forget about true repentance. That's what confuses me. Even in Romans it says, "Shall we sin so grace may abound? God FORBID!"

 

[Guitarhero]

I cringe every time people apply the word good or goodness to humans. Even during my worldly days, I knew that I could not depend on anyone to be decent all of the time.

What if Our Father told someone to do something you believe is not good? Is His will not above what we think or feel? Why stress out over doing well when Jesus told us to do what He said and follow His lead? As Samuel said, “To obey is better than sacrifice.” (1 Samuel 15:22)

Another indication that we're not all on the same page. We're in the book but in different chapters etc. - that all christianity is not the same. To me, goodness equates with righteousness, which is what we were taught from Moses until Jesus and beyond.

 

[Guitarhero]

I hate when people say you don't have to be good in order to be saved or to get to Heaven. It makes it sound like God condones sin which I know is not true. If you believe in Jesus, you should be good. You should be dead to sin and alive in Him, correct? How can people go on condoning sin and doing the same sins over and over and expect to be saved and going to Heaven?

Then they use the forgiveness principle for everything but forget about true repentance. That's what confuses me. Even in Romans it says, "Shall we sin so grace may abound? God FORBID!"

Why o why didn't you just say this in that other thread? I totally get you now!!!

 

[Poohbear]

Why o why didn't you just say this in that other thread? I totally get you now!!!

I thought about that other thread (wasn't it entitled "I can't imagine...") when I made a post in this thread. I know I've asked about this several times on this forum. That's one of the biggest hangups I still have about Christianity... the whole concepts of goodness, righteousness, forgiveness, repentance, and salvation.

Some Christians say you don't have to be good.

Some Christians say you do have to be good.

The Bible says be good and to live holy and blameless and not to be partakers in sin nor friends with the world, so I'll have to go with the Christians that say you have to be good.

 

[Sharpened]

I cannot call myself good because I am not perfect. Daily, I fight against flesh to do His will, but, sometimes, I slip up. I could do enough good for the eyes of man, deny everything in life, but without the Holy Spirit within, doing His thing, it is all for naught. Out of love for Him and what He has done for my family and myself do I obey, to desire more than what this world has to offer. Obedience is more than simply doing good; it is a giving of heart, mind, soul to Him to do as He pleases so He can refine us.

Doing good will not save us.
Studying the Bible will not save us.
Going to a place of worship will not save us.

Only through a connection with God through His Holy Spirit so His will becomes our own do we have any hope of salvation.

 

[Poohbear]

I cannot call myself good because I am not perfect. Daily, I fight against flesh to do His will, but, sometimes, I slip up. I could do enough good for the eyes of man, deny everything in life, but without the Holy Spirit within, doing His thing, it is all for naught. Out of love for Him and what He has done for my family and myself do I obey, to desire more than what this world has to offer. Obedience is more than simply doing good; it is a giving of heart, mind, soul to Him to do as He pleases so He can refine us.

Doing good will not save us.
Studying the Bible will not save us.
Going to a place of worship will not save us.

Only through a connection with God through His Holy Spirit so His will becomes our own do we have any hope of salvation.

I am talking about doing good by God, NOT for the eyes of man.

And I did NOT say doing good, studying the Bible, or going to church will save us.

I am saying if God gives us all these commands in the Bible and we fail to do them, isn't that not pleasing to Him? Isn't that disobedience? Isn't that sinning against Him? Are you really saved if you break His commands?

You said obedience is more than simply doing good... so explain "a giving of heart, mind, soul to Him to do as He pleases so He can refine us." What is "doing as God pleases"? How can one have a connection with God through His Holy Spirit? Is it a feeling or ultimate high that you're suppose to have everyday? Do you get it from meditating? praying? What? So we can sin all day everyday, not go to church, not read the Bible, not pray, and still go to Heaven?

 

[Guitarhero]

I cannot call myself good because I am not perfect. Daily, I fight against flesh to do His will, but, sometimes, I slip up. I could do enough good for the eyes of man, deny everything in life, but without the Holy Spirit within, doing His thing, it is all for naught. Out of love for Him and what He has done for my family and myself do I obey, to desire more than what this world has to offer. Obedience is more than simply doing good; it is a giving of heart, mind, soul to Him to do as He pleases so He can refine us.

Doing good will not save us.
Studying the Bible will not save us.
Going to a place of worship will not save us.

Only through a connection with God through His Holy Spirit so His will becomes our own do we have any hope of salvation.

This reminds me of the sinner versus saint discussion such as christians as sinners or not. I know for myself that being good is mandated and certainly attending services and receiving give life. But that's my stance founded upon the rules I have to abide by. That's why I say that this whole body is one but it's very different. I hope this thread further develops and that more chime in because it's very interesting.

 

[Sharpened]

I am talking about doing good by God, NOT for the eyes of man.

And I did NOT say doing good, studying the Bible, or going to church will save us.

Without His Spirit, we cannot hope to aspire beyond what man is capable.

I am saying if God gives us all these commands in the Bible and we fail to do them, isn't that not pleasing to Him? Isn't that disobedience? Isn't that sinning against Him? Are you really saved if you break His commands?

Jesus gave commandents to follow and we are also required to do as He did. That take time! Did I not say that without the Holy Spirit, we cannot hope to improve? No one is saved until Jesus introduces us to the Father. We have permission to point out people's behavior, but we cannot act as their Holy Spirit. Unless someone is teaching something false, I do not sweat it; I got my own family and self to deal with.

You said obedience is more than simply doing good... so explain "a giving of heart, mind, soul to Him to do as He pleases so He can refine us." What is "doing as God pleases"?

Jesus prayed, “Your will be done on earth it is in heaven.” Did Our Father not create us for His pleasure? What is the purpose for the Holy Spirit?

How can one have a connection with God through His Holy Spirit? Is it a feeling or ultimate high that you're suppose to have everyday? Do you get it from meditating? praying? What?

That answer is in the bible, but there are other ways. You already know the answer on the personal tip: prayer.

So we can sin all day everyday, not go to church, not read the Bible, not pray, and still go to Heaven?

Matthew 20:1-16 For the kingdom of heaven is like to a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire laborers into his vineyard. And when he had agreed with the laborers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard.

And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace, And said to them, "Go you also into the vineyard, and whatever is right I will give you." And they went their way.

Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise. And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and said to them, "Why stand you here all the day idle?"

They say to him, "Because no man has hired us."

He said to them, "Go you also into the vineyard; and whatever is right, that shall you receive."

So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard said to his steward, "Call the laborers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last to the first."

And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny. But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny.

And when they had received it, they murmured against the manager of the house, saying, "These last have worked but one hour, and you have made them equal to us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day."

But he answered one of them, and said, "Friend, I do you no wrong: did not you agree with me for a penny? Take that your is, and go your way: I will give to this last, even as to you. Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with my own? Is your eye evil, because I am good?"

So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

If you had knowledge of what happens during gospel missions, you would never ask that. Not everyone in the world has a Bible or goes to church, either, and yet, God is powerful enough to make a way to reach them.

This reminds me of the sinner versus saint discussion such as christians as sinners or not. I know for myself that being good is mandated and certainly attending services and receiving give life. But that's my stance founded upon the rules I have to abide by. That's why I say that this whole body is one but it's very different. I hope this thread further develops and that more chime in because it's very interesting.

The only stance for those who claim to love God is to do as Jesus did and what he taught. That is it. He taught death to self, to deny one’s self, which is what this thread is about. Doing good is not enough. Non-believers can do that.

 

[Poohbear]

Without His Spirit, we cannot hope to aspire beyond what man is capable.

How can we hope to aspire beyond what man is capable of doing with the Holy Spirit?

Jesus gave commandents to follow and we are also required to do as He did. That take time! Did I not say that without the Holy Spirit, we cannot hope to improve? No one is saved until Jesus introduces us to the Father. We have permission to point out people's behavior, but we cannot act as their Holy Spirit. Unless someone is teaching something false, I do not sweat it; I got my own family and self to deal with.

Does Jesus say that it takes time, or should it be immediate? Any verses on that?

The bolded in your above quote is what I have been starting to believe. See, I have been taught that once you accept Jesus as Lord and Savior, (confess with your mouth and believe in your heart) then you are saved. I have been taught "once saved, always saved." And there are people going around saying "I know I'm saved" and "I know I'm going to heaven." But I'm thinking "how so? Wouldn't only Jesus know if He is in fact real, all-knowing, and all-powerful?"

And I agree that we cannot act as other people's Holy Spirit. I wasn't saying that.

Jesus prayed, “Your will be done on earth it is in heaven.” Did Our Father not create us for His pleasure? What is the purpose for the Holy Spirit?

I thought He created us to give Him glory. I thought the purpose of the Holy Spirit is to keep us from yielding to sin and comfort us in our times of persecution, trouble, and suffering (not from sin, but from temptation).

That answer is in the bible, but there are other ways. You already know the answer on the personal tip: prayer.

Okay this is what I thought.

If you had knowledge of what happens during gospel missions, you would never ask that. Not everyone in the world has a Bible or goes to church, either, and yet, God is powerful enough to make a way to reach them.

Okay, so what happens during gospel missions?

I agree with you about not everyone has a Bible or goes to church and yet can experience God. The reason I asked that last particular question was not to refute you but to point out something that has been bothering me...

So many people say you should be a regular attending member of a local church. They go as far as to say you're not a true Christian if you don't go to church every Sunday and/or Wednesday night or whatever other "ministry" they have going at the church. I just don't see how that is. Are you the same person wherever you go? I know alot of people put on fronts and different personalities when at church and when outside of church, but why do people make a big deal about attending a 1-2 hour church session once a week when it doesn't save you? Same with this whole notion of tithing and listening to a preacher. That doesn't save you either nor does it make you any closer to God.

 

[Sharpened]

How can we hope to aspire beyond what man is capable of doing with the Holy Spirit?

Look at the Apostle Peter’s behavior while he was with Jesus and after the Holy Spirit entered him. Look at Paul’s conversion and ministry, and yet, he still agonized over sin. Do some research on the Christian martyrs throughout history and currently. Ask Our Father; He will show you.

Does Jesus say that it takes time, or should it be immediate? Any verses on that?

Matthew 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leads to life, and few there be that find it.

I cannot find the answer. For some, like the Apostles, it was quicker because they had a serious job to do. As long as we are alive, we have every opportunity for refinement.

The bolded in your above quote is what I have been starting to believe. See, I have been taught that once you accept Jesus as Lord and Savior, (confess with your mouth and believe in your heart) then you are saved. I have been taught "once saved, always saved." And there are people going around saying "I know I'm saved" and "I know I'm going to heaven." But I'm thinking "how so? Wouldn't only Jesus know if He is in fact real, all-knowing, and all-powerful?"

Can you see why the book of Revelation is either ignored or twisted? See chapters 2 and 3. Check out the number of times He threatened to remove a lampstand (Holy Spirit) from among a group, or punish those messing around with a false prophetess?

And I agree that we cannot act as other people's Holy Spirit. I wasn't saying that.

No, you did not, but people can take rebuking way too far and that is the way they end up acting that way. Definitely not dying to self, is it?

I thought He created us to give Him glory. I thought the purpose of the Holy Spirit is to keep us from yielding to sin and comfort us in our times of persecution, trouble, and suffering (not from sin, but from temptation).

God has emotions, just like we do. He created us after His likeness, right? Why would He want glory and for us to draw closer to Him if He did not enjoy it?

Philippians 4:13 I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.

We each have our own direction to Him due to personal experience. The Holy Spirit is our connection to the Father and His will for us, along with what you just answered. This is why prayer is so very important, so we know His will for each of us.

Okay, so what happens during gospel missions?

Research missionary testimonies here or abroad.

I agree with you about not everyone has a Bible or goes to church and yet can experience God. The reason I asked that last particular question was not to refute you but to point out something that has been bothering me...

So many people say you should be a regular attending member of a local church. They go as far as to say you're not a true Christian if you don't go to church every Sunday and/or Wednesday night or whatever other "ministry" they have going at the church. I just don't see how that is. Are you the same person wherever you go? I know a lot of people put on fronts and different personalities when at church and when outside of church, but why do people make a big deal about attending a 1-2 hour church session once a week when it doesn't save you? Same with this whole notion of tithing and listening to a preacher. That doesn't save you either nor does it make you any closer to God.

Psalm 23:1 The Lord is my Shepherd; I shall not want.

Folks in the West have had it so good for so long... Because one does not assemble as people want one to, one is in error? How do you explain someone like me, then? What is one to do when surrounded by heresy and apostasy? The only answer I get is “Oh, you are just looking for the perfect church. Just choose one that is decent.” I used to wish I could do the church thing, but Our Father showed me so much that it crushed that notion into oblivion. The problem is too much human pride and laziness to see these errors and correct them. Look at the entire world’s behavior to see the result of this.

Matthew 20:25-28 But Jesus called them to him, and said, “You know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority on them. But it shall not be so among you: but whoever will be great among you, let him be your minister (servant); And whoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant (slave): Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered (served) to, but to minister (serve), and to give his life a ransom for many.”

We each have a job to do within the body of Christ. Pastors are supposed to be guides, not any better than the rest of us. Also, my heart could not take placing myself under someone and putting my blood on his hands if he is in serious error. Do people actually take the time to see if what they are being taught is correct or may there be something missed? Can I safely say the concept of “death to self” is not being taught in most churches?

Matthew 6:1-4 Take heed that you do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise you have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.

Therefore when you do your alms, do not sound a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward. But when you do alms, let not your left hand know what your right hand does: That your alms may be in secret: and your Father which sees in secret himself shall reward you openly.

I don’t tithe; that ordinance was nailed to the cross and we don’t have the Temple anymore. Everything I have is his anyway. I simply give to people in need or groups which are not government-designated entities. I already gave Caesar his dues; what and where I give is none of his business, nor do I want to be rewarded by him for it.

 

[Guitarhero]

The only stance for those who claim to love God is to do as Jesus did and what he taught. That is it. He taught death to self, to deny one’s self, which is what this thread is about. Doing good is not enough. Non-believers can do that.

I respect your opinion. I once held it when I attended evangelical with a friend back in the day. And those were very fond memories but the majority of the teachings are rather distant for me, rather faded and replaced with another. I am of a different one now because He called me somewhere else.

So for example, He calls us to righteousness through our actions. He has not removed the 10 Commandments. I am to obey them as the basis of every day, every moment. I'm to judge myself against them for reconciling myself. That's not only a spirit within, that is an action. For us,this is what is it:

Douay-Rheims, St. James 2:21-26

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God. 24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only? 25 And in like manner also Rahab the harlot, was not she justified by works, receiving the messengers, and sending them out another way?
26 For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead.


Abraham's faith was completed only when He obeyed God to sacrifice Him. We don't know if Isaac was resuscitated divinely or if God stopped his hand from plunging into him. But we know that Abraham raised his hand in obedience. This comes directly from Judaism and is something I understand. You obey, then you gain understanding through that obedience. Striving until the last day, persevering until the end. He fell along that Via Dolorosa to the crucifixion site. That tells us this walk. We will fall, but get back up. In doing so, one exercises his faith and that faith is in Him.

Disclaimer: I'm just explaining the why's of my responses. I'm not indicating anything for anybody else. This is my comprehension for what I personally need to follow.

 

[Sharpened]

I respect your opinion. I once held it when I attended evangelical with a friend back in the day. And those were very fond memories but the majority of the teachings are rather distant for me, rather faded and replaced with another. I am of a different one now because He called me somewhere else.

So for example, He calls us to righteousness through our actions. He has not removed the 10 Commandments. I am to obey them as the basis of every day, every moment. I'm to judge myself against them for reconciling myself. That's not only a spirit within, that is an action. For us,this is what is it:

Douay-Rheims, St. James 2:21-26

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God. 24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only? 25 And in like manner also Rahab the harlot, was not she justified by works, receiving the messengers, and sending them out another way?
26 For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead.


Abraham's faith was completed only when He obeyed God to sacrifice Him. We don't know if Isaac was resuscitated divinely or if God stopped his hand from plunging into him. But we know that Abraham raised his hand in obedience. This comes directly from Judaism and is something I understand. You obey, then you gain understanding through that obedience. Striving until the last day, persevering until the end. He fell along that Via Dolorosa to the crucifixion site. That tells us this walk. We will fall, but get back up. In doing so, one exercises his faith and that faith is in Him.

Disclaimer: I'm just explaining the why's of my responses. I'm not indicating anything for anybody else. This is my comprehension for what I personally need to follow.

When Abraham offered up Issac, he was obeying Our Father's will, which had nothing to do with the commandments or the Noahide Laws (which he was still under). God stopped Abraham from killing Issac. What Abraham did is a perfect example of "dying to self."

If you are settled into what you believe, why do you keep answering me? I have research religion and I am still learning, so you have nothing new to tell me. Everything I have said can be backed up by the Bible. You debate it because you trust religion and not the Word of God in the flesh. Ask Him if what I say is truth or not.