UK Ladies: Are the Weaves really THAT bad in London?

[BlackMasterPiece]

Thanks for listing what you saw to be the causes sunrise.

This is really interesting thanks for educating me everyone! I'm loving learning about your culture!


Sent from my iPhone using LHCF

 

[afrikurl]

I stayed in London for a few months. The weaves were really bad. they were all the descitions people gave, bad, blending, different colors, unkempt but I have to say that I've seen this pheneomenon else where;in Ghana and in South Central LA. It saddens me that some people think a ratty nest looking version of someone elses hair is better than their own. I think the common connection is lack of resources and knowledge. Aparently good weave hair is like rent. I wouldnt be paying that much for someone else hair for a hair style... my guess us that women in other places aren't doing that either.

 

[otegwu]

ok... i seem to be kind of confused about something, so bare with me for a moment and see if we can wrap my brain around this


now, in the u.s. we've blamed bad hair practices on 2 main things it seems

1) generations and decades of being made to feel our hair is inferior and the need to make our hair more acceptable

2) lack of proper knowledge on OUR hair due to us being ripped from our native land and not having proper education on what our hair requires and needs

so, here's where i'm lost

i would assume (assuming probably being the reason why i am confused as you should not assume lol) that because the u.k. has so many immigrants from africa, to the point that a lot of people there are 1st born generations and what not, that there would be BETTER knowledge on how to care for our hair since we have people straight from the mother land there

i mean... is hair bad in africa too? that would be the only way i could understand this happening is if even in africa we didnt know what to do with our hair. maybe i smell a spin off coming.

i just dont understand

Te weave in Africa is bad..well from where im from... Africa is a big place lol!
Usually the old African and Jamaican ladies have the worst hair styles....and often the worst hairlines!

Ive asked my mum how they wore there hair when they were younger...and a number 1 was the main option, a girl with a low fade was still considered beautiful. same with my grandma having looked at old pictures.

I dont think slavery has anything to do with bad hair.. IMO I come from a line of free people and some of the ladies still have bad hair its got nothing to do with being ripped from 'out native land' as most of them still live there lol!

a bad weave is a bad weave

 

[jamaica68]

Most black immigrants first came to England from the Caribbean actually, and now Africans are still outnumbered 60:40, and adding mixed race too, like 75% of mixed people in Britain are mixed white and Caribbean. Most black people I meet are Jamaican and when I find an African they are usually Nigerian. Can I just say that West Africa is very influenced by French culture so a lot of women there bleach and relax. My mum is from Zaire and says it is unheard of to get a relaxer there.

True, my mom is from Barbados and she said that was the thing to do when you left home was go to England and that was over 30 years ago.

One things for sure, they're bad weaves everywhere. Hopefully with all the hair forums on the net they will learn how to take care of their hair(weave or natural).

 

[Mz.MoMo5235]

Te weave in Africa is bad..well from where im from... Africa is a big place lol!
Usually the old African and Jamaican ladies have the worst hair styles....and often the worst hairlines!

Ive asked my mum how they wore there hair when they were younger...and a number 1 was the main option, a girl with a low fade was still considered beautiful. same with my grandma having looked at old pictures.

I dont think slavery has anything to do with bad hair.. IMO I come from a line of free people and some of the ladies still have bad hair its got nothing to do with being ripped from 'out native land' as most of them still live there lol!

a bad weave is a bad weave

see, now this intrigues the hell out of me...

how did all this bad hair practice start then?!?!? if its something that is global for black women, how and when did this start. when did we forget how to do our hair?!?!?

 

[Mizz Diamonds]

I live in North West London and I see bad LF on a regular basis, I agree with those who say having natural hair here is no big deal. It is really is not.

Too echo wat Sunrise was saying about braiders and such that are from the carribeans and africa are more focused on getting money than on the hair and have no real technique. So that is why you see some women with too tight braids that destroy their hairline and you have younger girl learning how to canerow and doing it so tight.

I remeber back in HS I was doing my friend's hair and she complained I wasn't doing it tight enough. I told her if I did it as tight as she wanted she will end up with a 6head. Like one teacher in my 6th form college.

 

[chocolat79]

My brother went to London and Paris before I did and he commented on the horrible weaves and state of hair there. Then, when I went, I saw EXACTLY what he was talking about...

I see it as an opportunity though!
I'm thinking about moving to the UK this summer for my career, BUT I'm gonna be devising something for the hair scene, I think...

 

[CherryCherryBoomBoom]

I live very near London, and yeah, I've seen some bad weaves. Even Denise from Eastenders (a British soap opera) wears some bad weaves . But most women I see tend to either wear braid extensions or relaxed hair. I hardly see much natural hair about, and if I do, it's usually always in some dry puff and doesn't look well maintained

Maybe us UK LHCF ladies ought to start a healthy hair trend out here?

 

[wednesday]

see, now this intrigues the hell out of me...

how did all this bad hair practice start then?!?!? if its something that is global for black women, how and when did this start. when did we forget how to do our hair?!?!?

I love this question! this may be a controversial answer but it's just a idea. My parents are Ghanaian and i was born and raised in the UK now living in the US. When my mother was young she wore her hair very short, like Otegwu mentioned, also traditional braided styles have always been popular in 'Africa' (which is a HUGE continent so i hate to say "Africa" in a general way but anyway)
Anyway African Americans have the most visibility world wide (American movies, music and culture have permeated every corner of the world) Maybe she is wrong but my auntie thinks "Africans" have emulated what they have seen inn the mainstream, which is African American culture, straight hair/weaves etc. While i don't know if this is true i must say many of these women that are covering their beautiful hair with raggedy weave MUST have some kinda deep rooted issue with their hair. It makes no sense to me the crap some women throw on their head believing it makes them look more attractive or more presentable than their hair underneath. And believe me, i speak from experience. Growing up i had NO IDEA what to do with my hair, i grew up in a tiny town in England with no other black people literally!!! My mother kept of hair cut low when we were younger, as i got older i wanted length, i would look at American black hair magazines when i visited my aunt in the city and had no clue how i could get my hair to look like the girls in the pictures. I remember the 2 times my mother relaxed my hair as a kid (after breaking a million combs) i was in awe of the little girl on the just for me box, i couldn't believe how straight her hair was, my hair NEVER turned out that way. My mum would do a rollerset (we didn't have a hair dryer) then tell us not to get our hair wet. Also my sister and i always though Americans must have incredible water that makes their hair grow super long, not know we were looking at women with a ton of weave in their head.. So i'm saying this to say, i most definitely had issues with my hair and i'm not ashamed to admit that. But with education and self evaluation i realized i had such a skewed view of how i thought i should look. I had a friend who wore an awful awful wig constantly, one day i asked to see her hair underneath and it was severely matted. I was so sad. I tried to help her detangle but we had to cut most of it. The crazy thing was that she had this beautiful head of thick 4a hair that she was so ashamed of.
I think whenever you are a minority you are influenced by dominent culture to some extent (obviously this depends on other factors too). I truly believe black people everywhere have been impacted by slavery (bothe european and trans atlantic) in some way. Yes i am Ghanaian but my ancestors were also slaves. Many blacks in the UK have been misinformed, there has been a significant African presence in the UK for hundreds of years BEFORE slavery, but they like to tell us blacks came to the UK as slaves and in the 40s with the windrush. Anywho there is definitely a large Jamaican community in the UK (more Jamaicans/people of Jamaican descent in the UK then anywhere else in the world including Jamaica!) There are many other carribean communities and a ton of African communitys. Anyway, history lesson over....i just realized i just wrote a ton of stuff that has nothing to do with OP's post! My bad

 

[zamaih]

I love this question! this may be a controversial answer but it's just a idea. My parents are Ghanaian and i was born and raised in the UK now living in the US. When my mother was young she wore her hair very short, like Otegwu mentioned, also traditional braided styles have always been popular in 'Africa' (which is a HUGE continent so i hate to say "Africa" in a general way but anyway)
Anyway African Americans have the most visibility world wide (American movies, music and culture have permeated every corner of the world) Maybe she is wrong but my auntie thinks "Africans" have emulated what they have seen inn the mainstream, which is African American culture, straight hair/weaves etc. While i don't know if this is true i must say many of these women that are covering their beautiful hair with raggedy weave MUST have some kinda deep rooted issue with their hair. It makes no sense to me the crap some women throw on their head believing it makes them look more attractive or more presentable than their hair underneath. And believe me, i speak from experience. Growing up i had NO IDEA what to do with my hair, i grew up in a tiny town in England with no other black people literally!!! My mother kept of hair cut low when we were younger, as i got older i wanted length, i would look at American black hair magazines when i visited my aunt in the city and had no clue how i could get my hair to look like the girls in the pictures. I remember the 2 times my mother relaxed my hair as a kid (after breaking a million combs) i was in awe of the little girl on the just for me box, i couldn't believe how straight her hair was, my hair NEVER turned out that way. My mum would do a rollerset (we didn't have a hair dryer) then tell us not to get our hair wet. Also my sister and i always though Americans must have incredible water that makes their hair grow super long, not know we were looking at women with a ton of weave in their head.. So i'm saying this to say, i most definitely had issues with my hair and i'm not ashamed to admit that. But with education and self evaluation i realized i had such a skewed view of how i thought i should look. I had a friend who wore an awful awful wig constantly, one day i asked to see her hair underneath and it was severely matted. I was so sad. I tried to help her detangle but we had to cut most of it. The crazy thing was that she had this beautiful head of thick 4a hair that she was so ashamed of.
I think whenever you are a minority you are influenced by dominent culture to some extent (obviously this depends on other factors too). I truly believe black people everywhere have been impacted by slavery (bothe european and trans atlantic) in some way. Yes i am Ghanaian but my ancestors were also slaves. Many blacks in the UK have been misinformed, there has been a significant African presence in the UK for hundreds of years BEFORE slavery, but they like to tell us blacks came to the UK as slaves and in the 40s with the windrush. Anywho there is definitely a large Jamaican community in the UK (more Jamaicans/people of Jamaican descent in the UK then anywhere else in the world including Jamaica!) There are many other carribean communities and a ton of African communitys. Anyway, history lesson over....i just realized i just wrote a ton of stuff that has nothing to do with OP's post! My bad

This is such an interesting thread! Great points you made here. I was going to respond to that question and say it's probably more cultural than anything.

Straight hair/lighter skin being the standard of beauty in many cultures because of imperialism, slavery, etc. has affected everyone, not just slave descendants. So when you pair that with the lack of healthy hair care knowledge, access to products/quality stylists, the economically disadvantaged...wack hair is expected.

There are probably a multitude of things that contribute to this, but hopefully sites like lhcf will keep getting bigger and help ladies that don't know any better.

 

[yods]

see, now this intrigues the hell out of me...

how did all this bad hair practice start then?!?!? if its something that is global for black women, how and when did this start. when did we forget how to do our hair?!?!?

Africa is a really big place so it is really hard to talk about the continent as a whole but generally you need to factor in colonisation as well. Obviously the different colonisers treated the countries differently but generally the goal was to override the local traditions and hierarchies with their own. The colonisers activity (by force often) encouraged people to abandon their language, culture in order to 'civilise' as they saw it.

Below is a map of the way africa was divided by europeans as late as 1914 and remember that a lot of countries were still fighting for freedom in the 1960s whilst aparteid was still tolerated in the 1980s in South Africa. So bad practices hair wise probably are for the same basic reasons as AAs i.e. loss of culture; the discouragement of wearing your tribal clothing and hair adorations, etc. Now this is a MASSIVE over generalisation so it's not the whole truth for every country.

 

[lalla]

I don't see how French influence relates to bleaching. Men and women bleach in Zaire- former Belgian colony, as they do in Mali , Cote d'Ivoire and Senegal.

Very few people bleach in Burkina faso or in Benin or Togo although those were also French colonies.


On another note, I don't have anything against Africans, I come from Africa myself. I do notice that a lot more Africans than Blacks from Martinique, Réunion or Guadeloupe wear fake hair.

 

[lalla]

Africa is a really big place so it is really hard to talk about the continent as a whole but generally you need to factor in colonisation as well. Obviously the different colonisers treated the countries differently but generally the goal was to override the local traditions and hierarchies with their own. The colonisers activity (by force often) encouraged people to abandon their language, culture in order to 'civilise' as they saw it.

Below is a map of the way africa was divided by europeans as late as 1914 and remember that a lot of countries were still fighting for freedom in the 1960s whilst aparteid was still tolerated in the 1980s in South Africa. So bad practices hair wise probably are for the same basic reasons as AAs i.e. loss of culture; the discouragement of wearing your tribal clothing and hair adorations, etc. Now this is a MASSIVE over generalisation so it's not the whole truth for every country.

This map is wrong:
After WWI ( or II), German colonies were given to France (Togo and Cameroun) and to the UK.

As to the influence of French colonization on hair care practices I don't think the influence is as clear cut as you make it since people had beautiful -traditional-hairstyles after the 1960s.

The emphasis ( in the countries I know of) is more on style and in a lesser way on length than on health. Beautiful hair was hair that could be styled into complex braids/ twists/fishtails/ threads.
Things changed when American culture and straight haired Black people became what people aspired to. Local celebrities started the move towards relaxers and weaves and regular people followed.

 

[wednesday]

This map is wrong:
After WWI ( or II), German colonies were given to France (Togo and Cameroun) and to the UK.

As to the influence of French colonization on hair care practices I don't think the influence is as clear cut as you make it since people had beautiful -traditional-hairstyles after the 1960s.

The emphasis ( in the countries I know of) is more on style and in a lesser way on length than on health. Beautiful hair was hair that could be styled into complex braids/ twists/fishtails/ threads.
Things changed when American culture and straight haired Black people became what people aspired to. Local celebrities started the move towards relaxers and weaves and regular people followed.

yeah, i agree with that

 

[yods]

This map is wrong:
After WWI ( or II), German colonies were given to France (Togo and Cameroun) and to the UK.

As to the influence of French colonization on hair care practices I don't think the influence is as clear cut as you make it since people had beautiful -traditional-hairstyles after the 1960s.

The emphasis ( in the countries I know of) is more on style and in a lesser way on length than on health. Beautiful hair was hair that could be styled into complex braids/ twists/fishtails/ threads.
Things changed when American culture and straight haired Black people became what people aspired to. Local celebrities started the move towards relaxers and weaves and regular people followed.

The map was correct as of 1914 as I stated in my post, and yes I agree things definitely changed after the 2 world wars. I didn't say anything about the french so I am a bit confused about what you said.

I reiterate that my points were very general and whilst I get what you are saying about the infiltration of american culture etc, the changes in the societal ideals took place much earlier so I stand by what I said. There are several really good books that go into what happened on a country by country basis I need to have a dig around but can find it them if anyone is interested.

I have taken this discussion on a random tangent now though, sorry BMP

 

[Thiends]

Thanks for listing what you saw to be the causes sunrise.

This is really interesting thanks for educating me everyone! I'm loving learning about your culture!

By the part in bold, I hope you were referring to the few posts mentioning something other than bad weaves, because bad weaves are no more a part of British blacks' culture than lack of education is part of African American culture.

 

[TowsonGirl]

why do Europeans (i'm generalizing) have really bad TEETH as well?! WIth the weaves and the grills, do they not realize the way they look??

 

[bb09]

why do Europeans (i'm generalizing) have really bad TEETH as well?! WIth the weaves and the grills, do they not realize the way they look??

Are you serious? THIS is a generalisation
eta: Why do (some) Americans think this?

 

[wednesday]

Are you serious? THIS is a generalisation
eta: Why do (some) Americans think this?

From what i've seen and experienced Americans seem to be obsessed with outward appearance. Especially Hollywood. I am in the entertainment industry and it's apparent, when you consider many incredible European artists that can never be successful here because they don't have the right "look". Or consider a lot of American Artists that have had success in Europe but not in the US for the same reasons. I think Americans think Europeans have 'bad' teeth because, in the US, generally everyone on TV, in Magazines etc has a wall of straight white teeth. On British TV/media you don't see this so much. I like to compare popular tv shows or soap operas- in American shows/soaps every one looks perfect and shiny, lol in the UK actors on shows/soaps look more like regular people I really don't think there are more people in Europe with messed up teeth than there is in the US i just think you see more people with less than perfect smiles in the public eye in Europe...just an idea

 

[SheenaVee]

Also, I just remembered something, when I was in school, younger people, as in people my age, not our parents, hardly ever had weaves. Most of us in school had extension braids, natural or relaxed hair and we would gel it up and do all sorts of funky styles. In fact, we used to even take the piss out of girls with weaves. Now, my cousins and their friends who are still in school are all doing weaves. When I was their age, weaves were seen to be for 'older people'.
And because these young girls are doing weaves, they don't know how to take care of it, hence the effed up looking weaves.
(Doesn't explain the reason for the adults with the busted weave though)

 

[butterfly_wings]

The bad weaves I tend to see are on older african ladies

 

[Sunrise]

why do Europeans (i'm generalizing) have really bad TEETH as well?! WIth the weaves and the grills, do they not realize the way they look??

Lawd!

Not all Europeans have Bad teeth (rolls eyes).

The others who do can't afford Dental as the cost of living in Europe is Higher than the US. And others? They don't want to look samey with those "Hollywood" teeth and are content with being an individual. Or, Visiting the Dentist is lower down on their list of priorities.

SMDH and KMT!


Sent from my iPod touch using LHCF

 

[Gobal]

Lawd!

Not all Europeans have Bad teeth (rolls eyes).

The others who do can't afford Dental as the cost of living in Europe is Higher than the US. And others? They don't want to look samey with those "Hollywood" teeth and are content with being an individual. Or, Visiting the Dentist is lower down on their list of priorities.

SMDH and KMT!


Yup. Why are most Americans so obsessed with oral hygiene anyway? I mean, as important as it is, maybe they should be tackling obesity, seeing as its a huge problem over there.

 

[BlackMasterPiece]

Okay, let's not have this thread devolve into attacks and insults guys. Teeth are irrelevant to this topic. Thanks to everyone that helped me understand the nuances surrounding this issue. Let's get back on topic yall.

______________________


Wednesday I would agree that American's are probably more focused on outward appearance but I hope you realize that LA is an extreme case

 

[naijamerican]

This is a very interesting thread. It will be interesting to continue reading different responses from other UK-based ladies.

and erplexed that teeth got involved somehow.

 

[CoutureMe06]

My cousin is coming from London in 2 days and I am DREADING how her hair is going to look. She told me she's getting a weave. Each time I go over there, black girls hair looks HORRIBLE. It's so bad. Last time I traveled, was 3 years ago. All her friends hair is just bad. Smh.

A year ago, she was natural with this gorgeous afro so I assumed her hair would be like that. I'm excited because we will be natural gal in the city together. She had all these pics on FB. She tells me she cut her hair and wants a weave. The people I know that do good weaves are leaving NYC for holiday. Plus, she says she doesn't have much money so I told her you won't get much done. I am praying to the hair gods, seriously.

I don't want to sound shallow but each time I've seen her hair and her friends hair, it looks like f**ckery.

And she has very nice hair and is cute too! If her hair is horrid, I will cut it out and take her to my girl. She's not leaving the state for NYE. Yayyyy

Generally speaking, whenever I travel to Europe, the girls have horrible hair. If they aren't mixed where there grooming is a bit better, their hair looks bad (which is bad to say; I don't mean that in anyway but for the most part is true, at least from what I have seen and I've traveled quite a bit). It is the same in Africa. Congo, to be specific. Their hair is *shudders*, I don't want to think about it. The way they relax hair, the synthetic wigs, etcs.. I have nightmares. And this is speaking from my interactions from my family and all of their friends. It's the norm over there because they don't have enough knowledge and people to do their hair.

I really hope it changes because its such a bad reflection.

 

[fairyhairy]

To wade in on the debate - generally its about education or lack of it, whether people are willing to listen and learn.

I find many people I talk to here in the Uk reluctant to hear new ideas about hair care. I went to one salon who simply said we don't do it like that here when i asked for a saran wrap!

The availability of good products and advice is scarce if you don't look for it. Also i think people are less willing to spend the time on making themselves more presentable - when i compare my self to ladies state side I do think i could make more effort!

This isn't just an issue with black women either if you go to places like Sutton or Croydon you see some white girls with some crazy *** weaves and eye lash extensions - lol that's the one that makes me laugh the most eyelash like feathers dropping off .....Jordan wannabes

 

[wednesday]

Okay, let's not have this thread devolve into attacks and insults guys. Teeth are irrelevant to this topic. Thanks to everyone that helped me understand the nuances surrounding this issue. Let's get back on topic yall.

______________________


Wednesday I would agree that American's are probably more focused on outward appearance but I hope you realize that LA is an extreme case

Oh, most definitely!lol. I been all over the states, It's definitely most extreme in LA as you would expect. But i will say that Americans, especially African Americans, tend to try to be ON POINT at all times.loool I actually think it's a good thing, it's good to present yourself well. It's only bad when people judge others harshly based of their appearance, especially children ( i've seen so many people comment on little girls hair! i don't think kids need to look immaculate all the time. They're kids! They should be playing and getting dirty and messy!) This thread is so interesting though

 

[KeraKrazy]

I'm from south London which is probably the bad weave capital of London and I think there are many reasons that contribute to this.

Firstly Cost: Hair care and beauty in general costs an arm and a leg in London (from the products to the services) and the standards you receive if you are not paying ten fold (and sometimes even if you are) are much lower than stateside. When I go to NY I can go to the dominican salon and have my hair washed and set for $15 and my hair would look fabulous, You'd be lucky to be able to get your hair washed and styled for less than £20 anywhere in London and if you did it would likely be in the kitchen of somebody using you as their practice dummy (or in the salon of somebody using you as their practice dummy).

Secondly Quality Black hair care products and hair are not as accessible in London as they are stateside. Product choice is extremely limited if you live outside a major city, most drug stores do NOT stock black hair care products. Yes you can buy most things online but the cost of shipping and customs charges in the UK can be a huge deterrent.

Third Competition There seems to be very little middle ground in London either you pay a ton for your weave (£150+) or you get a cheap weave. Recently a ton of budget weave salons have popped up doing generic weaves for as little as £20/£25. They mostly look pretty bad but they're cheap and the lack of an alternative means this is the only option for most with little disposable income. These hair salon owners have no motivation to improve their quality because in all reality there is no competition. The other salons offering hair care at their prices or similar prices offer the same level of bad weave.

Fourthly Education This is similar to the point above, due to the lack of competition hair stylists spend little time educating themselves about new techniques etc unless they are charging top dollar. The budget salons rarely offer invisible parting and closure options. The stylists are simply trained to sow the weave in and have NO styling experience at all.

Finally priorites I dont think the british put as much stock in appearance as Americans. Its partly cultural but I think alot of this may also be influenced by the high cost of living over here.

 

[naughteegirl]

ITA with Kerakrazy...I think a lot of it comes down to people not caring as much as black women in America do esp. if you're used to seeing bad hair around and in some cases not believing that its attainable/practical to do much better.

I'd also like to add my .02 - I grew up in an African country, went to college and lived in the US for most adult life but Ive also done study abroad in the UK and worked and lived in the middle east and other African countries (other than where I grew up).. Its no slight on black women from other places cos we have other things we do well but its fair to say that of all the black women Ive encountered American women are generally a lot more knowledgeable and on POINT about their hair care than others.

I think there are also some socio economic as well as cultural factors that play a factor eg.In Kenya, Nigeria and Angola I know that its pretty affordable for most women to go to a salon every 2 weeks for a 'wash and set' and a lot of relaxed women tend to do this and not take care of their hair at home- there are other factors influencing this sometimes other than cost (hope this isnt taken out of context but you cant take things like running water and electricity for granted in some places eg. Lagos so you may prefer to just go to a salon where theyd have water supplies and a generator plus its generally more convenient esp. if you use the bucket/bath system as opposed to showers).

I think women are not taught to care for their own hair as well because it is not as high on the list of priorities and there is access to hair salons(whose quality unregulated maybe?)..eg in secondary schools its not unheard of for there to be a requirement to have hair cornrowed (no extensions) or cut in a low fade because they think its a distraction and those styles just let young girls look neat and tidy without fussing about hair styling...so from the age of about 11-16 a girls idea of hair care may be getting it washed and cornrowed every week and just brushing the sides every morning-no moisturizing and sealing...even just the fact that there are girls away from home without their moms/older sisters teaching them or helping them with hair might be a small factor (ie. in boarding schls which again are not as uncommon in Europe/Africa as in the US)

An example my current flatmate is a mixed 25 yr old (italian/kenyan) who has hair that is pretty decent in terms of length and health( BSL) but until she had to move out of Nairobi she had never done her hair herself and the first time she had to detangle it herself she ended up losing a ton of it-she knows very little about caring for her hair- not even what products the salon used back home....that was kinda surprising to me cos even though admittedly I relied a lot on salons growing up when I moved to the US I was forced to learn about my own hair care--if nothing else you see so many women with bouncy beautiful hair all the time (not just after they come from the salon) so you try to step your game up.....I keep trying to get her to moisturize and seal or even wrap her hair but as far as shes concerned I am just doing way tooo much!