tHENATuRALhAiRpRoJEcT
Well-Known Member
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To play devil's advocate on the pH-testing rage...
- Thread starter thenimblelife22
- Start date
thenimblelife22
Active Member
OP I love your post!I had wondered about this very thing. I can see using aloe juice in my mixes (in lieu of plain water or subbing for rosewater when I don't have any) but likening loads of random products to a relaxer was a bit much. I have been subbed to her for a while and I love the freshness she brings to videos.
BTW I hell hate baking soda for my hair... love it for brushing my teeth though.
Thank you! And I hope no one thinks I'm saying throw out everything she said in that video, because all in all it does challenge to think deeper about what goes into our products. I still think all her videos are fantastic, thorough, and well produced. I just took issue with specific points in the video, like any substance with a hint of alkalinity (i.e. 8) is the same as putting a relaxer on your hair.
excellent thread, OP.
i kinda wish you could make a video response to her video, as there are a bunch of ppl on youtube who could definitely use this different perspective.
Lol, that's why I posted here first! I do have a youtube channel but I think a direct response to her would lead many of her fans to crucify me! Kimmaytube has done a wonderful job helping many people get their routine together and maintain their length (I'm one of those people!). I just wonder if kimmaytube could except a video response with an open heart without going in on me in another video, like she did in the "Natural's Grow Up" video.
I was at Whole Foods today going back and forth with myself about buying either black soap or WF brand castile soap in order to make a super gentle hair cleaner, as my scalp has consistently been rejecting shampoo. I sat out on their patio with my items and ate lunch, and since i had my flip camera with me, I started to make a little video to show everyone what I bought. When I got to the castile soap, I found myself being apprehensive because I wondered if people would write to me like "Haven't you seen the pH video??? Castile soap is bad!" So, on camera I started to explain that castile soap and a relaxer are two different things and that a pH of 8 is not as disruptive to the hair as it's made out to be, and that I was considering diluted castile as a shampoo alternative because of it's chemical composition versus shampoo—no detergents and less drying on my scalp. I've used shampoos that are pH balanced but still wreck my hair with their ingredients. In fact, I've read studies elsewhere that say the "effects" of a pH balanced product wash down the drain after your done in the shower, as hair returns to it's natural pH regardless. But, I still ended up not posting the video because I know how strong this movement is. So maybe I'll hold off until this is no longer a hot topic.
I agree!!! lol, with you and the OP as well. We have to dive into the research of what we use in/on our bodies! I hope pH is just one additional component in my pursuit of maintaining healthier hair! If not, little harm in my trials. I hope no one (not really sure) is throwing out their products over ph imbalances.... but if so PLEASE SEND THEM TO ME!!! I WILL PAY SHIPPING........ .......(for real!!!).
As to kimmay, I don't know I think her now accumulation of GOOD hair care practices may have been her end all be all.... she spent over ten years natural and lots of hits and misses
I'm hoping as a NEW student of natural hair......to use everyone else's hits and misses to teach me great natural hair practices with waaaay fewer misses(i pray)
To the first bolded, this is exactly what's happening—people are throwing their products; perfectly good products that have previously done them no harm because the pH is not acidic. To the second bolded, this is what I appreciate about kimmaytube's videos, and why I felt it necessary to say something about this particular issue.
I agree that not everything that is natural is good for the hair, and I'm a person that generally prefers "natural" to artificial. Borax is natural but you should definitely not put that on your scalp! That said, just because something has been artificially produced in lab under scientific watch doesn't necessarily mean it's better than a natural solution either. A prime example of this is the food we eat—100 years ago, high fructose corn syrup, BHT, Yellow #5, nitrates and whole host of other food additives didn't even exist. Now they exist in everything and are linked to this countries increasing weight gain and health issues. When they were developed, the were modern marvels thought to take our food to the next level in both taste and preservation. Now we're slowly learning that nature had it right the first time. All I'm saying is that you can't ignore what a product is made out of because it's pH.
I agree with you OP great post!
I think that too, I'm not knocking anyone who finds it's useful in the HHJ. Some are pH-testing their way to great results, and others never gave pH a second thought and have succeeded as well.
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pjbapb
New Member
I totally mean this in the most respectful way possible...This post right here ^^^^ should be the end of discussion! LOL I love her vids especially her protective styles and when she talks about what she does that works for HER, but I would never let anyone on youtube tell me what to do with my hair! They don't even know me! LOL
spoogeywoogey
Member
OP, I couldn't agree more. I was also concerned about many people thinking that baking soda is akin to a relaxer, not taking into account the reactivity of the constituent components of the product. Sodium Bicarbonate (baking soda) is in general not as reactive as sodium hydroxide (lye). In other words, it is not strong enough to break down the sulfide bonds in the hair, a property of lye that is capitalised on in relaxers.
I will agree that the products more alkaline to hair (including water) will lift up the cuticle, but that doesn't mean that they don't have beneficial effects to the hair. It would be better to end with an acidic rinse or an acidic leave-in to help smooth the cuticles after using those products. This was always done before ( by many women) with apple cider vinegar and other citrus fruit acid rinses. These are no way as toxic as hydrochloric acid for which I've had the great pleasure of having that burn through my clothes (thanks to my lab partner). These fruit acids are no way as powerful, that's why in order to do a chemical peel they have to increase the concentration to a significant amount to get an instantaneous effect.
So my take on the matter is don't throw out things that were working for you. Concentrate more on using a pH balanced leave-in conditioner as final product or using an acidic final rinse. These will help to smooth the cuticles and keep the hair looking and feeling good.
I will agree that the products more alkaline to hair (including water) will lift up the cuticle, but that doesn't mean that they don't have beneficial effects to the hair. It would be better to end with an acidic rinse or an acidic leave-in to help smooth the cuticles after using those products. This was always done before ( by many women) with apple cider vinegar and other citrus fruit acid rinses. These are no way as toxic as hydrochloric acid for which I've had the great pleasure of having that burn through my clothes (thanks to my lab partner). These fruit acids are no way as powerful, that's why in order to do a chemical peel they have to increase the concentration to a significant amount to get an instantaneous effect.
So my take on the matter is don't throw out things that were working for you. Concentrate more on using a pH balanced leave-in conditioner as final product or using an acidic final rinse. These will help to smooth the cuticles and keep the hair looking and feeling good.
LadyPBC
Well-Known Member
I love KimmayTube videos. I recently stumbled upon them. I am natural and consider myself a newbie - chopping my relaxer April 2009. I laughed at tHeHaIRLab 1st post (with the diff bandwagons) that's how I feel because I have not settled on what works wonderfully for me. I love shea butter, it makes my hair really soft but not defined, or shiny or necessarily smooth. I love Miss Jessie's Buttercream bcuz it helps to define my twist outs, I love JBCO cuz if I add it to my ends it seals in moisture, I love Vatika Oil in my prepoos cuz it helps to melt away tangles, I love yogurt cuz it stretches my coils, I now love Eco Styler gel cuz it tames and defines my coils and I could go on. I tried Kimmay's leave in recipe (after watching her video and thinking wow about her twists - so shiny - so plump - so healthy looking) and I did notice that her leave-in made my hair feel smooth, softer, less unruly and it looked more shiny - nothing else I have ever tried did that. I did tweak it for my specific needs. I guess it is laying down my cuticles because my hair is not frizzy or poofy and it feels so moist.
I agree that the ingredients play a major part but I also believe that pH is something to be considered as well. I speak purely as a non-science major who is still trying to find her healthy hair way and had a wonderful experience with Kimmay's leave in recipe.
I have the strips and I will consider the pH balance of my products, cocktails, etc. as I perfect/improve my regimen. Not sure if I will throw out products but we do it all the time, throw away, sell, exchange products. I probably won't throw away any of the products listed above. If they don't fall in the range I would prefer I will simply add something to it like Aloe Vera juice - certainly can't hurt. Thanks!
I agree that the ingredients play a major part but I also believe that pH is something to be considered as well. I speak purely as a non-science major who is still trying to find her healthy hair way and had a wonderful experience with Kimmay's leave in recipe.
I have the strips and I will consider the pH balance of my products, cocktails, etc. as I perfect/improve my regimen. Not sure if I will throw out products but we do it all the time, throw away, sell, exchange products. I probably won't throw away any of the products listed above. If they don't fall in the range I would prefer I will simply add something to it like Aloe Vera juice - certainly can't hurt. Thanks!
thenimblelife22
Active Member
Thank you for this! This pretty much sums up what I was trying to say. Yes hair is acidic, but hair is pretty resilient when coming into contact with substances within a reasonable pH range. Clearly these "age old" products have some benefit to hair otherwise women would not have continued using them to success for literally hundreds of years. I think the fact that women knew to follow-up their hair rituals with an acidic rinse shows that even without access to the science behind hair that we have today, they still could figure out healthy practices that worked for their hair. pH testing can be useful and is a great tool to provide further insight about the nature of substances that we put on our hair, but it is not the final factor about what makes a product good or bad. I was disappointed to see so many women swearing off perfectly good products on the basis of pH alone.
I'm right there with you; pH is something to be considered. I also understand that the majority of kimmaytube's method's are popular because they work! She was the first person that influenced me to really consider protective styling—she even did an interview on my blog about it in her earlier days. Since taking protective styling seriously, my hair has grown to the longest length it's been. I also appreciate her focus on moisture and her reiteration that water is the best moisturizer for our hair. I incorporate plain water in my routine now more than ever and it's doing wonders for my dry scalp. In fact, the fact that water is the best thing for our hair yet it has a pH of 7 should point to the fact that pH is not the sole determinant of a substance's quality for hair.
For me at least, I can enjoy kimmaytube's videos and know that she's been a great help to my hair and still divorce all of that from the fact that I feel the pH series misrepresented some important information.
pringe
New Member
OMG I'm sooo glad u said this! Aphogee shampoo is Ph balanced but burns my scalp and makes my hair tangly. Can't use it!
I like ur post. You show research and information from another side and i think that is healthy. I am a subscriber to kimmaytube and she's very informative. However I don't think there is anything wrong with showing another side of the Ph debate.
I did buy strips, yes I did. The reason being is that her video got me to think about the products that I place on my head and maybe some products don't agree with me may have the same Ph balance. It made me think more about my products.
Thx for the post!!!! Good discussion. And I don't think Kimmaytube would be upset with someone who is politely stating another opinion than hers. At the end of the day, its all about hair care!
Didn't realize there was a bandwagon/rage. Guess I hang out on a different virtual street in hair world. I don't over complicate things (too busy). You know a shampoo is not the right ph for your hair because your hair will feel rough and stripped. And for what it's worth, baking soda is not a mild relaxer - if it was black people would have taken advantage of these properties long ago. I don't like it coz it makes my hair feel rough. Anyway, I hope some of the bandwaggoners move past testing other ppl's products and start making their own ph formulated products - there's still a need for those specifically formulated for afro hair.
tHENATuRALhAiRpRoJEcT
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tHENATuRALhAiRpRoJEcT
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andromeda
Well-Known Member
THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU, OP!
I find the whole kimmay/ph thing to be ironic, yet unsurprising. To quote myself in another thread:
Why praise someone for presenting a researched and edumacational approach to haircare, yet still embrace their prescriptions with the same fervor and lack of analysis that are stereotypical of bandwagon mentality?
Iirc, a commenter who claimed to be a chemist did take issue with some of kimmay's claims in the first baking soda video and kimmay was not open to her comments. I unsubscribed after that video.
I strongly encourage everyone to read naturalhaven's series on pH and related topics.
I find the whole kimmay/ph thing to be ironic, yet unsurprising. To quote myself in another thread:
Why tout research and analysis and then hold one's own conclusions above research and analysis?
Why praise someone for presenting a researched and edumacational approach to haircare, yet still embrace their prescriptions with the same fervor and lack of analysis that are stereotypical of bandwagon mentality?
Iirc, a commenter who claimed to be a chemist did take issue with some of kimmay's claims in the first baking soda video and kimmay was not open to her comments. I unsubscribed after that video.
I strongly encourage everyone to read naturalhaven's series on pH and related topics.
pjbapb
New Member
Now she's writing a book?I wonder how many people on the varying forums WILL buy kimmaytube's book (she's NOW in works of creating)..... as well as her natural hair care line??? Right now this girl has the eye of the tiger, and although she states she's not a member of any hair boards.... I'd bet a milli on that. Kimmay knows better. Silence is golden, so i'm sure she keeps her anonymity CLOSE to the vest (lol). She's smart enough to know that research is research, and you have to know your market. So what up kimmay!!! good job sis!(just kidding....kinda
)
THE ONE THING that has me most puzzled..... and most INTERESTED is kimmay is how the heck she maintains (even in camera appearance) EVENLY thickened ends as well as her full mane! She advocates less cutting/trimming, and that she will not any time soon.... and it's been what, over a year...more? her ends appear as they have no splits, definitely not thinningerplexed
tHENATuRALhAiRpRoJEcT
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Iluvsmuhgrass
Well-Known Member
Slightly OT:
Lady you said a mouthful!!! I had tried random recipes and what have you but they didn't really work for MY hair. When I started to tweak things (it's been a process of long ongoing experiments
) I finally found what works for my grass! When I used aloe vera juice instead of water/rosewater I discovered something even better! 
Not only was I excited, it caused me to completely slow my roll when it came to bandwagons. If it ain't broke....
Lady you said a mouthful!!! I had tried random recipes and what have you but they didn't really work for MY hair. When I started to tweak things (it's been a process of long ongoing experiments
) I finally found what works for my grass! When I used aloe vera juice instead of water/rosewater I discovered something even better! Not only was I excited, it caused me to completely slow my roll when it came to bandwagons. If it ain't broke....
she's mentioned much earlier that she is writing a book & working on a hair moisturizer
Pretty sure her research is a small part of what's reflected in her videos
THE COMMUNITY'S FEEDBACK is probably a LARGE part of her research, what works, what doesn't
I'm almost certain somewhere there was mention of a video series (coming) for sale as well
I have no doubt that Kimmaytube is a member of a variety of hair forums. I, too, have been doing hair research for about as long as she but I have not had any setbacks (yay me!)
. It's possible that Kimmay has a similar mindset as that of Ms. Cathy Howse, who also feels that it's her way or the highway. I applaud Kimmay for what she's done, what she's doing and where she's going, but she definitely should remain open to others who may disagree to what she's saying. She is a big advocate of Cathy Howse (as I was in the beginning of my HHJ) and she may just be following in Cathy's footsteps of "stick to YOUR guns." For those who remember Ms. Howse before she went natural and changed her routine, she was very adamant whenever someone wanted to debate the validity of whether or not trimming the ends was necessary for healthy hair, length, etc. Ol' heads, where ya'll at?In 1999-2000, when I started research on healthy hair, all there was was Cathy Howse's book, Wanakee and a small handful of other information. Until hair boards like yahoo groups BlackHairCareAndBody, came into existence, there was NOTHING. If Kimmay claims she's been researching black hair care for all of these years without being a member of any hair boards, messageboards, etc, I find it hard to understand where she has gained all this wealth of info. Just my two cents.
andromeda
Well-Known Member
I have no doubt that Kimmaytube is a member of a variety of hair forums. I, too, have been doing hair research for about as long as she but I have not had any setbacks (yay me!)
In 1999-2000, when I started research on healthy hair, all there was was Cathy Howse's book, Wanakee and a small handful of other information. Until hair boards like yahoo groups BlackHairCareAndBody, came into existence, there was NOTHING. If Kimmay claims she's been researching black hair care for all of these years without being a member of any hair boards, messageboards, etc, I find it hard to understand where she has gained all this wealth of info. Just my two cents.
Thanks for contributing your two cents! I love hearing from "old heads".
I agree with you and in the thread that I pulled my quote from, I alluded to some funny-ness that I picked up on re: kimmay's comments on hairboards.
tHENATuRALhAiRpRoJEcT
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but no, kimmay says she's only been "studying" healthy hair care for a 2-3 years now..and admits to being a former member of napturality
She just said she's no longer a member of ANY FORUMS, or social networks (including facebook) other than youtube
No, I'm not Robyn but I forgot to mention her! Yes, my Mom used Robyn's technique with fantastic success so big ups to ol' head Robyn too! Ok, I gotcha, I must have misunderstood the part where she said she has been studying for the amount of years you mentioned above. Thanks for correcting me
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tHENATuRALhAiRpRoJEcT
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i'm a stan....
LOL, nah I can't get with that phrase of "the natural hair community...". I have been out here for AWHILE and I have seen countless numbers of natural haircare companies pop up, more books published, more people doing their own research and DIY-ers, more hairboards, etc. The natural hair community has grown significantly IMO. Even in the beginning of LHCF, the convo was mainly about relaxed hair and now there is a combo of relaxed, texlaxed and natural. She must mean the natural hair community on a "global" viewpoint as in mainstream media, like television (but heck, even more models on t.v. are natural or are wearing natural hairstyles) so I don't know about her logic on that. Anywhoo, I hope she has great success in her endeavors but I hope she can be open to other ideas other than her own. After all, if she has been natural for so long and has suffered setbacks for years to where she has NOW found her way, she had to be open to different ideas to finally get to where she is with her hair, right?
LovelyNaps26
Well-Known Member
My take: i tried the leave in and my hair was soft without being greasy. i'm a student so if the thing will save me money i'm down for it.
as for the testing ph balance... yeah, so i'll have to pass on that. first of all ph balance may make the hair feel softer but based on common sense i don't think that such knowledge is necessary for length retention. do other ethnicities check the ph balance of products? moreover i don't remember my natural role models Longhairdontcare2011, sera2544, Rustic Beauty or mwedzi, etc. ever doing tests on pH balance and yet their hair is lovely and long. listen, i just want to see results. i want long, thick hair. y'all scientists can debate the "why", i just want the "oooh, how you get your hurrrr like that" comments.
as for the testing ph balance... yeah, so i'll have to pass on that. first of all ph balance may make the hair feel softer but based on common sense i don't think that such knowledge is necessary for length retention. do other ethnicities check the ph balance of products? moreover i don't remember my natural role models Longhairdontcare2011, sera2544, Rustic Beauty or mwedzi, etc. ever doing tests on pH balance and yet their hair is lovely and long. listen, i just want to see results. i want long, thick hair. y'all scientists can debate the "why", i just want the "oooh, how you get your hurrrr like that" comments.
Rei
New Member
I don't knock her hustle. Although I sort of knew that once she let her aspirations be known over youtube she would get a whole lotta backlash over it, lol. People can't just let kimmay be great
Although the ph thing i think is a good idea. i agree with the op that it may not be the be all end all, but it could also be helpful in terms of helping new ladies who may not have their regimens and leave ins down pat. For instance, I know for me, using KT in any kind of ph balanced mix probably will flop, because KT does nothing for my 4b hair. But I'd still like to know the ph of it
There are plenty of long haired ladies who didn't test any kind of ph but I'm not one of them, so Imma try everything I can until I find something steady that works.
As for testing ready made condioners (in contrast to something someone mixed up), I find that unecessary, just because it was already ph balanced in a lab! I think this advice is mostly for mixtresses
Although the ph thing i think is a good idea. i agree with the op that it may not be the be all end all, but it could also be helpful in terms of helping new ladies who may not have their regimens and leave ins down pat. For instance, I know for me, using KT in any kind of ph balanced mix probably will flop, because KT does nothing for my 4b hair. But I'd still like to know the ph of it
There are plenty of long haired ladies who didn't test any kind of ph but I'm not one of them, so Imma try everything I can until I find something steady that works.As for testing ready made condioners (in contrast to something someone mixed up), I find that unecessary, just because it was already ph balanced in a lab! I think this advice is mostly for mixtresses
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pjbapb
New Member
@boldI don't knock her hustle. Although I sort of knew that once she let her aspirations be known over youtube she would get a whole lotta backlash over it, lol. People can't just let kimmay be great
Although the ph thing i think is a good idea. i agree with the op that it may not be the be all end all, but it could also be helpful in terms of helping new ladies who may not have their regimens and leave ins down pat. For instance, I know for me, using KT in any kind of ph balanced mix probably will flop, because KT does nothing for my 4b hair. But I'd still like to know the ph of it
As for testing ready made condioners (in contrast to something someone mixed up), I find that unecessary, just because it was already ph balanced in a lab! I think this advice is mostly for mixtresses
That made me laugh because I remember thinking how ambitious she is when she said that her goal is to be the authority on YT on natural hair or something close to that statement. I say just because I may not agree with everything she says/does regarding hair, get your grind on girl! She certainly has the drive to reach her goals that's for sure!
LovelyNaps26
Well-Known Member
I don't knock her hustle. Although I sort of knew that once she let her aspirations be known over youtube she would get a whole lotta backlash over it, lol. People can't just let kimmay be great
Although the ph thing i think is a good idea. i agree with the op that it may not be the be all end all, but it could also be helpful in terms of helping new ladies who may not have their regimens and leave ins down pat. For instance, I know for me, using KT in any kind of ph balanced mix probably will flop, because KT does nothing for my 4b hair. But I'd still like to know the ph of it
As for testing ready made condioners (in contrast to something someone mixed up), I find that unecessary, just because it was already ph balanced in a lab! I think this advice is mostly for mixtresses
kimmay mentioned that aloe vera juice is the active ingredient. i'm now considering dusting off my taliah waahid's mist bodifier, which didn't really help my hair, and adding some aloe vera juice. i feel like the creamy leave in is just to give he mixture a thicker texture and the oil to give the hair shine but the "smoothness" and softness everyone raves about is largely contributed to aloe vera juice.
@ second bolded: ITA. i want the long hair and i don't think being obsessed w/ ph is necessary. like i always say technique trumps products any day. though i wouldn't use it now, i even have to admit that i used pink lotion when my hair was transitioning and my hair got so long and thick (i was protective styling even though i didn't know i was ps-ing) that if i wasn't so determined i would not have bc'd.
LaFemmeNaturelle
Well-Known Member
You ain't gotta be ashamed to admit you used pink lotion girl! hahhahaha We all did! I still don't see a prob with it lol
But I know aloe vera juice in my hair is a major FAIL! But I like to drink it!
But I know aloe vera juice in my hair is a major FAIL! But I like to drink it!
LadyRaider
Well-Known Member
I'm going to go ahead and pat myself on the back. I'm smart like the OP! I just kind of blew over that PH as unnecessary. Okay that's not AS smart as the OP. I'm smart in a less meticulous, critical thinking way! I just kinda went "meh" and the OP wrote a dang scientific treatise!
You have to treat these YouTube Gurus the way you take advice about motherhood, or dating or anything else. Take it all in, pick and choose what you think will work for you.
I don't understand why people get so worked up over something Ateyaa or Kimmay might say. For the most part they are giving out good information. I wouldn't bank on every word or every opinion, but overall they add positively to the conversation.
Now I have a question for the OP: I thought that if you rinse with luke warm or cold water, THAT closes the cuticles. Does something else really need to be done?
You have to treat these YouTube Gurus the way you take advice about motherhood, or dating or anything else. Take it all in, pick and choose what you think will work for you.
I don't understand why people get so worked up over something Ateyaa or Kimmay might say. For the most part they are giving out good information. I wouldn't bank on every word or every opinion, but overall they add positively to the conversation.
Now I have a question for the OP: I thought that if you rinse with luke warm or cold water, THAT closes the cuticles. Does something else really need to be done?
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