Self-Titled "Ministers"

[aribell]

So, lately I've been running into more and more young men in particular who "self-title" themselves, "Minister Joe" or "Bishop Bobby," "Rev.," etc. They might hold some ministry positions at church, but they aren't ordained. They don't force others to call them that, but they go by those names, or let other people call them that.

Am I being too harsh for considering this to be incredibly vain and arrogant?

It just seems that it's giving yourself some kind of spiritual authority with others without going through the proper channels. But then again, I went to a church run by a husband and wife-"pastors"-also not ordained and untrained, who basically started their own congregation. Idk, I have issues with this.

 

[Ramya]

I have issues with it too. It's out of order .

 

[plainj]

I'm not sure how I feel about this topic especially since I'm somewhat a new Christian and don't know much about what a preacher really is biblically or his biblical role, but I did find a quote that moved me when I read it:
A preacher in those days, when he felt God called him to preach, didn't hunt up a college or seminary, he hunted up a good horse, took off across the country and began crying "Behold the Lamb of God, that taketh away the sins of the world"! Today they look for the best paying job with the best retirement package.

 

[momi]

It just tickles me really. When I run into someone and they introduce themselves as "Pastor, Bishop, Apostle" so and so I am thinking "dont you have a first or last name? I really think, unless you are in a church setting that is totally unnecessary.

Due to the misconduct of various clergy as of late, I am of the mind that there should be some type of creed outlawing against self-proclamation and the office holder should have to answer to a governing body.

 

[mscocoface]

I understand your point, but from a biblical view none of the deciples where ordained, Jesus said go out and preach to the world.

I do agree with you though I have seen those with no credentials and you can tell they have the gift of ministry and I have seen those with all the papers and certifications you can get and they are as wicked as the day is long.

For me the proof is in the pudding. I am like those from Missouri, you are going to have to show me how your works play out in your ministry, your church, your people, the community. How do you act when no one is around and how do you act when you are in front of an audience.


I don't take stock too much in titles and certifications anymore. I go by their works.

 

[daydreem2876]

I can definitely see both sides of this argument but IMHO it takes some training and a certain level of experience, whether formal or informal, to be ordained as a pastor, co-pastor, bishop etc. Those titles should be earned just like one earns the title Doctor of Judge. I agree with Ramya, it is out of order... divine order.

 

[Almaz]

I have a friend whose sister now calls herself Prophetess. After many years of Sloring around but hey we can all turn over a new leaf

 

[Laela]

Hi, Nicola,

The key word is SELF.
God is a God of order...even those who are called would go through the proper channels to get ordained.

 

[SND411]

It just tickles me really. When I run into someone and they introduce themselves as "Pastor, Bishop, Apostle" so and so I am thinking "dont you have a first or last name? I really think, unless you are in a church setting that is totally unnecessary.

Due to the misconduct of various clergy as of late, I am of the mind that there should be some type of creed outlawing against self-proclamation and the office holder should have to answer to a governing body.

 

[GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I]

I understand your point, but from a biblical view none of the deciples where ordained, Jesus said go out and preach to the world.
.

They were "ordained" by Christ and we follow their apostolic tradition, not just Peter. Thomas founded a church in India, St. Mark in Egypt...Peter in Rome etc. I'm not sure just how much Torah knowledge they all had...but they learned everything from the master in the flesh. That was quite an "ordainment."

 

[trenise]

They were "ordained" by Christ and we follow their apostolic tradition, not just Peter. Thomas founded a church in India, St. Mark in Egypt...Peter in Rome etc. I'm not sure just how much Torah knowledge they all had...but they learned everything from the master in the flesh. That was quite an "ordainment."

You beat me to it. I was going to say the same thing.

 

[trenise]

Even "back in the day" when there were no seminaries for black people (or whomever) to attend, there were still people for them to give an account to. The people came together and prayed and laid on hands, and sent them out. People who went out on their own were referred to as "Jack-legged" preachers.

 

[aribell]

They were "ordained" by Christ and we follow their apostolic tradition, not just Peter. Thomas founded a church in India, St. Mark in Egypt...Peter in Rome etc. I'm not sure just how much Torah knowledge they all had...but they learned everything from the master in the flesh. That was quite an "ordainment."

Quite an "ordainment" indeed. Paul did say in Galatians that after Jesus appeared to him he did not "confer with flesh and blood" but rather went straight to Damascus to be about the work of the Lord. But Jesus Himself appeared to him! When the other apostles were replacing Judas, they all got together and prayed, fasted and cast lots to see who the Lord would have them choose. When they were selecting deacons, they got together and appointed them first. Missionaries were "sent out" by the church, etc.

I have no problem with people being about the work of the Lord, whether it's "official" or not, but what does that have to do with proclaiming oneself "Bishop" or "Prophet"? It makes me ask "What great things have you done to merit that title?"

 

[Shimmie]

Self titled is often self appointed, which is not official.

The question is: "Who do you answer to?" If they say Jesus, then it's not officially ordained. This the first clue to those who are 'self-appointed'.

Some may read this and lose a weave track, therefore,

For 'Clarity': I am well aware that we 'ALL' answer to Jesus.

In answer to this thread topic, it's the same as two unmarried people who 'call themselves' Married but haven't obtained a license and an officiate to document said Marriage.

Question: Who married you? Their answer: "God".

Ummmm, okay? So you're not really married.

However, do keep in mind that the 'True' gifts do not need a title. A gift will flow and be used of God whether a person has been officially ordained (by an office of the Ministry) or not. If you're called of God, you are indeed called of God and the title appointing is just a formality and in respect to the law. For it is against the law to take on the office of Ministry and to collect funds for such without a license.

So anyone in Ministry without a license and is collecting funds, they are in trouble, for this money has to be legally accounted for.

Bear in mind also that many have been ordained and do have a license but are still not called and neither do they have the operational gift or gifts of the Spirit appointed by God.

Meaning, that one does not necessarily have the operational gifts of the Spirit or a Spiritual Leader, just because they have been given an ordianation ceremony. Anyone can have a title and a paper document or wear a 'collar', but they have not been called to such, by God, but by man.

So! It is by their 'Fruit' that we may know them. :Rose:

 

[GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I]

I have no problem with people being about the work of the Lord, whether it's "official" or not, but what does that have to do with proclaiming oneself "Bishop" or "Prophet"? It makes me ask "What great things have you done to merit that title?"

I was responding to the part about apostles not being ordained....but they were, and directly so. Jakeleg/bootleg ministers. Well, as a catholic..........we don't have those problems.

 

[GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I]

Bear in mind also that many have been ordained and do have a license but are still not called and neither do they have the operational gift or gifts of the Spirit appointed by God.

Meaning, that one does not necessarily have the operational gifts of the Spirit or a Spiritual Leader, just because they have been given an ordianation ceremony. Anyone can have a title and a paper document or wear a 'collar', but they have not been called to such, by God, but by man.

So! It is by their 'Fruit' that we may know them. :Rose:

And if they mess up with the money, it'll be by their "fruits" that we'll throw them out.

 

[aribell]

I was responding to the part about apostles not being ordained....but they were, and directly so. Jakeleg/bootleg ministers. Well, as a catholic..........we don't have those problems.

But maybe a whole host of others! I really want to go back sometimes. I've been considering finding an Orthodox church lately. The wheels fell off the Anglican church in the USA, and well, I actually believe in apostolic succession and the sacraments and that leaves either Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox. In those traditions, you can't even think about going to seminary without the approval of the pastor, congregation, bishop, etc.

 

[momi]

Self titled is often self appointed, which is not official.

The question is: "Who do you answer to?" If they say Jesus, then it's not officially ordained. This the first clue to those who are 'self-appointed'.

Some may read this and lose a weave track, therefore,

For 'Clarity': I am well aware that we 'ALL' answer to Jesus.

In answer to this thread topic, it's the same as two unmarried people who 'call themselves' Married but haven't obtained a license and an officiate to document said Marriage.

Question: Who married you? Their answer: "God".

Ummmm, okay? So you're not really married.

However, do keep in mind that the 'True' gifts do not need a title. A gift will flow and be used of God whether a person has been officially ordained (by an office of the Ministry) or not. If you're called of God, you are indeed called of God and the title appointing is just a formality and in respect to the law. For it is against the law to take on the office of Ministry and to collect funds for such without a license.

So anyone in Ministry without a license and is collecting funds, they are in trouble, for this money has to be legally accounted for.

Bear in mind also that many have been ordained and do have a license but are still not called and neither do they have the operational gift or gifts of the Spirit appointed by God.

Meaning, that one does not necessarily have the operational gifts of the Spirit or a Spiritual Leader, just because they have been given an ordianation ceremony. Anyone can have a title and a paper document or wear a 'collar', but they have not been called to such, by God, but by man.

So! It is by their 'Fruit' that we may know them. :Rose:

I have been laughing out loud at this post. My dog is looking at me crazy.

 

[GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I]

But maybe a whole host of others! I really want to go back sometimes. I've been considering finding an Orthodox church lately. The wheels fell off the Anglican church in the USA, and well, I actually believe in apostolic succession and the sacraments and that leaves either Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox. In those traditions, you can't even think about going to seminary without the approval of the pastor, congregation, bishop, etc.

I so wanted to ask you about the Anglicans! Aren't they returning to the Catholic Church or is that just the English? This summer in Michigan, around Grand Haven, I passed by a church that said, "Anglican Catholic Church." I hadn't heard of it and I was driving too fast to turn back lol. But it got me thinking about something I heard where they were petitioning or whatever they call it to return. Lutherans, Episcopalians and Anglicans have a very similar mass to the catholics.

Well, I also have been considering the Orthodox. I absolutely LOVE the Coptics. They aren't heretical...as they don't believe in that Eutycles idea about the nature of Christ. There's this political stench surrounding them from hundreds of years back. They are kosher. But all I have to do is look to St. Maryam Church in Egypt and see that Our Lady visited there. If she can visit there, appearing to thousands, christian, muslim and anyone of any faith...I'm okay with it.

I've considered the Antiochian Church, the Syrian....we've got all that here within easy reach. The only problem....the orthodox have this Jewish thing and I'm not having it at all! They have these residual prejudices and it's holding me back. Since we still attend synagogue from time to time, I don't want that idea getting to my kids.

I know what you mean...there's so much I wish to write about it...my heart hurts so much...but I only have to look to Abba, Yeshua and Miriam and know that, the scriptures are Jewish...so are the sacraments...and that, at least, I'm home. I'm home. G-d will take care of the rest.

 

[BlackHairDiva]

So, lately I've been running into more and more young men in particular who "self-title" themselves, "Minister Joe" or "Bishop Bobby," "Rev.," etc. They might hold some ministry positions at church, but they aren't ordained. They don't force others to call them that, but they go by those names, or let other people call them that.

Am I being too harsh for considering this to be incredibly vain and arrogant?

It just seems that it's giving yourself some kind of spiritual authority with others without going through the proper channels. But then again, I went to a church run by a husband and wife-"pastors"-also not ordained and untrained, who basically started their own congregation. Idk, I have issues with this.

No I feel the same way, there are a lot of them in the african community.

 

[Shimmie]

I have been laughing out loud at this post. My dog is looking at me crazy.

You're the only one who knew I was being 'silly'...

 

[SvelteVelvet]

Serious question. Do all ministries have to keep an official booking of the money coming INTO their church? Or else they'd be in trouble with the law?

 

[GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I]

That would be state involvement right? I had heard that protestant denominations were linking up to accountability organizations within their own religious circles. I think it's a good idea. I'd like to know as well. Or maybe that senator (I forget his name) was pushing for this idea. We do have constitutional rights, tho. I'm talking about the senator who was trying to bust several mega-churches for tax evasion.

BTW, did anyone hear that B. Hinn Ministries earns him and his family over 100 million yearly? My eyeballs popped out upon hearing it!

 

[aribell]

I so wanted to ask you about the Anglicans! Aren't they returning to the Catholic Church or is that just the English? This summer in Michigan, around Grand Haven, I passed by a church that said, "Anglican Catholic Church." I hadn't heard of it and I was driving too fast to turn back lol. But it got me thinking about something I heard where they were petitioning or whatever they call it to return. Lutherans, Episcopalians and Anglicans have a very similar mass to the catholics.

Well, I also have been considering the Orthodox. I absolutely LOVE the Coptics. They aren't heretical...as they don't believe in that Eutycles idea about the nature of Christ. There's this political stench surrounding them from hundreds of years back. They are kosher. But all I have to do is look to St. Maryam Church in Egypt and see that Our Lady visited there. If she can visit there, appearing to thousands, christian, muslim and anyone of any faith...I'm okay with it.

I've considered the Antiochian Church, the Syrian....we've got all that here within easy reach. The only problem....the orthodox have this Jewish thing and I'm not having it at all! They have these residual prejudices and it's holding me back. Since we still attend synagogue from time to time, I don't want that idea getting to my kids.

I know what you mean...there's so much I wish to write about it...my heart hurts so much...but I only have to look to Abba, Yeshua and Miriam and know that, the scriptures are Jewish...so are the sacraments...and that, at least, I'm home. I'm home. G-d will take care of the rest.

Gosh, I don't really know what's going on with the Anglican Communion/Episcopal Church in the US right now. Got kind of disgusted and started tuning out. But I haven't heard much about a return to Catholicism, though I do know Episcopalians who have left the church to go Catholic instead, given the denomination's issues. I might become one of those people in a minute.

There are "Anglo-Catholic" churches and seminaries, though. They don't really have an official connection with the Roman Catholic church, but rather they are what the rest of Anglicans call "high church" Anglicans, meaning that much of their theology and worship closely mirrors that of Roman Catholicism, more so that is already found in other Anglican churches, since Anglican congregations can kind of choose just how Protestant they want to be, and they all fall somewhere along the spectrum between "Catholic" and "Protestant."

Serious question. Do all ministries have to keep an official booking of the money coming INTO their church? Or else they'd be in trouble with the law?

I think Shimmie was joking, lol.

But, say someone goes and preaches a revival at a church and takes up a "love offering." Well, technically that is income (or a "gift") that should be reported on one's taxes, but it'd also be just as easy not to report it.

Also, I used to work for the VP-Finance of a non-profit organization, and in order to maintain one's tax-exempt status, organizations generally have to keep records of all financial matters, in the event of a tax audit.

That would be state involvement right? I had heard that protestant denominations were linking up to accountability organizations within their own religious circles. I think it's a good idea. I'd like to know as well. Or maybe that senator (I forget his name) was pushing for this idea. We do have constitutional rights, tho. I'm talking about the senator who was trying to bust several mega-churches for tax evasion.

BTW, did anyone hear that B. Hinn Ministries earns him and his family over 100 million yearly? My eyeballs popped out upon hearing it!

This is interesting, because as far as I know, churches on the organizational level are completely tax-exempt. But individual ministers still have to pay taxes. I wouldn't be surprised if some people were evading taxes by making it seem like the money was going to the church when it was really a part of their salary or something like that.

I remember some people attacking churches for their political messages, saying that tax exempt organizations have to be politically neutral. I also remember some people arguing that ministries like Benny Hinn's and T.D. Jakes that go up to the millions of dollars per year shouldn't be tax exempt. But I kind of feel that that is unfair, given that there are lots of multi-million dollar non-profits, such as Planned Parenthood, the Red Cross, etc.

Not that I support all of these televangelists, but the critics are just looking for ways to attack churches.

 

[Shimmie]

Serious question. Do all ministries have to keep an official booking of the money coming INTO their church? Or else they'd be in trouble with the law?

Indeed they do; especially if it is used for 'income'. Also most Ministries are given an automatic tax exempt status where they are not taxed by the IRS or their local State. If for any reason, this is challenged by the government, they need to have a accounting of what they receive.

Giving into a Ministry is a 'tax deductible donation' and at the end of each year, any and everyone who has given so much as a 'dime' into any Ministry is entitled to have a statement of all of their giving. Even if a person keeps their own personal records (such as cancelled checks, credit card statements, etc.), they are still entitled to see what the Ministry has on record of their giving into a Ministry, in case the IRS challenges their tax statement.

It's the same as an employer giving their employees their W-2 forms to file their income taxes, those who have given donations need a documented record from the Ministry (Minstries) to prove to the IRS that their donations are legitimate. Not keeping accurate financial records also leaves a Ministry wide open for errors and financial mis-handling.

It just makes plain sense to keep a record of one's finances; a Ministry doesn't to appear too sound or responsible if they are not keeping accurate financial records. That's not flowing in God's wisdom. It's not using wisdom, period.

It can also lend itsself to a lack of Integrity.

Suppose someone gets angry with a Miinstry and wants to avenge them and they try to expose them with either a lie (or some truth), in the matter of financial integrity. The Ministry needs to have an 'account' of all donations received and those which they too have given.

 

[Prudent1]

That would be state involvement right? I had heard that protestant denominations were linking up to accountability organizations within their own religious circles. I think it's a good idea. I'd like to know as well. Or maybe that senator (I forget his name) was pushing for this idea. We do have constitutional rights, tho. I'm talking about the senator who was trying to bust several mega-churches for tax evasion.

BTW, did anyone hear that B. Hinn Ministries earns him and his family over 100 million yearly? My eyeballs popped out upon hearing it!

I didn't hear this about Benny Hinn. :scratchch But there again as long as there is nothing immoral going on It doesn't bother me for ministers to be financially well off.

Senator Charles Grassley. He accused and that made headlines. When no one was found to be doing anything unethical the 'good' senator did not even have the fortitude to appologize. So typical. He was not pushing for any ethical reasons. He was trying to find a way to collect more tax revenue. He has since made the news for some more outrageous statements such as the AIG execs should've resigned or killed themselves over the bonuses they received. I wonder how many charities the 'good' senator contributes to?

 

[Prudent1]

Indeed they do; especially if it is used for 'income'. Also most Ministries are given an automatic tax exempt status where they are not taxed by the IRS or their local State. If for any reason, this is challenged by the government, they need to have a accounting of what they receive.

Giving into a Ministry is a 'tax deductible donation' and at the end of each year, any and everyone who has given so much as a 'dime' into any Ministry is entitled to have a statement of all of their giving. Even if a person keeps their own personal records (such as cancelled checks, credit card statements, etc.), they are still entitled to see what the Ministry has on record of their giving into a Ministry, in case the IRS challenges their tax statement.

It's the same as an employer giving their employees their W-2 forms to file their income taxes, those who have given donations need a documented record from the Ministry (Minstries) to prove to the IRS that their donations are legitimate. Not keeping accurate financial records also leaves a Ministry wide open for errors and financial mis-handling.

It just makes plain sense to keep a record of one's finances; a Ministry doesn't to appear too sound or responsible if they are not keeping accurate financial records. That's not flowing in God's wisdom. It's not using wisdom, period.

It can also lend itsself to a lack of Integrity.

Suppose someone gets angry with a Miinstry and wants to avenge them and they try to expose them with either a lie (or some truth), in the matter of financial integrity. The Ministry needs to have an 'account' of all donations received and those which they too have given.

ITA- I believe God expects us to make sound choices especially w/ our finances.

 

[GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I]

I didn't hear this about Benny Hinn. :scratchch But there again as long as there is nothing immoral going on It doesn't bother me for ministers to be financially well off.

Senator Charles Grassley. He accused and that made headlines. When no one was found to be doing anything unethical the 'good' senator did not even have the fortitude to appologize. So typical. He was not pushing for any ethical reasons. He was trying to find a way to collect more tax revenue. He has since made the news for some more outrageous statements such as the AIG execs should've resigned or killed themselves over the bonuses they received. I wonder how many charities the 'good' senator contributes to?

I saw his piece on 60 Minutes a good while ago. But it does raise eyebrows when a minister is bringing in an excess of 100 million dollars yearly to his own pocket...

 

[ThickHair]

Giving into a Ministry is a 'tax deductible donation' and at the end of each year, any and everyone who has given so much as a 'dime' into any Ministry is entitled to have a statement of all of their giving. Even if a person keeps their own personal records (such as cancelled checks, credit card statements, etc.), they are still entitled to see what the Ministry has on record of their giving into a Ministry, in case the IRS challenges their tax statement.

You will be given an accounting if you are a member of the church. That is why they have numbered envelopes. If you are not a member and visit churches then you really need to be diligent with keeping cancelled checks.

Great post.

 

[aribell]

I didn't hear this about Benny Hinn. :scratchch But there again as long as there is nothing immoral going on It doesn't bother me for ministers to be financially well off.

I saw his piece on 60 Minutes a good while ago. But it does raise eyebrows when a minister is bringing in an excess of 100 million dollars yearly to his own pocket...

Sometimes I wonder about this from a witnessing perspective. It seems that once a minister reaches a certain level of wealth, the world automatically gives him (or her) the side-eye. There's definitely a difference between being financially comfortable, well-off, and plumb rich. And if that wealth is gained from individual contributions, well, that doesn't seem quite right.

But a lot of ministers also make money off of book and tape royalties and whatnot, rather than grandma's tithe.