Revelations: The Bride, The Beast & Babylon

These are dying for their holy catholic and apostolic faith:

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Our faith is real and based upon the holy word. Personal opinion is one thing...one thing other than our faith.
 
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I would not agree to that statement, the Catholic faith is based on traditions and then the scriptures, but the church is above the scriptures. As a Catholic your first allegiance is to the church not the scriptures. Your taught to see something black, cleary see it's black but if the church or rather priest say it's white then it's white.

It's taught to obey the Church rather then God the father. I raised my children in the Catholic Church, I attended Mass. I could never embrace the teachings because of numerous reasons but I could clearly see the contradictions though I didn't understand it at the time. It's not about mocking the church. It's about knowing who's side your on and understanding what that means. There's always someone who is seeking answers to some of the teachings and believe it or not they study themselves out of that faith, though there are many wonderful and loving Catholics. The Institution is the problem for it cannot change. I believe there r sincere awesome Catholics (I actually lived in a convent so yes I was so blessed)who truly love the Lord above the Church. There are some willing to die for that faith, but then you find that an just about all faiths. God is looking for the individual, who searches after the heart of God, not after the traditions of the church.
I am not attacking the Church but some of the post will be explaining revelations more cleary. But scripture explains scripture. Though you can't use this in any theologian schools. it is how we understand the words of God.
Isaiah 28:9-13King James Version (KJV)

9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.( in this text here, Milk is what you feed new Christians, They should be moving on to meat, but they rather take Breast milk, which is secondhand milk, it is knowledge that you received from someone else rather then the bible itself.)

10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: ( understanding, We know that God does not accept human sacrifice, so if you read a text that refers to that, you would know automatically that that could not be correct, there is another meaning. Because Nations were destroyed for sacrificing their children and others on the altar.) When you study you might find a contradiction. If you find a contradiction do you accept what you just read? you don't, you go and search for other text. You keep digging.

11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

13 But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
 
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Oh L-rd, well, I hope you put your "money" where your "mouth" is and actually READ the catechism as well as read catholic literature to know exactly what we are about and not go by those who hate us with an agenda. This should be a safe place for all christians, including catholics, on this board and it's not with you ranting your personal opinions, albeit, well-meaning but woefully misguided. We are NOT the beast of Revelations.

And just to clarify something, we go by the Magisterium, not the individual "priest." We are all united and this has been done through various councils which, by the way, also gave protestants their scriptures. We give thanks together, it is "Our Father," not "my Father." So, when you put down the catholic faith, you put down your very mother. Re-read church history but cease and desist with your "I know SOME catholics are good people" rhetoric. It's insulting. Stop or I'm going to report you.
 
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Should the Bible be the final authority of Christianity or the Church? Well, Christ stated that the Church, not Scripture should be the final authority: "And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the Church: but if he neglect to hear the Church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican." (Matthew 18:17 ) Christ did not state to refer to or consult Scripture for disputes and correction. He said to go to the Church as It is the final authority in Christianity. In addition, St. Paul states that the Church, not Scripture is "THE pillar and ground of the truth." (1 Timothy 3:15) Since the Church alone is mentioned as the pillar of truth, then It alone has the right to discern the truth and interpret Scripture. For if individuals could correctly interpret Scripture, then all interpretations would be exactly the same as there can only be one Spiritual Truth for the plural of the word "truth" never appears in Scripture. The Church is Christ's bride (Ephesians 5:29) and has "no spot, wrinkle or blemish" (Ephesians 5:27). Christ also stated that the gates of Hell will not prevail against His Church (Matthew 16:18) so how can the Church commit error? Individual clergy may commit sins, even popes commit sins because in the Church there are both "weeds and wheat" (Matthew 13:30).

www.catholic-defense.com secured April 5, 1999.

Clearly the text above could be argued with scripture.





 
You're being obtuse and disingenuous. You know absolutely very little about the RCC (and all who fall under the universal church) and most of that, I suspect, is regurgitated from anti-catholic apologetics. We are based upon the holy word of G-d. Sorry to disappoint you. Have you ever thought that your tirades against us and this very Church that Jesus, the Messiah, the Christ, Himself instituted upon the earth (catholic = "universal") is truly an attack against Jesus? We are mainstream, are biblical, are the basis for YOUR faith and the gates of hell will not prevail against Jesus' church. He said it Himself. Trying to take people from His Church is trying to take people away from Jesus. You're not hearing from Christ, you're influenced by something other than G-d under the guise of biblical teachings. I know it is meant to "save us." But you are in the wrong, my dear. How many times have you been asked to STOP PERSECUTING CATHOLICS HERE?

Copying and pasting from Chick tracks and not citing your source is deceiving. You do not know what you are talking about. Funny enough, our reverend is going through a similar thing with his sister. Sigh. We know who Jesus is. In that convent, did you ever think that tey might have something you don't have? But to pity them and look down on them thinking you are higher is disgusting, esp. when they were giving you a leg up. Stop it. Get your gear off "catholics are the beast and headed for hell" pseudo and false apologetics. It's sheer nonsense. The fact that you have to copy and paste and NEVER have given a catholic source to examine is very telling. @blazingthru you are not correct in this.

In fact, why not examine the liturgy yourself? If you're going to continue to condemn us right here in the CF, why not use our very sources? But examine them first then stake your claim based upon evidence:

The Catechism of the Catholic Church
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM

The Readings of the Liturgy
http://www.usccb.org/bible/readings/083115.cfm

And then make sure to personally read all the Doctors of the Church and all the Councils.
 
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That is not what I am doing at all. I posted from your own website. You want to get the post lock, that was your intentions from the very beginning.
 
blazingthru said:
That is not what I am doing at all. I posted from your own website. You want to get the post lock, that was your intentions from the very beginning.
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Correction: You posted from ONE website that is NOT the official website of the RCC. There's a difference. And nobody is trying to get you locked, I am trying to get you to stop persecuting us. Don't come in here with this attitude of "sly devil." If anything, look in the mirror. YOU are the very "negative christian" you are complaining about. This is wrong, wrong, WRONG.
 
And what was YOUR intention from the very beginning? Be honest? You have an agenda here. It's insulting, demeaning, erroneous and disingenuous. But this is the last of my comments. I'm just going to report you from now on. You've been warned in the past about this behavior from the mods. Wake up!
 
I read the post, hon and it was a mild rebuke to stop this behavior. It was months ago. Just stop. There are NO intentions, no subterfuge, no devlish anything, no anti-Christ, no Babylon....cease and desist from your assault on faithful catholic participants in the Christian Forum. If you don't like our Church, turn your eyes and close your e-lips in public. Take it elsewhere. All these videos and articles are nothing but the same drivel. I will not put up with this disgusting behavior. It is an assault and affront to the kind ladies of the CF, some of whom, including myself, are catholic. G-d never told you to try and get us out. You have been deceived.


We are not all cut from the same pattern but we are all cut from the same CLOTH. That cloth is Jesus. Stop attacking us. It is YOU and not me.

Mt 10:33

But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.
 
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@kanozas I'm SDA and I lurk. If you would like to have a discussion with a less traditional SDA let me know. I believe we can all learn from each other.
 
@sweetvi

It can never go well when it's predicated upon "catholics are evil" kinda rhetoric and false apologetics. Not my fault. We should be very careful about what we espouse.

dicapr said:
How we live and treat one another is one of the most important facets of Christianity. We don't have to agree on dogma in order to encourage each other to let our lights shine.
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Sometimes, standing up for Christ means just that - standing up. However, when it involves something like this thread's OP, it should be off-limits in the CF. We catholics have safe passage here. The attacks need to stop and this is not the first time it was kindly asked. And I just hate that we have to be bombarded with this each and every so often here. If only people could comprehend from our point of view...smh.
 
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This is not the first time OP has spouted anti-Catholic rhetoric and made attacks. If she wants to be ignorant and foolish, then let her be. For those who know better, or at least not hostile, we've got great threads here in CF where we can discuss.
 
All that stuff is just Ellen G. White heresies. I earnestly hope OP can see how destructive and disrespectful spreading that kind of teaching is. To be fair to her, I'm sure it feels like it's esoteric knowledge and spreading "truth".
 
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dicapr said:
@Kurlee you are correct in that this forum should be a safe haven for Christians period-no matter what the demonination. I am sorry that your belief system has been disrespected. Even though I do not share the OP's sentiments I do feel the need to apologize to anyone who was hurt and offended. God bless.
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Thank you for your kind words! :kiss:
I firmly believe that every Christian denomination has something about it that is more traditional than scriptural, but I think that if we are seeking truth, we should be able to discuss and debate openly. Regardless of denomination, as Christians, because we are seeking the kingdom and a genuine relationship with God, we should be able to unite around those basic shared interests.

I do not sense that OP is being malicious. However, I am aware that there are some problematic teachings in her denomination that can incite even those with best of intentions, to say/do things that may offend others. I think this space is a good place to talk about these things, as long as we try to do it in love.
 
^^Comparing us to Satan and the Beast of End Times and the Whore of Babylon is BEYOND insult and maliciousness. She's has been asked various time to stop this. @Shimmie am I mistaken by that? I distinctly remember other threads in which she was given mild rebuke.

Theology and beliefs are one thing. This goes beyond. How do you stand to someone's face and say they are Whores, Evil and Satanic when they are a christian mainstream denomination? Mistaken apologetics is not this, not at all. And to say that G-d is telling her to tell us this is ridiculous.

Key word *mainstream* denomination, although, we are the universal church and are the mother of you all. That's not braggadoccia, that's fact. But how would you feel is someone said that Mary was no Virgin and that Jesus was some random guy's bastard kid? That He was not the Christ? That His teachings are garbage? How would you respond in a forum where mainstream christianity were discussed? Effectively, OP is turning her nose up at Jesus albeit inadvertently. Tis better to look away and discuss your objections in private than to all-out insult someone to their face and in public, esp. when it's JESUS.

churchlady.jpg
 
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@kanozas

I hear you and understand all that you're saying. It is offensive. There's no denying that. One of the problems that I have found with SDAs and groups in a similar vein (Mormon, JW) is that they are very exclusive and insular. It's very us vs. them, very bound to Mosaic Law (and its own traditions)and heavily influenced by false prophets of the past two centuries (Ellen G. White, Joseph Smith, Watchtower). They will NOT admit that or may not even recognize it, but it's kind of obvious. These systems of belief are also very institutionalized and in some ways deny the grace and teachings of Jesus Christ and the early church, IMO.

For these reasons, many (not all) in these groups tend to feel that their denomination has the "truth" or esoteric knowledge that everyone is missing or that they are the "remnant" church and therefore, they truly believe that they are genuinely witnessing to you and helping to bring you to Christ.

I know it may sound strange, but I genuinely think that THEY think they are witnessing to you. I find it off-putting, but I try to at least understand why and where people are coming from when they do things so that I don't just get pissed off.

I also think if we are open, we can learn from sharing information on here, because it's not necessarily about denominational allegiance, but what the word of God says, and that may overlap into many of the artificial divisions and denominations that we've created.

kanozas said:
^^Comparing us to Satan and the Beast of End Times and the Whore of Babylon is BEYOND insult and maliciousness. She's has been asked various time to stop this. @Shimmie am I mistaken by that? I distinctly remember other threads in which she was given mild rebuke.

Theology and beliefs are one thing. This goes beyond. How do you stand to someone's face and say they are Whores, Evil and Satanic when they are a christian mainstream denomination? Mistaken apologetics is not this, not at all. And to say that G-d is telling her to tell us this is ridiculous.

Key word *mainstream* denomination, although, we are the universal church and are the mother of you all. That's not braggadoccia, that's fact. But how would you feel is someone said that Mary was no Virgin and that Jesus was some random guy's bastard kid? That He was not the Christ? That His teachings are garbage? How would you respond in a forum where mainstream christianity were discussed? Effectively, OP is turning her nose up at Jesus albeit inadvertently. Tis better to look away and discuss your objections in private than to all-out insult someone to their face and in public, esp. when it's JESUS.

churchlady.jpg
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@Kurlee as a SDA I will say you hit the nail on the head. Those who still hold to that hardline point of view Do believe they are sharing the truth of God and tend to overlook that they can come across offensive and alienate the very people they are witnessing to. However, I would like to say that most SDA and our pastors are a lot more moderate than the views presented in this thread. Our denomination is at a crossroads as many view points are evolving and it seems that the more traditional of SDA are becoming louder and more outspoken in response to the changing opinions of SDA membership. They believe they are rejecting the compromising of our faith while others of us believe that our understanding is greater and we should reject some of our dogma that was in error.
 
dicapr said:
@Kurlee as a SDA I will say you hit the nail on the head. Those who still hold to that hardline point of view Do believe they are sharing the truth of God and tend to overlook that they can come across offensive and alienate the very people they are witnessing to. However, I would like to say that most SDA and our pastors are a lot more moderate than the views presented in this thread. Our denomination is at a crossroads as many view points are evolving and it seems that the more traditional of SDA are becoming louder and more outspoken in response to the changing opinions of SDA membership. They believe they are rejecting the compromising of our faith while others of us believe that our understanding is greater and we should reject some of our dogma that was in error.
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I agree with the bolded. All that I would add is that the doctrine is so wrapped up in confusion that many genuine people will get lost in the process of "change" and it's quite sad. Because SDA is institutionalized, the Conference has too much to lose by admitting its faults and once you remove the roots of the group (EGW, remnant, eschatology, Sunday law, etc.), there'd be almost nothing left that distinguishes it from mainstream Christianity.

I think it will be quite difficult to address the doctrinal problems without gutting the denomination completely, which is why as much as there is pushback from liberals, their concerns can't really be addressed in any meaningful way. Same with other prophet-based (outside of Jesus) denominations. Once you remove the prophet and their errors, there's nothing left.

That's why I think it's important for the body of Christ to unite around the key tenets of Christianity. Much of the dividing lines that we create are not salvific issues anyway.
 
Kurlee said:
@kanozas


I know it may sound strange, but I genuinely think that THEY think they are witnessing to you. I find it off-putting, but I try to at least understand why and where people are coming from when they do things so that I don't just get pissed off.

I also think if we are open, we can learn from sharing information on here, because it's not necessarily about denominational allegiance, but what the word of God says, and that may overlap into many of the artificial divisions and denominations that we've created.
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I'm just realizing why SDA was mentioned. I know SDA and they have NEVER treated me as such. So, thanks for that clarification. As to the red-bolded, this is far beyond minor irritation and benign insult. It is absolute, intentional charge of evil. We catholics get it all the time but this is relentless. Call someone who receives the body and blood Christ in a state of grace as belonging to the WHORE of BAbylon and that we are influenced by Satan ...that's beyond inadvertent misunderstandings resulting in minor insults and such. This is not the first time these copy/paste ad nauseum are posted. There are countless digs at the RCC, whether that person truly believes she is witnessing or not. And I mean, EVERYTHING is picked apart. Well, OP should take her issue up with Jesus, who instituted the Church. But she may not like the answer.
 
@Kurlee I actually think that SDA can survive the admission that Ellen G White was a bible commentator that had flaws like any other human. I have found some of her writings helpful and others completely misguided. I have never felt that SDA should be defined by a prophetess and there are many who feel the same. Our belief that there is harmony between the old and New Testament is distinctive even if it is not unique. Also, our belief that observing certain aspects of the law out of love is defining. We don't believe the law saves you or justifies you but we do believe in obeying certain aspects of the law as an expression of our love toward God. We also have a different understanding of death and hell than many other denominations. Whether that will be enough to distinguish us from other Sabbatarian denominations will remain to be seen.

One of the main issues some see in the church is that many SDA are practicing the religion sans EGW. That is why I am certain the church can survive putting EGW in her proper place. She is increasingly not being preached from the pulpit and many refer to her as a commentator. The church also freely admits that not all of her writings are prophetic which is a huge step in the right direction. I don't think all of SDA dogma is in error. However, I believe using EGW's writings to interpret the bible has lead to some errors.
 
kanozas said:
I'm just realizing why SDA was mentioned. I know SDA and they have NEVER treated me as such. So, thanks for that clarification. As to the red-bolded, this is far beyond minor irritation and benign insult. It is absolute, intentional charge of evil. We catholics get it all the time but this is relentless. Call someone who receives the body and blood Christ in a state of grace as belonging to the WHORE of BAbylon and that we are influenced by Satan ...that's beyond inadvertent misunderstandings resulting in minor insults and such. This is not the first time these copy/paste ad nauseum are posted. There are countless digs at the RCC, whether that person truly believes she is witnessing or not. And I mean, EVERYTHING is picked apart. Well, OP should take her issue up with Jesus, who instituted the Church. But she may not like the answer.
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I totally get your frustration. All i'm saying is that it's part of the doctrine, so that may be why it's coming out like that. Some are aware of the anti-catholic rhetoric, others aren't and some consciously reject it.
 
Ladies let me know how you want this thread to continue.

It should be a message of sharing, not disparaging or offensive. I have to admit that I have not taken the time to read all of the OP, however please let me know how you want this to continue.

Thanks in advance. :love2:
 
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