Reformed Abusers?

[donna894]

My responses are in green.

That is a shocking story. I probably should have explained more when I started the thread. I certainly don't want to leave you ladies with the impression that my ex- was constantly physically beating me. That is not at all the case; that was the exception rather than the rule. No we didn’t get the impression he was constantly physically beating you – you mentioned his singing and other positive qualities. But the point is this: whether its constant or not is irrelevant because it should NOT be happening at all – NO EXCEPTIONS.

I could never have tolerated that; Actually over time you could. Each time an abuser is able to act out and then make up with his victim, he becomes more powerful and his victim gets weaker. Abuse always escalates over time, usually in a manner so slow the victim is unaware of the erosion of her self esteem and her lack of personal boundaries. given his size and athleticism, I never could have hidden the bruises and I'd probably be dead. Maybe the reason your not dead is because you left him. If the relationship progressed and his abusive behavior escalated, anything could have happened.

Most of his behavior was verbal abuse, some very graphic threats, some restraining, some shoving, and some slapping; and because of his size (6'3" and 250 lbs; vs. 5'3" and 115 lbs) and my recollection of the times when he did get physical, I was mostly really intimidated by his threats. Then came all the attentiveness, the tenderness, the serenading, etc. Now, I know that those threats were abuse as well. And the cycle repeats itself. You’ve just described the classic abuser pattern.

And I'm so much stronger now and could stand up to him if necessary; but it won't be necessary. Please don’t deceive yourself. You say that he’s 6’3 and weighs 250 lbs and you are 5’3 and weight 115 lbs and you can “stand up to him if necessary”??? How??? Given his size and your’s , he could easily overpower you. And yes, I hope it won't be necessary. You are so much better than this and deserve better.

The last time, after withstanding a year and a half of his abuse, it worked out that I met someone else and moved to where he couldn't find me. And I did feel terribly guilty because I did the very thing that he always accused me of; and it kind of made him right about not being able to trust me. Now this here is another classic example of emotional/mental abuse. So you ended up doing the very thing he accused you of. Question: Which came first, was it his accusations or your behavior? I will bet next month’s mortgage it was his accusations. As a child I was often told that I was ugly, stupid, etc. and you know what, eventually I came to be believe that I was ugly, stupid, etc and I began to act on it. This is all part of a very sick game. The abuser plants the seeds by making false accusations and when it actually happens he feels vindicated and that it is his right to act out however he chooses, usually verbal and/or physical intimidation. And now he can't trust you after he has abused you?? If this wasn't so sick, it would be funny. Can you honestly say you trust him? I should never have answered his recent friend request on Facebook. But we've been out twice, he seems so sincere in saying that he's always adored me, I don't see any signs of his past behavior, and I still have strong feelings for him; so I just thought I would ask whether anyone had ever heard of a successful reformed abuser. And it's like the Christian thing to do is to forgive him. Yes, the Christian thing to do is to forgive him. But you don’t need to have a relationship and/or contact with him in order to do that.

But now, thinking back to our dinner last week, I just remember him saying more than once, "I'll never let you go this time"; and I'm beginning to question what he meant by that--it's half-flattering and half-frightening, sort of a double-meaning. This is a sign of his past behavior. Your woman’s intuition knows it. That’s why you got that half-frightening feeling when he said “I’ll never let you go.” Such a statement coming from him (of all people) should never be considered flattering. That was a thinly veiled threat and I hope you take it seriously. What if you want to go or move on? You should be able to do so . He is using his same old strategies, being romantic, sweet talk about how he always adored you – well he adored you, how could he behave the way he did. True love is never abusive.

I want to thank everyone for their concern and input. And no, I definitely don't want to live in terror again.

Shawn I am really concerned for you. I have seen too many precious women walk this path. You have a lot to sort through and your strong feelings for him may impair your judgment. I can tell that you are an amazing and kind person. I fear that you may not realize how much you've been affected by this relationship. I hope you'll take time out for yourself to work this through.

 

[dlewis]

I know of several people (men and women) who are reformed abusers. People in my family.

I would NOT chance it though.

 

[kayte]

[

QUOTE=Shawn;9912204]That is a shocking story. I probably should have explained more when I started the thread. I certainly don't want to leave you ladies with the impression that my ex- was constantly physically beating me. That is not at all the case; that was the exception rather than the rule. I could never have tolerated that; given his size and athleticism, I never could have hidden the bruises and I'd probably be dead. Most of his behavior was verbal abuse, some very graphic threats, some restraining, some shoving, and some slapping; and because of his size (6'3" and 250 lbs; vs. 5'3" and 115 lbs) and my recollection of the times when he did get physical, I was mostly really intimidated by his threats. Then came all the attentiveness, the tenderness, the serenading, etc. Now, I know that those threats were abuse as well. And I'm so much stronger now and could stand up to him if necessary; but it won't be necessary.

the red is denial
the black bolded is WHAT actually happened
the blue is a definte of what it can escalate to if you go back
this is all out of your own voice...
you ALREADY KNOW

The last time, after withstanding a year and a half of his abuse, it worked out that I met someone else and moved to where he couldn't find me. And I did feel terribly guilty because I did the very thing that he always accused me of; and it kind of made him right about not being able to trust me. I should never have answered his recent friend request on Facebook. But we've been out twice, he seems so sincere in saying that he's always adored me, I don't see any signs of his past behavior, and I still have strong feelings for him; so I just thought I would ask whether anyone had ever heard of a successful reformed abuser. And it's like the Christian thing to do is to forgive him. But now, thinking back to our dinner last week, I just remember him saying more than once, "I'll never let you go this time"; and I'm beginning to question what he meant by that--it's half-flattering and half-frightening, sort of a double-meaning.

I want to thank everyone for their concern and input. And no, I definitely don't want to live in terror again.

It's not flattering AT ALL....it's control...and it sounds like a threat
He was ABUSING you....you had to disappear out of fear for your life
and because he's accused..you...that means...he's right?
and that you should feel...responsible for that and guilty?
Taymac had it right OP you need to heal yourself....

it is odd...love often can be confused with violence and control
when words of endearment and tender actions are employed within that context..but these are devices..not love
some one who loves you cherishes you and wants you to be safe and happy.. ...does not harm you or wants to control you...
because then you are not..you but an object for that person

we never think about what's next..the danger that is right therethough the signs were blaring....because we have numbed ourselves to accept the intolerable as the new norm for acceptable...and than this becomes the respsonse to shoving or slapping

I could never have tolerated that;

{{meaning a different kind of physical abuse other than slapping }}

given his size and athleticism, I never could have hidden the bruises

because he didn't leave bruises? ...you were able to tolerate it?


I was involved last year with a man I thought was perfect!
gorgoeous smart,erudite in the same professional field as I am
published novelist..my age ..supportive... loving..thought I was brilliant
as a writer told me so numerous times
intense pursuit of me...incredible dates..he really put himself out for me
but shortly after that and getting really involved and once I began to really care for him..... and know him....the abuse..emotional and verbal surfaced..along with violent explosive anger ...out of control rage..physical abuse would have been next had I stayed

so the relationship ended...I'm sorry to say I actually wasn't sure even if I should...but I did...
he came back and I posted about a possible reconcilation but abuse is destuctive///homicidal
even and some kind ladies pmed me warning me
and I did JUST AS I ADVISED YOU

I came to terms that I loved him but that ANY chance of romantic love partnership
would never again happen with him and me
and I forgave him! for my own good
when he re-approached me
.I said glad things are better..please good take care of yourself

...and had closure and it was/is
permanently over.

I hope this made sense to you OP
((hugs))

 

[donna894]

I know of several people (men and women) who are reformed abusers. People in my family.

I would NOT chance it though.

How did they reform themselves? What bothers me is how do I know they're truly reformed. Maybe I just haven't hit one of their triggers yet. I certainly wouldn't want to get too close to an abuser to find out.

 

[dlewis]

How did they reform themselves? What bothers me is how do I know they're truly reformed. Maybe I just haven't hit one of their triggers yet.

I believe people do change. With my family members I think it came with age. I know one person hasn't hit anyone in about 14 years. Another hasn't hit anyone in about 20 years.

 

[donna894]

I believe people do change. With my family members I think it came with age. I know one person hasn't hit anyone in about 14 years. Another hasn't hit anyone in about 20 years.

Well age will slow you up When my father tries to get his gangsta on, people look at him strange and tell him to sit his self down.

 

[awhyley]

UNFRIEND HIM RIGHT AWAY and discontinue contact immediately. He's trying to suck you back in again, (i.e. honeymoon stage); so don't fall for it!

I believe people do change. With my family members I think it came with age. I know one person hasn't hit anyone in about 14 years. Another hasn't hit anyone in about 20 years.

But are they verbally nasty? Not being able to hit is only one thing. Being menacing and intimidating is just as bad. Did they mellow over time? Are they sorry for the actions of their youth? This intrigues me.

 

[dlewis]

UNFRIEND HIM RIGHT AWAY and discontinue contact immediately. He's trying to suck you back in again, (i.e. honeymoon stage); so don't fall for it!



But are they verbally nasty? NO

Not being able to hit is only one thing. Being menacing and intimidating is just as bad. Did they mellow over time? YES

Are they sorry for the actions of their youth? YES

This intrigues me.

I have watched these people change. So this is not hearsay. These people are very very different.

 

[TayMac]

Block him. His statement didn't sound flattering to me..it says to me I'll hurt you/kill you if you leave me again...

OP most abusers aren't beating on spouses/GF everyday..that's what makes it a terror. You don't know when it's coming or what will be the next trigger.

 

[NOEChic]

notice that not one woman has come in here to say that THEY'VE personally got back with a man who abused them and it was happily ever after.

please notice that.

my ex begged me not to get a divorce, but he was still doing the things ge was doing, while in the church and on the advisory board...i got rid of his *** quickly

 

[suburbanbushbabe]

He has become quite a bit more religious than he was a few years back when we were together. And he says that he's different; he seems different. He says he's very sorry, has begged me to forgive him and asked for another chance.

The whole begging for forgiveness is part of the abuse cycle. You'll never know if and when he's going to hurt you if you stay with him. What kind of a life is that?

^^^When I said I couldn't tell what I had done wrong, it was weird. I mean, I always thought I was being understanding and thoughtful and loving. And out of nowhere, he would get angry with me and ruin a perfectly good day/evening for us. But the chemistry was always so incredible--and his timing is such that he's caught me between relationships. So maybe that's the "hold."

I'll be as frank as I can. You're being set up. An abuser will always look for a woman who will question her behavior and not his, no matter how nasty he gets.

it worked out that I met someone else and moved to where he couldn't find me. And I did feel terribly guilty because I did the very thing that he always accused me of; and it kind of made him right about not being able to trust me. I should never have answered his recent friend request on Facebook. But we've been out twice, he seems so sincere in saying that he's always adored me, I don't see any signs of his past behavior, and I still have strong feelings for him;

If you were so afraid of his finding you that you had to erase yourself from his presence and uproot yourself and your life -- can you just listen to yourself for one second and hear your past fear level? Listen to yourself saying how a man who emotionally, verbally and physically abused couldn't trust you because you left him and went into another relationship. And you won't see signs of his past behavior until he has you hooked.

And in the time you were not together, what other woman has he abused? He wants to come back to you because he thinks he can repeat his past "successes" with you. Please get into some therapy yourself so you can examine why you are contemplating going back into a relationship that was abusive for you, and what aspect of you has a need to live with such fear.

 

[hopeful]

^^^When I said I couldn't tell what I had done wrong, it was weird. I mean, I always thought I was being understanding and thoughtful and loving. And out of nowhere, he would get angry with me and ruin a perfectly good day/evening for us. But the chemistry was always so incredible--and his timing is such that he's caught me between relationships. So maybe that's the "hold."

ETA: Thanks ladies. I appreciate your input. I plan to ask him about whether he's had professional counseling. We haven't gotten to that point yet.

Please do not even waste your time asking him the bolded. I really hope you don't give him a second chance. He doesn't deserve it and you deserve so much better. Enjoy your "in between" time and don't be in such a rush to get back into a relationship. You are a tiny, beautiful woman, dealing with a huge, abusive man. Why would you put yourself in that kind of vulnerable situation? I would be afraid to be alone with him, afraid of upsetting him.

Being alone is better than being afraid. I'd rather be dateless for the next five years than take a chance on a former abuser who made me feel like I had to disappear in order to be safe. Love and protect yourself first and foremost. I don't understand why you let him back into your life. You cannot be that lonely and he cannot be that charming that you are willing to risk your peace and safety.

 

[MissYocairis]

How did they reform themselves? What bothers me is how do I know they're truly reformed. Maybe I just haven't hit one of their triggers yet. I certainly wouldn't want to get too close to an abuser to find out.

I've heard about these Batterer Intervention Programs (BIP's) being ineffective because they teach a batterer how to become more cunning and manipulative than before...they teach them how to hide it until it's too late. You are right to be concerned. We don't know if they are truly reformed. If they are in situations without the "tension" phase of the cycle...they won't instigate the "incident" phase. They learn to talk the right talk through BIP's but how can anyone know for sure it's actual reformation?

 

[MissYocairis]

Shawn...I've never seen a reformed abuser. Please check your pm's.

I have to repeat again...THE most dangerous time for a battered woman is once she tries to LEAVE. This man has, in very plain words, explained to you that he WILL NOT let you go. Do you realize what that means? It doesn't mean that he'll do the personal work necessary to keep you...it means that he cannot HANDLE losing you....and do you know what that means? It means that, if things get hairy again, and, statistics show, this is HIGHLY likely, and you try to leave...he will NOT be able to accept it and he will not let you go.

Take his words as the WARNING that they are. You do NOT want to be in a situation like this. Let it go. Let him go. Wish him well and forgive him if you must but do not sacrifice your wellbeing and LIFE on a hunch.

 

[HairBarbie]

When someone shows you who they are believe them. He has shown you that he doesn't care for you and will not treat you well. It seems like you're bent on going back to him and nothing anyone says will change your mind, so I'm not going to even try to tell you whether to go back to him or not.

You started this thread because you want someone to tell you that yes it is ok. The only advice I'm going to give you is to take self-defense classes and carry a mase and taser with you at all times. I can't imagine why anyone would want to live in fear and danger, but to each his/her own.

 

[biancaelyse]

Honestly, I can only think of one reformed abuser and he is someone that got help (counseling) while in his teens/early 20s.

He was very messed up from having an absent and abusive father. I don't think he would have been able to change had he been too much older - he was still a "boy" in many ways, really wanted to be different from his dad and that made him more "teachable."

Other than that, I can't think of a single other man that has successfully been reformed.

 

[Shawn]

Shawn...I've never seen a reformed abuser. Please check your pm's.

I have to repeat again...THE most dangerous time for a battered woman is once she tries to LEAVE. This man has, in very plain words, explained to you that he WILL NOT let you go. Do you realize what that means? It doesn't mean that he'll do the personal work necessary to keep you...it means that he cannot HANDLE losing you....and do you know what that means? It means that, if things get hairy again, and, statistics show, this is HIGHLY likely, and you try to leave...he will NOT be able to accept it and he will not let you go.

Take his words as the WARNING that they are. You do NOT want to be in a situation like this. Let it go. Let him go. Wish him well and forgive him if you must but do not sacrifice your wellbeing and LIFE on a hunch.

Thanks again to everyone for their posts and PMs. I've been really struggling and crying off and on for days. I just don't think it's possible for most people to understand just how happy and connected we were most of the time; it was like we were made for each other--sharing all the same dreams and desires. Initially, I interpreted his statement that he would never let me go this time only to mean that he would put in the work necessary to keep me and for us to be happy. Any other interpretation was unthinkable to me. But as I thought about the other possible interpretation, I got scared of him again. I think I was leaning toward the more favorable interpretation because, in apologizing profusely, he said I was beautiful and perfect (I know no one's perfect), and he admitted to me that I was better off without him while he was growing; and he hasn't blamed me, accused me, or asked me whether I was with anyone else while I was away, all of which is so very different from his past behaviors. And because he knows how badly he hurt me, he has been giving me all the space I need.

I guess I'll never know why he has singled me out for this torture; he is the type that could have any woman he wanted, and I would have expected him to move on pretty easily. But I want you all to know that I've read and digested all of your many warnings, and I intend to act to protect my safety. Thank you.

 

[donna894]

Thank you for posting. You have been on my mind and in my prayers, but I didn't want to pressure you to respond before you were ready. Many of the ladies who posted in this thread, including myself are in healthy, stable, relationships with our spouses. So, YES, we can understand how wonderful it is to feel connected, happy and to share your dreams with a loving, committed partner.

While you interpreted his comment to mean he would put in the necessary work to improve the relationship, that's not what he actually said. But I think that's what you wanted to hear, so that's how you interpreted it. It is not enough for him to tell you sweet things – talk is cheap. What exactly is he going to do? Did he specifically say he was going into long term counseling? Has he given you the name of the counselor and scheduled appointments? Because that is what is needed to help him change his behavior.

Please don’t beat yourself up wondering why he singled you out. He did not single you out. This is who he is and this is how he treats people (especially women). You say he could have any woman he wanted. If you’ve read this thread, then you know that is not true. Women who love themselves and have self esteem will not tolerate his behavior. It would happen one time and never again, because they would be gone, the relationship over. And you expected him to move on pretty easily – but that didn’t happen. Why not? Think about that please.

Do you love yourself? Do you honor yourself by establishing boundaries (ie., zero tolerance for anyone raising their hand against you or threatening you, zero tolerance for anyone falsely accusing you)? I ask because you can’t protect yourself if you don’t love yourself . And if you really loved yourself, you would stay far, far, away from abusive relationships.

 

[awhyley]

I just don't think it's possible for most people to understand just how happy and connected we were most of the time; it was like we were made for each other

Excuses, excuses. The remainder of the time, you were living in fear, not having a normal relationship.

While you interpreted his comment to mean he would put in the necessary work to improve the relationship, that's not what he actually said. But I think that's what you wanted to hear, so that's how you interpreted it. It is not enough for him to tell you sweet things – talk is cheap. What exactly is he going to do? Did he specifically say he was going into long term counseling? Has he given you the name of the counselor and scheduled appointments? Because that is what is needed to help him change his behavior.

Please don’t beat yourself up wondering why he singled you out. He did not single you out. This is who he is and this is how he treats people (especially women). You say he could have any woman he wanted. If you’ve read this thread, then you know that is not true. Women who love themselves and have self esteem will not tolerate his behavior. It would happen one time and never again, because they would be gone, the relationship over. And you expected him to move on pretty easily – but that didn’t happen. Why not? Think about that please.

Co-fricking-sign.

 

[ambergirl]

Girl, I am on deadline at work but I just had to jump in here.

First off I do believe people can change and abusive people can stop the cycle. I know of two men and one woman who have. However, I would strongly advise that you not reengage with this man.

I was in an abusive relationship when I was young and the cycle you describe is exactly what I experienced. When things were good they were the BEST...charm, love, roses, intimacy, you name it. But when things were bad it came out of the blue, and was absolutely horrible. I also believed that I could learn to "manage" the situation by trying to figure out how to not set him off, but the thing is his anger was never about me. I was the focus of his anger and frustration but not the cause. I later learned that he had been sexually abused as a child and this was what was at the core of his abusiveness.

He chased me trying get me to go back to him for years....some 8 years after we broke up I was at a weak point plus he had disclosed his history of abuse, that he had gone to therapy, and his interest in trying it again so I went out with him a few times.

What I found was that you really can't go back again on some things. Abusive behavior in a relationship establishes a pattern that is very hard to break. Even if the abuse isn't present,the energy and pattern of that abusive way of interacting is omipresent in the relationship. Hope that makes sense.

Also, there are some boundaries (like physical or severe emotional abuse) that can not be repaired once they are crossed. Needless to say I ended it. He has since gone on to another relationship in which he says he's not abusive and since I know folks who know him and his new SO well, I believe it to be true. But I do not believe for one minute that we could have had a healthy relationship.

The reality is that we can love people but that doesn't mean we should be in a relationship with them. If he's truly a changed man he will see the truth of that and stop pushing.

I think you both need to release each other so you can move forward in your life and both find more suitable partners.

 

[JustKiya]

My mother was married to an emotionally and verbally abusive man. The only reason he didn't raise his hand to her was because he was a coward at heart. He had no issues with 'discipling' me, though. She left - and went back to him - 3 times.

Each time, he supposedly had 'gotten straight' with God, and had 'counseling' and had 'reformed'. Each time - and it took less time for him to 'fall off' each time, too - he had NOT reformed. Lost a job? Had some stress in the mosque? Dinner wasn't what he wanted? Yeah, it started all over again.

And he kept coming back to her because she was one of the few women who would put up with him. It had nothing to do with who she was as a strong, beautiful, intelligent woman. It had to do with the fact that she was a lonely woman who had fallen in love with an abuser, and that she would tolerate his behavior in an attempt to 'make nice' and to avoid an explosion.

We've never actually talked about what occurred (9 months into the 3rd return) to prompt her to pack us up, rent a Uhaul, and leave in a single day while he was at work. I suspect it had something to do with his plans/intentions for 15 y/o me. I suspect that if she had truly been beaten down enough to consider agreeing to forbidding me to go to college (as I know he planned) - we would still be in that situation.

It's not worth it. It's never worth the risk to return to a man who abused you. I know you've made your choice, but I had to share my story to give you some insight into someone who DID return to their abuser.

 

[Keen]

Thanks again to everyone for their posts and PMs. I've been really struggling and crying off and on for days. I just don't think it's possible for most people to understand just how happy and connected we were most of the time; it was like we were made for each other--sharing all the same dreams and desires. Initially, I interpreted his statement that he would never let me go this time only to mean that he would put in the work necessary to keep me and for us to be happy. Any other interpretation was unthinkable to me. But as I thought about the other possible interpretation, I got scared of him again. I think I was leaning toward the more favorable interpretation because, in apologizing profusely, he said I was beautiful and perfect (I know no one's perfect), and he admitted to me that I was better off without him while he was growing; and he hasn't blamed me, accused me, or asked me whether I was with anyone else while I was away, all of which is so very different from his past behaviors. And because he knows how badly he hurt me, he has been giving me all the space I need.

I guess I'll never know why he has singled me out for this torture; he is the type that could have any woman he wanted, and I would have expected him to move on pretty easily. But I want you all to know that I've read and digested all of your many warnings, and I intend to act to protect my safety. Thank you.

What makes you think he singled you out? Are you 100% sure he never abused another woman?

 

[panamoni]

He has become quite a bit more religious than he was a few years back when we were together. And he says that he's different; he seems different. He says he's very sorry, has begged me to forgive him and asked for another chance.

Sometimes religion can increase the level of superiority men feel over women, and worsen the abuse. In my experience, religious avenues don't provide sufficient long term transformative counseling to reform abusive behaviors.

Anything is a possibility...

But that is not something I would take a chance on having been in an abusive relationship before.

What steps did they take to reform? Counseling/therapy/anger management?

I agree. Please read the book by Lundy Bancroft, Why Does He Do That?
http://www.amazon.com/Why-Does-He-T...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1264020077&sr=8-1

It takes A LOT to change -- A LOT of intense work directly related to changing the abuse. Chances are, he has not changed.

 

[deltagyrl]

My dad will be 70 this year and he is still abusive.

Please be careful.