Questions you always wanted to ask
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kiesha8185
Active Member
kiesha8185
Active Member
I agree.
It is just human nature to categorize things and I think we do that with God for one of two reasons: 1) to apply human characteristics to Him so that we can relate to Him 2) to put Him in a box so that our finite minds can try and grasp the infinite God.
kiesha8185
Active Member
Can a Christian lose their salvation? I recently had a discussion about this with other believers; I believe that they cannot. What do you all think?
softblackcotton
Well-Known Member
CoilyFields, these are some very excellent answers. You are right we can not rely on human reasoning to figure out God.
blazingthru
Well-Known Member
Yes a Christian can lose his/her salvation. Everyday we are to commit ourselves to Christ because everyday we have Satan challenging us more and more especially now as we draw closer to the end. It becomes difficult not to fall back into our old habits, ideals, feelings and so forth. Also there are new truths we will learn as we read the word and for some people it pulls them away from God. Case in point, my daughter was baptized and declared her faith but she was young when she did it, she was committed but as she got older she realize that she was not ready for that straight and narrow she wanted the far and wide because everything is so fascinating for her and that is our life, the world is always pulling us away from God. Who controls the world Satan, this world is his and for us to remain Christians and draw closer to God its a daily commitment. Thats is also why as Christians we spend a lot of time on our knees, it is not an easy life. If it is something is wrong. If your not going through something something ain't right, however God does give us time of peace.
Hebrews 10:23, 24,26
23Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised
24And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
CoilyFields
Well-Known Member
@kiesha8185
we tangled with this question here http://www.longhaircareforum.com/showthread.php?t=504567
But here are my answers (kinda long sorry):
1. Ephesians 2:8-9 explains that we have achieved salvation by Gods grace through our faith. Not by works so that no one can boast.
So if we can't do enough good works to earn our way into heaven, conversly we can't do anything bad enough to revoke Gods promise. His grace offered it and our faith led us to accept it. The end.
We should still strive to live a holy life but the Bible says even our righteousness is as filthy rags (compared to a perfect God). Our good works (including not sinning ) is for our relationship with God and so that others see our good works and praise God.
2. The Bible talks about many folks not inheriting the kingdom of heaven/God. There are two meanings to this phrase. One refers to heaven the place God dwells. The other refers to the kingdom of heaven inside each believer. Romans 14:17 explains that kingdom is righteousness, peace, and joy in the holy ghost. So it is possible for your sins to effect these areas. Your unrighteous acts affect your relationship with God, you won't have peace with others, and you will not have joy...the kingdom of God on the inside of us while on earth...not our eternal status.
3. If whenever we sin we had to get saved all over again then the blood of Christ would be ineffective. The priests used to have to constantly go before God offering burnt sacrifices for the people (under the law) because that sacrifice was only good for that one sin, they continually stood before God. But the reason Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice was because he, the high priest, the sacrificial lamb, only had to die once for all. Past present and future sins. And when he was done the bible said he sat down! Cuz the work was done and he now sits making intercession for us (asking Gods grace on our behalf). (This leads to pauls plea for us not to sin haphazardly just because grace is abounding)
God established the law in the OT. But NO ONE was good enough to be able to keep the law in deed and in their hearts.
Thats why we needed Jesus...a savior to bridge the gap that our sin caused between us and God. So if our good deeds couldnt bridge that gap before...why would we believe our bad deeds could destroy the power of that bridge (the blood of Jesus).
Okay, with saying this.... why should she do the WORK it takes to not repeat the sin if her past, present, and future sins are forgiven by the sacrificial lamb of God?[/QUOTE]
See salvation is the gift of eternal life with God. We could never be good enough to earn that "right" so we needed Jesus' "rightousness ticket" to get us in. This is gauranteed. The wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life. AFTER we have accepted him we are to live lives as befitting a co-heir of Jesus CHrist. The eternal battle has already been won but we must now train our bodies to be subject to our spirit (the new-born spirit of incorruptable seed).
When you are a child of the King you want to represent him accurately. and those who are overtaken in a fault (practicing sin) have allowed their flesh to reign rather than the spirit. They are acting out, and will be chestized accordingly. But their salvation will not be taken away.
So what is the motivator for saved folk to do right if they already have eternal life? We are still subject to the laws that God has put in place-sowing/reaping, trials to test/strengthen your faith etc. GOd will not allow us to "rest" in our sin. God knows our hearts and deals with us accordingly.
For example:God made a covenant with the children of isreal. As a sign he had the males be circumcized. Now these doggone people...lol...before AND AFTER they obtained part of the promise (the land) they still rebelled against him. But He did not require that they be Re-Circumcized after every sin...because HIS promise to them never changed...their actions took them down paths that were not very plesant for them but they never became "un-chosen" due to their actions and eventually produced the long awaited massiah of the world (the rest of the promise).
As for those folks at judgement day that he says he never knew...it wasn't that they had salvation and then he took it back...it was that they had never truly accepted him in their hearts to begin with. And ONLY they and God know if their heart is truly his or if they just said some words on a sunday. For those in a sorority its like saying, "Well Lord I wore pink and green, and I threw up my pinkie in pictures, and I skee-wee'd" and He says, "But You know you were not an AKA"
The consequences to a jacked up relationship with God are real. He has a way of getting our attention. I've said this before and I'll say it again, I "shacked up" with my husband for two years before we got married (participating in some not-quite but really was fornicating activities). I prayed and cried and "repented" and said I would stop...then I kept doing it. Then repeated the same thing over and over but guess what...I never put him out! Felt HORIBBLE sometimes but not horrible enough to do what I needed to do to stop sinning (like we were gonna magically stop wanting each other while being that close all the time lol). And well, lets just say we have been paying for it for the last two years. And when I wanted to know why things were going so wrong in my life, I was directed to those times I chose my guy over my God. God is not mocked. To repent means to turn away from. So if you keep doing it like I did most times its really that you just feel guilt, shame, sorrowful...but you haven't repented.
But no matter how bad I am...nothing can seperate my from the love of God. How did he show his love? In while we were yet sinners Christ died and granted me eternal life
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CoilyFields
Well-Known Member
My question is;
People who have never heard the gospel, how are they judged? Is it according to their hearts then?
In addition, what about people of different religions...if I grew up some religion, I would not be open to others coming along telling me it was wrong. (I know there is only one way to salvation and that is through Jesus Christ so I am not saying their religions/beliefs are right but just how will they be judged)
Lemme answer my own question lol
We have to rely on the same power of the holy ghost that persuaded us to persuade them...
These are the questions that plagued me for a while. Though they are a little unsettling, I trust that the answers will be fair because we serve a fair and just God.
People who have never heard the gospel, how are they judged? Is it according to their hearts then?
In addition, what about people of different religions...if I grew up some religion, I would not be open to others coming along telling me it was wrong. (I know there is only one way to salvation and that is through Jesus Christ so I am not saying their religions/beliefs are right but just how will they be judged)
Lemme answer my own question lol
We have to rely on the same power of the holy ghost that persuaded us to persuade them...
These are the questions that plagued me for a while. Though they are a little unsettling, I trust that the answers will be fair because we serve a fair and just God.
I was just sharing my experience and I explain it to you in my previous post.
Why would I say or even think that you are MOCKING God ???
I read your posts in this forum, I know you are honest.
This is good!
Let's keep moving on.
The Bereans did the same thing :
Acts. 17.11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
Why would I say or even think that you are MOCKING God ???
I read your posts in this forum, I know you are honest.
This is good!
Let's keep moving on.
The Bereans did the same thing :
Acts. 17.11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
For this one, I tend to believe like this :
The Three Eternal Destinies of Man
Two Trees – Three Eternal Destinies
"The Three Eternal Destinies of Man"
can be clearly seen from the beginning of mankind.
There in the center of the Garden of Eden, the Creator placed:
The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil and the Tree of Life.
These two trees foretold the three eternal destinies of mankind:
The Unjust and Filthy
The Righteous
The Holy
.....
Spiritual death always precedes physical death. Their spirit was severed from their Creator, the very Source of their life and being.
But all was not lost. True, Adam and Eve had fallen, but they were not given a hopeless start to life. Instead, God made a Second Covenant with fallen man, giving them the responsibility to obey their conscience with the promise that if it was faithfully attended to, they would reap a great reward.
…..
Every man and woman will have to give account before their Creator for what they have done — whether good or evil. They will be judged on the basis of the deeds which they have committed during their lifetime. A person's deeds will be examined in relation to the highest standard of knowledge within his conscience.
…..
However, if a person's deeds in judgment align them consistently with the "evil" he knew in his conscience to turn away from, then a second eternal death will be awarded to them. His part will be in the "lake that burns with fire." This is the Second Death. He, likewise, deserves it. You can be certain that everyone will be awarded in eternity that which he truly deserves.
.....
Most importantly, man (after the fall) was commissioned to overcome and master those kinds of sins that would cause him to break even this second covenant. If the Second Covenant was broken, the Second Death would be inevitable — unless the mercy of our Creator could reach man's heart through the sacrifice of His Son Yahshua. It was Yahshua the Messiah who would make the third eternal destiny possible for all of mankind. Both the Righteous sinner (who remained loyal to the Covenant of Conscience) and the Wicked (who forsook this Covenant) were in need of forgiveness and a means of escape from Death altogether.
It was this Yahshua who made the way possible for both the Righteous and the Filthy and Unjust to be a part of the third eternal destiny — the Holy City.
[FONT="]The following sections briefly outline from Scripture the characteristics of four kinds of people who await one of the Three Eternal Destinies of Man.[/FONT]
The Unjust — Their Eternal Destiny is the Lake of Fire
There are many ways a person can fit into the category of the Unjust. The word itself means: "to injure or hurt morally, socially, physically, to be unfaithful (treacherous), acting contrary to the standard of what is right, not motivated or controlled by justice; false; dishonest, wrongful, driven by unlawful or false gain."
Those who practice lying, deceit, greed, laziness, dishonesty and slander are among those who would be considered "unjust." These people didn't just do these things once or twice, but their lives are characterized by one or more of these aspects. Most who fit these descriptions may even have a nice veneer and appear to be quite respectable in society.
One of the characteristics of the Unjust is the practice of lying.
…..
The Filthy — Their Eternal Destiny is Also the Lake of Fire
The Filthy and Unjust share in the same eternal destiny, since they both gave up the "good" conscience they originally possessed and chose rather to be given over to doing what is evil. They "became" dysfunctional as human beings, no longer living within the perimeters of their conscience. They are masters of disguise, preying upon others without fear.
The word filthy truly describes the worthless character of those who give themselves over to degrading and abominable acts of immorality. They suppress the good they know, in order to follow after the base appetites they have for pleasure and indulgence. They may appear at first not so obviously filthy but by their deeds they betray themselves. The filthy have lost their sense of morality and good judgment. They use and abuse others to fulfill their own fleshly appetites, acting upon their own selfish impulses without any restraint or regard for the people they destroy and discard.
They were not born filthy, but they became filthy by the continual rejection of their conscience.
…..
The Righteous — Their Eternal Destiny is the Nations
Every human being is born into the category of the Righteous, because each one is created in the image of the Creator with an inborn, instinctive knowledge of Him. Although all men come forth from the fallen seed of Adam, inheriting the iniquities of their fathers, they are born with a conscience and the ability to obey it. Since Adam fell, every man has been born with an inclination to sin –a selfish bent– but not an inclination to silence his conscience. The conscience is a precious gift from a loving Creator who desires to steer man away from those kinds of sins that would take him to a place of eternal torment.
To be righteous means to be innocent, free from guilt, and just in character and trait. They are not guilty for corrupting and taking away the innocence of another person. The righteous care for their neighbor as they would themselves. They do not tear down the reputation of others, but always seek to strengthen and support "good" wherever it is shown. They do not show partiality, but have a sense of equity and fairness in all their dealings with others. The people who characterize the righteous do not give up the struggle to live by their conscience; they consistently choose good over evil. Even though they are not sinless, they pay attention to the voice of their conscience and seek to make amends for any hurt or wrongdoing.
The lives of these people are consistent. The man will work hard and honestly to provide for his family, and he will care for them in every way. His wife bears the pain of bringing forth life so that her heart would be bonded to her offspring; she will not choose the easier option of a pain-free labor. They genuinely care about people and treat them fairly and respectfully. The good deeds they do are not for the sake of being noticed. Rather, they are prompted in their conscience to act in sincerity and loyalty to the standards they know are right. Though they err, they are conscience-stricken and try to restore any damage done (wherever it is possible or within their power to do so). They keep within the boundaries of their conscience and do what is right with good intent, unlike the unjust who do the wrong thing with evil intent.
…..
These people will not be condemned to the Lake of Fire simply because they did not believe in "Jesus," but they will inherit a second life in eternity called the Eternal Kingdom of the Nations. Although the righteous sinner must pay for the penalty of his sin by experiencing the First Death, people who heed the voice of their conscience will find mercy on the Day of Judgment.
.....
The Holy — Their Eternal Destiny is the Holy City
The term "Holy" literally means: set apart for sacred purpose — to the service or worship of God; reserved from profane or common use. Therefore, those who obey the gospel are "set apart" for His sake and for the gospel's sake (meaning: cause or purpose of the gospel). The Holy are entirely separated from the world and their own personal sins to now live in service to the One who secured their forgiveness. They live a life that is "distinct, holy, and separate" from the rest of the world. That does not mean in disassociation with the physical world, but "set apart" from the spiritual realm and influences that would attempt to make them common or profaned. These holy ones withdraw from "fellowship" with the world — from what is filthy or common — since they have joined "fellowship" with God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 in the New Testament clearly expresses what the holy ones have no part in any longer. They live a life which keeps them "unstained" by fellowship with the spirits that rule the world.
…..
So, every person must choose what his eternal destiny will be. Revelation 22:11 declares The Three Eternal Destinies of Man: There will be the Unjust and Filthy still, the Righteous of the Nations still, and the Holy still. These are the final destinations for all mankind. The Creator of Heaven and Earth leaves this choice up to each individual. He has made every provision possible for mankind to partake in His ultimate plan. His desire is to live in and dwell among mankind. He wants you to see His true heart and character, so you could be a part of His ultimate purpose — throughout eternity.
…..
I don’t agree with all that was written, but the entire article can be found here :
http://www.twelvetribes.org/publications/3ED/two-trees-three-destinies.html
There are many ways a person can fit into the category of the Unjust. The word itself means: "to injure or hurt morally, socially, physically, to be unfaithful (treacherous), acting contrary to the standard of what is right, not motivated or controlled by justice; false; dishonest, wrongful, driven by unlawful or false gain."
Those who practice lying, deceit, greed, laziness, dishonesty and slander are among those who would be considered "unjust." These people didn't just do these things once or twice, but their lives are characterized by one or more of these aspects. Most who fit these descriptions may even have a nice veneer and appear to be quite respectable in society.
One of the characteristics of the Unjust is the practice of lying.
…..
The Filthy — Their Eternal Destiny is Also the Lake of Fire
The Filthy and Unjust share in the same eternal destiny, since they both gave up the "good" conscience they originally possessed and chose rather to be given over to doing what is evil. They "became" dysfunctional as human beings, no longer living within the perimeters of their conscience. They are masters of disguise, preying upon others without fear.
The word filthy truly describes the worthless character of those who give themselves over to degrading and abominable acts of immorality. They suppress the good they know, in order to follow after the base appetites they have for pleasure and indulgence. They may appear at first not so obviously filthy but by their deeds they betray themselves. The filthy have lost their sense of morality and good judgment. They use and abuse others to fulfill their own fleshly appetites, acting upon their own selfish impulses without any restraint or regard for the people they destroy and discard.
They were not born filthy, but they became filthy by the continual rejection of their conscience.
…..
The Righteous — Their Eternal Destiny is the Nations
Every human being is born into the category of the Righteous, because each one is created in the image of the Creator with an inborn, instinctive knowledge of Him. Although all men come forth from the fallen seed of Adam, inheriting the iniquities of their fathers, they are born with a conscience and the ability to obey it. Since Adam fell, every man has been born with an inclination to sin –a selfish bent– but not an inclination to silence his conscience. The conscience is a precious gift from a loving Creator who desires to steer man away from those kinds of sins that would take him to a place of eternal torment.
To be righteous means to be innocent, free from guilt, and just in character and trait. They are not guilty for corrupting and taking away the innocence of another person. The righteous care for their neighbor as they would themselves. They do not tear down the reputation of others, but always seek to strengthen and support "good" wherever it is shown. They do not show partiality, but have a sense of equity and fairness in all their dealings with others. The people who characterize the righteous do not give up the struggle to live by their conscience; they consistently choose good over evil. Even though they are not sinless, they pay attention to the voice of their conscience and seek to make amends for any hurt or wrongdoing.
The lives of these people are consistent. The man will work hard and honestly to provide for his family, and he will care for them in every way. His wife bears the pain of bringing forth life so that her heart would be bonded to her offspring; she will not choose the easier option of a pain-free labor. They genuinely care about people and treat them fairly and respectfully. The good deeds they do are not for the sake of being noticed. Rather, they are prompted in their conscience to act in sincerity and loyalty to the standards they know are right. Though they err, they are conscience-stricken and try to restore any damage done (wherever it is possible or within their power to do so). They keep within the boundaries of their conscience and do what is right with good intent, unlike the unjust who do the wrong thing with evil intent.
…..
These people will not be condemned to the Lake of Fire simply because they did not believe in "Jesus," but they will inherit a second life in eternity called the Eternal Kingdom of the Nations. Although the righteous sinner must pay for the penalty of his sin by experiencing the First Death, people who heed the voice of their conscience will find mercy on the Day of Judgment.
.....
The Holy — Their Eternal Destiny is the Holy City
The term "Holy" literally means: set apart for sacred purpose — to the service or worship of God; reserved from profane or common use. Therefore, those who obey the gospel are "set apart" for His sake and for the gospel's sake (meaning: cause or purpose of the gospel). The Holy are entirely separated from the world and their own personal sins to now live in service to the One who secured their forgiveness. They live a life that is "distinct, holy, and separate" from the rest of the world. That does not mean in disassociation with the physical world, but "set apart" from the spiritual realm and influences that would attempt to make them common or profaned. These holy ones withdraw from "fellowship" with the world — from what is filthy or common — since they have joined "fellowship" with God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 in the New Testament clearly expresses what the holy ones have no part in any longer. They live a life which keeps them "unstained" by fellowship with the spirits that rule the world.
…..
So, every person must choose what his eternal destiny will be. Revelation 22:11 declares The Three Eternal Destinies of Man: There will be the Unjust and Filthy still, the Righteous of the Nations still, and the Holy still. These are the final destinations for all mankind. The Creator of Heaven and Earth leaves this choice up to each individual. He has made every provision possible for mankind to partake in His ultimate plan. His desire is to live in and dwell among mankind. He wants you to see His true heart and character, so you could be a part of His ultimate purpose — throughout eternity.
…..
I don’t agree with all that was written, but the entire article can be found here :
http://www.twelvetribes.org/publications/3ED/two-trees-three-destinies.html
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blazingthru
Well-Known Member
This is just my thoughts based on some of my own opinion, I grew up one way, but I had some doubts about what I believed, then I read of the Bereans jews and these is how I study things that are told to me.
Acts 17:11 (New King James Version)
11 These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so. So they listen and then went to see ( examine) whether it was true or not. They did not reject what they heard or become offended. They sought the scriptures for the truth
Why would God want us to know this? I think because as Christians we are to be constantly studying. I am always making sure what I believe adheres to the words of God, The word is how we will be judged. My mother and father taught me one way their parents taught them but its up to us as individuals to seek God out for ourselves, he is to be personal to us. Not by following traditions and even teachings of the church. we are to examine everything. People think because your telling them a new truth your trying to convert them but it is what it is a new truth that was always there, but we never knew until now its meaning.
2 Peter 3:16-18 (New American Standard Bible)
16as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.( is this not true, many believe that people die and go straight to hell or heaven, but this is not scriptural based, not at all. Yet the few who were untaught and unstable distorted the scriptures and the world believes. This is why we pray before we read the bible and ask the holy spirit to give us understanding of the scriptures and the desire to study the scriptures daily.)
17You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness,
18but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.
If we do not study, we could easily become lost.
No one can convince me otherwise, concerning the dead. In this, I have studied the scriptures and have prayed and researched and realize that this is one area where I cannot be fooled, as I know the truth and cannot budge from it, but if someone was to say to me did you know you will need a special stone to get to heaven, Well I heard of that before so now I have something to research what does the stone mean, what does the stone represent and is it true will I need it and I will spend the time in looking for this information with prayer. God says he is going to give us a white stone. not that we need it to get into heaven.
Revelation 2:17
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches To him who overcomes, to him I will give some of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, and a new name written on the stone which no one knows but he who receives it.'
so now I have learned that those who Overcome will be given a white stone, and with a new name on it. That stone will give us access to everywhere we want to go in heaven. But what is important about this stone
Psalms 118:22
22The (A)stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief corner stone.
Isaiah 28:16
16Therefore thus says the Lord GOD,
"(A)Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a tested (B)stone,
A costly cornerstone for the foundation, firmly placed.
He who believes in it will not be disturbed.
1 Peter 2:6-8
http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/audio/play.php?aid=26&book=67&chapter=2
6For this is contained in Scripture:
"(A)BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A CHOICE STONE, A (B)PRECIOUS CORNER stone,
AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."
7(C)This precious value, then, is for you who believe; but for those who disbelieve,
"(D)THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS (E)REJECTED,
THIS BECAME THE VERY CORNER stone,"
8and,
"(F)A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE";
(G)for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, (H)and to this doom they were also appointed.
This stone is Jesus, upon whom we build our faith, he is our advisor, our counselor, our prince of peace, he is our access to everything God has in store for us. An entire sermon could be preached on this White Stone and the new name. Next thing to study is the Name and what names represent and why we need a new name, that's for another time.
So in conclusion, I believe that as Christians we need to have an open mind and be willing to sit down and research our beliefs and line them up with the scripture, I have learned a new thing every single day. To my amazement. Did you know that our faith is based on history as well, its not just a story its history, tangleable things. I hope this is a help to the question above.
ktykaty
Well-Known Member
Yes we can do something bad enough to loose our salvation. We can stop having faith or we can reject God.
Some people, when the Holy Spirit convicts them of their sins, reject God. They do tell Him:" I know you are the Lord Almighty and you see what I'm doing. I know it's wrong but I don't want you in my life, leave me alone and look the other way."
Salvation is there for us, but it isn't mandatory. We need to accept salvation not just once but persevere in accepting salvation till the end. God gave us free will, including the possibility to reject him.
Mathew 24: 9-13. At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.
bizybee316
New Member
What did Jesus sacrifice?
This is a great thread, because there are indeed many questions I have about my faith. I have not read the ENTIRE Bible, but i have read the majority of it. Here is a question that has always been in the back of my mind.
1. What exactly did Jesus sacrifice for our sins?
john 3:16
"for God so loved the world that He gave us His only begotten son, so that whoever might believe in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life"
It is said in the Bible that Jesus suffered for several hours on the cross, even crying out "my God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" After his death, he was buried in a tomb, where he arose three days later and ascended to heaven.
If I have read the bible correctly, then it would seem as though Jesus did not really sacrifice anything. Not his life, for he arose three days later. And he KNEW that he would arise three days later, and he KNEW that he would go back to heaven. During his time on earth he was still fully God, which would mean he was omniscient, which means he knew he was not really going to die. To me it seems that the only thing he really sacrificed were a few hours of uncomfort (if Gods can even FEEL pain). What is a few hours of uncomfort to a God who has eternal life?
So, what did Jesus sacrifice? Any answers would be appreciated.
This is a great thread, because there are indeed many questions I have about my faith. I have not read the ENTIRE Bible, but i have read the majority of it. Here is a question that has always been in the back of my mind.
1. What exactly did Jesus sacrifice for our sins?
john 3:16
"for God so loved the world that He gave us His only begotten son, so that whoever might believe in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life"
It is said in the Bible that Jesus suffered for several hours on the cross, even crying out "my God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" After his death, he was buried in a tomb, where he arose three days later and ascended to heaven.
If I have read the bible correctly, then it would seem as though Jesus did not really sacrifice anything. Not his life, for he arose three days later. And he KNEW that he would arise three days later, and he KNEW that he would go back to heaven. During his time on earth he was still fully God, which would mean he was omniscient, which means he knew he was not really going to die. To me it seems that the only thing he really sacrificed were a few hours of uncomfort (if Gods can even FEEL pain). What is a few hours of uncomfort to a God who has eternal life?
So, what did Jesus sacrifice? Any answers would be appreciated.
ktykaty
Well-Known Member
Re: What did Jesus sacrifice?
I learned the answer to that today at mass. Thank you for giving me and occasion to share.
sac·ri·fice
noun, verb,
1. the offering of animal, plant, or human life or of some material possession to a deity, as in propitiation or homage.
2. the person, animal, or thing so offered.
3. the surrender or destruction of something prized or desirable for the sake of something considered as having a higher or more pressing claim.7.to make a sacrifice or offering of.
8. to surrender or give up, or permit injury or disadvantage to, for the sake of something else.
9. to dispose of (goods, property, etc.) regardless of profit.
Death is the destruction of the human body. Jesus was fully God but he was also fully human. It was more than just a few hours of discomfort. On the cross he sacrificed/surrendered his humanity. (Isaiah 52:14).
Jesus came to fufill the Law, meaning he came to offer the perfect/unblemished sacrifice in atonement for sin. (Hebrews 10:10)
On the cross, Jesus offered/surrendered his life to the Father in propiation for our sins and the Father gave it back to him three days later. Jesus really died on the cross. But Jesus didn't raise himself from the dead, the Father did. (Acts 2:24)
He also sacrificed his blood on the cross to seal the New Covenant. (Hebrews 9:15-28)
I Hope this helps you.It's only a few of the many layers of explanation of what happened in Jerusalem 2000 years ago.
I learned the answer to that today at mass. Thank you for giving me and occasion to share.
sac·ri·fice
noun, verb,
1. the offering of animal, plant, or human life or of some material possession to a deity, as in propitiation or homage.
2. the person, animal, or thing so offered.
3. the surrender or destruction of something prized or desirable for the sake of something considered as having a higher or more pressing claim.7.to make a sacrifice or offering of.
8. to surrender or give up, or permit injury or disadvantage to, for the sake of something else.
9. to dispose of (goods, property, etc.) regardless of profit.
Death is the destruction of the human body. Jesus was fully God but he was also fully human. It was more than just a few hours of discomfort. On the cross he sacrificed/surrendered his humanity. (Isaiah 52:14).
Jesus came to fufill the Law, meaning he came to offer the perfect/unblemished sacrifice in atonement for sin. (Hebrews 10:10)
On the cross, Jesus offered/surrendered his life to the Father in propiation for our sins and the Father gave it back to him three days later. Jesus really died on the cross. But Jesus didn't raise himself from the dead, the Father did. (Acts 2:24)
He also sacrificed his blood on the cross to seal the New Covenant. (Hebrews 9:15-28)
I Hope this helps you.It's only a few of the many layers of explanation of what happened in Jerusalem 2000 years ago.
bizybee316
New Member
KtyKaty, thank you very much for clearing that up for me.
CoilyFields
Well-Known Member
Re: What did Jesus sacrifice?
In the begining God declared that the wages of sin would be death.
So when man sinned it doomed us to die...eventually. But it also caused us to die a spiritual death (present and eternal seperation from God). To combat the spiritual death and re-establish a right relationship with God...something had to die (cause God doesnt lie).
Animals were sacrificed (valuable, unblemished etc) or sometimes other things if the people were poor and didnt have animals. The ritual outlined (by moses from God) in the old testament was that the sin was transferred from the person to the animal and the animal suffered the consequences of that persons sins...death. An atonement.
So when Jesus died, he was the ultimate sacrifice. taking on our sins, atoning for the wrong that we had done. Dying in our place. He WAS the sacrifice.
Remember as stated above, he was fully God but also fully man and he did not call upon his divinity in these occasions. When he felt the pain...it was the same pain we would feel. He didn't take a divine anesthetic lol. But even more than this...he suffered the seperation from the father that he had never experienced due to the weight of our sins. That may sound trivial, but think about going from total holiness to totally filthy with sin.
He died. And then he conquered death (satans "victory") by rising up again to new life (God's gift and true victory).
In the begining God declared that the wages of sin would be death.
So when man sinned it doomed us to die...eventually. But it also caused us to die a spiritual death (present and eternal seperation from God). To combat the spiritual death and re-establish a right relationship with God...something had to die (cause God doesnt lie).
Animals were sacrificed (valuable, unblemished etc) or sometimes other things if the people were poor and didnt have animals. The ritual outlined (by moses from God) in the old testament was that the sin was transferred from the person to the animal and the animal suffered the consequences of that persons sins...death. An atonement.
So when Jesus died, he was the ultimate sacrifice. taking on our sins, atoning for the wrong that we had done. Dying in our place. He WAS the sacrifice.
Remember as stated above, he was fully God but also fully man and he did not call upon his divinity in these occasions. When he felt the pain...it was the same pain we would feel. He didn't take a divine anesthetic lol. But even more than this...he suffered the seperation from the father that he had never experienced due to the weight of our sins. That may sound trivial, but think about going from total holiness to totally filthy with sin.
He died. And then he conquered death (satans "victory") by rising up again to new life (God's gift and true victory).
Guitarhero
New Member
IMHO...how can G-d take on sin if He cannot co-exist with it? That is the separation, the judgment and condemnation of us. However, the sprinkling of the blood sacrifice is the propitiation for those sins committed and allowing the person access to G-d, covering and washing them out. He physically took on all the sins ever committed and all the sins that are ever going to be committed, along with suffering and death upon His separate "holy" body. If we consider the separate, set aside and holy nature of G-d, then we will see that His sacrifice of doing such was indeed great and quite impossible for anyone else to accomplish. I'll have to come back to this later.
CoilyFields
Well-Known Member
To the bolded: We do this all of the time. Whenever we sin (unless we didnt know it was a sin). So how often do we have to "renew" our salvation? If I commit a "little sin" then I still got my salvation but if I commit a "big sin" or do a particular sin over and over then its gone? Who makes the determination?
Thats living in fear. Fear that if I die before I repent for a particular sin then I am going to hell because I lost my salvation and didnt get it back again in time.
God doesnt tie us to Him in fear. We are bound by love. He loves us because of His OWN goodness, not ours. As I quoted before, even our righteousness is as filthy rages! Thats why he says He is married to the backslider...and we know God doesn't believe in divorce.
When we say that we can do enough bad to lose our salvation...we are saying that the power of the gift rests with us. But the Bible says we are saved by grace so no one could boast (boast that they were good enough to earn their salvation, and conversely that someone else was too bad to deserve it).
This also poses a problem for sinners coming to accept Jesus Christ. They may believe that they have to "get themselves together" before coming to God. But the truth is they can NOT do the work of the Holy Ghost (the power source of a changed heart) nor can they ever be fixed up enough to earn salvation.
To the Italisized:
This reminds me of Philippians 2:12 where it talks about working our your own salvation. This doesnt mean accepting salvation more than once. But working the magnitude of the gift out....its like becoming a millionaire
ETA: Sorry my last sentance was cut off! lol. I meant to say its like becoming a millionaire. Somone has paid off your past present and future debts while giving you a constant influx of cash. Now how you use it is up to you. They give you a manual on how to get the most out of the money but if you choose bits and pieces, or think you have a better plan for managing it its not going to reach its full potential (and you will have consequences) but you are sitll a millionaire!
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ktykaty
Well-Known Member
There seems to be a misunderstanding here. I wasn't talking about ordinary sins, no matter how horrible. I'm talking about more radical choices.
We are saved by the grace of God through our faith in Jesus. If you do not believe in Jesus, you are not saved because He is the narrow door, the way, the truth and the life. Believed it or not, there are people who chose in full knowledge to stop believing that Jesus died in propiation for our sins and resurrected. They turn away from the faith.
I agree that salvation is a gift that no one deserve. For salvation to be a gift and not something God impose in our life, there is the need for options. Option to accept or reject the gift. Option to keep it or give it back. We worship a loving, just, mercyfull God. He doesn't force us to accept nor keep any of his gifts because He love us. God want us to love him back, so He allows us the possibility to reject Him at any moment. Since He loves us, He gives us the possibility to accept him at any moment.
Pertaining to salvation the only "power" we have is to say yes or no. We have that power not because of anything that we do but because it is freely given by God. In this unequally yoked marriage, the most powerfull one (God) is leaving the door constantly open for the weaker one (us) to escape, in order to ensure that we stay with Him because we love Him and not because we fear Him.
I hope that's clearer.
CoilyFields
Well-Known Member
Yes Ma'am that is much clearer, thank you.
The only part I disagree with is us having accepted Christ...then the possibility of rejecting. I dont believe that when you TRULY have accepted Him that you CAN reject him later. ( and not because he wont let us per se)
Judas comes to mind. Though he gave the appearance of accepting Jesus as the Holy Son of God, his actions proved that he truly never really believed. He was never actually saved. John 6:70, 1john 2:19 (He even went out and preached the gospel etc. but in his heart...he didnt have "saving faith")
So I guess my point is if you can accept God...then reject him...did you ever really accept him in the first place? I'd say no. I believe that those are the ones who will say they prophesied etc. in his name at judgement but he will reject them because he never knew them. (But this fakeness can only be known by that person and God...meaning we can't judge weather a person is saved or not).
Disclaimer: there is a difference in a saved person who is backslidden or overtakenin a fault and someone who was never actually saved in the first place though they gave the appearance of being saved.
1Cor. 13 : 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
1Jn. 3 : 2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. 3 All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure.
http://www.christadelphia.org/pamphlet/afterdth.htm
After Death - What?...
The Vital Question
How do we settle this question about what happens after death? Where do we go for a thoroughly reliable and truthful answer?
Do we trust to our own feelings or "intuition"? How do we know we are right? How could we expect anyone else to accept our view on our own authority? How can any man or woman anywhere tell us the answer? How do they know, anyway? Do we accept the views of religious leaders, either of individuals or of Councils or Synods? How do they know? And what are we to think when prominent religious leaders are seen to be divided among themselves on important issues? One prominent bishop has declared that Christ did not literally rise from the dead; others declare the Resurrection to be one of the foundations of the Christian faith. Who are we to believe-and why?
......
http://www.truthontheweb.org/heaven.htm
What does the Bible say about heaven??
Most people if they were asked this question would say that heaven is the place "up there somewhere", the place that "the people who are saved by Jesus will go and spend eternity." Is this true? That is what so many people, religious people, believe.... so it is hard for many to imagine it being anything else.
What happens when we die? Some think that you become an "angel". What does the bible say? Is heaven a place where we will sit around on clouds all day and play harps? Is this "doctrine" biblically sound?
Have you ever proved , from the pages of your own bible, that people go to heaven when they die? Let us guide you through some scriptures that may help you be assured of what happens to a person when they die, what is heaven, and where the Kingdom of God is going to be set up.
IS MAN IMMORTAL?
Genesis 2:7 "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and man became a living soul." Notice that man BECAME a living soul.....not HAD a living soul. The Hebrew word translated by the King James Version translators as "soul" is NEPHESH. Strong's Exhaustive Concordance #5315 defines this word as " a breathing creature". It goes on to include "any beast, body, breath, creature" as also being called a "nephesh" -besides just man.
......
http://www.truthontheweb.org/elijah.htm
Did they enter into Heaven?
[FONT="]There are many people, even some Theologians, who believe emphatically that Elijah was taken to God's throne in Heaven. It is believed that the biblical examples of Enoch and Elijah show that we will also be in Heaven with God after we die. Well, What about Elijah? Or Enoch? Weren't they taken to heaven? Well, let us find out about these two men of God and of their "translation". Let us begin with Elijah and also let us rely on the scriptures to give us the "big picture" of what really happened with him. We need to gather a little information before we go to II Kings to "witness" the "translation" of this servant of God.
[/FONT]
blazingthru
Well-Known Member
Soul and the body is the somewhat the same thing. So when you fall asleep in death, your soul/your body is asleep. Your soul cannot exist without the breath of life and the body, it ceases to exist.
The breath that is in your body is what makes you move and speak, it is just that breath. It does not know anything it is the "spark" that moves you. It is air.
Genesis 2:7 (King James Version)
7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Job 27:3 (King James Version)
3All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;
Your breath of life goes to God when death occurs.
As for the Judgment Day, which is at the end of the age and its twofold. The dead in Christ have already been judged, they are sleep and will arise When Jesus appears to awaken them. The rest of the dead (those who are lost) will remain asleep for 1,000.00 years, after Jesus comes. When you die you are asleep you know nothing your not in a waiting room or watching your love ones you are asleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 (King James Version)
13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.( we have hope that we will see our love ones again)
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Revelation 20 (King James Version)
4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8And shall go out to deceive the nations ( the lost all of the lost that have ever been in the earth, they will be awaken) which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Guitarhero
New Member
Most protestants do not have a concept of venial versus mortal sins and the translations are often lost in between the two groups of christians. Also, CCC 845- doesn't teach that people will die for lack of believing in Christ. If that means rejecting Him outright? I'm sure...but not knowing Him? That's a different story and G-d's mercy covers that.
ktykaty
Well-Known Member
What I wrote wasn't aimed at those who through no fault of their own do not know Christ. Those too may be saved by the grace of God.
makeupgirl
Well-Known Member
Why do some people believe the "name it and claim it" thingie (i'm not sure if it's a doctrine or not)? I'm asking because there is a verse in James that says that "we shouldn't ask amiss" (correct me if I'm wrong sisters)
Is it like a believing by faith type of thing? or do some just believe if they claim what they want that it's automatically going to come to pass?
Is it like a believing by faith type of thing? or do some just believe if they claim what they want that it's automatically going to come to pass?
Rainbow Dash
Well-Known Member
Yea, I've heard of that blab it and grab it doctrine. People going to car dealerships and laying hands on a BMW when you don't have BMW money. I believe this comes from the false doctrine that God wants everyone to be rich, so we should ask for the millions, etc. If you want that BMW then get a job that can pay for it.
I believe we should walk by faith and ask our Father for good things. There is a scripture that tells us our Father wants to give us good things but He is not a santa claus. Just coz we believe by faith, does not mean it is in the will of God for our lives. We should be seeking His kingdom and His righteousness, the rest will fall in place.
Guitarhero
New Member
I have a particular situation since our family is truly mixed (culturally). There's a lot of defections right and left about belief systems. I don't have a problem with it, truly, until someone knocks on my door and attempts to tell me what I should believe and do.
But I'll tell you I've got cousins who are traditionals. Some folks believe that our people only came to believe in G-d with the whites...not true. But there are those who hold traditional religion. They are open to others but that goes sour when I have people I love getting baptised every single Sunday or time they decide to go to somebody's church. It's not necessary and I think it's wrong to confuse folks like that. The people at those churches are confusing them on baptism's purpose. You only need one valid one. I agree that G-d doesn't tie us in fear but certainly respect. The difference between sins that break the relationship with Him are those of mortal (full conscience when committed, fully grave matter) and venial (those committed, not of a grave nature). When mortal sins are committed, the grace has been broken and in order to restore it, one must confess. We should likewise confess our venial sins but the latter do not break off the salvific relationship to G-d, but they do damage it as all sins do. I just wish I knew what to do to help my family...not to convert or sway them in any way, just to help them see that what they are doing is not freedom.
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