protein questions - calling all hair scientists

[newflowers]

I have a question about using proteins and how they work and am hoping someone can help or lead to assistance.

I now understand that protein treatments and conditioners can make the hair stronger by coating the hair therefore preventing breakage. I have also read that many woman add silk amino acids to their relaxer and conditioners - this seems like such a good idea. Many products contain various types of proteins and moisturizers. I have been attemtping a little research while I am still C&Ging. I want to understand how this works for DIY and pre-made (store bought) conditioners.

I understand that the molecular weight of protein must be very low to penetrate (thus repairing and strengthening) the hair shaft from the inside. Proteins of higher molecular weight will coat (thus strengthening) the hair shaft on the outside.

If a protein conditioner has both high and low molecular weight proteins in the same blend, will the larger molecules coat thereby preventing the the smaller ones from penetrating?

When you use a protein conditioner/treatment that says it will repair hair "from the inside" I presume this must be a lower molecular weight of protein. However, many of these conditioners and treatments also contain ingredients that also coat the hair as well. Does not later process prevent the former?

I am trying to understand how this process works. From what I've read so far, it seems to me that one would need two protein treatments - one that will penetrate the hair shaft and one that will coat the hair shaft - and these products would have to used one after the other if the process of using protein for hair is to be effective.

This makes sense to me - two treatments that seve two purposes, yet most protein treatments/conditioners contain both at the same time. When one uses heavy protein treatments like ApHogee, that is protein that coats the hair and requires super moisturizing/hydrating after the process. Conditioners that contain silk, keratin, wheat, collagen, etc. - some prenetrate and some coat; therefore, the super moisturizing/hydrating conditioner is still necessary. Is this because the the hair is penetrated and coated and one procress does not prevent the other?erplexed

Please clarify (pun intended) this issue for me.

 

[HoneyDew]

Girl, I am not going to even TRY to answer your questions because I would not know what the heck I am talking about.

All, I know is how protein works for me. Silk protein, for example, does not seem to do anything for my hair but sit there. I just am not that in to it. Maybe for styling purposes, but that's it.

Using Collagen and Keratin protein, along with the strengthening benefits like you mentioned, also make my hair take moisture better - yes better.

I never have overly dry hair after protein treatments and the followup moisturizing condition. But, if I stop my protein treatments, my hair starts reacting to moisture differently over time - not absorbing it. It is as if the protein preps my hair for moisture, I guess that is that whole porosity thing we all talk about sometimes. Otherwise, it just sits there, I guess on top of all the cones, and other products I would have also been piling on at the same time.

But, I think this is all a result of the fact that my hair is relaxed and technically "damaged", as relaxers/heat/etc essentially do anyway - even though I feel that my hair is healthy.

I hope some of the hair experts can come in and give some info for you. I honestly can comment on my own personal experiences.

 

[newflowers]

Thanks for giving me your experience. It makes sense to me that relaxed hair, even though well-cared for, is still technically damaged hair, so the proteins and mositurizers, etc. are required.

Protein was my nemesis in times past, and I want to correct that. I now understand why and when and what I must do to use a combination of protein and moisturizing treatments, I just would like to understand how they work.

 

[HoneyDew]

Thanks for giving me your experience. It makes sense to me that relaxed hair, even though well-cared for, is still technically damaged hair, so the proteins and mositurizers, etc. are required.

Protein was my nemesis in times past, and I want to correct that. I now understand why and when and what I must do to use a combination of protein and moisturizing treatments, I just would like to understand how they work.

I remember seeing some diagrams and charts online about this. I will try to find them and post it here...

 

[newflowers]

If you can find the charts, that would be so great.

I really appriciate your help.

 

[AKA-Tude]

I'll give you my experiences as well.

My hair seems to really love silk protiens. So I'm stuck on Chi Silk Infusion, reg silk amino acids (for pre-relaxing), and my Shiseido silk poo & con.

My hair also loves hemp proteins. So I also use Naturelle Hemp Con.

I don't do deep cons (lazy) but the hairs seem to be doing well.

Now, the smaller the molecule the better it penetrates is correct, but how you go about finding out whats 'smaller' vs. 'larger', I can't expound on.

Hopefully Navs or one of the other very knowledgable members will jump in here.

HTH

 

[spoogeywoogey]

I really wish I had the time to find the answers to your questions. I've been too busy studying for my final exams in May and June. Was taking a breather and noticed this thread.
Off the top of my head, I think there aren't really any protein preparations for both skin and hair that can actually penetrate them. So much for those collagen beauty ads. Anyhow, I digress. Of course, the smaller the protein, the more likely they can go deeper into the hair, especially when the hair is swollen from heat. Cosmetic companies are getting better nowadays, especially with the development of nanotechnology. Those molecules are so small that they'll definitely penetrate the hair shaft right down to the cortex and probably do something at a molecular level.
Right now most protein preparations just coat and fill in any "cracks" so to speak. Companies claim that vegetable protein penetrates better than animal protein. But the best way to find out is to check what actual scientific literature say. And I haven't looked at a cosmetic science journal or dermatological journal in forever. If it's possible, you could try an at home experiment: silk vs. collagen vs. Quinoa or some other vegetable protein. That's all I can come up with right now. Hope that was helpful.

 

[newflowers]

Thank you ladies - your expereinces and advice is indeed helpful. I think that it should not matter - a pretein will help make hair stronger and I should be happy with that. Do note I said should.

Thanks bunches, I will keep looking and researching to see what I find out.

 

[HoneyDew]

I am glad you bumped this. I was looking for it.

Here is that site: http://www.pg.com/science/haircare/hair_twh_132.htm

I am not sure if that is the exact picture I was looking for, but I thought sure I saw info in the online book about this very subject.

I have looked through this online reference MANY times and the images of the damamaged strands still make me cringe:
http://www.pg.com/science/haircare/hair_twh_69.htm

Like this one:

 

[newflowers]

WOW!!! This is excellent information - thank you so very much.

 

[spoogeywoogey]

You're welcome. Glad to be of help.

Check out the Brazilian Keratin Thread. That Tanagra product is exactly what I was talking about with respect to nanotechnology. Sounds very promising. You could try finding a salon near you that offers the service or something similar.

 

[shunta]

These sound like questions that Navs would be able to answer.

 

[newflowers]

I was hoping Navs would stop by to drop a few scientific words of wisdom.

I have been devouring every bit of information about the Brazilian Keratin thread. It seems to be kind of what I was getting at. Protein must be of a small enough molecular weight to actually penetrate and thus strengthen the hair shaft. After that, the protein that is too large to penetrate coats the exterior of the hair shaft.

At least, that is the way I understand the Brazilian Keratin so far.

 

[ravenmerlita]

I'm not a hair scientist, but I'd love to know the answers to those questions.

There is a short Tanagra flash movie at this site that shows a magnified picture of a hair, then the protein filling it in, then it being sealed in. Scroll down, its on the right under "How tanagra works":

http://www.colournation.com/modules/wfsection/article.php?articleid=59

I've used a product by Milbon called Crede's that is supposed to have keratin and other type proteins. Anyway they sell (to professionals only) protein in three different molecular weights:

http://www.milbon-usa.com/home.cfm?milbon=ppnoiraudepro

They also have a salon treatment that is supposed to restore the hair in four steps, first building the inside then creating a barrier on the outside:

http://www.milbon-usa.com/home.cfm?milbon=ppsalon_treatment

 

[newflowers]

Very interesting indeed. I wonder what it takes to purchase the products. If a licensed stylist can just purchase them or if they must undergo specific training. I have some access to a licensed stylist who would buy it for, but I doubt she would be willing to do the extra work.

hmmmm....

Thanks bunches.

 

[morehairplease]

These sound like questions that Navs would be able to answer.

co-signing Navs could definately answer this for you.

 

[preciousjewel76]

co-signing Navs could definately answer this for you.

I haven't seen her post lately...maybe she's busy with school or work.

 

[gn1g]

Hoping for Nav.