Pope Benedict XVI Resigning!

[Belle Du Jour]

Peter alone was not given the keys to the kingdom, all the disciples were. This is a lie from the pits of hell to give one man sole authority to make decisions.

Please quote the scripture where Christ tells all His disciples that they have the authority that He gave directly to Peter. Thanks. A closer reading of the New Testament will show that the apostles recognized Peter as "first among equals."

 

[Belle Du Jour]

Yes it is, because it was created in the 16th Century by the Protestants, mainly, a man named Martin Luther. Not only is it ironically "man-made," but it is also un-Biblically sound.

The Word is complete, but it is not the sole source of authoritative teaching and doctrine--the Apostles' left us their oral teachings and examples as well.

Wrong. This is why I doubt you've read your history, even Protestant history. Find anywhere in Christian history or Christian theology prior to the 1500s where this is true.

Again, you speak ignorance. Scripture is indeed God's Word and infallible, but the Scriptures do not say or teach sola scriptura. In fact, the Apostle's themselves in the Bible tells us to hold to their traditions, whether they be written, by word of mouth, or example. The Apostles gave us both Scripture and Apostolic Tradition.

Non-denominational is still, ironically, a denomination.

Who are you to say that the Calvinist is wrong and interpreting with a carnal mind versus your interpretation? How do you know? This is the problem with the circular argument of sola scriptura and private interpretation.

Actually, they are very logical and I even provided solid examples of why sola scriptura doesn't work. You just choose to ignore them and throw out Scripture verses. There is a problem with saying that the Bible is the sole rule of faith, the sole interpreter of faith, when Christians bring two conflicting interpretations (both "led by the Spirit")--which one is right?
Is the Calvinist right about free will or the Methodist?
Are the Quakers right about baptism or the Evangelical?
Are those who identify Jesus Christ as Michael the Archangel right, or those who believe Christ is the Second Person of the Trinity and full God right?
You say they are interpreting with carnal minds, they will tell YOU the same thing. Being non-denominational doesn't mean you're any more in-tuned with correct Bible understanding or interpretation. Non-denominational Protestantism is still Protestantism with Protestant roots.

Sound Scriptural doctrine? Wow, with 40,000 different ideas of "sound scriptural doctrine," you're going to have to narrow it down and tell me which one it is.

Galadriel, you always speak truth and wisdom. So much knowledge in this post for those who want to hear.

 

[Belle Du Jour]

As Cardinal Newman said, "To be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant." When you truly seek out the history and truth of Christianity, there is NO going back. There is no alternative.

 

[MrsHaseeb]

Please quote the scripture where Christ tells all His disciples that they have the authority that He gave directly to Peter. Thanks. A closer reading of the New Testament will show that the apostles recognized Peter as "first among equals."

Matthew 18

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[MrsHaseeb]

I realize that people think I'm self righteous, that I refuse to see past my own perspective, that I'm overall just a mean person. I do get heated and very passionate where certain topics are concerned but its not with the intent to be mean. That said, everything I stated stands but I will cease to respond in this thread. Blessed day ladies.

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[BostonMaria]

Matthew 18

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Matthew 18:15-20

Please see the bolded below


15 “If your brother or sister[b] sins,[c] go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’[d] 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
18 “Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be[e] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[f] loosed in heaven.
19 “Again, truly I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything they ask for, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.”

I was spiritually set free the day I found out I had the authority to bind and loose. I am so happy that these gifts were given to all of us, not just a select few.

------------

Oh and ladies please try to be courteous to one another.

 

[MrsHaseeb]

I was spiritually set free the day I found out I had the authority to bind and loose. I am so happy that these gifts were given to all of us, not just a select few.

------------------------------------

Oh and ladies please try to be courteous to one another.

This is the point I was trying to make. Binding and loosing is the spiritual authority given to the body of Christ, the Church, which includes all believers and not only Peter

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[Belle Du Jour]

Matt 16:
13 Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, He was asking His disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?”
14 And they said, “Some say John the Baptist; and others, Elijah; but still others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets.”
15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”
16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
17 And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
18“I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.
19“I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth
shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.”
20Then He warned the disciples that they should tell no one that He was the Christ.

John 21
15 So when they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love Me more than these?” He said to Him, “Yes, Lord; You know that I love You.” He said to him, “Tend My lambs.”
16 He said to him again a second time, “Simon, son of John, do you love Me?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; You know that I love You.” He said to him, “Shepherd My sheep.”
17 He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love Me?” Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, “Do you love Me?” And he said to Him, “Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You.” Jesus said to him, “Tend My sheep."

The Word of Christ.

 

[LucieLoo12]

Line upon Line, precept upon precept. We must line the word of God up. The bible does not contradict itself. That's where people can error in the word because they take one or two scriptures and build a complete doctrinal system around it and completely ignore the other scriptures.....

 

[Galadriel]

I realize that people think I'm self righteous, that I refuse to see past my own perspective, that I'm overall just a mean person. I do get heated and very passionate where certain topics are concerned but its not with the intent to be mean. That said, everything I stated stands but I will cease to respond in this thread. Blessed day ladies.

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I don't think you're self-righteous, but I do think that you've made a misstep by claiming you have read/studied Catholicism, and then proceed to bash it using the most common stereotypes and ignorant remarks.

It's one thing to state your views, it's one thing to even engage in theological debate or discussion--but all you've provided were suggestions that the pope is the anti-Christ and that Catholics commit idolatry, etc.

I have little patience when people take such an approach. There are several Protestants that disagree with my beliefs here in the forum, and they will honestly state so, and we have had very respectful exchanges. However, what they will not do is parrot ignorant remarks and claim that they know and study Catholicism.

 

[Galadriel]

Line upon Line, precept upon precept. We must line the word of God up. The bible does not contradict itself. That's where people can error in the word because they take one or two scriptures and build a complete doctrinal system around it and completely ignore the other scriptures.....

Lucie, I agree that Scripture does not contradict itself but when two Christians interpret X passage in a contradictory manner, and BOTH claim to be led by the Holy Spirit, and BOTH are claiming to use Scripture to interpret Scripture--then objectively, who is right?

You can't go to any outside source, because you've just argued or established for yourself that Scripture is the *only* source to interpret itself.

So the Calvinist, Methodist, Anglican, Seventh Day Adventist, etc. who all believe in sola scriptura, yet all have several contradictory doctrines, are constantly locked in a circular argument from which they cannot escape.

It's basically:

"This passage means A because look at this other passage, and I'm using the Word of God and nothing else!"

"No, this passage means B because look at this other passage, and I'm using the word of God and nothing else!"

"You're taking it out of context, though."

"No, YOU'RE taking it out of context."

"But I'm using Scripture alone to come to my conclusion that this passage means A."

"But I'm using Scripture alone to come to my conclusion that this passage means B."

"Well, I'm listening to the guidance of the Holy Spirit...."

"No you're not, the Holy Spirit is guiding ME."

And so on and so forth...

 

[Rsgal]

Lucie, I agree that Scripture does not contradict itself but when two Christians interpret X passage in a contradictory manner, and BOTH claim to be led by the Holy Spirit, and BOTH are claiming to use Scripture to interpret Scripture--then objectively, who is right?

You can't go to any outside source, because you've just argued or established for yourself that Scripture is the *only* source to interpret itself.

So the Calvinist, Methodist, Anglican, Seventh Day Adventist, etc. who all believe in sola scriptura, yet all have several contradictory doctrines, are constantly locked in a circular argument from which they cannot escape.

It's basically:

"This passage means A because look at this other passage, and I'm using the Word of God and nothing else!"

"No, this passage means B because look at this other passage, and I'm using the word of God and nothing else!"

"You're taking it out of context, though."

"No, YOU'RE taking it out of context."

"But I'm using Scripture alone to come to my conclusion that this passage means A."

"But I'm using Scripture alone to come to my conclusion that this passage means B."

"Well, I'm listening to the guidance of the Holy Spirit...."

"No you're not, the Holy Spirit is guiding ME."

And so on and so forth...

Been avoiding posting in this thread like the plague, but i had to say:

Thank You Galadriel

This is the reason, according to the Center for the Study of Global Christianity (CSGC) at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, there are approximately 41,000 christian denominations and organizations in the world.

Each claiming to be the right and only true church.

 

[LivingInPeace]

Reading the posts and feeling the hostility in them, I'm reminded of a line in one of Woody Allen's movies, "If Christ came back down to earth and saw what was being done in his name he would never stop vomiting."

 

[Belle Du Jour]

Cardinal Arinze's reaction to the pope's resignation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06UP2qHCxWg&feature=youtu.be

"Some people may be so shaken that it may change their perception but my hope and prayer is it will help many to get more mature in our faith. Our faith is not on the pope it's on Christ who is the foundation of the church. Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever. We all are servants. We come and go. Christ doesn't come and go. . .without Christ the church has no more meaning. The pope is a servant. . ."

Thank you Arinze for speaking widsom.

 

[LucieLoo12]

Been avoiding posting in this thread like the plague, but i had to say:

Thank You @Galadriel

This is the reason, according to the Center for the Study of Global Christianity (CSGC) at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, there are approximately 41,000 christian denominations and organizations in the world.

Each claiming to be the right and only true church.

This truly broke my heart when I read this. What happen to one faith, one hope, one Lord, one way?...(rhetorical question)....

 

[Galadriel]

Reading the posts and feeling the hostility in them, I'm reminded of a line in one of Woody Allen's movies, "If Christ came back down to earth and saw what was being done in his name he would never stop vomiting."

It's not so much as doing this or that in Christ's name, but rather having to deal with ignorance and prejudice against a particular church (Catholicism), which can come from a Protestant, but also ignorant comments can come from an an atheist, or whoever else. I have been in threads in OT where there was not only hostility, but blatant blasphemy against God and Christianity on the part of those who do not profess Christianity (or who practice a secularized watered down version of it).

 

[Poohbear]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fogB6nJzEQ0&sns=em




This is a good summary of certain aspects of this Pope's resignation. It's not simply that he was an old Pope but that his place in history was written about. In other words, the significance of his short papacy is pretty interesting to say the least.

This also explained some things to me that I hadn't heard before or considered I guess. Also the reason why the Catholic Church is looked down upon by other denominations


Eta. It's also excellent in the aspect of describing the importance of JP the second and how much influence he had in the world. At least IMHO

I watched the video. Revelation 17 is an interesting chapter.

 

[Nice & Wavy]

I see my thread is all off course, so I'm asking that it be closed.



ETA: The word 'ignorance' is being thrown around as if its gospel. Why can't people have a discussion without saying that what people share is ignorant?

Surely, we can do better than this.

You can clearly see the division in the Christianity Forum and it makes me get on my knees. This makes me sad...so sad indeed.

 

[pebbles]

Thank-you, ladies. Thread closed.