Natural vs Relaxed...who's wrong...who's right?

[Poohbear]

So theres nothing wrong with "chemical fire cream?"

sorry i read this term recently and found it hillarious, carry on. I joke, I joke!

lol, that's the filter for relaxer on Nappturality.

 

[Afrikaisi]

My answers are below in red. While I do feel there is no right or wrong per se with being relaxed or natural, I do feel that a relaxer is a product that is highly dangerous and has the potential to cause long term side effects that we haven't even thought/heard of, the fact that one straightens their hair is their business, IMO.

Now that I'm on my Hair Care Journey.. I'm starting to pay more attention to Black hair. And in doing so my mom has noticed as well as my friends that we as black society really don't talk about our hair as in regimens, care tips, products, length...none of that...u know. So we ended up discussing the two major black hair types.....(natural hair or relaxed hair).

What I'm asking you is...
Why do you think that being natural is the best way to go? I think that natural hair is the best way to go for obvious reason, less processed chemicals that enters your body the better. (Please believe that the relaxer can go through the pores in your scalp and also cause scalp damage. I mean think about it, the person applying your relaxer has to wear gloves, hello, hint #1, that it may not be good to put on the skin that covers your skull and brain!
OR
Why do you think that being relaxed is the best way to go?

If you are a relaxed sista do you feel that you are betraying your own race by changing your hair texture to best suit main society or the workforce?
OR
If you are a natural sista do you feel that you are making a statement to society with your hair saying that others should embrace who YOU ARE and not your hair? I do feel that I am making a statement to society when I wear my hair in its natural state, I am saying I am not following the masses, I am going to be free to be me and not care what ANYONE, black or white has to say about my hair. I do beleive that I am not my hair, but let's be totally honest. A person of African descent has kinky hair, that is kind of our thing, so does kinky hair define me as a black woman, no, its not the only thing that defines me, but it is one of the things that The Father has distinctly given me, and for a reason. So more or less I guess since my hair is a part of me, then it may define me, on a certain level.

There's nothing wrong with being neutral or simply expressing your opinion just keep it to an overall positive because when I discussed this topic with others.....um... well ....(let's just say there was alot of passion in the room) In closing, I understand why some naturals can be very passionate about their hair. I know alot of people are saying its just hair, but if it was then our comunity and the white community would not make such a big ruckus over it. Its not just hair, its really is a part of who we are, I mean The Father specifically made our hair this way so to me there is a divine reason for it. But I am not telling relaxer wearers that they are not behaving black, because they want straight hair. We do have a jacked up sense of beauty though. I mean had we never come to the States or the Whites never came to Africa, I doubt that any of us would be having this conversation right now, we would be enjoying our hair the way The Father intended. I do believe relaxers in themselves are bad, only because they are dangerous to the scalp and possible other areas of the health that are unknown. I know that there are a million things in the environment that can potentially kill us, but this is something we subject on ourselves that to me doesn't add up in the benefit department.

Also I have a video I would like you to check out!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsR-2t5TexM

THANKS

 

[aloof one]

Man yall know I had to bring my behind in here.

I just got the dirtiest look from my mom when I expressed that I was done relaxing my hair. She had said something about how her hair broke off after not perming for 6 weeks and rolled her eyes when I said my hair was coily on the top and nappy in the back. She thinks that anything that isn't my neices kind of hair (she has white in her, and her hair is curly and big and wavy, etc) should remain relaxed end of story. Even if it results in alopecia and scarring for decades...

Anyway, I think its awful that some, and perhaps most(some, so don't even take it personal and write some crap back about how you don't) black women can walk around with their noses in the air when someone has "nappy" hair or unrelaxed hair and isn't mixed or have a loose curly texture or something. Tired of b!tches tearing combs through their hair or shaking their head extra hard when they see me in braids or an airdried pony like somehow being natural is a contagious disease. They act like we give them a bad name. I just want to shout at people sometimes... EVERYBODY KNOW YOUR HAIR DON"T COME OUT OF YOUR HEAD LIKE THAT! YOU ARE A JOKE! THAT STUFF MUST HAVE GOTTEN TO YOUR BRAIN! IF YOU REALLY LOVED YOURSELF AS A BLACK WOMAN YOU WOULDN'T BE LOOKING DOWN AT ANOTHER BLACK WOMAN FOR HAVING NATURAL HAIR! Youre a hater for looking down on me for doing what you lack the courage to do. So stop trying to front like I'm the one who's living a lie! My mom can walk around with a sew in or a lace front with hardly any hair and talk about how she is done dealing with her hair and would rather just give up and wear weaves.... but when I tell her I am going natural suddenly Im the one with the problem? Grr... Venting aside:

I feel like although it is not everyones intention (once again don't even take it personal it is not about you), but it is upholding the idea that white is right by relaxing. (if youre mad now just keep reading before you PM me or get mad and make this another thread that I've gotten locked... ) By the fact that the majority of black women in this country are relaxed, and the fact that there is still a negative attitude toward dark skinned women in this country. You go to Africa most of them don't even do this, but all of a sudden, everhwehre there are white people, there are black people (some not all) relaxing their hair and bleaching their skin and getting their noses done and lips done and boobs done and everything else in between to mirror their image. Yall know I could go on, but Ill cut to the chase:

I am not going to stand here and say its all about everyone wanting to be white. Thats not what Im getting at. White people do the same things we all do. Tanning. When I think about tanning I think about perms. Has anyone else noticed that there is like a tanning salon on every corner? They're popping up in the suburbs like BSS's in the hood. White people realize that they want darker skin, and they start tanning real young and do it all their life.They take the risk for cancer, bad skin, etc because they want the results, just like we take all the risks to have straight hair. Its NO different. They didn't want to get tans until they met brown people, just like we didn't want straight hair until we met them.

That's my two cent for the moment, I need to go pay some bills and don't want to be here for the fallout until after I've had something to eat and some free time on my hands...

 

[LunadeMiel]

 

[aloof one]

Also, I do think being natural is better, but I would never look down on a relaxed head because I understand how most of them got there. I don't judge anybody, except for the aforementioned foo's.

I guess in my idea of a perfect world everyone would be able to make the decision to do either one as opposed to someone making it for them, and no one would feel the need to do something self destructive to adhere to beauty standards created by a completely different culture. Not that that is the only reason people relax, but that is it for some. And for those who feel that way, that is why I feel so bad about relaxers. In a perfect world, everyone who relaxed would really, truly do it for maintenance... but for many (and so many refuse to admit... ) its just to have straight hair because they hate their own texture.


Here I am typing too much again, I need to get my purse and go!

 

[aloof one]

girl you know it...

 

[SparklingFlame]

So theres nothing wrong with "chemical fire cream?"

sorry i read this term recently and found it hillarious, carry on. I joke, I joke!

Nope, nor is there anything wrong with the "flaming hot tool of torture"!

 

[Afrikaisi]

I agree with both of your posts, its like when a natural person says something against relaxers we are militant, ummm... that's how we were made, how am I being militant? But anyone can say something against my natural hair and no one bats an eye.(as if you don't have kinky nappy hair underneath that relaxer)

And as far as the "managebility garbage", I don't buy it, if we styled our hair the way nature intended, it wouldn't be "hard to manage". Instead we try to style it in a way as to not bring too much attention to the fact that we are Black. Yes I said it. I think we are afraid of the stigma and ridicule. So its easy to just believe the hype.

Sorry to come off "passionate"" or "militant" its just the truth. Its sad that some women actually believe the stuff that comes out of their mouths. I used to be one, so I am not intentionally hating on anyone else who does. I know that being natural or relaxed is a choice, but at what cost do you want the "manageability" you desire.

Also, I do think being natural is better, but I would never look down on a relaxed head because I understand how most of them got there. I don't judge anybody, except for the aforementioned foo's.

I guess in my idea of a perfect world everyone would be able to make the decision to do either one as opposed to someone making it for them, and no one would feel the need to do something self destructive to adhere to beauty standards created by a completely different culture. Not that that is the only reason people relax, but that is it for some. And for those who feel that way, that is why I feel so bad about relaxers. In a perfect world, everyone who relaxed would really, truly do it for maintenance... but for many (and so many refuse to admit... ) its just to have straight hair because they hate their own texture.


Here I am typing too much again, I need to get my purse and go!

 

[LynnieB]

Nobody is right or wrong. Can't change the world but you can do you (relaxed or natural) and, perhaps by "doing you" you will have a positive influence on those around you whether they're relaxed or natural.

the only time i start questioning the right's and wrong's of the entire relaxer deal is when someone is obviously having some sort of hair loss issue.

why continue to do this especially while the condition is in an active phase.
why continue slapping that stuff on your head and you haven't made phone call the first to a dermatologist or a doctor - but look to a messageboard to provide you with advice? Just why......

Live and let live. Be happy with yourself and your own choices and remember there is beauty in all things.

 

[DarkVictory]

...She thinks that anything that isn't my neices kind of hair (she has white in her, and her hair is curly and big and wavy, etc) should remain relaxed end of story. Even if it results in alopecia and scarring for decades...

Anyway, I think its awful that some, and perhaps most(some, so don't even take it personal and write some crap back about how you don't) black women can walk around with their noses in the air when someone has "nappy" hair or unrelaxed hair and isn't mixed or have a loose curly texture or something. Tired of b!tches tearing combs through their hair or shaking their head extra hard when they see me in braids or an airdried pony like somehow being natural is a contagious disease. They act like we give them a bad name.

I'm with you on this. Straight hair as the default, good choice and nappy as the bad thing that needs to be fixed - that's the attitude I object to.

It's what's IN the head, not ON the head, that's the problem. It makes no sense for one Black person to look down on or get after another about her hair, whether natural or relaxed.

I admit that about half the people I see with straight hair would probably look better (to my eyes) if they went natural. But since God didn't put them here for me to look at, they can do their hair however they want. And they probably feel the same about my wild woolies.

We have many absolutely beautiful relaxed ladies here on LHCF. And maybe the woman with the totally hacked-up weave is a great mother, wife, and sister. So while I prefer natural hair (and kind of wish everybody did), my main focus is on respect for each person.

 

[SparklingFlame]

...ts like when a natural person says something against relaxers we are militant, ummm... that's how we were made, how am I being militant? But anyone can say something against my natural hair and no one bats an eye.(as if you don't have kinky nappy hair underneath that relaxer)

I am one who is quite tuned off by militant nappies. When I say a militant nappy this is what I mean: one who feels that anyone who is not natural has mental problems along with self esteem issues and an identity crisis. I just dont think its that deep. Just because you are au natural does not mean that you are in love with yourself and you embrace everything about yourself. There seems to be an unspoken thing among the militant nappies that they have all this high self esteem but I beg to differ.


I can guarantee that every natural woman out there does not have 100% self esteem. She has something about herself that she does not like. THIS is my main issue with those type of nappies.


I also don't believe that relaxers are healthy but look at all the other things that we do to ourselves that are anti-health ie drinking, smoking, unhealthy eating habits, ect......We can't put it all on a relaxer.

Now on the other hand, I dont like it when relaxed people try to jump all down natural ladies throat with this holier than thou attitude either. Like someone else said they turn their nose up and say to us "How can you go around looking like that" when they cant even braid 3 strands of hair together. Please!

 

[Incredible1ne]

I would never look down on a relaxed head because I understand how most of them got there. I don't judge anybody, except for the aforementioned foo's.

I agree with this 100%. I even remember a poster on here saying they can't stand the look of nappy hair like kinky/nappy hair will jump off somebody's head and attack you I was sitting at my computer in shock. I'll never knock a relaxed person. How can I? I was relaxed myself for close to 15 years.

 

[TwistNMx]

Follow "your" heart.
You know what's best for you.

 

[*Muffin*]

No one's wrong and no one's right. It's all a matter of preference. You can have healthy, long hair whether it's relaxed or natural. And I notice that many people who have natural hair still straighten their hair with heat appliances and many people with relaxed hair do braid-outs to achieve curlier looks, so in the end we're all one and the same. It's all a personal choice.

 

[Nicole1976]

Neither person is right or wrong.

It is purely preference.

For me I texlax, because I am trying to have the best of both worlds!!!

 

[Mimi22]

For years I had to battle with questions and abuse regarding my natural hair. I used to be so depressed and angry with my hair. My mom + sister (both relaxed with WL and BSL respectively), supported me and never spewed any malice towards it. i never relaxed, i felt it was my choice, my right to wear my hair, to stay grounded, to stay happily the way i liked. When i finally applied a texturiser, I was so scared, I didnt understand why hair care was so different from being natural. But unduly so, it was...and my hair was completely damaged by summer 2005, one year after i bravely texturised. Back on my natural hair stance, I feel like this is my niche, my solitary stance against society. I dont need to add a relaxer to fit in or to be beautiful. It felt GOOD and it still does....
thats just my two pence.....

 

[Afrikaisi]

Not to be ugly, but I knew someone would come at me with something like this....see my commentts below...

I am one who is quite tuned off by militant nappies. When I say a militant nappy this is what I mean: one who feels that anyone who is not natural has mental problems along with self esteem issues and an identity crisis. Unfortuntely, I believe this to be the case for many- not all, but I am not downing anyone for it, because we will all eventually do our own thing anyway. I just dont think its that deep. IMHO it is that deep, b/c if you can't even love what you are made to be, then who can love you?Just because you are au natural does not mean that you are in love with yourself and you embrace everything about yourself. I do LOVE everything about myself, you know why, because this is what The Father created. He actually took the time out to craft every single piece of me. While there are some days I look in the mirror and think, man I don't like my, xyz today, I am soon telling myself what a precious gift I am to the world.There seems to be an unspoken thing among the militant nappies that they have all this high self esteem but I beg to differ.I am not really speaking for all the "militant" nappies as you call them. Nor do I profess to be one, I don't asssume the title. I can only speak for myself. I only wrote "militant" becasue to me it is funny how people are put off by a group of women who are trying to encourage other women to be natural or at least explore why they are not. Do they have extreme passion, yes, but sometimes that is what is needed in society.


I can guarantee that every natural woman out there does not have 100% self esteem. She has something about herself that she does not like. Yes, but learning to love each part of who you are is what life is all about, who can go around hating themselves forever, you have to eventually come to terms with who you are.THIS is my main issue with those type of nappies.


I also don't believe that relaxers are healthy but look at all the other things that we do to ourselves that are anti-health ie drinking, smoking, unhealthy eating habits, ect......We can't put it all on a relaxer.The post was about relaxers v. natural not cigarettes, so lets stay on topic. Hopefully getting a relaxer is not like an addiction.

Now on the other hand, I dont like it when relaxed people try to jump all down natural ladies throat with this holier than thou attitude either. Like someone else said they turn their nose up and say to us "How can you go around looking like that" when they cant even braid 3 strands of hair together. Please!

The question was what's wrong or right, and I think relaxers are dangerous chemicals that we subject to our scalp and potentially our bodies. And for what? Some standard of beauty. I am just saying you can get the straight effect from something else if its that important to you. My whole thing is I don't think many Black women realize how potentially harmful relaxers are. I mean people know smoking is bad for them, that's a no brainer, but I don't think we give it a second thought when it comes to relaxers.
[/quote]

 

[Crackers Phinn]

Why do you think that being natural is the best way to go?
Don't have to do no damn touch ups.

Why do you think that being relaxed is the best way to go?
Don't have to deal with knots...or at least I didn't when I was relaxed.

If you are a relaxed sista do you feel that you are betraying your own race by changing your hair texture to best suit main society or the workforce?
When I was relaxed, I never thought about it. I don't think I even knew anybody who didnt have a perm.

I will say this about the workforce. If you are established in a career, then sporting natural styles isn't that big a deal. If you are just starting out in a conservative field, with no bargaining chips, then rolling up to an interview with the angela davis fro going on may not be a good idea. It may not be fair, but life ain't fair.

If you are a natural sista do you feel that you are making a statement to society with your hair saying that others should embrace who YOU ARE and not your hair?
I do feel like I am making a statement. I wish every black woman I encountered was natural. Then there would be more natural hair salons and more products made for natural hair. That would be fantabulous.

 

[Crackers Phinn]

I am one who is quite tuned off by militant nappies. When I say a militant nappy this is what I mean: one who feels that anyone who is not natural has mental problems along with self esteem issues and an identity crisis.

GIRL! Especially when it's somebody who BC'd two minutes ago just preachin away like they didn't just get a touchup last month.

My bigger pet peeve is that nappy militancy always moves from anti perm to nappier than thou. Twistout = self hate, naw pish twistout = getting the most outta them twists it took 3 hrs to put in.

 

[Kurlee]

I don't think one is better than the other per se... but i do think natural hair is stronger than processed hair. However, better is really subjective. If you relax/texturize ur hair because:
a) u think ur natural hair is too hard too "nappy" (hate dat word)
b) u want to have "good hair"
c) u think u need it

then yea there is a problem with the way u perceive ur self and that needs to be worked out. If its jus because u want a change or jus for a style option then cool do you, but unfortunately some relax for reasons a, b or c and they don't want to admit it. I have encountered many of those IRL so its nothing new.
I'm natural right now becuase when I was relaxed I used to wash my hair the same day as a touch up. Why, u ask? I wanted my hair to puff back up. I used to wwear wash and go;s and curly styles all the time when it clicked that hey my hair does this naturally so why bother? That and a scissor happy stylist who took me from almost APL to a neck length bob when i asked for a "trim". With that said, I do get frustrated with my natural hair and maybe one day I will texlax. I don't see myself going straight; even when I blow out my hair I get bored with it in a day or two. As long as u accept urself and ur hair even if its 4XVIID then fry, dye and lay it to the side

 

[Chromia]

Natural and relaxed are both good choices. As long as you're happy with your hair it doesn't matter.

My hair is relaxed. I don't feel that I'm betraying my race. My mom took me to get my first relaxer when I was like 12 and I've been getting touchups sort of out of habit.

I plan on transitioning, but I don't feel that I'll be making any sort of statement. I'm just tired of the wait time in salons, I've seen a lot of natural styles lately and I like them, and thanks to the info. here and in fotki albums I have the info I need.

 

[aloof one]

Im so glad this thread didn't get locked while I was at the store

I'm glad no one is pullin claws out and taking earrings off. You know this is the only place we can really talk about these things anyway. Not like my mom or anyone else wants to hear it. Because as far as everyone around me, its "I need a perm every 3.5 weeks or I'll DIE." The only reason my neice is natural is because we had to beg and plead with my mom not to sneak perm into her hair. My mom knows perms made her bald, but she won't admit it, I just hope deep down she knows that perms will be the end of my niece's hair, which is at her little butt now and she's 6 yo.

I almost cry when I think of how foolish people can be here in this country... how they really, truly feel like you are doing something wrong by letting yourself be. Getting a relaxer isn't like bathing or getting a check up at the doctor, but for many black women, somehow if you don't perm your hair you are looked down upon... as if you don't shower regularly or see a doctor every year. They really, truly feel that it is a necessity to try to hide who you are every 6 to 8 weeks. They act like NG is some sort of rash that keeps coming back... like a herpes outbreak- you have to cover it up before anyone notices. So if you're natural and you never relax... well you're looked at like a leper. You never fixed the "problem" and you still don't fix it, so you're dirty.

Kinda OT: Anyone think men have this sort of issue? I know its a tragedy as well that black men are just as encouraged to hide their identity. (Shaving our sons' heads giving them fades, etc. from the time they are toddlers) Do you think all those black men with fades look down on those with dreads or TWAs or twists, etc? Or do you think men with dreads have issues with men with fades or bald? JW... I dont know about anyone else in here, but I think a man with long dread locs is sexy, especially in a pony...

 

[Kurlee]

Im so glad this thread didn't get locked while I was at the store

I'm glad no one is pullin claws out and taking earrings off. You know this is the only place we can really talk about these things anyway. Not like my mom or anyone else wants to hear it. Because as far as everyone around me, its "I need a perm every 3.5 weeks or I'll DIE." The only reason my neice is natural is because we had to beg and plead with my mom not to sneak perm into her hair. My mom knows perms made her bald, but she won't admit it, I just hope deep down she knows that perms will be the end of my niece's hair, which is at her little butt now and she's 6 yo.

I almost cry when I think of how foolish people can be here in this country... how they really, truly feel like you are doing something wrong by letting yourself be. Getting a relaxer isn't like bathing or getting a check up at the doctor, but for many black women, somehow if you don't perm your hair you are looked down upon... as if you don't shower regularly or see a doctor every year. They really, truly feel that it is a necessity to try to hide who you are every 6 to 8 weeks. They act like NG is some sort of rash that keeps coming back... like a herpes outbreak- you have to cover it up before anyone notices. So if you're natural and you never relax... well you're looked at like a leper. You never fixed the "problem" and you still don't fix it, so you're dirty.

Kinda OT: Anyone think men have this sort of issue? I know its a tragedy as well that black men are just as encouraged to hide their identity. (Shaving our sons' heads giving them fades, etc. from the time they are toddlers) Do you think all those black men with fades look down on those with dreads or TWAs or twists, etc? Or do you think men with dreads have issues with men with fades or bald? JW... I dont know about anyone else in here, but I think a man with long dread locs is sexy, especially in a pony...

OF COURSE MEN DO! Why do u think they walk around with those silly wave caps and brushes tryna get waves? They tryna get that good hurrrrrrr or at least look like it and the second their hair grows back they cut it right back down. We all have these issues but nobody wants to admit it. I'm not a dread fan, but i love a man with hair on his head, a curly fro a la ryan leslie, bryce wilson or i dunno how to describe it, jus hair on ur head. Not fake waves, dreads or braids or a one level, jus some type of hair going on. I saw a man in the hairdresser way back in the day getting a relaxer, I was LMAOOO as i was watchin but when he got rinsed his hair was just curly. I didn't understand it then, but now I realize he got a texturizererplexed

 

[cherryhair123]

Certain people seem to make having a relaxer (or even using heat on natural hair) seem like a sin. I've read one quote that said "you are hurting my soul" in response to someone just using heat on their hair. I wanted to say get a life.
If that's all I had to worry about...

 

[Energee]

Do what you wish to do to your own hair and respect others decisions on what they do with theirs. Live and let live. I think it's great that we have options in this life. If it looks good on you and feels good to you then do it FOR YOU and no one else. I happen to admire women with all types of hair--natural and relaxed. Doesn't matter to me...if you are happy with your hair..so am I. The End.

 

[SparklingFlame]

GIRL! Especially when it's somebody who BC'd two minutes ago just preachin away like they didn't just get a touchup last month.

My bigger pet peeve is that nappy militancy always moves from anti perm to nappier than thou. Twistout = self hate, naw pish twistout = getting the most outta them twists it took 3 hrs to put in.

Oh but no! Then they move on to say that you should use no products that define you curlz. I have even heard one say not to use product at all.

 

[PhonyBaloney500]

I don't think one is better than the other per se... but i do think natural hair is stronger than processed hair. However, better is really subjective. If you relax/texturize ur hair because:
a) u think ur natural hair is too hard too "nappy" (hate dat word)
b) u want to have "good hair"
c) u think u need it

then yea there is a problem with the way u perceive ur self and that needs to be worked out. If its jus because u want a change or jus for a style option then cool do you, but unfortunately some relax for reasons a, b or c and they don't want to admit it. I have encountered many of those IRL so its nothing new.
I'm natural right now becuase when I was relaxed I used to wash my hair the same day as a touch up. Why, u ask? I wanted my hair to puff back up. I used to wwear wash and go;s and curly styles all the time when it clicked that hey my hair does this naturally so why bother? That and a scissor happy stylist who took me from almost APL to a neck length bob when i asked for a "trim". With that said, I do get frustrated with my natural hair and maybe one day I will texlax. I don't see myself going straight; even when I blow out my hair I get bored with it in a day or two. As long as u accept urself and ur hair even if its 4XVIID then fry, dye and lay it to the side

What she said!

 

[SleepyJean]

I personally don't associate my hair styling choices with my degree of "blackness". However, for a very long time natural black hair has been associated with ugliness and unprofessionalism. I definitely uderstand why it can be a touchy subject for many people.

If were are going to talk strictly about what is best for your hair and health then I would say natural. But there are many healthy ladies in here with beautiful relaxed hair.

Ditto! I don't even like the term "blackness." I don't think having relaxed hair makes me any less black. I only relaxed, because my hair is so much easier to work with. Natural styles are cute, but I struggle with my hair in its natural state.

 

[SleepyJean]

Certain people seem to make having a relaxer (or even using heat on natural hair) seem like a sin. I've read one quote that said "you are hurting my soul" in response to someone just using heat on their hair. I wanted to say get a life.
If that's all I had to worry about...

I knew someone like that. We had to stop talking. She was WAY TOO self-righteous.

 

[SparklingFlame]

Certain people seem to make having a relaxer (or even using heat on natural hair) seem like a sin. I've read one quote that said "you are hurting my soul" in response to someone just using heat on their hair. I wanted to say get a life.
If that's all I had to worry about...