Message to single ladies from Pastor Ken: Become a Proverbs 31 woman

Lucia

Well-Known Member
This is interesting...

"Be hidden in something that will require a great man to find you."
"Become a proverbs 31 woman" "you already gave me the trophy I don't need to play the games"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_kkYmKAEG8&feature=related

go to min 4:50 if you want to FF to the point

Proverbs 31:10-31:31

A wife of noble character who can find?
She is worth far more than rubies.

11 Her husband has full confidence in her
and lacks nothing of value.

12 She brings him good, not harm,
all the days of her life.

13 She selects wool and flax
and works with eager hands.

14 She is like the merchant ships,
bringing her food from afar.

15 She gets up while it is still dark;
she provides food for her family
and portions for her servant girls.

16 She considers a field and buys it;
out of her earnings she plants a vineyard.

17 She sets about her work vigorously;
her arms are strong for her tasks.

18 She sees that her trading is profitable,
and her lamp does not go out at night.

19 In her hand she holds the distaff
and grasps the spindle with her fingers.

20 She opens her arms to the poor
and extends her hands to the needy.

21 When it snows, she has no fear for her household;
for all of them are clothed in scarlet.

22 She makes coverings for her bed;
she is clothed in fine linen and purple.

23 Her husband is respected at the city gate,
where he takes his seat among the elders of the land.

24 She makes linen garments and sells them,
and supplies the merchants with sashes.

25 She is clothed with strength and dignity;
she can laugh at the days to come.

26 She speaks with wisdom,
and faithful instruction is on her tongue.

27 She watches over the affairs of her household
and does not eat the bread of idleness.

28 Her children arise and call her blessed;
her husband also, and he praises her:

29 "Many women do noble things,
but you surpass them all."

30 Charm is deceptive, and beauty is fleeting;
but a woman who fears the LORD is to be praised.

31 Give her the reward she has earned,
and let her works bring her praise at the city gate.
 
Uh, I listened to this and there's a lot of non-Biblical stuff being put in a Biblical context... plus, he says "females" a few too many times for my taste.

Also, I don't think that he can say with any authority that if you're doing online dating, for example, that you are basically showing that you're not a woman worth being selected.

He's saying women have to be "hidden" and a man needs to dig to find them. Yeah okay... guess he wants all these single "hidden" women to stay up in his church all day long...

PASS.
 
Uh, I listened to this and there's a lot of non-Biblical stuff being put in a Biblical context... plus, he says "females" a few too many times for my taste.

Also, I don't think that he can say with any authority that if you're doing online dating, for example, that you are basically showing that you're not a woman worth being selected.

He's saying women have to be "hidden" and a man needs to dig to find them. Yeah okay... guess he wants all these single "hidden" women to stay up in his church all day long...

PASS.

I hate that! No mature man should be saying it.
 
the Prov. 31 woman was married. an unmarried woman cannot be a Prov. 31 woman until she is married.


But shouldn't the character traits be there before you marry? If you aren't resourceful and wise BEFORE you marry, I don't see how that will change after. :look: I mean, we can all grown and develop...but your character and values are usually pretty set by adulthood.
 
But shouldn't the character traits be there before you marry? If you aren't resourceful and wise BEFORE you marry, I don't see how that will change after. :look: I mean, we can all grown and develop...but your character and values are usually pretty set by adulthood.

You know, I do agree with you that certain character traits should be in a person regardless of marital status and that one can work on those while single.

But, I think that if a pastor is going to be using Biblical examples to make a point, they need to be accurate.

It seems to be a popular theme in some/many Christian singles ministries to tell single women to strive for a certain standard of semi-perfection to "prepare" them for being wives. But as so many actual married women will say, a lot of these traits didn't develop until AFTER they were married and learned how to develop certain skills in conjunction with being a wife.

This practice of telling single women about what they need to do and be in order to get married is tired. If you want to be married, there are some things that you can't develop unless you are actually in a marriage.

Pointing out that the Proverbs 31 woman was married is actually very relevant because I doubt that Mrs. Proverbs 31 could have done all that she did without the support of a loving husband or developed those skills without having honed a spirit of self-sacrifice required to be a good wife and mother.

You can't practice being a married woman while you're single.
 
I wanna be a Proverbs 31 woman!!

Let's break it down:

She has a rich husband

23 Her husband is respected at the city gate,
where he takes his seat among the elders of the land.

She has a STAFF (maids, personal assistant, and possible chef)

15 She gets up while it is still dark;
she provides food for her family
and portions for her servant girls.

She gets to shop for the BEST clothes (remember her husband is rich!)

21 When it snows, she has no fear for her household;
for all of them are clothed in scarlet.
22 She makes coverings for her bed;
she is clothed in fine linen and purple.

Her husband adores her and makes sure that she is WELL taken care of
!
11 Her husband has full confidence in her
and lacks nothing of value.

So, if the husband is on point, one can't help but be a Proverbs 31 woman

Just my .02
 
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I did find the some of that hiding extreme, but he did have a point about picking up the club, bar guy and trying to turn that man-hoe into a husband esp if he's not ready for that kind of commitment and he's not on his game.
I don't think he focused on the men enough either and didn't detail what work they should be doing on themselves and what their responsibilities are as good chritian men and future husbands, again blah, blah, blah women need to do this and that, but he doesn't approach self-improvement for women all that well. I think Shanel "stilletos in the kitchen" on youtube has better tips for that.
Taz, 1star, and Bunny thanks for your posts, makes sense, I didn't even catch that proverbs woman was already married.
 
on top of everything else, i am mad this pastor said that the best a woman has to offer is her physical intimacy... really, pastor? uhm ok
 
I think everyone has made interesting points in this thread. Personally, I think being the Proverbs 31 woman takes a certain amount of maturity and regardless of whether or not someone is married, they will live up to most of the description or they won't. Some of her characteristics could be cultivated, yet it would take an enormous amount of self-discipline and breaking old habits for some folks.

I don't agree with someone being a Proverbs 31 woman just because they are married to a man who is on point. How many people have presented such a facade and let their real self come out after the vows have been taken? They might have more of an incentive to become their best self or not. It really depends on the individual.

Why is there so much talk about what women need to work on? What about the women that have developed these traits and are still unmarried? What kind of message is being sent to them, that there's something wrong with them? T.D. Jakes said it best, "Just because you haven't met your King doesn't mean you aren't already a Queen." And there ARE quite a few queens walking about.
 
the Prov. 31 woman was married. an unmarried woman cannot be a Prov. 31 woman until she is married.

From Websters Online Dictionary:

Virute -
1 a : conformity to a standard of right : morality b : a particular moral excellence

Prov. 31:10 begins by saying, "who can find a virtuous woman, for her price is far above rubies..."

As one who is striving to be a Prov. 31 woman, while yet single, I think that we can be Prov 31 women before we are married. She was virtuous before marriage (she displayed qualities as outlined in the definition above), that is how he found her and why he chose her...the attributes described in the passage are indeed what the husband loved about her after they married, for sure; however, she had to display the virtue needed in order to for him to know that she would be "that woman" after they married---I think this is key.

I didn't find any thing in his video to be unbiblical or unethical, maybe someone can expound on what they found to be questionable. I had watched this video before, (I think someone posted it in the Christianity Forum)...
 
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As women, are we supposed to be looking forward to marriage? Am I supposed to be hoping to find a man? I'm serious. Is this normal behavior? Because when I read things like this, it makes no sense to me b/c I don't want to get married and I'm happy as a single entity. Completely happy. Am I abnormal or something????
 
As women, are we supposed to be looking forward to marriage? Am I supposed to be hoping to find a man? I'm serious. Is this normal behavior? Because when I read things like this, it makes no sense to me b/c I don't want to get married and I'm happy as a single entity. Completely happy. Am I abnormal or something????


These messages are for women who want to be married. For those who don't... let it go in one ear and out the other!

A lot of women want to be married, but that doesn't mean everyone does. If you're one who doesn't, then it's all good!
 
There are plenty of accomplished, well-educated, pretty, single ladies walking around who work hard, invest, volunteer and take care of their own home. We hear from them all the time.
 
Bunny77, I've come across several of your postings, and I must say, m'dear, I like the way you think.

Oh, by the way, I'm :rolleyes: at yet another "Christian" ministry that takes it upon itself to educate our half of the human race on what it takes to be a godly/good/esteem-worthy woman. Some churches nowadays are naught more than gender-issue incubators. If it's not about The Virtuous Wife, it's about "Christian headship in marriage," with men as "the head," or women needing to "keep silent in the church' by not pastoring men, or...

Phew, let me go back to reading my Gospel of Christ...remember him? The one in whom there is no Gentile or Jew, Woman or Man, Slave or Free?
 
1 star, the point is not that we have to have a staff, and a wealthy husband. The point, for me anyway, is that whatever he brings to the table (he could be a bus driver), I can make it grow and prosper. As women, we have the power to nurture and develop. Ok, so our combined salaries are $5k a month, how do I take this $5k and grow it, so that our household needs are met, and we are able to put some aside. How did I save and invest my own money as a single woman? Did I spend every dime I made trying to stay current on the latest fashion, cars, etc.? Or, was I wise with my money?

It is not about the Prov. 31 woman's household, try to get past that to see the wisdom in how she ran her household. Each one of us, regardless of how big or how small our paychecks and our husband's paychecks, are going to need virtue and wisdom in dealing in our homes. Truly, woman are so vital in growing a man to his fullest potential in alot of instances. Think how many men start out struggling, but they have good wives who nurtured that household and really helped him take care of finances, and then their family grew "wealthy" (I use wealthy as a relative term here, doesn't mean that they are ballin like lifestyle of the rich and famous). I know people like this in my own life...

There is a scripture in Proverbs that reads, "Wisdom is the principle thing; in all your getting, get understanding."
 
1 star, the point is not that we have to have a staff, and a wealthy husband. The point, for me anyway, is that whatever he brings to the table (he could be a bus driver), I can make it grow and prosper. As women, we have the power to nurture and develop. Ok, so our combined salaries are $5k a month, how do I take this $5k and grow it, so that our household needs are met, and we are able to put some aside. How did I save and invest my own money as a single woman? Did I spend every dime I made trying to stay current on the latest fashion, cars, etc.? Or, was I wise with my money?

It is not about the Prov. 31 woman's household, try to get past that to see the wisdom in how she ran her household. Each one of us, regardless of how big or how small our paychecks and our husband's paychecks, are going to need virtue and wisdom in dealing in our homes. Truly, woman are so vital in growing a man to his fullest potential in alot of instances. Think how many men start out struggling, but they have good wives who nurtured that household and really helped him take care of finances, and then their family grew "wealthy" (I use wealthy as a relative term here, doesn't mean that they are ballin like lifestyle of the rich and famous). I know people like this in my own life...

There is a scripture in Proverbs that reads, "Wisdom is the principle thing; in all your getting, get understanding."
This describes my relationship! DH was definitely a diamond in the rough. I guided, gave some love nudges (and couple of shoves) in the direction that I KNEW that he should go. My husband resisted at times but I persisted. He finally conceded that I was right (and I do not throw it in his face).

Now I definitely have the husband in Proverbs 31 in EVERY way. Now, I can be free to be the Proverbs 31 woman. I couldn't be happier and neither could he.

The reason why I think most pastors push this on women is for two reasons:

1) The majority of parishioners are women.
2) Many men (not all) look for an excuse not to go to church. Any message like this to men would give them that reason.
 
Taz, thanks for helping to illustrate my point. I am still struggling with why some Sista's feel that this message is being "pushed" on them (or pushed on women in the Church in general), 'cause really, I see a lot of sisters out here that truly believe that a man is supposed to do and be whatever she wants him to do or be FOR HER, and all she has to do is sit back and reap the benefits of "having a man.":ohwell: Some women are still out here thinking, "I want a rich man" or "I want a man with high standing in the community..." but they are not interested in seeing the potential in a man. Heck, wasn't President Obama sill in law school when he stepped to Michelle (who was a practicing lawyer for a major firm in Chicago at that time...)? She had to see the potential in where he was going. She had the wisdom not to write him off as a "broke ***" law school student...

The pastor in the video started off by saying that he is simply addressing women that came to him asking questions about why they are still single, we don't know each case, so we can only assume that he addresses issues that he found in each indidual. Hey, if you are together and this message does not apply to you, so be it. I feel that a lot of people (men and women) need to understand what a good woman is to a good man. And certainly, you have to be a good woman before you can be a good wife.

Taz, thanks again, because you have lived this first hand and you prove every day that a Proverbs 31 woman does not have to be "rich in wealth" per se, only "rich in WISDOM."
 
You know, I do agree with you that certain character traits should be in a person regardless of marital status and that one can work on those while single.

But, I think that if a pastor is going to be using Biblical examples to make a point, they need to be accurate.

It seems to be a popular theme in some/many Christian singles ministries to tell single women to strive for a certain standard of semi-perfection to "prepare" them for being wives. But as so many actual married women will say, a lot of these traits didn't develop until AFTER they were married and learned how to develop certain skills in conjunction with being a wife.

This practice of telling single women about what they need to do and be in order to get married is tired. If you want to be married, there are some things that you can't develop unless you are actually in a marriage.

Pointing out that the Proverbs 31 woman was married is actually very relevant because I doubt that Mrs. Proverbs 31 could have done all that she did without the support of a loving husband or developed those skills without having honed a spirit of self-sacrifice required to be a good wife and mother.

You can't practice being a married woman while you're single.

Such a good point!!! Sometimes I totally let myself fall into the trap of "I'd better prepare myself to be good enough for marriage" but really it is just a distraction from being sad about the whole thing. Thanks for telling the truth!
 
Taz, thanks for helping to illustrate my point. I am still struggling with why some Sista's feel that this message is being "pushed" on them (or pushed on women in the Church in general), 'cause really, I see a lot of sisters out here that truly believe that a man is supposed to do and be whatever she wants him to do or be FOR HER, and all she has to do is sit back and reap the benefits of "having a man.":ohwell: Some women are still out here thinking, "I want a rich man" or "I want a man with high standing in the community..." but they are not interested in seeing the potential in a man. Heck, wasn't President Obama sill in law school when he stepped to Michelle (who was a practicing lawyer for a major firm in Chicago at that time...)? She had to see the potential in where he was going. She had the wisdom not to write him off as a "broke ***" law school student...

I don't understand why people use the Michelle Obama situation in the "potential" argument. Michelle herself will tell you all the partners were abuzz at the new wunderkind Barack Obama coming to firm. He was the editor of the Harvard Law Review. Everyone knew he would be successful.

Even without all the accolades, just garnering an offer from such a prestigious firm is a solid indicator of potential success. It's not like she was taking some huge risk on a "joe schmoe". She's even said she was sick of everyone fawning over him before he even started at the firm.

I think women feel it's pushed on them to get it together while men sit in judgment (while not having it together). That, plus many women are already on point. So they would expect any male counterpart to be the same. I understand complementing the man, but many women would be turned off by a man who was indecisive or didn't handle money well -even if she could help him in these areas.
 
I don't understand why people use the Michelle Obama situation in the "potential" argument. Michelle herself will tell you all the partners were abuzz at the new wunderkind Barack Obama coming to firm. He was the editor of the Harvard Law Review. Everyone knew he would be successful.

Even without all the accolades, just garnering an offer from such a prestigious firm is a solid indicator of potential success. It's not like she was taking some huge risk on a "joe schmoe". She's even said she was sick of everyone fawning over him before he even started at the firm.

I think women feel it's pushed on them to get it together while men sit in judgment (while not having it together). That, plus many women are already on point. So they would expect any male counterpart to be the same. I understand complementing the man, but many women would be turned off by a man who was indecisive or didn't handle money well -even if she could help him in these areas.

Thank you.

Seriously, if I hear one more person using the "Barack Obama was a broke law student," argument, I will scream.

How many black women are even MEETING black Harvard Law School students to have the chance to see what they might be like? And black Harvard Law students with as much hype as Obama?

I'd love to see this universe where black male law students, especially in the Ivy League, are staying home at night and can't get dates because black women are writing them off... please show me a black male law student at ANY university who doesn't have black women on his jock 24-7 and THEN we can talk about black women overlooking "potential."

Please... let it go y'all.
 
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Since I am the person that used the Barack/Michelle example, I will just say this...yeah, he went to Harvard; yes he was President of the Harvard Law Review; sure, he had buzz, but ultimately Michelle had to see more than just hype, she had to see his potential as HER HUSBAND AND HER PROVIDER...(at the point that they met, she had accomplished more than he had, and she could have had her pick of all of the young, black ivy league hot shots!), how many of these same hotshot guys out here are total jerks and dog their families due to their hubris over their educational and professional gain? To say that Obama is an exeption does not exuse him from being a man, and we know that just because a man displays some exceptional qualities still does not make him a great catch. I maintain that it takes wisdom to see the true potential in a man, and this comes through PREPARATION and WISDOM.

Listen, I made my point. We prepare for everything else in life. Ya'll didnt skip from PreK to college, I suspect. Oh wait, that is another one of those analogies that Bunny may scream at. :perplexed I find it utterly ridiculous that grown women would think that they would not need to be prepared for marriage as well. Maybe if we had better preparation for both parties entering into marriage, the divorce rate wouldn't be what it is...even in the Church. :rolleyes: There is a level of maturity and virtue needed to maintain and sustain marriages. And I believe it is best to know that BEFORE you get in it.

You all have at it. I am done.

I don't understand why people use the Michelle Obama situation in the "potential" argument. Michelle herself will tell you all the partners were abuzz at the new wunderkind Barack Obama coming to firm. He was the editor of the Harvard Law Review. Everyone knew he would be successful.

Even without all the accolades, just garnering an offer from such a prestigious firm is a solid indicator of potential success. It's not like she was taking some huge risk on a "joe schmoe". She's even said she was sick of everyone fawning over him before he even started at the firm.

I think women feel it's pushed on them to get it together while men sit in judgment (while not having it together). That, plus many women are already on point. So they would expect any male counterpart to be the same. I understand complementing the man, but many women would be turned off by a man who was indecisive or didn't handle money well -even if she could help him in these areas.
 
Listen, I made my point. We prepare for everything else in life. Ya'll didnt skip from PreK to college, I suspect. Oh wait, that is another one of those analogies that Bunny may scream at. :perplexed I find it utterly ridiculous that grown women would think that they would not need to be prepared for marriage as well. Maybe if we had better preparation for both parties entering into marriage, the divorce rate wouldn't be what it is...even in the Church. :rolleyes: There is a level of maturity and virtue needed to maintain and sustain marriages. And I believe it is best to know that BEFORE you get in it.

You all have at it. I am done.

I think I get your point. I think, in a way, we are saying something similar.

Yes, we can prepare for marriage - just by living our lives. Being educated financially, career-wise, house-keeping etc. But then there are some things that we can only learn once actually in marriage that we really can't prepare for. (Some women are also married before they even get to be financially secure or make a career and even have their own home and they do just fine, too.)

Can we all hug now?? :look:
 
I just wonder how much "preparation" our grandmothers, great grandmothers, etc., who got married at 19, 20, 21 had before they got married... seems like some young man they knew growing up, met in church or school, etc., just asked them to marry them and they did.

Maybe because too, they lived in a society where it was expected for men to marry the women that they fancied, and not wait until they were close to 40 to do so... maybe that's the reason why so many women find themselves single longer than expected... but male pastors don't wanna go there... cause they'd have to call out some men too...

Nah, better to tell the women what they keep needing to do "in the meantime."
 
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